Future European Comp

First topic message reminder :

Progress made when ERC not involved.http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/may/20/heineken-cup-tv-deal

Kingshu wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Either way, it looks as though the Celts and the Italians are going to get monumentally shafted over this, I hope for the love of god, just for once the WRU get things right and have every base covered when it comes to these negotiations, although I cannot see it.

If the IRFU,SRU,FIR and WRU stick together I think it will end up being ok for all of them, some teams will be in Almin etc etc.

However my worry is the WRU are pressured to let the regions join the Jeff, or something. If WRU break away it'll be bad news for everyone, but if they stick together then they are in a position of strength.

The WRU do what they want and poop on who they want. Fortunately so far they have only miffed off the welsh public, but if they see £££ elsewhere they will poop on whoever it takes to get the cash.

greytiger wrote:This is a club competition though Notch. Not one for Unions, but participating leagues share the spoils evenly.

[ed] I suppose the Rabo unions could still allocate at least one team from each though.

No it's not,Ireland and Wales don't have clubs.I'm not sure about Scotland.The HC was setup to provide a cross border competiton for the various teams in Europe,it was setup by the Unions and it was done to increase the standard of rugby across the board.Now that it's a success the PRL and some of the French clubs want to change it so that they benefit and screw the rest.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

greytiger wrote:This is a club competition though Notch. Not one for Unions, but participating leagues share the spoils evenly.

[ed] I suppose the Rabo unions could still allocate at least one team from each though.

No it's not,Ireland and Wales don't have clubs.I'm not sure about Scotland.The HC was setup to provide a cross border competiton for the various teams in Europe,it was setup by the Unions and it was done to increase the standard of rugby across the board.Now that it's a success the PRL and some of the French clubs want to change it so that they benefit and screw the rest.

Now that the HC is a success for the 6N, shouldn't it evolve to increase the standard of rugby elsewhere, such as Germany, Georgia, Portugal, Russia, etc. Something like a third tier competition perhaps, or have some parties forgotten those initial motives now that they're raking in the shekels? The Amlin is not such a success - shouldn't it evolve into a more meaningful competition to enhance the depth of the standard of rugby?

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Now that the HC is a success for the 6N, shouldn't it evolve to increase the standard of rugby elsewhere, such as Germany, Georgia, Portugal, Russia, etc. Something like a third tier competition perhaps, or have some parties forgotten those initial motives now that they're raking in the shekels? The Amlin is not such a success - shouldn't it evolve into a more meaningful competition to enhance the depth of the standard of rugby?

Show me a viable solution to making the Amlin or some other competiton successful and I'd accept it but I don't really believe there is one as the appetite isn't there for low level cup competitions.Also your post doens't address my point,this new competition is in no way an evolution that will increase the standard of rugby elsewhere.

SecretFly wrote:

nathan wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

nathan wrote:

SecretFly wrote:It's not about f**king money.

Sorry for the language but this really is getting on for Mafia talk sometimes. "Hey, we're giving you more money to keep your nose out of our controlling affairs. So you might have a tougher time getting to play against us (French and English) in the playoffs and finals...but yis 'ill have more money."

It's not about money - it's about participation. Participation at the business end of Europe generates its own money. That's a better way to earn it.

What rubbish, of courses it's also about money. Do you think clubs will be participating at the buesiness end of the season at all when they haven't the funds for a decent squad to compete at the business end of the league.

They're doing fine now...the teams that put in the effort You take the bribe money and die a slow death if that's the party you want to go to. Others will decide how they judge the 'keep quiet' cheques.

They're being who? last time i checked it was only the irish who were constantly in the knock out stages. Welsh regions seem to be looking for the financial death bed, We've already had one italian team fold. Lets hope the unions/clubs go into these meetings being a little less stubborn that you.

the ones that put in the effort...I told you that the first time. There is always an excuse for more money (before we start doing the winning ) And by God, don't the big English and French clubs realise that about some of the little minnows. That's why the idea of 'money' gets a mention more than the idea of just what a fair shot at the HC actually means. Money makes people with strong principles wobble. And when enough of them wobble, as saliva pours from their lips, the unity of purpose falls apart and it's every man for himself.

You're damn right I'm stubborn. I hope the Pro12 Unions are stubborn too - this is a corporate buy-out attempt, and some of the investor chickens are indeed quawking at the potential of more money for less influence.

LOL, would love to hear you tell all Scotish/welsh/italian teams that they don't put the effort in to try and progress in the HC. You sure not having the funds for strength in depth has nothing at all to do with it?

a corporate buy-out attempt? you thought about writing for the daily mail?

If this is the agreement that it went through because the money was more important to the unions than anything else. Any offer wasn't forced on anyone. We've had months of "sod them, we don't need them, we'll join up with the US/SANZAR/whoever". Instead we have a potential system (and I'm still not convinced it'll be what has been suggested) where they've given away a hell of a lot for some more cash (and relatively less).

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

greytiger wrote:This is a club competition though Notch. Not one for Unions, but participating leagues share the spoils evenly.

[ed] I suppose the Rabo unions could still allocate at least one team from each though.

No it's not,Ireland and Wales don't have clubs.I'm not sure about Scotland.The HC was setup to provide a cross border competiton for the various teams in Europe,it was setup by the Unions and it was done to increase the standard of rugby across the board.Now that it's a success the PRL and some of the French clubs want to change it so that they benefit and screw the rest.

On the button. And it wasn't the English and French making it a success in marketing terms over recent years as one of them pretended they couldn't live with the French lack of stringent spending caps and the other one pretended it wasn't interested in the competition anyway.

Speaking of which, in all this talk of leveling the playing field by the privately owned clubs of England and France, I don't often see the variations in those spending caps throughout Europe mentioned too often as one of the now glaring examples of a playing field that is very lumpy indeed.

No, English clubs don't want to mention that one as a sticking point because they hope to do away with their restrictive caps too when they gain more control of European affairs. For now they want an ally in France, so not a word about the millions extra that French clubs spend to be at the HC seat in the first place.

Notch wrote:

We don't have clubs tiger. All the provinces are are branches of the Union. You know this.

Whats its going to do is make our league like your failed leagues- it will upset the balance with regards to importing foreign talent with pressure exerted to qualify whatever the cost and create a cosy cartel of wealthier teams who are ever present at the top of the table while the have nots are perpetually stuck at the bottom. But I doubt interest is there for some of the Pro12 teams at the bottom to sustain this even more hopeless situation.

This Anglo-French screwjob is going to severely damage professional rugby elsewhere in Europe and English and French fans don't give a feck. I get that. But we have a right to be angry.

Failed leagues? I am not allowing myself to comment on the pro-12 model and wether or not a mix of regions, provinces and italian subsidised teams without relegation is a good or bad thing. Because I am not a part of it and I fully accept that if people of Ireland, Wales, Scotland and Italy are happy with it then so be it. On what basis do you judge the AP and T14 who are club leagues that have been there for ages ? Just because the province sytem was a success in Ireland when rugby turned pro, doesnt mean it will work elsewhere.
but you do have a point, we are not talking the same language : am talking clubs with their own interest and development while you are local rugby union affilitiates. difference in terms of goals will make it very hard to have a competition involving both kind of set-ups.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Now that the HC is a success for the 6N, shouldn't it evolve to increase the standard of rugby elsewhere, such as Germany, Georgia, Portugal, Russia, etc. Something like a third tier competition perhaps, or have some parties forgotten those initial motives now that they're raking in the shekels? The Amlin is not such a success - shouldn't it evolve into a more meaningful competition to enhance the depth of the standard of rugby?

Show me a viable solution to making the Amlin or some other competiton successful and I'd accept it but I don't really believe there is one as the appetite isn't there for low level cup competitions.Also your post doens't address my point,this new competition is in no way an evolution that will increase the standard of rugby elsewhere.

Going by this seasons rankings, the Amlin Cup entrants from the Rabo would be Connacht/Treviso (whoever misses out on the play-off), Cardiff Blues, Edinburgh, Dragons, and Zebre (all of which have HEC experience, and two have HEC semi-final experience). Surely having sides like that in the Amlin from the off would make it far more competitive? That said it will also make the chances of Stade Buccarest (or what ever minnow sides make it) of getting anywhere so remote that there would be some prison shaming scores.

nathan wrote:

LOL, would love to hear you tell all Scotish/welsh/italian teams that they don't put the effort in to try and progress in the HC. You sure not having the funds for strength in depth has nothing at all to do with it?

a corporate buy-out attempt? you thought about writing for the daily mail?

Is that all you've got, Nathan - the Daily Mail? That's you guys. You read whatever you want to read. I'll call a spade a spade.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

greytiger wrote:This is a club competition though Notch. Not one for Unions, but participating leagues share the spoils evenly.

[ed] I suppose the Rabo unions could still allocate at least one team from each though.

No it's not,Ireland and Wales don't have clubs.I'm not sure about Scotland.The HC was setup to provide a cross border competiton for the various teams in Europe,it was setup by the Unions and it was done to increase the standard of rugby across the board.Now that it's a success the PRL and some of the French clubs want to change it so that they benefit and screw the rest.

This is essentially the English and French clubs seizing control of an initiative by each countries respective Unions.

HammerofThunor wrote:If this is the agreement that it went through because the money was more important to the unions than anything else. Any offer wasn't forced on anyone. We've had months of "sod them, we don't need them, we'll join up with the US/SANZAR/whoever". Instead we have a potential system (and I'm still not convinced it'll be what has been suggested) where they've given away a hell of a lot for some more cash (and relatively less).

So now after all this time, you're agreeing with me??? Hammer, you cad, sir

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Now that the HC is a success for the 6N, shouldn't it evolve to increase the standard of rugby elsewhere, such as Germany, Georgia, Portugal, Russia, etc. Something like a third tier competition perhaps, or have some parties forgotten those initial motives now that they're raking in the shekels? The Amlin is not such a success - shouldn't it evolve into a more meaningful competition to enhance the depth of the standard of rugby?

Show me a viable solution to making the Amlin or some other competiton successful and I'd accept it but I don't really believe there is one as the appetite isn't there for low level cup competitions.Also your post doens't address my point,this new competition is in no way an evolution that will increase the standard of rugby elsewhere.

Don't you mean new competitionS?

Amlinv2 will be more successful by eliminating the teams that are regularly outclassed in the pool stages (with them competing in a 3rd tier). If someone is hungry, there's appetite for bread and water, just as much as cake and jelly.

The standard of rugby elsewhere would be increased by a cross-border competition for clubs/regions/provinces of Tier 2 countries (3rd tier), much as it has for Tier 1 countries for the last couple of decades, or, at least, there seems to be precedence for the theory.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Now that the HC is a success for the 6N, shouldn't it evolve to increase the standard of rugby elsewhere, such as Germany, Georgia, Portugal, Russia, etc. Something like a third tier competition perhaps, or have some parties forgotten those initial motives now that they're raking in the shekels? The Amlin is not such a success - shouldn't it evolve into a more meaningful competition to enhance the depth of the standard of rugby?

Show me a viable solution to making the Amlin or some other competiton successful and I'd accept it but I don't really believe there is one as the appetite isn't there for low level cup competitions.Also your post doens't address my point,this new competition is in no way an evolution that will increase the standard of rugby elsewhere.

Don't you mean new competitionS?

Amlinv2 will be more successful by eliminating the teams that are regularly outclassed in the pool stages (with them competing in a 3rd tier). If someone is hungry, there's appetite for bread and water, just as much as cake and jelly.

The standard of rugby elsewhere would be increased by a cross-border competition for clubs/regions/provinces of Tier 2 countries (3rd tier), much as it has for Tier 1 countries for the last couple of decades, or, at least, there seems to be precedence for the theory.

Dub, I think we're pretty much all agreed on the need to reform the Amlin, and indeed the benefits of introducing a tier 3 competition.

whocares- the definition of failure depends on your definition of success I suppose. As far as the Boudjellals of this world are concerned the Top14 is wildly successful. For me, the point of the club/provincial tier of rugby worldwide is to provide top-class competition that produces players for the next tier up (i.e. the national teams). There's a place for Non-qualified players but it needs to be regulated in some way.

I think looking at how France have done in the Six Nations in the last year, the numbers of French players in key positions getting gametime across France and most worrying the lack of basic skills in the France under-age teams the Top14 is an out of control juggernaught failing the wider needs of rugby in France.

The last thing we want is our league to end up like yours with all due respect but it feels like we're going to be pushed in that direction.

Notch wrote:whocares- the definition of failure depends on your definition of success I suppose. As far as the Boudjellals of this world are concerned the Top14 is wildly successful. For me, the point of the club/provincial tier of rugby worldwide is to provide top-class competition that produces players for the next tier up (i.e. the national teams). There's a place for Non-qualified players but it needs to be regulated in some way.

I think looking at how France have done in the Six Nations in the last year, the numbers of French players in key positions getting gametime across France and most worrying the lack of basic skills in the France under-age teams the Top14 is an out of control juggernaught failing the wider needs of rugby in France.

The last thing we want is our league to end up like yours with all due respect but it feels like we're going to be pushed in that direction.

Notch, not a chance - with just a third of the European money split four ways, the Italo-Celts will disappear off into the Atlantic, leaving England and France to play themselves!

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Now that the HC is a success for the 6N, shouldn't it evolve to increase the standard of rugby elsewhere, such as Germany, Georgia, Portugal, Russia, etc. Something like a third tier competition perhaps, or have some parties forgotten those initial motives now that they're raking in the shekels? The Amlin is not such a success - shouldn't it evolve into a more meaningful competition to enhance the depth of the standard of rugby?

Show me a viable solution to making the Amlin or some other competiton successful and I'd accept it but I don't really believe there is one as the appetite isn't there for low level cup competitions.Also your post doens't address my point,this new competition is in no way an evolution that will increase the standard of rugby elsewhere.

Don't you mean new competitionS?

Amlinv2 will be more successful by eliminating the teams that are regularly outclassed in the pool stages (with them competing in a 3rd tier). If someone is hungry, there's appetite for bread and water, just as much as cake and jelly.

The standard of rugby elsewhere would be increased by a cross-border competition for clubs/regions/provinces of Tier 2 countries (3rd tier), much as it has for Tier 1 countries for the last couple of decades, or, at least, there seems to be precedence for the theory.

So, any mention of salary caps in this here new deal and new adventure? Not much fun being a Tier1 side with half or less the funding another Tier 1 side throws at the competition. That's Premiership football...that's just 'equality' image without the truth backing it up;...that's a competition where a select number of sides drive to the top four or five positions and stay there - kept there by money and the players they can buy and suck away from other lesser teams.

So, I will ask again, what are the motives behind the fiasco of changing the HC ? At first I thought it was because the French did not want it clashing with the T14, but now the whole money thing has raised it's ugly head, so who is pushing for what ?

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Going by this seasons rankings, the Amlin Cup entrants from the Rabo would be Connacht/Treviso (whoever misses out on the play-off), Cardiff Blues, Edinburgh, Dragons, and Zebre (all of which have HEC experience, and two have HEC semi-final experience). Surely having sides like that in the Amlin from the off would make it far more competitive? That said it will also make the chances of Stade Buccarest (or what ever minnow sides make it) of getting anywhere so remote that there would be some prison shaming scores.

It might be more competitve but imo it still won't be a success.Fans won't turn up to watch it as it's a 2nd tier comp and there isn't the interest among the rugby public to travel to another country to watch mid table English/French/Celtic teams.This is all imo but I just can't see there being much interest in a 2nd tier Euro comp for years,rugby just isn't a big enough sport yet.

Notch to be fair Toulon have never won the Top 14. I actually think that its great that the likes of Montpellier and Castres continue to do so well.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Now that the HC is a success for the 6N, shouldn't it evolve to increase the standard of rugby elsewhere, such as Germany, Georgia, Portugal, Russia, etc. Something like a third tier competition perhaps, or have some parties forgotten those initial motives now that they're raking in the shekels? The Amlin is not such a success - shouldn't it evolve into a more meaningful competition to enhance the depth of the standard of rugby?

Show me a viable solution to making the Amlin or some other competiton successful and I'd accept it but I don't really believe there is one as the appetite isn't there for low level cup competitions.Also your post doens't address my point,this new competition is in no way an evolution that will increase the standard of rugby elsewhere.

Don't you mean new competitionS?

Amlinv2 will be more successful by eliminating the teams that are regularly outclassed in the pool stages (with them competing in a 3rd tier). If someone is hungry, there's appetite for bread and water, just as much as cake and jelly.

The standard of rugby elsewhere would be increased by a cross-border competition for clubs/regions/provinces of Tier 2 countries (3rd tier), much as it has for Tier 1 countries for the last couple of decades, or, at least, there seems to be precedence for the theory.

Dub, I think we're pretty much all agreed on the need to reform the Amlin, and indeed the benefits of introducing a tier 3 competition.

Asbo, from what I've read, there appears to be not so much agreement on those benefits, as widespread ignorance of them and the 2 proposed lower competitions. Blinkered frothing at the mouth seems to be de rigeur, albeit over genuine concerns, as it has been since last August.

Oh for a box, to think outwith.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Now that the HC is a success for the 6N, shouldn't it evolve to increase the standard of rugby elsewhere, such as Germany, Georgia, Portugal, Russia, etc. Something like a third tier competition perhaps, or have some parties forgotten those initial motives now that they're raking in the shekels? The Amlin is not such a success - shouldn't it evolve into a more meaningful competition to enhance the depth of the standard of rugby?

Show me a viable solution to making the Amlin or some other competiton successful and I'd accept it but I don't really believe there is one as the appetite isn't there for low level cup competitions.Also your post doens't address my point,this new competition is in no way an evolution that will increase the standard of rugby elsewhere.

Don't you mean new competitionS?

Amlinv2 will be more successful by eliminating the teams that are regularly outclassed in the pool stages (with them competing in a 3rd tier). If someone is hungry, there's appetite for bread and water, just as much as cake and jelly.

The standard of rugby elsewhere would be increased by a cross-border competition for clubs/regions/provinces of Tier 2 countries (3rd tier), much as it has for Tier 1 countries for the last couple of decades, or, at least, there seems to be precedence for the theory.

Dub, I think we're pretty much all agreed on the need to reform the Amlin, and indeed the benefits of introducing a tier 3 competition.

Asbo, from what I've read, there appears to be not so much agreement on those benefits, as widespread ignorance of them and the 2 proposed lower competitions. Blinkered frothing at the mouth seems to be de rigeur, albeit over genuine concerns, as it has been since last August.

Oh for a box, to think outwith.

You seem to be overestimating the appetite for rugby throughout Europe.The smaller teams that you want to bring in the fold will either have to become professional or suffer repeated hammerings.The cost of sustaining a professional team is huge and imo there is no way this new deal will subsidise the 2nd and 3rd tier teams.It will be just like soccer where all the top teams cream off the big money and you have a lack of competition with the same teams contesting the leagues/cups year in year out.

LordDowlais wrote:So, I will ask again, what are the motives behind the fiasco of changing the HC ? At first I thought it was because the French did not want it clashing with the T14, but now the whole money thing has raised it's ugly head, so who is pushing for what ?

Pushing for more Wins. Simple. Laying the framework for more wins. Simple. Wins mean more kudos. More kudos (reputation) means bigger negotiating prowess when sponsorship deals are discussed. Plus better players are attracted to play for winning sides.

Winning perpetuates success. That's what the English and French want more of. Their own League titles and the top European Competition. There are legacies to build into this new century and they want to get cracking.

SecretFly wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Now that the HC is a success for the 6N, shouldn't it evolve to increase the standard of rugby elsewhere, such as Germany, Georgia, Portugal, Russia, etc. Something like a third tier competition perhaps, or have some parties forgotten those initial motives now that they're raking in the shekels? The Amlin is not such a success - shouldn't it evolve into a more meaningful competition to enhance the depth of the standard of rugby?

Show me a viable solution to making the Amlin or some other competiton successful and I'd accept it but I don't really believe there is one as the appetite isn't there for low level cup competitions.Also your post doens't address my point,this new competition is in no way an evolution that will increase the standard of rugby elsewhere.

Don't you mean new competitionS?

Amlinv2 will be more successful by eliminating the teams that are regularly outclassed in the pool stages (with them competing in a 3rd tier). If someone is hungry, there's appetite for bread and water, just as much as cake and jelly.

The standard of rugby elsewhere would be increased by a cross-border competition for clubs/regions/provinces of Tier 2 countries (3rd tier), much as it has for Tier 1 countries for the last couple of decades, or, at least, there seems to be precedence for the theory.

So, any mention of salary caps in this here new deal and new adventure? Not much fun being a Tier1 side with half or less the funding another Tier 1 side throws at the competition. That's Premiership football...that's just 'equality' image without the truth backing it up;...that's a competition where a select number of sides drive to the top four or five positions and stay there - kept there by money and the players they can buy and suck away from other lesser teams.

Exeter did OK against Leinster, and I'm pretty sure all concerned at Sandy Park had fun.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Exeter did OK against Leinster, and I'm pretty sure all concerned at Sandy Park had fun.

Yeah...keep going, Dubbelyaw. England's French buddies??? They're on a level playing field with the rest of Europe?

Notch wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

greytiger wrote:This is a club competition though Notch. Not one for Unions, but participating leagues share the spoils evenly.

[ed] I suppose the Rabo unions could still allocate at least one team from each though.

No it's not,Ireland and Wales don't have clubs.I'm not sure about Scotland.The HC was setup to provide a cross border competiton for the various teams in Europe,it was setup by the Unions and it was done to increase the standard of rugby across the board.Now that it's a success the PRL and some of the French clubs want to change it so that they benefit and screw the rest.

This is essentially the English and French clubs seizing control of an initiative by each countries respective Unions.

You're on the wrong v02 rugby section then mate.
Hairsplitter.

SecretFly wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Exeter did OK against Leinster, and I'm pretty sure all concerned at Sandy Park had fun.

Yeah...keep going, Dubbelyaw. England's French buddies??? They're on a level playing field with the rest of Europe?

We had fun against Clermont, too, though the results weren't quite as close.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Going by this seasons rankings, the Amlin Cup entrants from the Rabo would be Connacht/Treviso (whoever misses out on the play-off), Cardiff Blues, Edinburgh, Dragons, and Zebre (all of which have HEC experience, and two have HEC semi-final experience). Surely having sides like that in the Amlin from the off would make it far more competitive? That said it will also make the chances of Stade Buccarest (or what ever minnow sides make it) of getting anywhere so remote that there would be some prison shaming scores.

It might be more competitve but imo it still won't be a success.Fans won't turn up to watch it as it's a 2nd tier comp and there isn't the interest among the rugby public to travel to another country to watch mid table English/French/Celtic teams.This is all imo but I just can't see there being much interest in a 2nd tier Euro comp for years,rugby just isn't a big enough sport yet.

I have to agree asoreleftshoulder, to compare it to the Uefa cup I think is fair, a lot of teams actually think of it as a drawback, the thur night games effect thier weekend performances in the league and thier isn't enough money in it to make it worthwhile for them (unless they start eyeing up a final then they will take it serious). Why would the Almin ever be anything else.

The teams that are normally in the Uefa cup have complained to Uefa for over 10 years about it, Uefa said they would strengthen in and make it more rewarding, this hasn't happened and now Uefa is considering ditching the Europa League in favour of extending the Champions League from 32 to 64 teams.

The Uefa cup is just the football version of the Almin, and I believe comparisons can be drawn.

Teams that drop from the Champions League/H-cup will make a go of it, teams that start in it will find in more of a hinderence. (Spurs fans wouldn't be to excited about Uefa cup games next year, and we'll see younth teams put out while they contentrate on the league).

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:So, I will ask again, what are the motives behind the fiasco of changing the HC ? At first I thought it was because the French did not want it clashing with the T14, but now the whole money thing has raised it's ugly head, so who is pushing for what ?

Pushing for more Wins. Simple. Laying the framework for more wins. Simple. Wins mean more kudos. More kudos (reputation) means bigger negotiating prowess when sponsorship deals are discussed. Plus better players are attracted to play for winning sides.

Winning perpetuates success. That's what the English and French want more of. Their own League titles and the top European Competition. There are legacies to build into this new century and they want to get cracking.

So in the words of Freddie Mercury, I want it all, and I want it now. If you are right SF then that would mean a massive two fingers up to the Celts and Italians, who without them, the English and the French would not be in such a postition to demand change as they think they are. Without the Celts and Italians, European rugby would be nothing, likewise the other way around.

Notch - some of the T14 big clubs are failing to deliver good players to the national team. that's true but not entirely clubs faults, french rugby union is to be blamed as well for many reasons.

the AP doesnt have that problem though : salary cap implemented and teams who have EPS members are subsidised.

anyway, this is different subject. I thought you were complaining about less (tv?)money going to the Pro-12 "unions" (or it less teams qualified?). how is that going to make your league automatically look like our failed leagues?

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Exeter did OK against Leinster, and I'm pretty sure all concerned at Sandy Park had fun.

Yeah...keep going, Dubbelyaw. England's French buddies??? They're on a level playing field with the rest of Europe?

We had fun against Clermont, too, though the results weren't quite as close.

Maybe a few extra bucks in your pocket or a few less in theirs and the fun might have been a result??? More diversions and by-passes around an important level-playing-field topic. Them Pro12 lads though...shocking stuff they get away with.

SecretFly wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Exeter did OK against Leinster, and I'm pretty sure all concerned at Sandy Park had fun.

Yeah...keep going, Dubbelyaw. England's French buddies??? They're on a level playing field with the rest of Europe?

We had fun against Clermont, too, though the results weren't quite as close.

Maybe a few extra bucks in your pocket or a few less in theirs and the fun might have been a result??? More diversions and by-passes around an important level-playing-field topic. Them Pro12 lads though...shocking stuff they get away with.

Actually, I'm more concerned that Exeter don't get a fair share of the AP distribution than that Leinster get 3 times as much HC participation money, but that's a different topic.

So tell all, what shocking stuff do Pro12 get away with?

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Exeter did OK against Leinster, and I'm pretty sure all concerned at Sandy Park had fun.

Yeah...keep going, Dubbelyaw. England's French buddies??? They're on a level playing field with the rest of Europe?

We had fun against Clermont, too, though the results weren't quite as close.

Maybe a few extra bucks in your pocket or a few less in theirs and the fun might have been a result??? More diversions and by-passes around an important level-playing-field topic. Them Pro12 lads though...shocking stuff they get away with.

Actually, I'm more concerned that Exeter don't get a fair share of the AP distribution than that Leinster get 3 times as much HC participation money, but that's a different topic.

So tell all, what shocking stuff do Pro12 get away with?

You tell me...Pro12 getting away with 'things' is the reason your PRL have gone to war. Ask them. And again you can't quite mention the French and their multi-millionarie sugar-daddies who sure do spend much of it on nice players as they at the same time complain about Leinster and their cotton-wool 'sleeper troops' players

Kingshu wrote:

I have to agree asoreleftshoulder, to compare it to the Uefa cup I think is fair, a lot of teams actually think of it as a drawback, the thur night games effect thier weekend performances in the league and thier isn't enough money in it to make it worthwhile for them (unless they start eyeing up a final then they will take it serious). Why would the Almin ever be anything else.

The teams that are normally in the Uefa cup have complained to Uefa for over 10 years about it, Uefa said they would strengthen in and make it more rewarding, this hasn't happened and now Uefa is considering ditching the Europa League in favour of extending the Champions League from 32 to 64 teams.

The Uefa cup is just the football version of the Almin, and I believe comparisons can be drawn.

Teams that drop from the Champions League/H-cup will make a go of it, teams that start in it will find in more of a hinderence. (Spurs fans wouldn't be to excited about Uefa cup games next year, and we'll see younth teams put out while they contentrate on the league).

Yeah I was going to compare it to the Europa league but I think it's worse that that.Soccer has professional leagues with large support bases in nearly every country in Europe and it still can't generate much interest in it's 2nd tier European competition.Rugby has none of that and some people are suggesting a 3rd tier comp,unless it is heavily subsidised by the BT money I can't see how that can work and there has been no moention of anything like that so far,it's all been about how much more the teams already at the top will make.

Mind you if you finish 8th in your domestic league you have a chance and th ebig cherry, in Football in way more selective and harder to get into Champions league.

But if 2nd tier would struggle, 3rd tier would hardly even register.

IMO the smaller europen teams should be in the 2nd tier as 3rd tier will generate no intrest.

I've said before the Celtic Idea of a 32 team H-cup, wasn't bad. It leaves room for there to be a big cup comp below that (subadised from the H-cup) it would have maybe only 6 top flight teams, the rest would be championship teams, French div 1, and European developing teams. it would give the Russian teams a chance of making the final or later stages, which would grow th egame

SecretFly wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:If this is the agreement that it went through because the money was more important to the unions than anything else. Any offer wasn't forced on anyone. We've had months of "sod them, we don't need them, we'll join up with the US/SANZAR/whoever". Instead we have a potential system (and I'm still not convinced it'll be what has been suggested) where they've given away a hell of a lot for some more cash (and relatively less).

So now after all this time, you're agreeing with me??? Hammer, you cad, sir

Not sure if I'm agreeing or not. I'm saying it looks like the PRO12 unions have sold out for some more (relatively less) cash. There is no way I ever expected them to agree with the initial proposal. I thought it would just be a starting point for the negotiations (which is why I'm still not convinced it's true).

However if it is true and you're all peed over it you should write to your union to demand an explination of why they caved so dramatically. Was just for the extra money?

This has always been a desire by the French and English clubs to moved from 2 competitions between 6 unions (and extras) to 2 competitions between 3 leagues (with another competition with extras). That is what they wanted and it looks like the unions have agreed it's the way forward. Either the unions couldn't live without the money generated by the involvement of the French and English, or they agree with the way forward, or they love cross-border competition so much they'd have it in any format or (my favourite) it's not actually been agreed.

Agreed with me in the sense that giving "away a hell of a lot for more cash" is caving in.

I've been saying such a conclusion is what I've been arguing against from day one. Now, you're agreeing that such a conclusion (if it is true - I doubt it too) is caving in.

The BT extra money the English clubs get will be spent on stadia not players as they dont get subsidised by the taxpayer like the french clubs or Llanelli or even dare I say it Ravenhill......No-one seems or knows to query the massive french tv deal.

The RFU would have loved to put just three/four teams of elite EQ players into a euro comp but never took the step to contract the players. Those that say the french game is in disarray should pause to consider that they now have over thirty professional clubs and more access for fans than the rest of the UK put together. The french have in general prioritised their domestic league over euro comps and in the long run will pay dividends. The English clubs need to catch up and the RFU and PRL know it.

The BT deal is just a start, there is enormous scope for further deals and domestic competitions, which should be the focus, rather than the protracted debates and dealing with vested interests of unaccountable Union hacks.

As a ST holder I want to see a league with the best English players on the pitch, anything else in terms of games is a bonus. Those that have gone with a top down structure take a significant strategic risk and they need to consistently take the correct decisions, time will tell.

SecretFly wrote:Agreed with me in the sense that giving "away a hell of a lot for more cash" is caving in.

I've been saying such a conclusion is what I've been arguing against from day one. Now, you're agreeing that such a conclusion (if it is true - I doubt it too) is caving in.

I'm not saying it's bad. It's great for the English and French clubs because they're getting exactly what they wanted. But the unions have definitely caved (if true)

I'd somehow missed in the previous debates on this that the HEC was initially set up by the 6N - which explains the enormous mess that it is now.

Essentially you have a governance structure where decision-making is aligned with the unions, but the competition is actually contested by whatever sits below the unions and national representative sides - i.e. the clubs, provinces, regions, whatever-the-Italians-and-Scots have.

That reflects where rugby was in the late 90s/early 2000s, when it wasn't clear what form professionalism would take or how sustainable the emerging models would be. But it was never going to sit comfortably with the English and French club structure for long.

So now, you have a situation where 4 unions - but only 12 teams - control about half the money and voting power, and 2 unions - but 26 teams - control the other half. That's a circle you can't square, because the Rabo unions are arguing from the perspective of the unions, and the French and English clubs are arguing from the perspective of clubs.

The PRL have made it very clear that they're not prepared to continue with the tournament as it's currently structured. In fact, they've served notice on the current competition altogether: it will cease to exist after next year. The LNR's position is a little less clear (they are French) but seems to be that they want a European tournament but only if it's different from the current one. If the Guardian's article is to be believed then there's enough money in the BT pot that the English clubs have the ability to either:

a) give everyone more money while reorganising the governance to be aligned at team level
b) walk away and still survive.

The options for the Rabo unions were always limited. You can have no tournament, a new tournament without the English on your own terms or a new tournament negotiated with the English. I've left the French out of this as I can't predict what they would do or what they want.

I don't know whether to be amused or incensed by the ongoing insistence that it's a moneygrab by the English. That some Rabo officials seem to be using that sort of language smacks of desperation to me. No-one calls it a moneygrab that more of the UK tax take is spent on England than on Scotland or Wales, because it's not sensible to look at it at a country level; it's much more to do with the population of the countries. If you're bringing more money to the table and everyone is getting more, you're not exactly playing beggar-my-neighbour, even if you are asking for the distribution to be more in line with the number of teams that the league has to support.

The 20 teams in the Heineken Cup would be made up of the top six in that previous season's Aviva Premiership, Top 14 and RaboDirect Pro 12 with the profits shared equally by the three leagues. The other two places would not go to the holders and the winners of the Amlin Cup, but would be decided by a play-off involving the sides who finished seventh and eighth in their respective divisions.

This raises the tantalising prospect of an Amlin (or HEC) winner not being in the following year's competition, yet earning qualification for an arch enemy... interesting dilemma!
If say a team reached the Cup quarters, would they be better financially to give up on the prospect of two further cup games in favour of consolidating their league position for six HEC games the following season? This would certainly devalue the Amlin and possible the HEC as well.

"The deal we have with BT Vision will generate so much extra revenue that even though the money would be split equally between the three leagues, the Celtic countries and Italy will receive more than they do now. They may be getting smaller slices but the cake will be far bigger."

Everyone gets more money... except the English and French each get an 8% increase of the pot and the Irish/Welsh/Scots/Italy lose 17% - seriously who is going to sign up for that?

The Great Aukster wrote:
Everyone gets more money... except the English and French each get an 8% increase of the pot and the Irish/Welsh/Scots/Italy lose 17% - seriously who is going to sign up for that?

Apparently the Pro12 unions. If true (a very important caveat while this is based on something someone in a pub told a guardian reporter)

The Great Aukster wrote:

"The deal we have with BT Vision will generate so much extra revenue that even though the money would be split equally between the three leagues, the Celtic countries and Italy will receive more than they do now. They may be getting smaller slices but the cake will be far bigger."

Everyone gets more money... except the English and French each get an 8% increase of the pot and the Irish/Welsh/Scots/Italy lose 17% - seriously who is going to sign up for that?

Let's imagine that at the moment we earn £1000 per month and share it so that you get £500 and I get £500. Then I get a better job and our total pooled income goes up to £2000 per month. I offer to continue to share it with you, as long as I get £1320 and you get £680. It only seems fair to me, because I've got a spouse and 3 kids to feed, and you've only got a spouse and 1 kid.

You may not like it, but not accepting the deal would be cutting off your nose to spite your face.

HammerofThunor wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Agreed with me in the sense that giving "away a hell of a lot for more cash" is caving in.

I've been saying such a conclusion is what I've been arguing against from day one. Now, you're agreeing that such a conclusion (if it is true - I doubt it too) is caving in.

I'm not saying it's bad. It's great for the English and French clubs because they're getting exactly what they wanted. But the unions have definitely caved (if true)

Of course you're not saying it's bad. It didn't exactly go above my head that you are English

But you are admitting it's a 'cave in' (if it happened). And it is (if it happened). A cave-in in anyone's language ain't good for the side caving-in.

But all along, the story was that's its best for everyone in Europe. That story is dead now (if the new one is true). It'll now be marketed for what it always was by the French and British press - a Pro12 ("Celtic cousins") cave-in. And they'll feel comfortable with that language ...and so do you. It's power talk and that what this has always been about. Not a fight for what's best for European rugby but a power exertion exercise. Lovely stuff.

Also the split of the pot is the main reason why the PRL sold their own games. That way they can say "you don't like the split of the money? How much did you put in again?" Where as currently the ERC handle it together.

I see cave in more as unable to take the guilt of taking so much while giving so little. Rather than giving a little and settling in a mid point it's completely collapsed (generally because it had little support). You don't need much force for a cave in if there is no support. It's not all about power.

Poorfour wrote:
Let's imagine that at the moment we earn £1000 per month and share it so that you get £500 and I get £500. Then I get a better job and our total pooled income goes up to £2000 per month. I offer to continue to share it with you, as long as I get £1320 and you get £680. It only seems fair to me, because I've got a spouse and 3 kids to feed, and you've only got a spouse and 1 kid.

You may not like it, but not accepting the deal would be cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Let's say you didn't earn the money? Let's say you didn't get a better job. Let's say it's a loan that was meant to be equally distributed?

BTW...back to money. It's about participation. The money is being used to soothe less participation by certain Nations.

SecretFly wrote:

Poorfour wrote:
Let's imagine that at the moment we earn £1000 per month and share it so that you get £500 and I get £500. Then I get a better job and our total pooled income goes up to £2000 per month. I offer to continue to share it with you, as long as I get £1320 and you get £680. It only seems fair to me, because I've got a spouse and 3 kids to feed, and you've only got a spouse and 1 kid.

You may not like it, but not accepting the deal would be cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Let's say you didn't earn the money? Let's say you didn't get a better job. Let's say it's a loan that was meant to be equally?

BTW...back to money. It's about participation. The money is being used to soothe less participation by certain Nations.

Or participation is given up by certain Nations to get more money

And on inconsistencies in the story

1) It was stated by PRL representatives that they 'allow' top 4 from the pro12 with a couple more spots to fill up a couple nations. That's not mentioned at all.

2) It's stated that every gets more but also that the TV deal hasn't been finalised. How do they how much everyone will get if the deal is unsure

Smells fishy to me

HammerofThunor wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Poorfour wrote:
Let's imagine that at the moment we earn £1000 per month and share it so that you get £500 and I get £500. Then I get a better job and our total pooled income goes up to £2000 per month. I offer to continue to share it with you, as long as I get £1320 and you get £680. It only seems fair to me, because I've got a spouse and 3 kids to feed, and you've only got a spouse and 1 kid.

You may not like it, but not accepting the deal would be cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Let's say you didn't earn the money? Let's say you didn't get a better job. Let's say it's a loan that was meant to be equally?

BTW...back to money. It's about participation. The money is being used to soothe less participation by certain Nations.

Or participation is given up by certain Nations to get more money

No, let's keep to the "you didn't earn the money" bit first.

SecretFly wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Poorfour wrote:
Let's imagine that at the moment we earn £1000 per month and share it so that you get £500 and I get £500. Then I get a better job and our total pooled income goes up to £2000 per month. I offer to continue to share it with you, as long as I get £1320 and you get £680. It only seems fair to me, because I've got a spouse and 3 kids to feed, and you've only got a spouse and 1 kid.

You may not like it, but not accepting the deal would be cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Let's say you didn't earn the money? Let's say you didn't get a better job. Let's say it's a loan that was meant to be equally?

BTW...back to money. It's about participation. The money is being used to soothe less participation by certain Nations.

Or participation is given up by certain Nations to get more money

No, let's keep to the "you didn't earn the money" bit first.

Nope, you've lost me. That analogy's been stretched further than it will go. What are you getting at? The BT deal is "earned" money in that PRL will be paid it for providing access to its games. Everything suggests it's a better deal than the one ERC have negotiated with Sky. It certainly isn't a loan.

Now we can argue about whether PRL had the right to go and negotiate the deal, but:
1) It's certain that they had the right to negotiate a deal for their domestic league
2) It's also certain that they've served notice on the current ERC tournaments.
3) It's interesting that ERC have negotiated an extended deal with Sky, but to show what? The current tournaments cease to exist at the end of next season. If they've negotiated the right to show any successor tournament, have they been granted that right by the unions? That wasn't clear from anything I've read.
4) It seems likely that PRL hadn't technically been given the right to negotiate for European competitions by the RFU (who, IIRC, technically control that right). However, if PRL's lawyers have any sense, the deal they've negotiated with BT will say something like "...and if you can give us access to European games, we'll pay you x much extra."

Bottom line is, it's a grey area but a strong negotiating tactic. PRL is offering a better deal for a subset of matches than ERC is offering for the whole caboodle. ERC won't even be able to match the deal it currently has if the English or French are out.