Perspective...

First topic message reminder :

Theres a lot of dribble being written about a number of players selected to tour, I think it's about time we take the criticisms with a hint of realism...

Stevens - I can understand why people dislike him, his history isn't great, but he is tearing the AP apart, contributing to Sarries euro campaign, and is a nicely rounded prop. He is a third choice option, and IMHO best of a bad bunch with the players he competed with.

Hartley - Again isn't a nice character, has discipline issues, and hasn't offered much to the England cause this year, but IMHO he is a better rounded player than Youngs, and if I had to pick one of the English boys he would be mine!

Jenkins - Yes he doesn't get in over Sheridan, but the French game is strength and scrum based, his Wales form is patchy, but if you really think about it he is played unfit and only ever gets stronger, as he looked excellent in the final games of the AI's and 6N, fitness is his issue due to no club rugby being played, but he is the most talented prop in the Isles by a mile and covers the ground as well as any too.

Lydiate - I can't argue this guys case, although a very good player he just hasn't played enough and done anything to warrant travel, but Gats knows him and like what he offers.

Croft - Injury hit again, but we all know what Croft can offer, especially if we play an open running game, I GUARENTEE HE WILL SCORE TRIES, but a test spot is very far off.

Phillips - Well Wales aren't the same team without him, and they are double champs now so... For his weaknesses he is a weapon to have in the arsenal!!

Farell - No justification needed IMHO, he has been accused of bottling it but when did this happen, he missed 2/3 kicks v Wales when his pack were destroyed, and nothing outside him offered any threat, and Toulon were in control, did he miss a kick then!! He has led his club to a euro semi, and England to a GS decider, he has been excellent and deserves his place!!!

Aside from Lydiate and Tom Youngs I think the squad has a good look to it, and it's a third 10 option away from being what most of us wanted, if not expected, so I am pretty happy.

When the inevitable injuries come the likes of...

Grant
Best
Owens
Launchbury
Brown
Robshaw
Laidlaw
Biggar
Hook
Madigan
Visser

Will all substitute in nicely!!

Go LIONS!!!!

flyhalffactory wrote:

100%beefy wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

Biltong wrote:Well there are two reasons why there are more Welsh.

1. They won the Six Nations and recent form counts.
2. Gatland knows the players and a coach select players he believes in and whose ability he trusts.

It is natural for coaches to select on that basis.

Biltong mate, do you define recent form as winning a NH tournament in a cold Feb/Mar or playing well in end of April. Is it not better to select players e.g. Brown playing consistently well right up to the HC semi final and maybe in the case of Tips been outplayed by Warbs (Blues v Os) and most definitely by Barclay (Glasgow v Os). Gatland did state that he would assess players by 6Ns and league and HC form

Do you ever post without referring to Brown....are you his granny?

Beefy fair play to you............ now not only one liners but now immature one liners............ stand up the real beefy for all to see

yes fhf what i should do is question one liners with a one liner and the subject should be how often a poster watches rugby....soooo mature!

100%beefy wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

100%beefy wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

Biltong wrote:Well there are two reasons why there are more Welsh.

1. They won the Six Nations and recent form counts.
2. Gatland knows the players and a coach select players he believes in and whose ability he trusts.

It is natural for coaches to select on that basis.

Biltong mate, do you define recent form as winning a NH tournament in a cold Feb/Mar or playing well in end of April. Is it not better to select players e.g. Brown playing consistently well right up to the HC semi final and maybe in the case of Tips been outplayed by Warbs (Blues v Os) and most definitely by Barclay (Glasgow v Os). Gatland did state that he would assess players by 6Ns and league and HC form

Do you ever post without referring to Brown....are you his granny?

Beefy fair play to you............ now not only one liners but now immature one liners............ stand up the real beefy for all to see

yes fhf what i should do is question one liners with a one liner and the subject should be how often a poster watches rugby....soooo mature!

You are like a dog with a bone laddy

Cut that monkey off your shoulder and MOVE ON for goodness sake

laddy? oh that's good, your patronising knows no bounds, and as for a dog with a bone 'granny', posting twice to get your point - i use the term loosely- across is so last season

Twice!!......... Jeeze now I really think you are sniffing something you shouldn't be

Look when you add some meat on the bone to qualify your one-liners or at least answer when people ask you what you are talking then maybe the forum will start taking your messages with some seriousness.

In the meantime..... you take care now

flyhalffactory wrote:

Biltong wrote:Well there are two reasons why there are more Welsh.

1. They won the Six Nations and recent form counts.
2. Gatland knows the players and a coach select players he believes in and whose ability he trusts.

It is natural for coaches to select on that basis.

Biltong mate, do you define recent form as winning a NH tournament in a cold Feb/Mar or playing well in end of April. Is it not better to select players e.g. Brown playing consistently well right up to the HC semi final and maybe in the case of Tips been outplayed by Warbs (Blues v Os) and most definitely by Barclay (Glasgow v Os). Gatland did state that he would assess players by 6Ns and league and HC form

I define recent form as at the time the selections are made.

Guys let's stay on topic please.

flyhalffactory wrote:Twice!!......... Jeeze now I really think you are sniffing something you shouldn't be

Look when you add some meat on the bone to qualify your one-liners or at least answer when people ask you what you are talking then maybe the forum will start taking your messages with some seriousness.

In the meantime..... you take care now

I have told you before laddy you need to keep perspective. Just because you rave and rant endlessly about a subject (e.g. Brown) does not make your comments either valid or particularly insightful, as for a dog with a bone, the best example i have ever seen on here is you and Kelly brown, you called it wrong and now you keep digging it up at every opportunity. 3 lines just for you and i made my point. you should try it some time

flyhalffactory wrote:Rory you have mentioned Jiffy and the Scrum 5 pundits before and I would kinda agree with you as they have a potential bias, but when you have international pundits and ex players all saying that an on form Lydiate is the best option for the Lions then you have to think there is a bit more to it.


So lets wait and see

Indeed - however iuts a huge gamble as he is not on form as he is just coming back from injury. We will see.

TJ wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:Rory you have mentioned Jiffy and the Scrum 5 pundits before and I would kinda agree with you as they have a potential bias, but when you have international pundits and ex players all saying that an on form Lydiate is the best option for the Lions then you have to think there is a bit more to it.


So lets wait and see

Indeed - however iuts a huge gamble as he is not on form as he is just coming back from injury. We will see.

I agree its a gamble as he hasn't had much game time but he has already had one MOM, and against Munster he completed 22 unassisted tackles and 14 assisted tackles, appreciate that Munster had a weakened team out but even so that is a phenomenal effort by any standards. I watched him last Friday and he convinced me that Gatland has made a brave but correct call in selecting him he was the stand out back row forward on the night.

I suppose we can say the same with regards to Sexton, Bowe et al who have been out with long-term injuries and have has as few or even less games back....... but I am amazed that Lydiate has been singled out, I suppose its because of the high profile position with Robshaw, Brown and Ryan all been left out

With sexton there was no one else who could take his place, with Lydiate there are plenty

Sexton was only out a few weeks - not many months.

TJ wrote:With sexton there was no one else who could take his place, with Lydiate there are plenty

Sexton was only out a few weeks - not many months.

Sexton was out from early March to mid April, a good four weeks I believe. Did you not think that Dan Biggar had a better 6Ns that Sexton?, Johnny Wilkinson was in pretty good shape there was even talk of Madigan going. So agree with you that Sexton going was almost a no-brainer but there were a few options. It is almost academic as Sexton came back with all guns blazing

Agree that blindside was a position that we had an embarrassment of riches although it can be argued that Robshaw had really lost some form for the 'Quins, Ryan Jones still injured, there wasn't that many options as first thought, the only real travesty was Kelly Brown not been selected if we looked at it purely from a current form basis.

Bowe was missing from mid December 2012 that's a good four months, quite a few wings could have felt aggrieved on selection day Visser, Wade, Brown et al, but Bowe came back looking pretty sharp.

What I am trying to say its not just about form its about ability and potential amongst others............ and the first test is not until 22 June that's what 6 weeks. Should be time for them to be match fit and on top form

Anyway this has been done to death

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. We will see.

flyhalffactory wrote:

TJ wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:Rory you have mentioned Jiffy and the Scrum 5 pundits before and I would kinda agree with you as they have a potential bias, but when you have international pundits and ex players all saying that an on form Lydiate is the best option for the Lions then you have to think there is a bit more to it.


So lets wait and see

Indeed - however iuts a huge gamble as he is not on form as he is just coming back from injury. We will see.

I agree its a gamble as he hasn't had much game time but he has already had one MOM, and against Munster he completed 22 unassisted tackles and 14 assisted tackles, appreciate that Munster had a weakened team out but even so that is a phenomenal effort by any standards. I watched him last Friday and he convinced me that Gatland has made a brave but correct call in selecting him he was the stand out back row forward on the night.

I suppose we can say the same with regards to Sexton, Bowe et al who have been out with long-term injuries and have has as few or even less games back....... but I am amazed that Lydiate has been singled out, I suppose its because of the high profile position with Robshaw, Brown and Ryan all been left out

I'm not precisely sure where your stats have come from, but it might be worth examining Lydiate's stats in some of recent games to get a better sense of his form. The following are taken from espnscrum.com:

vs Munster: Lydiate completes an impressive 20 tackles, missing just the one; overall his team enjoyed Scottish levels of possession tho (33%), so had to go thro an enormous amount of defensive work (182 tackles made/8 missed); in comparison to his teammates, Faletau (21/0), Cudd (19/1), Coombs (18/0), perhaps Lydiate's defensive work doesn't quite stand out as much as you might expect against Munster 2nds, and with just 3 carries for 4m it doesn't seem he was as busy elsewhere as say Faletau (12 for 55m) or Coombs (9 for 17m). I didn't see the game, the stats don't give assists on tackles, nor ever tell the whole picture, but I don't see anything there which is screaming 'form' at me

vs Edinburgh: Lydiate again puts in a defensive shift with 14 tackles made, and just one missed, compared to Cudd, the openside, with 13/0; this time the Dragons enjoy an equal share of possession, so perhaps Lydiate was more involved elsewhere - and yes, he makes 6 carries for 31m, vs Faletau, say, with 11 for 60m; unfortunately it looks like the Dragons were relatively heavily penalised compared to Edinburgh, giving away 11 penalties (and 2 YCs), of which Lydiate gave away 2 himself. Again, I'm not seeing a return to the 'form' of two 6Ns ago just based on the stats that would make Lydiate a straightforward selection ahead of the likes of Brown.

It is of course difficult to form an opinion without having watched the games, but even the commentaries and media write-ups are not screaming that Lydiate is back to me. Perhaps we are missing something?

To be fair Asbo, I doubt he's that inspired playing in that Dragons team. Faletau and Coombs tend to be utilised as our carriers more, so he will lack in that a bit. I think with a likely game in HK, he will be ticking over nicely by the time he gets to Oz

Let's hope so, Rev - having watched the Tags vs Kings game, there's going t be plenty of tackling to do

As, where do you get such detailed stats from? Can never find them when I search t'internet!

Griff, espnscrum.com, select the tournament you're after, then select results, then pick your game, and select match details - should get you there
Hadn't heard of Cudd before, but he seems to have been making his presence known?

Lydiate would always be in my side but I agree that its a gamble taking him with so little gametime behind him but Gatland knows him and likes what he can offer.

I would have rather seen him go to Japan and then get a call up anyone was unlucky through injury.

That said if he can regain full form and fitness between now and 1st test then he will be in with a shout of starting.

Nic Cudd started slowly, but he's been really good for us as the season's gone on. He's not the biggest, but he wins us a fair few turnovers.

Also, Asbo, you missed out a stat from the Edinburgh game - Dan scored a try. It was in a losing cause in a dead rubber, but it was a try all the same.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Nic Cudd started slowly, but he's been really good for us as the season's gone on. He's not the biggest, but he wins us a fair few turnovers.

Also, Asbo, you missed out a stat from the Edinburgh game - Dan scored a try. It was in a losing cause in a dead rubber, but it was a try all the same.

My apologies, Lucky, I had overlooked that - and it's certainly worth mentioning

He doesn't score many!

Cudd has probably been our second best player this season (behind Jon Evans at 9). But unless he was playing back on the other side of the Loughor, he won't see his form rewarded internationally (even without Sam and Tips about).

Like I have said, I hope Danny has a good tour, as I fear people will over analyse his performances and people are probably waiting to heavily criticise Gatland post tour already.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

TJ wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:Rory you have mentioned Jiffy and the Scrum 5 pundits before and I would kinda agree with you as they have a potential bias, but when you have international pundits and ex players all saying that an on form Lydiate is the best option for the Lions then you have to think there is a bit more to it.


So lets wait and see

Indeed - however iuts a huge gamble as he is not on form as he is just coming back from injury. We will see.

I agree its a gamble as he hasn't had much game time but he has already had one MOM, and against Munster he completed 22 unassisted tackles and 14 assisted tackles, appreciate that Munster had a weakened team out but even so that is a phenomenal effort by any standards. I watched him last Friday and he convinced me that Gatland has made a brave but correct call in selecting him he was the stand out back row forward on the night.

I suppose we can say the same with regards to Sexton, Bowe et al who have been out with long-term injuries and have has as few or even less games back....... but I am amazed that Lydiate has been singled out, I suppose its because of the high profile position with Robshaw, Brown and Ryan all been left out

I'm not precisely sure where your stats have come from, but it might be worth examining Lydiate's stats in some of recent games to get a better sense of his form. The following are taken from espnscrum.com:

vs Munster: Lydiate completes an impressive 20 tackles, missing just the one; overall his team enjoyed Scottish levels of possession tho (33%), so had to go thro an enormous amount of defensive work (182 tackles made/8 missed); in comparison to his teammates, Faletau (21/0), Cudd (19/1), Coombs (18/0), perhaps Lydiate's defensive work doesn't quite stand out as much as you might expect against Munster 2nds, and with just 3 carries for 4m it doesn't seem he was as busy elsewhere as say Faletau (12 for 55m) or Coombs (9 for 17m). I didn't see the game, the stats don't give assists on tackles, nor ever tell the whole picture, but I don't see anything there which is screaming 'form' at me

vs Edinburgh: Lydiate again puts in a defensive shift with 14 tackles made, and just one missed, compared to Cudd, the openside, with 13/0; this time the Dragons enjoy an equal share of possession, so perhaps Lydiate was more involved elsewhere - and yes, he makes 6 carries for 31m, vs Faletau, say, with 11 for 60m; unfortunately it looks like the Dragons were relatively heavily penalised compared to Edinburgh, giving away 11 penalties (and 2 YCs), of which Lydiate gave away 2 himself. Again, I'm not seeing a return to the 'form' of two 6Ns ago just based on the stats that would make Lydiate a straightforward selection ahead of the likes of Brown.

It is of course difficult to form an opinion without having watched the games, but even the commentaries and media write-ups are not screaming that Lydiate is back to me. Perhaps we are missing something?

The stats with regard to Munster are primarily off a work associate (and now a good friend) who is an economist in the Welsh Assembly, he is a Newport RFC nut who also watches the Dragons religiously......... he is a bit of an anorak with regard to accuracy and hence the split between assisted and unassisted tackles. I was at the game when the Dragons came up to play us and the espn scrum stats are as usual not that hot and sometimes you kinda wonder if their definition of carries or tackles are the same as most supporters watching the match e.g. they state that Nick Cudd made no carries or metres at all which is farcical, and four of Faletaus' (who departed around the hour) carries were assisted by Cudd and Lydiate. I would hazard a guess that Lydiate tackled about 18 times against us and his yardage compared to Toby was closer than the stats suggest especially as he played 20 mins longer and scored a 5m try.

Lydiate was good against us nothing special but hard to gauge as in most players demeanour it was an "end of season dead rubber", saying that he was a country mile the best back-row forward on the pitch that night. I think the spot light was on him and there certainly was a bit of pressure and tension in his play.

Like you said its really hard to form an opinion from stats and write-ups and even watching the game the Lydiates of the rugby world largely go unnoticed and normally only appreciated by old ex-blindside crinklies like me

flyhalffactory wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

TJ wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:Rory you have mentioned Jiffy and the Scrum 5 pundits before and I would kinda agree with you as they have a potential bias, but when you have international pundits and ex players all saying that an on form Lydiate is the best option for the Lions then you have to think there is a bit more to it.


So lets wait and see

Indeed - however iuts a huge gamble as he is not on form as he is just coming back from injury. We will see.

I agree its a gamble as he hasn't had much game time but he has already had one MOM, and against Munster he completed 22 unassisted tackles and 14 assisted tackles, appreciate that Munster had a weakened team out but even so that is a phenomenal effort by any standards. I watched him last Friday and he convinced me that Gatland has made a brave but correct call in selecting him he was the stand out back row forward on the night.

I suppose we can say the same with regards to Sexton, Bowe et al who have been out with long-term injuries and have has as few or even less games back....... but I am amazed that Lydiate has been singled out, I suppose its because of the high profile position with Robshaw, Brown and Ryan all been left out

I'm not precisely sure where your stats have come from, but it might be worth examining Lydiate's stats in some of recent games to get a better sense of his form. The following are taken from espnscrum.com:

vs Munster: Lydiate completes an impressive 20 tackles, missing just the one; overall his team enjoyed Scottish levels of possession tho (33%), so had to go thro an enormous amount of defensive work (182 tackles made/8 missed); in comparison to his teammates, Faletau (21/0), Cudd (19/1), Coombs (18/0), perhaps Lydiate's defensive work doesn't quite stand out as much as you might expect against Munster 2nds, and with just 3 carries for 4m it doesn't seem he was as busy elsewhere as say Faletau (12 for 55m) or Coombs (9 for 17m). I didn't see the game, the stats don't give assists on tackles, nor ever tell the whole picture, but I don't see anything there which is screaming 'form' at me

vs Edinburgh: Lydiate again puts in a defensive shift with 14 tackles made, and just one missed, compared to Cudd, the openside, with 13/0; this time the Dragons enjoy an equal share of possession, so perhaps Lydiate was more involved elsewhere - and yes, he makes 6 carries for 31m, vs Faletau, say, with 11 for 60m; unfortunately it looks like the Dragons were relatively heavily penalised compared to Edinburgh, giving away 11 penalties (and 2 YCs), of which Lydiate gave away 2 himself. Again, I'm not seeing a return to the 'form' of two 6Ns ago just based on the stats that would make Lydiate a straightforward selection ahead of the likes of Brown.

It is of course difficult to form an opinion without having watched the games, but even the commentaries and media write-ups are not screaming that Lydiate is back to me. Perhaps we are missing something?

The stats with regard to Munster are primarily off a work associate (and now a good friend) who is an economist in the Welsh Assembly, he is a Newport RFC nut who also watches the Dragons religiously......... he is a bit of an anorak with regard to accuracy and hence the split between assisted and unassisted tackles. I was at the game when the Dragons came up to play us and the espn scrum stats are as usual not that hot and sometimes you kinda wonder if their definition of carries or tackles are the same as most supporters watching the match e.g. they state that Nick Cudd made no carries or metres at all which is farcical, and four of Faletaus' (who departed around the hour) carries were assisted by Cudd and Lydiate. I would hazard a guess that Lydiate tackled about 18 times against us and his yardage compared to Toby was closer than the stats suggest especially as he played 20 mins longer and scored a 5m try.

Lydiate was good against us nothing special but hard to gauge as in most players demeanour it was an "end of season dead rubber", saying that he was a country mile the best back-row forward on the pitch that night. I think the spot light was on him and there certainly was a bit of pressure and tension in his play.

Like you said its really hard to form an opinion from stats and write-ups and even watching the game the Lydiates of the rugby world largely go unnoticed and normally only appreciated by old ex-blindside crinklies like me

Are we talking the Munster game at Dave parade, I watched it and thought Lydiate was good but very rusty, his tackling wasn't as destructive at all, and he assisted more than he made, carried in the tight and played pretty safe tbh. Decent return for such a long injury though, wouldn't complain.

thebluesmancometh wrote:
Are we talking the Munster game at Dave parade, I watched it and thought Lydiate was good but very rusty, his tackling wasn't as destructive at all, and he assisted more than he made, carried in the tight and played pretty safe tbh. Decent return for such a long injury though, wouldn't complain.

Yes
I watched the re-run highlights, agree that his tackling wasn't destructive but then again nobody has suggested it was, on saying that they certainly weren't passive tackling.. He made more individual tackles than assisted that's without a shadow of a doubt, and correct me if I am wrong decent return to award him MOM

flyhalffactory wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:
Are we talking the Munster game at Dave parade, I watched it and thought Lydiate was good but very rusty, his tackling wasn't as destructive at all, and he assisted more than he made, carried in the tight and played pretty safe tbh. Decent return for such a long injury though, wouldn't complain.

Yes
I watched the re-run, agree that his tackling wasn't destructive but then again nobody has suggested it was, on saying that they certainly weren't passive tackling.. He made more individual tackles than assisted that's without a shadow of a doubt, and correct me if I am wrong decent return to award him MOM

I havn't seen the replay, I was at the stadium only, and there was a bit of shock when he was suggested as MOTM as Falatau and Coombes looked excellent.

What I mean by destructive was his speed off the line, and the way he generally cuts players in 2, he looked far more passive than he usually does, and conceded ground purposefully every now and then, but like I said it was a return, and players are happy to get through the first few games unscathed before they look to ramp their performances up to 100%, thats just how it seemed to us.

Risca Rev wrote:Cudd has probably been our second best player this season (behind Jon Evans at 9). But unless he was playing back on the other side of the Loughor, he won't see his form rewarded internationally (even without Sam and Tips about).

Like I have said, I hope Danny has a good tour, as I fear people will over analyse his performances and people are probably waiting to heavily criticise Gatland post tour already.

yep, I'm lined up already!

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:Cudd has probably been our second best player this season (behind Jon Evans at 9). But unless he was playing back on the other side of the Loughor, he won't see his form rewarded internationally (even without Sam and Tips about).

Like I have said, I hope Danny has a good tour, as I fear people will over analyse his performances and people are probably waiting to heavily criticise Gatland post tour already.

yep, I'm lined up already!

As many other english are, I would be too if someone like haskell was taken over Warburton (Wales captain)

gatland hasn't done himself any favours with the Lydiate selection IMHO, Robshaw would've been a far easier (and better) option.

thebluesmancometh wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:
Are we talking the Munster game at Dave parade, I watched it and thought Lydiate was good but very rusty, his tackling wasn't as destructive at all, and he assisted more than he made, carried in the tight and played pretty safe tbh. Decent return for such a long injury though, wouldn't complain.

Yes
I watched the re-run, agree that his tackling wasn't destructive but then again nobody has suggested it was, on saying that they certainly weren't passive tackling.. He made more individual tackles than assisted that's without a shadow of a doubt, and correct me if I am wrong decent return to award him MOM

I havn't seen the replay, I was at the stadium only, and there was a bit of shock when he was suggested as MOTM as Falatau and Coombes looked excellent.

What I mean by destructive was his speed off the line, and the way he generally cuts players in 2, he looked far more passive than he usually does, and conceded ground purposefully every now and then, but like I said it was a return, and players are happy to get through the first few games unscathed before they look to ramp their performances up to 100%, thats just how it seemed to us.

My recollection is that he led the defensive line and two tackles in particular were like when he felled Fofana.