Perspective...

First topic message reminder :

Theres a lot of dribble being written about a number of players selected to tour, I think it's about time we take the criticisms with a hint of realism...

Stevens - I can understand why people dislike him, his history isn't great, but he is tearing the AP apart, contributing to Sarries euro campaign, and is a nicely rounded prop. He is a third choice option, and IMHO best of a bad bunch with the players he competed with.

Hartley - Again isn't a nice character, has discipline issues, and hasn't offered much to the England cause this year, but IMHO he is a better rounded player than Youngs, and if I had to pick one of the English boys he would be mine!

Jenkins - Yes he doesn't get in over Sheridan, but the French game is strength and scrum based, his Wales form is patchy, but if you really think about it he is played unfit and only ever gets stronger, as he looked excellent in the final games of the AI's and 6N, fitness is his issue due to no club rugby being played, but he is the most talented prop in the Isles by a mile and covers the ground as well as any too.

Lydiate - I can't argue this guys case, although a very good player he just hasn't played enough and done anything to warrant travel, but Gats knows him and like what he offers.

Croft - Injury hit again, but we all know what Croft can offer, especially if we play an open running game, I GUARENTEE HE WILL SCORE TRIES, but a test spot is very far off.

Phillips - Well Wales aren't the same team without him, and they are double champs now so... For his weaknesses he is a weapon to have in the arsenal!!

Farell - No justification needed IMHO, he has been accused of bottling it but when did this happen, he missed 2/3 kicks v Wales when his pack were destroyed, and nothing outside him offered any threat, and Toulon were in control, did he miss a kick then!! He has led his club to a euro semi, and England to a GS decider, he has been excellent and deserves his place!!!

Aside from Lydiate and Tom Youngs I think the squad has a good look to it, and it's a third 10 option away from being what most of us wanted, if not expected, so I am pretty happy.

When the inevitable injuries come the likes of...

Grant
Best
Owens
Launchbury
Brown
Robshaw
Laidlaw
Biggar
Hook
Madigan
Visser

Will all substitute in nicely!!

Go LIONS!!!!

belovedfrosties wrote:I remember a while back someone took the time to go through Warburtons highlights on youtube of many of his turnovers to see how often it was that Lydiate that set them up, he found one example.

I also find it amusing how Worseley was often derided for being one dimensional and average because all he could do is tackle. Lydiate does the same and is hailed as the best 6 in the NH and world class. I like lydiate as a player and as a person, but he is a solid player and no more. Before the stats were brought up he was a tackle machine, now that that isn't the case this has changed to "the type" of tackles he makes. The goalposts keep getting moved to suit his supporters when all evidence available points him out to being a decent tackler and nothing more.

Sorry, but I'm with Rory on this.

ps. don't get me started on how he won player of the tournament last year, that was a joke.

The goal posts are not moving the analysis has clearly revealed that whilst he is not top tackler in maybe quantity he is more than tops with quality, and just because his biggest weapon is his top draw tackling doesn't mean he isn't top drawer in the contact area, scrum, maul and most important the ruck because he most certainly is. The media in the main have selected him that's the Western Mail (you would expect that as it is a welsh paper), but also The Telegraph and The Mail have chosen him both the pundits and readers

Its now transparent what you are trying to do now
"t1t for tat" and then furthering it by suggesting he is "solid and no more" is quite laughable and ends this as a sensible discussion

I wonder whether Lydaite was considered an out and out 6 and was included on this basis. Could you argue that SOB is sort of a 6.5 as he plays the 7 role too? Kelly Brown seems to play at 7 a lot too - could he be considered more of a 6.5 too? Not sure where that leaves Robshaw as he seems to be more of a traditional 6 I think, but maybe that's why they went for Lydiate as a specialist 6???

I think the lydiate of last year would have been a completely no controversial pick. the controversy comes in that he was picked over Brown ( and others) despite being of unproven fitness and form while Brown is in fantastic form

I agree TJ, I didn't think he should travel either on the basis of lack of recent games. So I'm trying to understand the decision process - was he regarded as more of an out and out 6, and maybe that's what Gatland wanted, and therefore the risk was deemed worthy?

flyhalffactory wrote:

t1000advancedprototype wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I can see why he is included though. Gatland picked the team..

I would suggest ignoring anything T1000 says on here mostly its embarrassing and created to wind us up

"it's"

Proves my point

Try to learn English before insulting people. Makes you look as bad as the people that you're trying to degrade.

"its" in that sentence is short for "it is" thus has a missing letter thus should have an apostrophe - I think

Griff wrote:I agree TJ, I didn't think he should travel either on the basis of lack of recent games. So I'm trying to understand the decision process - was he regarded as more of an out and out 6, and maybe that's what Gatland wanted, and therefore the risk was deemed worthy?

I think its purely that Gatland knows and likes him and in the 50 / 50 decision making process has gone with the people he knows, likes and is comfortable with.

As i said in an earlier post - it looks like a major blunder - but if lydiate plays 3 tests and plays well Gatland will look to be a genius

Lydiate is amazing.
Bowe is amazing.
POC is lions through and through.

There are plenty of form players on tour too.

The selections make sense and are more than worth the risk.

flyhalffactory wrote:

belovedfrosties wrote:I remember a while back someone took the time to go through Warburtons highlights on youtube of many of his turnovers to see how often it was that Lydiate that set them up, he found one example.

I also find it amusing how Worseley was often derided for being one dimensional and average because all he could do is tackle. Lydiate does the same and is hailed as the best 6 in the NH and world class. I like lydiate as a player and as a person, but he is a solid player and no more. Before the stats were brought up he was a tackle machine, now that that isn't the case this has changed to "the type" of tackles he makes. The goalposts keep getting moved to suit his supporters when all evidence available points him out to being a decent tackler and nothing more.

Sorry, but I'm with Rory on this.

ps. don't get me started on how he won player of the tournament last year, that was a joke.

The goal posts are not moving the analysis has clearly revealed that whilst he is not top tackler in maybe quantity he is more than tops with quality, and just because his biggest weapon is his top draw tackling doesn't mean he isn't top drawer in the contact area, scrum, maul and most important the ruck because he most certainly is. The media in the main have selected him that's the Western Mail (you would expect that as it is a welsh paper), but also The Telegraph and The Mail have chosen him both the pundits and readers

Its now transparent what you are trying to do now
"t1t for tat" and then furthering it by suggesting he is "solid and no more" is quite laughable and ends this as a sensible discussion

I honestly have no idea what you're referring to with those last 2 lines.

The analysis hasn't changed or moved a bit, he was touted as being a tackle machine, this isn't the case so that has now moved to the quality of his tackles and the other fallacy of his tackles being so good it allows for others to make easy turnovers, something else that has been proved false.

I rated Lydiate in the 2012 6N. Thought he was a solid test 6 but lacking the options someone like Ferris, SOB, Croft and even robshaw if he played there, the whole media hype surrounding him (led by Jiffy, Guscott and a plethora of unnecessary super slo mo replays of any tackle he made) have made this more of a deal to me than it should be. What annoys me more though, is that so many people have been taken in by it.

And because you don't rate him it must be true....

Griff wrote:And because you don't rate him it must be true....

Hmmm, Griff you are on to something.

What always surprises me is the amount of English rugby fans who post Lions tour have a massive appreciation for non-English players that pre tour they thought should not have been selected, generally for someone that receives regular comment on Sky Sports Rugby Club program.

I remember comments similar to those appearing now on Lydiate, Warburton, etc etc etc regarding Bleddyn Williams, Mervyn Davies, Barry John, JJ Williams, Dai Young, Robert Jones, Neil Jenkins, Scott Gibbs (he ousted England Captain and touted lions captain Will Carling on tour in '93), Rob Howley all of whom proved their critics wrong and earned huge praise from them post tour.

It is the way these tour announcements always go.

In 1971, 16 Welshman toured NZ, we were on the back of retaining the championship in consecutive seasons and we beat the All Blacks.

Good omen in my opinion.

It's not just me Griff, and i do rate him, he's just not as good as everyone says he is.

Can you remember that during the 2012 6N we had a poll on here for player of the tournament? Can you remember who was winning that poll until the last 2 games when the Lydiate campaign began on BBC? Gray and Ferris were streets ahead of everyone, Lydiate wasn't even an option on the poll for christs sake! Then all of a sudden everyone started raving about how great Lydiate was, when no-one had thought that for the previous 3 games, thats not a coincidence.

Maes, i am not anti welsh i want the lions to succeed and am pretty happy with all the selections, my only bug bears being Lydiate (someone who has barely played in the last year), Stevens (just wtf) and youngs (his lineout is poor and there are better options).

I have watched Lydiate play a fair amount, I hope he proves me wrong, but i am yet to see anything that would suggest this.

belovedfrosties wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

belovedfrosties wrote:I remember a while back someone took the time to go through Warburtons highlights on youtube of many of his turnovers to see how often it was that Lydiate that set them up, he found one example.

I also find it amusing how Worseley was often derided for being one dimensional and average because all he could do is tackle. Lydiate does the same and is hailed as the best 6 in the NH and world class. I like lydiate as a player and as a person, but he is a solid player and no more. Before the stats were brought up he was a tackle machine, now that that isn't the case this has changed to "the type" of tackles he makes. The goalposts keep getting moved to suit his supporters when all evidence available points him out to being a decent tackler and nothing more.

Sorry, but I'm with Rory on this.

ps. don't get me started on how he won player of the tournament last year, that was a joke.

The goal posts are not moving the analysis has clearly revealed that whilst he is not top tackler in maybe quantity he is more than tops with quality, and just because his biggest weapon is his top draw tackling doesn't mean he isn't top drawer in the contact area, scrum, maul and most important the ruck because he most certainly is. The media in the main have selected him that's the Western Mail (you would expect that as it is a welsh paper), but also The Telegraph and The Mail have chosen him both the pundits and readers

Its now transparent what you are trying to do now
"t1t for tat" and then furthering it by suggesting he is "solid and no more" is quite laughable and ends this as a sensible discussion

I honestly have no idea what you're referring to with those last 2 lines.

The analysis hasn't changed or moved a bit, he was touted as being a tackle machine, this isn't the case so that has now moved to the quality of his tackles and the other fallacy of his tackles being so good it allows for others to make easy turnovers, something else that has been proved false.

I rated Lydiate in the 2012 6N. Thought he was a solid test 6 but lacking the options someone like Ferris, SOB, Croft and even robshaw if he played there, the whole media hype surrounding him (led by Jiffy, Guscott and a plethora of unnecessary super slo mo replays of any tackle he made) have made this more of a deal to me than it should be. What annoys me more though, is that so many people have been taken in by it.

The last two lines are
Your reference to a previous England player been totally demonised as a one trick pony and Lydiate been the same type of player (in your eyes) is hailed as a potential god........... boo hoo its just not fair
And then you qualify your stomping of your feet by stating that he is "solid at best" which considering he broke his neck, ruptured knee ligaments. and broke his ankle his performances in-between those injuries have been damn awesome.

The goal posts haven't changed as Lydiate is a tackle machine but just to qualify that generic term by agreeing that he didn't top the quantity of tackles. As far as you stating its a fallacy that he tackles low and hard, nullifying the threat of the opposing players, making them go to ground and rarely is the back up of Warbs or Toby not their to turn over the ball.

His ability and potential thankfully haven't gone unnoticed by a lot of pundits, readers of tabloids and the resulting polls, and most importantly the Lions as an organisation

belovedfrosties wrote:It's not just me Griff, and i do rate him, he's just not as good as everyone says he is.

Can you remember that during the 2012 6N we had a poll on here for player of the tournament? Can you remember who was winning that poll until the last 2 games when the Lydiate campaign began on BBC? Gray and Ferris were streets ahead of everyone, Lydiate wasn't even an option on the poll for christs sake! Then all of a sudden everyone started raving about how great Lydiate was, when no-one had thought that for the previous 3 games, thats not a coincidence.

Maes, i am not anti welsh i want the lions to succeed and am pretty happy with all the selections, my only bug bears being Lydiate (someone who has barely played in the last year), Stevens (just wtf) and youngs (his lineout is poor and there are better options).

I have watched Lydiate play a fair amount, I hope he proves me wrong, but i am yet to see anything that would suggest this.

I would hope you are not "Anti" any nation mate...!!!!! Not the type of attitude anyone wants to see.

My point was far more that when fans see a player playing for a team they support they often appreciate that player far more in hindsight.

In Wales Ireland and Scotland we have far more exposure to other nations players as we play in a multi-nationality league unlike the AP in England where you only play foreign teams at International and European level. This is highly reflected by your main rugby shows.

Lydiate divides a lot of opinion outside of Wales. It does feel as if he is a little overrated by Jiffy et al. In my personal opinion he was a lot better back when he was bursting onto the scene in 2010, and he was especially good at ball carrying.

He wasn't too bad in the 6 Nations of 2012 Rog

Nope - but a dozen others were better in 2013. thats the issue. If it wa a position where we didn't have a lot of choice then fair enough but given the quality of the guys that missed out........................

Yeah I can understand the reasoning TJ, However, Lydiate and Bowe for me are there because the coaches know what they are capable of and in this situation you have to take your best players as opposed to those that have played reasobaly well this year

Competition for the back-row was immense, so I suppose Gats just went with what he knows.Hence Croft, a test player from 2009. Not so much mention for Ryan Jones, probably more worthy of a place over a few guys, not just Lydiate...

HOw is gambling on a half fit Lydiate and Croft any sense over Brown - in the form of his life?

TJ wrote:HOw is gambling on a half fit Lydiate and Croft any sense over Brown - in the form of his life?

Both Lydiate and croft have an X factor

100%beefy wrote:

TJ wrote:HOw is gambling on a half fit Lydiate and Croft any sense over Brown - in the form of his life?

Both Lydiate and croft have an X factor

They do? Can you pls explain?

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

100%beefy wrote:

TJ wrote:HOw is gambling on a half fit Lydiate and Croft any sense over Brown - in the form of his life?

Both Lydiate and croft have an X factor

They do? Can you pls explain?

no that's the whole point of the x factor, they just have it and brown doesn't

100%beefy wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

100%beefy wrote:

TJ wrote:HOw is gambling on a half fit Lydiate and Croft any sense over Brown - in the form of his life?

Both Lydiate and croft have an X factor

They do? Can you pls explain?

no that's the whole point of the x factor, they just have it and brown doesn't

How fortunate, an unexplainable X factor!!!

Lydiate and Croft have been taken as specialists, 2 clearly current lesser players to Robshaw and Brown but who could do specific jobs better.

thebluesmancometh wrote:

100%beefy wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

100%beefy wrote:

TJ wrote:HOw is gambling on a half fit Lydiate and Croft any sense over Brown - in the form of his life?

Both Lydiate and croft have an X factor

They do? Can you pls explain?

no that's the whole point of the x factor, they just have it and brown doesn't

How fortunate, an unexplainable X factor!!!

Lydiate and Croft have been taken as specialists, 2 clearly current lesser players to Robshaw and Brown but who could do specific jobs better.

robshaw just lead his team to ignominious failure or have we forgotten the latest 6 nations, brown....hardly makes the press except that he is highly regarded by scots....lydiate is devastating at slowing attacks around the breakdown and croft at being a lion

100%beefy wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

100%beefy wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

100%beefy wrote:

TJ wrote:HOw is gambling on a half fit Lydiate and Croft any sense over Brown - in the form of his life?

Both Lydiate and croft have an X factor

They do? Can you pls explain?

no that's the whole point of the x factor, they just have it and brown doesn't

How fortunate, an unexplainable X factor!!!

Lydiate and Croft have been taken as specialists, 2 clearly current lesser players to Robshaw and Brown but who could do specific jobs better.

robshaw just lead his team to ignominious failure or have we forgotten the latest 6 nations, brown....hardly makes the press except that he is highly regarded by scots....lydiate is devastating at slowing attacks around the breakdown and croft at being a lion

So let me get this straight, Englands season having beaten the All blacks, and losing in 1 game in the 6N and ending on the same points as Wales is ignominious failure, and despite being the standout backrower/player in the tournament at the end of round 5 he failed???

Also Brown, who helped the Scots to their best finish for years, in one of the best back row combinations in the tournament, not to mention helping Scots to beat Australia on their last 2 attempts and being outstanding in his HC semi final team is only regarded highly by the Scots??

Beefy you slay me! What exactly has Lydiate done this season for club or country? Enlighten us!

Can't...and didn't say it was right but Robshaw and Brown are casualties of war. So is Wood, any other year they might have gone but none have the inexplicable X factor. Btw Robshaw did lead his team to ignominious failure. Had they won he was a shoo in, even perhaps as Capt...but on the big occassion his side got tonked...to the victor the spoils but by the same token in defeat skippers and coaches pay the price

100%beefy wrote:Can't...and didn't say it was right but Robshaw and Brown are casualties of war. So is Wood, any other year they might have gone but none have the inexplicable X factor. Btw Robshaw did lead his team to ignominious failure. Had they won he was a shoo in, even perhaps as Capt...but on the big occassion his side got tonked...to the victor the spoils but by the same token in defeat skippers and coaches pay the price

Like Farell, his defencive system worked well V Wales didn't it?

And do you really think Robshaw couldve done much more at the scrum (the area where Wales took great confidence) or do you think he couldve done much more at the breakdown (where England were outmuscled due to poor selection)? Or do you think he couldve done more when kicking at goal?

Englands tournament was actually pretty succesfull, they built on the NZ win with a one loss tournament, which Lancaster predicted pre tourny!!

I am still waiting as to find out what X factor Lydiate has shown this season!

100%beefy wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

100%beefy wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

100%beefy wrote:

TJ wrote:HOw is gambling on a half fit Lydiate and Croft any sense over Brown - in the form of his life?

Both Lydiate and croft have an X factor

They do? Can you pls explain?

no that's the whole point of the x factor, they just have it and brown doesn't

How fortunate, an unexplainable X factor!!!

Lydiate and Croft have been taken as specialists, 2 clearly current lesser players to Robshaw and Brown but who could do specific jobs better.

robshaw just lead his team to ignominious failure or have we forgotten the latest 6 nations, brown....hardly makes the press except that he is highly regarded by scots....lydiate is devastating at slowing attacks around the breakdown and croft at being a lion

See, this is the problem right here.

Most rugby fans who watched the 2013 6 nations would have been able to see the contributions Brown made to Scotland in each game he played. He was outstanding, and he was literally everywhere at times. The fact that he "hardly makes the press" doesn't mean anything at all. If you base the abilities of players based on what the press has to say (which is exactly what has happened with Lydiate thanks to Jiffy and his slow motion tackle compilation) then don't be surprised to buy into the extreme hype surrounding certain players.

It is like this; the media makes out that a certain player is fantastic at a certain thing, maybe even giving him a cliche'd nickname, and the rugby world takes notice and actually seems to believe it. This has happened in the past with Mike Ross, who was never going to set the world alight but when he was named a "scrummaging specialist" everyone seemed to believe the hype. He is solid at best however, he was never a destructive scrummager. The same sort of media hype has happened with Lydiate and his game.

thebluesmancometh wrote:

100%beefy wrote:Can't...and didn't say it was right but Robshaw and Brown are casualties of war. So is Wood, any other year they might have gone but none have the inexplicable X factor. Btw Robshaw did lead his team to ignominious failure. Had they won he was a shoo in, even perhaps as Capt...but on the big occassion his side got tonked...to the victor the spoils but by the same token in defeat skippers and coaches pay the price

Like Farell, his defencive system worked well V Wales didn't it?

And do you really think Robshaw couldve done much more at the scrum (the area where Wales took great confidence) or do you think he couldve done much more at the breakdown (where England were outmuscled due to poor selection)? Or do you think he couldve done more when kicking at goal?

Englands tournament was actually pretty succesfull, they built on the NZ win with a one loss tournament, which Lancaster predicted pre tourny!!

I am still waiting as to find out what X factor Lydiate has shown this season!

Yes come on beefy enlighten us what is this x factor the Welsh back-row forwards have got that others haven't

Robshaw "a failure" in the 6Ns!!, Brown not well thought of by anyone outside Scotland , well maybe not to someone like you..... but to most rugby fans he was one of the standout forwards during the 6Ns and most certainly afterwards for SARACENS IN THE AVIVA PREMIERSHIP and was the first choice flanker all season and that includes the Heino Cup SF........... what are you on?

100%beefy wrote:

TJ wrote:HOw is gambling on a half fit Lydiate and Croft any sense over Brown - in the form of his life?

Both Lydiate and croft have an X factor

That's a load of rubbish. It's most likely that Gatland went for what is 'tried & trusted' with him, in what is probably the most competitive positions. So Croft the previous Lions test player, and Lydiate who was Wales' man of the tournament in 2012 get the nod. Brown, Robshaw, O'Mahoney, Jones and Wood are as good as the players who made the squad.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

100%beefy wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

100%beefy wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

100%beefy wrote:

TJ wrote:HOw is gambling on a half fit Lydiate and Croft any sense over Brown - in the form of his life?

Both Lydiate and croft have an X factor

They do? Can you pls explain?

no that's the whole point of the x factor, they just have it and brown doesn't

How fortunate, an unexplainable X factor!!!

Lydiate and Croft have been taken as specialists, 2 clearly current lesser players to Robshaw and Brown but who could do specific jobs better.

robshaw just lead his team to ignominious failure or have we forgotten the latest 6 nations, brown....hardly makes the press except that he is highly regarded by scots....lydiate is devastating at slowing attacks around the breakdown and croft at being a lion

See, this is the problem right here.

Most rugby fans who watched the 2013 6 nations would have been able to see the contributions Brown made to Scotland in each game he played. He was outstanding, and he was literally everywhere at times. The fact that he "hardly makes the press" doesn't mean anything at all. If you base the abilities of players based on what the press has to say (which is exactly what has happened with Lydiate thanks to Jiffy and his slow motion tackle compilation) then don't be surprised to buy into the extreme hype surrounding certain players.

It is like this; the media makes out that a certain player is fantastic at a certain thing, maybe even giving him a cliche'd nickname, and the rugby world takes notice and actually seems to believe it. This has happened in the past with Mike Ross, who was never going to set the world alight but when he was named a "scrummaging specialist" everyone seemed to believe the hype. He is solid at best however, he was never a destructive scrummager. The same sort of media hype has happened with Lydiate and his game.

+1

I was slating Ross for ages when noone would agree, but it is called brand management, and without it we wouldn't have had the history making politicians of recent years!!

Sadly sport has become not just about who is the better player, but who is the more popular player to a viewing public, and who attracts the most attention.

Similarly in recent years Beckham signed for Real Madrid who earnt their millions of investment back within hours of him stepping onto spannish soil, and boosts in ticket sales at most clubs who sign Gavin Henson, reputation = popularity = monetary gains!!!

What am I on?

A plane to oz with lydiate and croft!

100%beefy wrote:What am I on?

A plane to oz with lydiate and croft!

Good you can come buy me a drink after our Dubai stopover...

Look guys, the fact that Welsh back row forwards are going over others seems to be really hard for you to take but the truth is it is hardly a surprise. Yes Lydiate hasn't been busy this year but maybe that is why Gats picked him. He knwos his class and he may come into peak form at test time. croft is a proven lions with a set of skills no other back row forward can offer. We know Gats will take a chance on some players as he did with Gethin at RWC. It seems to me that there is still a massive divide in support from supporters of Brown and Robshaw who are starting to polarise support in terms of national origin when really you should all get on board in your red shirts for the big push. (btw the Welsh shirt will do, it's pretty red)

100%beefy wrote:Look guys, the fact that Welsh back row forwards are going over others seems to be really hard for you to take but the truth is it is hardly a surprise. Yes Lydiate hasn't been busy this year but maybe that is why Gats picked him. He knwos his class and he may come into peak form at test time. croft is a proven lions with a set of skills no other back row forward can offer. We know Gats will take a chance on some players as he did with Gethin at RWC. It seems to me that there is still a massive divide in support from supporters of Brown and Robshaw who are starting to polarise support in terms of national origin when really you should all get on board in your red shirts for the big push. (btw the Welsh shirt will do, it's pretty red)

Are you claiming my national bias is effecting my opinion on Robshaw being a better option than Lydiate?

thebluesmancometh wrote:

100%beefy wrote:Look guys, the fact that Welsh back row forwards are going over others seems to be really hard for you to take but the truth is it is hardly a surprise. Yes Lydiate hasn't been busy this year but maybe that is why Gats picked him. He knwos his class and he may come into peak form at test time. croft is a proven lions with a set of skills no other back row forward can offer. We know Gats will take a chance on some players as he did with Gethin at RWC. It seems to me that there is still a massive divide in support from supporters of Brown and Robshaw who are starting to polarise support in terms of national origin when really you should all get on board in your red shirts for the big push. (btw the Welsh shirt will do, it's pretty red)

Are you claiming my national bias is effecting my opinion on Robshaw being a better option than Lydiate?

how very dare you, would never do such a thing

100%beefy wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

100%beefy wrote:Look guys, the fact that Welsh back row forwards are going over others seems to be really hard for you to take but the truth is it is hardly a surprise. Yes Lydiate hasn't been busy this year but maybe that is why Gats picked him. He knwos his class and he may come into peak form at test time. croft is a proven lions with a set of skills no other back row forward can offer. We know Gats will take a chance on some players as he did with Gethin at RWC. It seems to me that there is still a massive divide in support from supporters of Brown and Robshaw who are starting to polarise support in terms of national origin when really you should all get on board in your red shirts for the big push. (btw the Welsh shirt will do, it's pretty red)

Are you claiming my national bias is effecting my opinion on Robshaw being a better option than Lydiate?

how very dare you, would never do such a thing

Good because as a welshman and one whos living in Newport I can tell you Robshaw and Brown are far more deserving of travelling, not to mention better options!

If i lived in Newport no doubt i would feel the same way, thankfully i do not.

Of course what you think about who deserves to travel is about as important as what i think. Gatland has made his choices, time to get behind them. Robshaw ofers nothing that Lydiate doesn't and lydiate is much more impressive at slowing the ball. Robshaw is a losing capt, who lead a side to defeat in the world's most celebrated rugby tournament. Brown is Scotland Captain. i also think too many Capts spoil the broth and that also may have contributed to their ommission

100%beefy wrote:If i lived in Newport no doubt i would feel the same way, thankfully i do not.

Of course what you think about who deserves to travel is about as important as what i think. Gatland has made his choices, time to get behind them. Robshaw ofers nothing that Lydiate doesn't and lydiate is much more impressive at slowing the ball. Robshaw is a losing capt, who lead a side to a defeat in the world's most celebrated rugby tournament. Brown is Scotland Captain. i also think too many Capts spoil the broth and that also may have contributed to their ommission

Fixed that for you

thebluesmancometh wrote:

100%beefy wrote:If i lived in Newport no doubt i would feel the same way, thankfully i do not.

Of course what you think about who deserves to travel is about as important as what i think. Gatland has made his choices, time to get behind them. Robshaw ofers nothing that Lydiate doesn't and lydiate is much more impressive at slowing the ball. Robshaw is a losing capt, who lead a side to a defeat in the world's most celebrated rugby tournament. Brown is Scotland Captain. i also think too many Capts spoil the broth and that also may have contributed to their ommission

Fixed that for you

no bluesam you didn't. He lead his side to defeat in the tournament. as much as the game. How short term people's memories are.....30-3 England were whipped. Gone went the Slam, gone went even the 6 Nations, the Triple Crown. YET AGAIN. I would be the first to say that had they won he shoudl be on tour as a leader who clearly stands up on the big occassion but they didn't and he shouldn't

Gatland has picked too many personal favourites to win the objective selection argument, so it is natural that some fans find it hard to get over the injustice.

? injustice?

Wtf....do we need to have a revision lesson about 2005. Who thinks selection of touring players is 'objective'...of course it isn't. Ever been on tour? Its awesome but can be hell if the personnel are wrong. 1. Wales justifiably make up the main group of players. 2 Gatland has his favourites....so what of course he does, why shouldn'T he, that is what his role is, to form a team in short order.

A coach's selection is subjective by definition

Well there are two reasons why there are more Welsh.

1. They won the Six Nations and recent form counts.
2. Gatland knows the players and a coach select players he believes in and whose ability he trusts.

It is natural for coaches to select on that basis.

Biltong wrote:Well there are two reasons why there are more Welsh.

1. They won the Six Nations and recent form counts.
2. Gatland knows the players and a coach select players he believes in and whose ability he trusts.

It is natural for coaches to select on that basis.

Biltong mate, do you define recent form as winning a NH tournament in a cold Feb/Mar or playing well in end of April. Is it not better to select players e.g. Brown playing consistently well right up to the HC semi final and maybe in the case of Tips been outplayed by Warbs (Blues v Os) and most definitely by Barclay (Glasgow v Os). Gatland did state that he would assess players by 6Ns and league and HC form

flyhalffactory wrote:

Biltong wrote:Well there are two reasons why there are more Welsh.

1. They won the Six Nations and recent form counts.
2. Gatland knows the players and a coach select players he believes in and whose ability he trusts.

It is natural for coaches to select on that basis.

Biltong mate, do you define recent form as winning a NH tournament in a cold Feb/Mar or playing well in end of April. Is it not better to select players e.g. Brown playing consistently well right up to the HC semi final and maybe in the case of Tips been outplayed by Warbs (Blues v Os) and most definitely by Barclay (Glasgow v Os). Gatland did state that he would assess players by 6Ns and league and HC form

Do you ever post without referring to Brown....are you his granny?

100%beefy wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

Biltong wrote:Well there are two reasons why there are more Welsh.

1. They won the Six Nations and recent form counts.
2. Gatland knows the players and a coach select players he believes in and whose ability he trusts.

It is natural for coaches to select on that basis.

Biltong mate, do you define recent form as winning a NH tournament in a cold Feb/Mar or playing well in end of April. Is it not better to select players e.g. Brown playing consistently well right up to the HC semi final and maybe in the case of Tips been outplayed by Warbs (Blues v Os) and most definitely by Barclay (Glasgow v Os). Gatland did state that he would assess players by 6Ns and league and HC form

Do you ever post without referring to Brown....are you his granny?

Beefy fair play to you............ now not only one liners but now immature one liners............ stand up the real beefy for all to see

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

100%beefy wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

100%beefy wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

100%beefy wrote:

TJ wrote:HOw is gambling on a half fit Lydiate and Croft any sense over Brown - in the form of his life?

Both Lydiate and croft have an X factor

They do? Can you pls explain?

no that's the whole point of the x factor, they just have it and brown doesn't

How fortunate, an unexplainable X factor!!!

Lydiate and Croft have been taken as specialists, 2 clearly current lesser players to Robshaw and Brown but who could do specific jobs better.

robshaw just lead his team to ignominious failure or have we forgotten the latest 6 nations, brown....hardly makes the press except that he is highly regarded by scots....lydiate is devastating at slowing attacks around the breakdown and croft at being a lion

See, this is the problem right here.

Most rugby fans who watched the 2013 6 nations would have been able to see the contributions Brown made to Scotland in each game he played. He was outstanding, and he was literally everywhere at times. The fact that he "hardly makes the press" doesn't mean anything at all. If you base the abilities of players based on what the press has to say (which is exactly what has happened with Lydiate thanks to Jiffy and his slow motion tackle compilation) then don't be surprised to buy into the extreme hype surrounding certain players.

It is like this; the media makes out that a certain player is fantastic at a certain thing, maybe even giving him a cliche'd nickname, and the rugby world takes notice and actually seems to believe it. This has happened in the past with Mike Ross, who was never going to set the world alight but when he was named a "scrummaging specialist" everyone seemed to believe the hype. He is solid at best however, he was never a destructive scrummager. The same sort of media hype has happened with Lydiate and his game.

This, a million times this.

And beefy, your reasoning for Robshaw not going is terrible, Warburton lead Wales to a defeat at home, against Ireland. By your logic he shouldn't be on the plane either, and yet he is, and is also captaining the side.

That is without mentioning the number of times that he has led them to defeat against the very nation we are about to play. The captain isn't entirely responsible for whether a team wins or loses, look at parisse for gods sake, a phenomenal player and captain that plays for a team that loses the majority of their games, but by your reasoning, he is a terrible captain and therefore player.

And lydiate can, by no stretch of the imagination, be described as having an x-factor, he tackles people, averagely, that is all he does, there is zero x-factor in that. He's not a bad player, but to claim he has an x-factor is frankly ludicrous.

Rory you have mentioned Jiffy and the Scrum 5 pundits before and I would kinda agree with you as they have a potential bias, but when you have international pundits and ex players all saying that an on form Lydiate is the best option for the Lions then you have to think there is a bit more to it.

Been an ex blindside I appreciate just how good the guy is and when you take into account he broke his neck against Perpignan, ruptured his knee ligaments, and broke his ankle so badly it made players physically sick and to play so well in 2010 and 6Ns Man of the Tournament 2012 then its even more impressive.

Daily Telegraph readers poll, Daily Mail, and The Guardian have all selected him hence the regional bias flew out of the window a long time ago, and even as a Scot I have to sit up and take notice.

I think we all have personal favs and normally they are the ones we watch the most.

So lets wait and see