Future European Comp

SecretFly wrote:

beshocked wrote:secretfly Ireland have 100% representation in the HC for 2013/14 no matter how you'd like to twist it to suit you. As I said before the solution I suggested means Connacht would not have to hang onto coat tails to qualify.

Quick question: Do you think it's better if Connacht qualify for the HC by hanging onto coat tails or by their own team efforts? Personally I prefer the latter.



I would say 50% higher attendances is a pretty significant amount actually.

Rugby became professional in 1995. It is still a growing sport.

Pro12 is growing too but it is still significantly lower than both the AP and Top 14 in terms of attendances.

Secretfly funnily enough it's you who are in your Pro12 bubble refusing to discuss the possibility of a compromise.

I get the impression you think the Pro12 is the greatest league in the world. Sorry to burst that bubble it isn't.

If all the delegates from the Pro12 are like you there will be no compromise.

Now there's a 'stung' few paragraphs! Wasn't expecting that tone - did I hit a nerve or two, beshocked?

Compromise remains what it is - two sides giving way to come to a conclusion. You change the definition to suit your clothes all you like, that's what it means. The status quo is what's happening now. The sacrificial changes are being asked of one League and four unions that consist of something called Pro12. That's not compromise. And modification of demands is not compromise. Compromise is compromise.

Ireland's '100% representation' is the extra side they drag into the competition by virtue of how they perform IN the competition rather than always talking about the competition like others seem to do. You don't like that as a standard to live by, then tough - it's called competition on the field - where real rugby exists. The rules weren't created to help Connacht out (a side you seem to be positively obsessed with.) France will have the extra side perk next year.

You'd want Ireland to have only one side in HC because three of them is 75% and four of them is 100%? Ireland one side, England six sides. France six sides. Do you have any clue how to judge fairness in a competition?

The English and French (who can never have 100% involvement) still always have more chances of winning the HC than Irish sides in real and practical terms on the field, where real rugby exists.

You weave your percentage magic around that one too as much as you like but the facts won't change. The HC is top loaded with English and French sides (not there on merit) but there because someone thought up the number six. And lucky number six wasn't always the lucky number. It's grown over the timeframe of the HC, as Ireland's tally remained the same. And yet, poor English and French rugby is again the hard done ones? Read your history of the HC, beshocked, and then tell me about all the wrong that's being done to the poor oppressed and abused English and French.

As for Pro12 being the greatest league in the world????? Nope, that's an old cry from a League next door to us that used to holler it out all the time when the HC was working out to their advantage; and when they sniggered and giggled at the little "Celtic" idiots trying to pretend they were playing man's rugby. There's no sniggering and giggling now. The game just got ultra serious; as the 'compromise' negotiations continue to affirm, and the attempts are made to put the 'Celts' back in their upstart boxes.

beshocked wrote:
Secretfly do you want to be treated as the Pro12 or separate countries? You can't have it both ways.

If you are talking to me as an Irishman - my suggestion would not harm Irish representation as things stand. It would actually help Connacht qualify by their own merits.

You are right I do talk too much about Connacht because they are a beacon for what is wrong with the Pro12. A side qualifying for the HC not based on their own merits.

I notice Pro12 fans when the HC is around like to switch back and forth between country allegiances and allegiances to the Pro12.

Surely you would expect the best players of Wales,Scotland and Italy squeezed into only a very small amount of sides would see an increase in quality?

I hear how great certain Pro12 players are yet in the HC what happens? Flattering to deceive.

You would expect the quality of these players to be higher as they play in international matches but time and again they fail to make any impact in the HC.

Just compare win percentages.

Imagine if England pooled the resources of Saracens,Quins,Tigers and Saints to make two super sides? Saraquins and Northampton Tigers.

I fiercely believe in eradicating the riding of coat tails - yes this means I don't believe in English and French sides getting an extra side or two either when their team wins a competition. I like to see sides qualify on their own merit - hence I have been very pleased with Exeter.

Perpignan qualified courtesy of the all French final. I would say they don't deserve to be in the HC either. I don't particularly rate them.

The Pro12 should be based on qualifying for merit in the HC.

Actually I have had quite a few opportunities to laugh - the hype simply hasn't been backed up by certain Pro12 sides.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Why?All that does is destroy the middle tier of a league as instead of aiming to build a strong team and actually win the league they will instead want a big squad of good players that mean they can squeak into the HC in 6th place and hail that as a successful season.Rewarding teams in the league for finishing mid table only encourages mediocrity.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

beshocked wrote:
Secretfly do you want to be treated as the Pro12 or separate countries? You can't have it both ways.

If you are talking to me as an Irishman - my suggestion would not harm Irish representation as things stand. It would actually help Connacht qualify by their own merits.

You are right I do talk too much about Connacht because they are a beacon for what is wrong with the Pro12. A side qualifying for the HC not based on their own merits.

I notice Pro12 fans when the HC is around like to switch back and forth between country allegiances and allegiances to the Pro12.

Surely you would expect the best players of Wales,Scotland and Italy squeezed into only a very small amount of sides would see an increase in quality?

I hear how great certain Pro12 players are yet in the HC what happens? Flattering to deceive.

You would expect the quality of these players to be higher as they play in international matches but time and again they fail to make any impact in the HC.

Just compare win percentages.

Imagine if England pooled the resources of Saracens,Quins,Tigers and Saints to make two super sides? Saraquins and Northampton Tigers.

I fiercely believe in eradicating the riding of coat tails - yes this means I don't believe in English and French sides getting an extra side or two either when their team wins a competition. I like to see sides qualify on their own merit - hence I have been very pleased with Exeter.

Perpignan qualified courtesy of the all French final. I would say they don't deserve to be in the HC either. I don't particularly rate them.

The Pro12 should be based on qualifying for merit in the HC.

Actually I have had quite a few opportunities to laugh - the hype simply hasn't been backed up by certain Pro12 sides.

Why?All that does is destroy the middle tier of a league as instead of aiming to build a strong team and actually win the league they will instead want a big squad of good players that mean they can squeak into the HC in 6th place and hail that as a successful season.Rewarding teams in the league for finishing mid table only encourages mediocrity.

HammerofThunor wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Why?All that does is destroy the middle tier of a league as instead of aiming to build a strong team and actually win the league they will instead want a big squad of good players that mean they can squeak into the HC in 6th place and hail that as a successful season.Rewarding teams in the league for finishing mid table only encourages mediocrity.

Compared to what? It only encourages mediocrity if you have half you league as a lot better than the rest. The 5th and 6th place can relax once they're qualified and forget about the playoffs. The rest just try but aren't up to it.

Would that be the case? I don't think so. Probably anyteam in the PRO12 at the moment may be pushing for 6th spot (except maybe Zebre). So the 5 teams will be pushing 6th and not allow them the settle. Pushing and pushing. It may mean they can't do an Edinburgh and blow of the league for the cup but I wouldn't say they'd settle for mediocrity.

So, either the PRO12 is split into 6 good teams and 6 poor teams...or your wrong...or I am.

beshocked wrote:



What does rewarding teams in the league for finishing wherever they do encourage?

HC has added value if teams in the Pro12 actually have to try to be involved in the competition.

Connacht have been mediocre/weak for almost their entire existence because their chances of reaching the HC by merit have been hampered by having to finish ahead of one of Leinster,Munster,Ulster. Where's the motivation where hypothetically you could come 4th in the Pro12 and not reach the HC?

You have been used to having HC rugby handed to you on a platter. That's the problem. The HC should be an elite competition. Not a competition for those to make up the numbers.

How does Zebre getting thumped in every HC match help their development? At least in the Amlin they might win some matches.

beshocked wrote:
Secretfly do you want to be treated as the Pro12 or separate countries? You can't have it both ways.

You have been used to having HC rugby handed to you on a platter. That's the problem. The HC should be an elite competition. Not a competition for those to make up the numbers.

How does Zebre getting thumped in every HC match help their development? At least in the Amlin they might win some matches.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Why?All that does is destroy the middle tier of a league as instead of aiming to build a strong team and actually win the league they will instead want a big squad of good players that mean they can squeak into the HC in 6th place and hail that as a successful season.Rewarding teams in the league for finishing mid table only encourages mediocrity.

Compared to what? It only encourages mediocrity if you have half you league as a lot better than the rest. The 5th and 6th place can relax once they're qualified and forget about the playoffs. The rest just try but aren't up to it.

Would that be the case? I don't think so. Probably anyteam in the PRO12 at the moment may be pushing for 6th spot (except maybe Zebre). So the 5 teams will be pushing 6th and not allow them the settle. Pushing and pushing. It may mean they can't do an Edinburgh and blow of the league for the cup but I wouldn't say they'd settle for mediocrity.

So, either the PRO12 is split into 6 good teams and 6 poor teams...or your wrong...or I am.

Edinburgh didn't blow off the league for the cup,they've been a poor side at the bottom end of the table for years now and concentrating on the league wouldn't change anything as they simply aren't and won't be good enough without an influx of new players and coaching staff.

HammerofThunor wrote: And if they're so poor does it suggest that the HEC really isn't any sort of elite competition and any lucky team can do well? I mean look at Saints in 20XX

SecretFly wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote: And if they're so poor does it suggest that the HEC really isn't any sort of elite competition and any lucky team can do well? I mean look at Saints in 20XX

It means exactly that Hammer...certainly in the Pool stages. Quality can do so much but chance and location can play tricks too...add in a bad reffing decision here and there and any rugby game, played anywhere, can have surprise results.
There is no natural Elitism to the Pool Stages of the HC, and those who suggest there is or there should be are really arguing for a competition that probably has about 12 sides at most in it. There is always packaging in any competition - and HC, and it's successor, whatever it might be called, will be no different.

So we get back to which sides have the right to be the packaging.

HammerofThunor wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote: And if they're so poor does it suggest that the HEC really isn't any sort of elite competition and any lucky team can do well? I mean look at Saints in 20XX

It means exactly that Hammer...certainly in the Pool stages. Quality can do so much but chance and location can play tricks too...add in a bad reffing decision here and there and any rugby game, played anywhere, can have surprise results.
There is no natural Elitism to the Pool Stages of the HC, and those who suggest there is or there should be are really arguing for a competition that probably has about 12 sides at most in it. There is always packaging in any competition - and HC, and it's successor, whatever it might be called, will be no different.

So we get back to which sides have the right to be the packaging.

Well I think due of historical reason mixed with Devine Right and inventing the game we need the English in there. The French because their Empire wasn't as good as ours (since we're blaimed for all the bad bits I am claiming it as our Empire even if it was French, Scottish, Welsh and German Kings/Queens, with the Irish doing the fighting), and that's to standards deviced by the English of course, so we can give em a break. Then a few others to make up the numbers.

But I will say now the idea that the winner of the Cup is the best in Europe is laughable if a poor team can get to the Semi (or final in Saints case).

Feckless Rogue wrote:I don't understand why the English posters want less teams in it. In Gaelic football the biggest prize is the all Ireland Championship. It's the big knockout competition and far more important and prestigious than the league.

Every team gets to enter it. Regardless of what league position or even what division they are in. Like the FA Cup in England. I think the flagship European rugby tournament should be the same. Everyone should get a shot at it. Why restrict it? And why run two tournaments concurrently?

There should be one cross border competition for everyone. Then the Franglo problem with tougher qualification rules disappear. Because there is no qualification. Getting the tournament played in a certain number of games is just a question of competition structure.

broadlandboy wrote:Secret, How would you feel if Connacht came forth in the Rabo,behind the other 3 Irish teams, but were the only team not to qualify because a Welsh team won either the HC or Amlin? Surely it would be better for the best teams to go through? As for your arguement about playing for 5/6 surely the teams below would be pushing to qualify so improving the competitve element rather than now only the 4th Irish/Welsh teams having something to fight for.

Feckless Rogue wrote:I don't understand why the English posters want less teams in it.

profitius wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:I don't understand why the English posters want less teams in it.

Because the less teams from Italy, Ireland, Wales and Scotland means a greater percentage of the teams are English and that means more money for English clubs.


They want to change the whole idea of the HEC from its original union based idea to a 3 league based idea. They are busily trying to change the pro 12 structure to suit themselves. I hope and presume that the pro 12 unions will tell them where to go.


Despite what some of us believe and hope, it seems the French are firmly on the English side but being cuter about it. The tournament is about to stop and they've made no efforts to solve it from what we can tell so far.

SecretFly wrote:So forget any complex European competition at all for now. Just let all Leagues and Unions go their own individual way again. AP will have its League and get more money for it from BT. Top 14 will have their perhaps enhanced big bucks League. Pro12 will have its League still, with new partner, Sky.

Then, if they all seriously want to talk about a European competition in a few years time (when tetchy moods have settled), have a true new beginning based on nothing that's gone before but based on an equal participation quick-fire European 6 Nation decider Competition.
Two sides from each Nation. 12 sides - two pools - one side per nation in each pool, decided by a simple draw - 5 games each - 4 qualifiers to play two semis and then the Final.

Less complexity, less sides, less bullshitt, less time, more true level playing field within a competition structure. One sponsor, one broadcaster, one deal divided equally to all league sides (38 parts) with prize money going to semi-final sides, runner-up and winner. No ranking system needed.

But first the breakoff, the mood seems to be too oppressive, too pressurised and too coercive.

SecretFly wrote:No, Hammer...I think I'm getting excited by my newer idea.

Just walk away for now. That's what I'd be advising my representatives to do now..........

...now where's that IRFU number I was using to advise them up to n.......................oops!!! None of you heard that, right!!!!