Future European Comp

First topic message reminder :

Progress made when ERC not involved.http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/may/20/heineken-cup-tv-deal

HammerofThunor wrote:Probably not. Personally I hope it does go down the swanny. I've got a bit bored of it (English clubs not being good enough and all that) and something different would be nice.

Maybe expand on the Anglo-Welsh, bring in the French and Irish, might as well include the Scots and Italians. Probably need a couple of tiers though or it'll be too big. Maybe even have a third and invite a load more countries in. Might be reasonable.

I totally disagree!!!!!!!!!

I'd say we expand the Pro12, bring in the English and French. Probably need a couple of tiers though or it'll be too big. Maybe even have a third and invite a load more countries in. Might be reasonable.

Do you think that in the H-cup talks, if the pro-12 unions are being forced to make changes,
should they instist that the French and English teams that enter the H-cup have no more than 5 players that cannot represent the union the team belongs to?

SecretFly wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Probably not. Personally I hope it does go down the swanny. I've got a bit bored of it (English clubs not being good enough and all that) and something different would be nice.

Maybe expand on the Anglo-Welsh, bring in the French and Irish, might as well include the Scots and Italians. Probably need a couple of tiers though or it'll be too big. Maybe even have a third and invite a load more countries in. Might be reasonable.

I totally disagree!!!!!!!!!

I'd say we expand the Pro12, bring in the English and French. Probably need a couple of tiers though or it'll be too big. Maybe even have a third and invite a load more countries in. Might be reasonable.

That sounds awful! Everyone knows the PRO12 is rubbish. Adding the English and French and a 3rd tier isn't going to help it

Kingshu wrote:Do you think that in the H-cup talks, if the pro-12 unions are being forced to make changes,
should they instist that the French and English teams that enter the H-cup have no more than 5 players that cannot represent the union the team belongs to?

They can ask for anything they want. However I don't think you'll get an agreement on that (even though I think it would be great).

A negotiation usually moves to a conclusion on compromise. So yes, I feel that if the Pro12 compromise on anything, and they are being asked to compromise on a lot...then compromise is a two way process. English and French should be coming out of negotiations with something less too.
So, either salary caps for European cup involvement, which would see French sides in particular have to select dedicated players from their squads that would come in under a certain agreed salary cap.... or the automatic HC spots goes down from 6 to 5.

Compromise must be seen to have happened in a real way.

Not enforceable due to European Employment Laws, would only take one team to take it to court to be over turned

SecretFly wrote:A negotiation usually moves to a conclusion on compromise. So yes, I feel that if the Pro12 compromise on anything, and they are being asked to compromise on a lot...then compromise is a two way process. English and French should be coming out of negotiations with something less too.
So, either salary caps for European cup involvement, which would see French sides in particular have to select dedicated players from their squads that would come in under a certain agreed salary cap.... or the automatic HC spots goes down from 6 to 5.

Compromise must be seen to have happened in a real way.

Why must compromise be seen?

We still haven't heard anything official regarding that Guardian article have we? I smell cowpat

Broadland boy, I think it would be. It does preclude someone getting employed. It just restricts them from a European competition. You could easily say International qualifications aren't legal if you say that.

Secretfly 6,6 and 8 is what a few of us have been asking for some time.

It is a compromise. The Pro12 sides surely can't bargain for a more generous solution than that.

It would actually help strengthen the Pro12. Many of us have criticised the Pro12 for basically being a poor/soft league with no qualification.

Actual proper qualification would give games more importance.

It would still mean all countries get a representation in the HC but on merit instead of piggybacking someone else's glory or automatically being involved.

Internationals are representative not the day job of the players, it would be a restriction of trade. Why do you think the RFU give financial incentive to have a high number of EQ players in the match squad rather than enforcing it. Also IIRC football tried to do it but couldn't.

beshocked wrote:Secretfly 6,6 and 8 is what a few of us have been asking for some time.

It is a compromise. The Pro12 sides surely can't bargain for a more generous solution than that.

It would actually help strengthen the Pro12. Many of us have criticised the Pro12 for basically being a poor/soft league with no qualification.

Actual proper qualification would give games more importance.

It would still mean all countries get a representation in the HC but on merit instead of piggybacking someone else's glory or automatically being involved.

Except the English and French

broadlandboy wrote:Internationals are representative not the day job of the players, it would be a restriction of trade. Why do you think the RFU give financial incentive to have a high number of EQ players in the match squad rather than enforcing it. Also IIRC football tried to do it but couldn't.

True, I'm not sure of the ins and outs of it. But I do think it would be possible for a restriction in a single, relatively small competition. Perhaps. But irrelevant becuase they wouldn't agree to it anyway.

Broadlandboy,

It is not a restriction of trade based on nationality.

Many guys who represent Ireland are not Irish citizens. They are from New Zealand or Britain or Australia or South Africa and qualify via residency or because their parents and grandparents are from there.

Because your passport/nationality does not matter it cannot be seems as restriction of trade based on nationality.

It is merely a criteria required for the job. A British citizen who has played for Scotland would not pass the criteria needed to be English Qualified. A guy who has lived in USA all his life whose father's father was born in England would be English Qualified.

Have no fear of the legalities.

red_stag wrote:Broadlandboy,

It is not a restriction of trade based on nationality.

Many guys who represent Ireland are not Irish citizens. They are from New Zealand or Britain or Australia or South Africa and qualify via residency or because their parents and grandparents are from there.

Because your passport/nationality does not matter it cannot be seems as restriction of trade based on nationality.

It is merely a criteria required for the job. A British citizen who has played for Scotland would not pass the criteria needed to be English Qualified. A guy who has lived in USA all his life whose father's father was born in England would be English Qualified.

Have no fear of the legalities.

Don't you read the Daily Mail? The European Courts are always passing crazy Poopie.

HammerofThunor wrote:

red_stag wrote:Broadlandboy,

It is not a restriction of trade based on nationality.

Many guys who represent Ireland are not Irish citizens. They are from New Zealand or Britain or Australia or South Africa and qualify via residency or because their parents and grandparents are from there.

Because your passport/nationality does not matter it cannot be seems as restriction of trade based on nationality.

It is merely a criteria required for the job. A British citizen who has played for Scotland would not pass the criteria needed to be English Qualified. A guy who has lived in USA all his life whose father's father was born in England would be English Qualified.

Have no fear of the legalities.

Don't you read the Daily Mail? The European Courts are always passing crazy Poopie.

red_stag wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

red_stag wrote:Broadlandboy,

It is not a restriction of trade based on nationality.

Many guys who represent Ireland are not Irish citizens. They are from New Zealand or Britain or Australia or South Africa and qualify via residency or because their parents and grandparents are from there.

Because your passport/nationality does not matter it cannot be seems as restriction of trade based on nationality.

It is merely a criteria required for the job. A British citizen who has played for Scotland would not pass the criteria needed to be English Qualified. A guy who has lived in USA all his life whose father's father was born in England would be English Qualified.

Have no fear of the legalities.

Don't you read the Daily Mail? The European Courts are always passing crazy Poopie.

http://www.shouldireadthedailymail.com/

HammerofThunor wrote:

SecretFly wrote:A negotiation usually moves to a conclusion on compromise. So yes, I feel that if the Pro12 compromise on anything, and they are being asked to compromise on a lot...then compromise is a two way process. English and French should be coming out of negotiations with something less too.
So, either salary caps for European cup involvement, which would see French sides in particular have to select dedicated players from their squads that would come in under a certain agreed salary cap.... or the automatic HC spots goes down from 6 to 5.

Compromise must be seen to have happened in a real way.

Why must compromise be seen?

Because if you can't see it, it hasn't happened.

red_stag wrote:Broadlandboy,

It is not a restriction of trade based on nationality.

Many guys who represent Ireland are not Irish citizens. They are from New Zealand or Britain or Australia or South Africa and qualify via residency or because their parents and grandparents are from there.

Because your passport/nationality does not matter it cannot be seems as restriction of trade based on nationality.

It is merely a criteria required for the job. A British citizen who has played for Scotland would not pass the criteria needed to be English Qualified. A guy who has lived in USA all his life whose father's father was born in England would be English Qualified.

Have no fear of the legalities.

On top of that surley players are headhunted, and companies can head hunt and offer contracts to who they like. You can't take someone to court for not headhunting you. Its not like teams advertise for a fullback recieve CV's and go through an interview process, or we'dd all apply for the big clubs hoping to fluke a prefessional contract.

beshocked wrote:Secretfly 6,6 and 8 is what a few of us have been asking for some time.

It is a compromise. The Pro12 sides surely can't bargain for a more generous solution than that.
It would actually help strengthen the Pro12. Many of us have criticised the Pro12 for basically being a poor/soft league with no qualification.

Actual proper qualification would give games more importance.

It would still mean all countries get a representation in the HC but on merit instead of piggybacking someone else's glory or automatically being involved.

How is 6, 6 and 8 a compromise? That's 6 (already happening), 6 (already happening) and 8 (less than is happening now). That might be what the English and French want (and their right to want it) but it has no relationship to the word 'compromise'.
Compromise means both sides of the argument agree to have less of something so that an agreement can be reached. Compromise isn't "we demanded this and didn't get it so now we've modified our demands and want less." That's not compromise, that's watering down demands.

As for the 'helping strengthen the Pro12'. We'll worry about strengthening our League, thanks all the same It's strong enough and getting stronger. Four or five years ago (when known as the Magners) it was considered a joke. It's not a joke now and if you did take sides like Scarlets, Ospreys, Munster, Ulster, Glasgow or Leinster ...or even Treviso.... as a joke, you might end up with some serious egg on your face.

English and French rugby's disatisfaction with the HC has nothing to do with their yearning to improve Pro12

Definition of compromise from wikipedia

To compromise is to make a deal between different parties where each party gives up part of their demand. In arguments, compromise is a concept of finding agreement through communication, through a mutual acceptance of terms—often involving variations from an original goal or desire.

As it stands the Pro12 countries demand is status quo no?

Secretfly you must acknowledge that with England and France standing shoulder to shoulder they are in a far stronger position. Plus these two together bring in the lion's share of TV revenue.

Sure the Irish are a draw but the solution I have suggested would not harm Ireland's representation. In my hypothetical scenario your beloved 4th region would have scraped into the HC by the skin of it's teeth.

As it stands your beloved 4th region can only reach the HC by hanging onto the coat tails of another Irish region.

Do you disagree so vehemently with the idea of qualifying by merit?


The English and French stance is currently to cut the Pro12 representation to 6. My suggestion would be only it cut it by 2 to 8.

The likes of Zebre and Edinburgh would be more suited to the Amlin.

Please tell me what you actually disagree about?

The Pro12 countries are not in a position of strength.

beshocked wrote:Definition of compromise from wikipedia

To compromise is to make a deal between different parties where each party gives up part of their demand. In arguments, compromise is a concept of finding agreement through communication, through a mutual acceptance of terms—often involving variations from an original goal or desire.

As it stands the Pro12 countries demand is status quo no?

Secretfly you must acknowledge that with England and France standing shoulder to shoulder they are in a far stronger position. Plus these two together bring in the lion's share of TV revenue.

Sure the Irish are a draw but the solution I have suggested would not harm Ireland's representation. In my hypothetical scenario your beloved 4th region would have scraped into the HC by the skin of it's teeth.

As it stands your beloved 4th region can only reach the HC by hanging onto the coat tails of another Irish region.

Do you disagree so vehemently with the idea of qualifying by merit?


The English and French stance is currently to cut the Pro12 representation to 6. My suggestion would be only it cut it by 2 to 8.

The likes of Zebre and Edinburgh would be more suited to the Amlin.

Please tell me what you actually disagree about?

The Pro12 countries are not in a position of strength.

6,6,8 fine

In return English and French teams in the H-cup are only allowed to name 5 players that cannot represent thier Union at international level, in their squad.

DEAL?

Kingshu wrote:

beshocked wrote:Definition of compromise from wikipedia

To compromise is to make a deal between different parties where each party gives up part of their demand. In arguments, compromise is a concept of finding agreement through communication, through a mutual acceptance of terms—often involving variations from an original goal or desire.

As it stands the Pro12 countries demand is status quo no?

Secretfly you must acknowledge that with England and France standing shoulder to shoulder they are in a far stronger position. Plus these two together bring in the lion's share of TV revenue.

Sure the Irish are a draw but the solution I have suggested would not harm Ireland's representation. In my hypothetical scenario your beloved 4th region would have scraped into the HC by the skin of it's teeth.

As it stands your beloved 4th region can only reach the HC by hanging onto the coat tails of another Irish region.

Do you disagree so vehemently with the idea of qualifying by merit?


The English and French stance is currently to cut the Pro12 representation to 6. My suggestion would be only it cut it by 2 to 8.

The likes of Zebre and Edinburgh would be more suited to the Amlin.

Please tell me what you actually disagree about?

The Pro12 countries are not in a position of strength.

6,6,8 fine

In return English and French teams in the H-cup are only allowed to name 5 players that cannot represent thier Union at international level, in their squad.

DEAL?

No. We've already compromised with giving you a couple of extra spots. You're asking too much.

Besides, you only compromise if you don't get your original demands met. If that happens why on earth would they give anything back?

HammerofThunor wrote:

Kingshu wrote:

beshocked wrote:Definition of compromise from wikipedia

To compromise is to make a deal between different parties where each party gives up part of their demand. In arguments, compromise is a concept of finding agreement through communication, through a mutual acceptance of terms—often involving variations from an original goal or desire.

As it stands the Pro12 countries demand is status quo no?

Secretfly you must acknowledge that with England and France standing shoulder to shoulder they are in a far stronger position. Plus these two together bring in the lion's share of TV revenue.

Sure the Irish are a draw but the solution I have suggested would not harm Ireland's representation. In my hypothetical scenario your beloved 4th region would have scraped into the HC by the skin of it's teeth.

As it stands your beloved 4th region can only reach the HC by hanging onto the coat tails of another Irish region.

Do you disagree so vehemently with the idea of qualifying by merit?


The English and French stance is currently to cut the Pro12 representation to 6. My suggestion would be only it cut it by 2 to 8.

The likes of Zebre and Edinburgh would be more suited to the Amlin.

Please tell me what you actually disagree about?

The Pro12 countries are not in a position of strength.

6,6,8 fine

In return English and French teams in the H-cup are only allowed to name 5 players that cannot represent thier Union at international level, in their squad.

DEAL?

No. We've already compromised with giving you a couple of extra spots. You're asking too much.

Besides, you only compromise if you don't get your original demands met. If that happens why on earth would they give anything back?

You not giving us anything, Hammer. You don't own the prospective European event...and won't do so, if one exists. The Pro 12 sides won't be guests in an English and French competition who can be dropped quickly if they give lip to their betters. It'll be a contract and the other Unions/clubs won't sell themselves into slavery. Ownership for all again I'm afraid.

And no, there has been no compromise from English and French on the status quo. The trick to getting something is to listen to the other guys saying "Oh you want A, B and C from me? Well do D and E and I might do A and B."
Compromise in that situation is usually that the guys doing the demanding don't want to do D and E but agree to D to push along the negotiations. Then the guys being asked for A, B and C give in and agree to A.

8 is A. What's the English and French's D. Something that they're going to do to their own current structures that is less than they have now?

SecretFly wrote:
As for the 'helping strengthen the Pro12'. We'll worry about strengthening our League, thanks all the same It's strong enough and getting stronger. Four or five years ago (when known as the Magners) it was considered a joke. It's not a joke now and if you did take sides like Scarlets, Ospreys, Munster, Ulster, Glasgow or Leinster ...or even Treviso.... as a joke, you might end up with some serious egg on your face.

Good point and one people should take note of.

The league is getting more and more intense. The teams in the league now realise that winning it bring them more prestige. It helps build the reputation to the team and they'll then get more fans etc.

Just like French teams took a while to take the HEC seriously, the Pro 12 is getting there. The swapping and changing of teams in the early days ment the league was a bit unstable and the new teams took some time to create their own history. Its like going into a new class. At first you see a bunch of faces but after a while you see different personalities. It takes time.

The Welsh teams have been weakened but thats only until they get their house in order. Treviso, Ulster, Glasgow and Connacht have really strengthened over the last 2 or 3 years.

As for resting players, all the top teams do it! Clermont rested their whole team in between quarter and semi finals of the HEC. Toulouse do it, Toulon, Leicester tigers etc.

Actually Fly the starting point is nothing. Competition ends next season. This is looking at forming a whole new structure.

And whatever is agreed is agreed. Compromise or not.

Kingshu I don't think the Pro12 is in a position to make demands like that.

Secretfly some of the Pro12 attendances aren't exactly stellar are they?

A derby match like Glasgow vs Edinburgh only gets 6k.

700 people turned up to watch Zebre vs Cardiff.

Average of 8k attendance compared to 12k of the AP.

Profitius with no virtually no qualification for the HC you will always be seen as a lower intense league. There is less to play for.

No I don't believe that for example Zebre or Edinburgh would suffer not being in the HC. They might actually win some pool games in the Amlin next season.

Perhaps for example Edinburgh would have tried harder in the Pro12 in the last two seasons if they didn't have that safety net.

Ditto even Munster whose bread and butter was quite obviously the HC this season.

It would be refreshing to see Connacht qualify by their own merit instead of riding the coat tails of the better Irish regions.


If you Irish dealt with the French and English separate from your Pro12 colleagues you might benefit.

Currently you are dealing with the French and English as the Pro12 - you have 11 spaces in the HC which is ludicrous.

By the way I do understand you are separate countries but that was your choice when setting up the Pro12.

8 out of 12 would be more fair. As I said in my first sentence you are not in a position to make demands to the French and English.

As it stands Ireland has 100% representation in the HC, Wales - 75% (don't hear the Welsh complaining Dragons aren't in the HC by the way), Scotland 100%, Italy - 100%

Compare that to the AP's 50% and the French's 50%.

Firstly Ireland is 75%, Connacht entered due to Leinster winning the Almin,
If thats an issue, why are you not complaining about Perpignan, getting in on Toulons win??

"you are not in a position to make demands to the French and English."

says you, I think that a majority and 2/3 of the votes makes a strong starting postition.

French and English united? Doesn't seam so,

"FFR president Pierre Camou summoned senior representatives of the six competing nations amid signs that the French clubs, far from quitting, are willing to get back to the negotiating table.

Camou, a retired 68-yearold banker, is understood to have backed up his call for the French clubs to get back in line by warning that they will be replaced in Europe if necessary by makeshift French teams chosen on a regional basis.
"

Sure even the RFU are fence sitting waiting the outcome to see if they will support the clubs over the BT deal or not.

"RFU refuses to endorse Premiership Rugby's bumper £152 million TV rights deal with BT vision "

It appears that Premiership Rugby are the ones becoming more and more isolated.

Kingshu in the 2013/14 HC season Ireland will have 100% representation.

The solution I suggested would have no one piggybacking another team's glory. I don't approve of Perpignan either.

I said if the English and French stay united they hold the power.

By the way I am talking about financially, English and French hold the power.


If Camou is saying that he's playing a very dangerous game.

I really can't understand why you are so upset about getting a slice of a bigger pie anyway.

There was a lot there, beshocked. I'll see how I get on by selecting some of it to comment on:

"Average of 8k attendance compared to 12k of the AP."

That's on average four thousand less than AP per game?
AP being the league that started in 1987 and includes some of the oldest, most established rugby clubs in the world, in a relatively compact geographical territory?
Pro12 being a League that started in 2001 and only got around to including the Italians in 2010, and stretches from the west of Ireland to Italy?
A league that has a 12 year history showing on average four thousand less people per game than a League that has a 26 year history?
I wonder what the average was for the English Premiership back in 1999 when it was 12 years in? Surely the averages haven't remained static all this time, beshocked?
Meanwhile Top14 have on average 14k per game. Does that suggest the Top14 execs will be turning up looking for you to change your format to catch up with them?

Kingshu has already taken care of the "100%" idea. Ireland do not have 100% representation by right, they have 100% representation by performances IN European competition. Had an English club won the HC this year, they'd have their seventh side in HC next season. Just because the rules don't seem to be benefiting you today doesn't mean you always have to rewrite them to make them benefit you tomorrow. Plus Prizes exist for performances IN European competition not simply for participation - despite England and France still holding the bulk of the 'participation' figures... not on merit but on the lucky number six.

Yes, we all decided for ourselves to start the Pro12 league, and we decided to invite the Italians, and we'll decided how we run our own league, and we are equal owners of the present European competitions, and we'll continue to be equal owners of any new European competitions (either as four Unions or a combination of Unions and club administators). We'll decide what we are within our league, not the outsiders trying to influence how we regard ourselves. I'm Irish, not Italian or Scottish. Ours is a pan-European League and it won't be watered down through semantics into something it isn't. It is what it is. Italian sides are 'foreign' sides to me, Irish ones aint.

We all need each other because we all know European rugby continues to go in only one direction; and that fans, sponsorship and funding are going with it - up. You can't offer that as a product unless you have it. And you won't get it unless people do more than "understand" the complexities of European rugby - especially a League that incorporates four Nations. We need more than undestanding - we need practical appreciation. Ownership of any new format will be shared - again. So let's hope all sides realise that. There'll be no going back to 'big fish - little fish'.

Kingshu wrote:Firstly Ireland is 75%, Connacht entered due to Leinster winning the Almin,
If thats an issue, why are you not complaining about Perpignan, getting in on Toulons win??

"you are not in a position to make demands to the French and English."

says you, I think that a majority and 2/3 of the votes makes a strong starting postition.

French and English united? Doesn't seam so,

"FFR president Pierre Camou summoned senior representatives of the six competing nations amid signs that the French clubs, far from quitting, are willing to get back to the negotiating table.

Camou, a retired 68-yearold banker, is understood to have backed up his call for the French clubs to get back in line by warning that they will be replaced in Europe if necessary by makeshift French teams chosen on a regional basis.
"

That's the FFR. The LNR are the ones calling for change. And one of their biggest problems is with the FFR. They basically do nothing for the clubs whatsoever (hence all the talk about moving away from French international players). They're in a very similar position to the way it was in England around 2006. It came to head with the French when the FFR took back all their votes for the ERC from the LNR to elect Lux. I can see one of the biggest impacts of this is some sort of deal between the FFR and LNR (possibly like the EPS deal in England).

Sure even the RFU are fence sitting waiting the outcome to see if they will support the clubs over the BT deal or not.

"RFU refuses to endorse Premiership Rugby's bumper £152 million TV rights deal with BT vision "

It appears that Premiership Rugby are the ones becoming more and more isolated.

The RFU haven't suggested anywhere that they wouldn't endorse the agreement. They also haven't suggested they will. Saying they refused suggests they said they won't.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/9544678/RFU-refuses-to-endorse-Premiership-Rugbys-bumper-152-million-TV-rights-deal-with-BT-vision.html

“While the RFU has not given consent to Premiership Rugby to grant European Broadcasting Rights,"


Seams to me each Union has 2 votes, FFR and RFU gave one of thiers each to their clubs.

If we call it English (backed up by French) call for change in H-cup and Pro 12.

So
IRFU x2
FIR x 2
SRU x 2
WRU X 1
RRW x1
RFU x 1
Premiership Rugby x 1
FFR x 1
LNR x 1


on one side you have
IRFU x2
FIR x 2
SRU x 2
WRU X 1
RRW x1

on the other
LNR x 1
Premiership Rugby x 1

In the middle
RFU x 1 are fench sitting and not backing up Premiership Rugby fully
FFR x 1 has called for the French clubs to get back in line


I don't see Premiership Rugbys demands for change, being from the power position.

In fact you can see if FFR and LNR patch up thier differences and reach and agreement with each other, what they wish (the final being bought forward, and teams reduced) could be agreed on by the other Unions, which would leave Premiership Rugby on thier own with thier own Union not even backing them up.

I believe that France and England have 5 votes each, but each voter has the power of veto over certain matters. However, that's irrelevant, or rather, redundant.
Since the Franglos gave notice to leave the ERC, they will have no votes post-2014. The current discussions are whether the Celtalians can persuade the Franglos to rescind their notice and continue with ERC, or whether the Franglos can persuade the Celtalians to join a new ERCv2.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:I believe that France and England have 5 votes each, but each voter has the power of veto over certain matters. However, that's irrelevant, or rather, redundant.
Since the Franglos gave notice to leave the ERC, they will have no votes post-2014. The current discussions are whether the Celtalians can persuade the Franglos to rescind their notice and continue with ERC, or whether the Franglos can persuade the Celtalians to join a new ERCv2.

Oh no! It couldn't possibly be. I have been told by a man who has travelled to the future (OK Hammer of T) and knows for certain sure that there will be no ERC after next season. No possibility of it happening at all. End of story. Wipe her down and fade out.......

On the other hand........ He may be lying about the time travel.......

Judging by the FFR quote above it appears that the FFR are willing to withdraw notice to leave for a slighly changed h-cup, (FFR and LNR will reach an agreement).

so where would that leave Premiership Rugby and their withdrawal? and the fench sitting RFU. It could be that the English clubs are on thier own like 98/99 season?

St John The Enforcer wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:I believe that France and England have 5 votes each, but each voter has the power of veto over certain matters. However, that's irrelevant, or rather, redundant.
Since the Franglos gave notice to leave the ERC, they will have no votes post-2014. The current discussions are whether the Celtalians can persuade the Franglos to rescind their notice and continue with ERC, or whether the Franglos can persuade the Celtalians to join a new ERCv2.

Oh no! It couldn't possibly be. I have been told by a man who has travelled to the future (OK Hammer of T) and knows for certain sure that there will be no ERC after next season. No possibility of it happening at all. End of story. Wipe her down and fade out.......

On the other hand........ He may be lying about the time travel.......

He is - he told me so tomorrow.

I think that the Future European Competition UPgrade should be known by its acronym.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:I believe that France and England have 5 votes each, but each voter has the power of veto over certain matters. However, that's irrelevant, or rather, redundant.
Since the Franglos gave notice to leave the ERC, they will have no votes post-2014. The current discussions are whether the Celtalians can persuade the Franglos to rescind their notice and continue with ERC, or whether the Franglos can persuade the Celtalians to join a new ERCv2.

Oh no! It couldn't possibly be. I have been told by a man who has travelled to the future (OK Hammer of T) and knows for certain sure that there will be no ERC after next season. No possibility of it happening at all. End of story. Wipe her down and fade out.......

On the other hand........ He may be lying about the time travel.......

He is - he told me so tomorrow.

Kingshu wrote:Judging by the FFR quote above it appears that the FFR are willing to withdraw notice to leave for a slighly changed h-cup, (FFR and LNR will reach an agreement).

so where would that leave Premiership Rugby and their withdrawal? and the fench sitting RFU. It could be that the English clubs are on thier own like 98/99 season?

Richer with the BT deal money and no-one to share it with?
That's a possibility (however remote) although as HoT says, there is no HEC after next season and anything may be arranged after that. As I predicted in https://www.606v2.com/t43851-hec-for-whom-the-bell-tolls-18-05-13170000 .

secretfly Ireland have 100% representation in the HC for 2013/14 no matter how you'd like to twist it to suit you. As I said before the solution I suggested means Connacht would not have to hang onto coat tails to qualify.

Quick question: Do you think it's better if Connacht qualify for the HC by hanging onto coat tails or by their own team efforts? Personally I prefer the latter.



I would say 50% higher attendances is a pretty significant amount actually.

Rugby became professional in 1995. It is still a growing sport.

Pro12 is growing too but it is still significantly lower than both the AP and Top 14 in terms of attendances.

Secretfly funnily enough it's you who are in your Pro12 bubble refusing to discuss the possibility of a compromise.

I get the impression you think the Pro12 is the greatest league in the world. Sorry to burst that bubble it isn't.

If all the delegates from the Pro12 are like you there will be no compromise.

There has to be an end-game very, very soon. The 2014/5 season planners need something to plan : Provisional timetables, international venues, TV schedules etc.

A serious xCup must be built on solid foundations

I didn't say there would be no European Competition. I said the ERC (as it is now) will not exist. I don't doubt for one second that there will be a competition of some sort involving all 6 of the current ERC members.

After that I was being an arse.

Judging by the FFR quote above it appears that the FFR are willing to withdraw notice to leave for a slighly changed h-cup, (FFR and LNR will reach an agreement).

There isn't actually a FFR quote in there. Lot's of "was understood to have" or "believed to have" in the same way we're had an article since then that said a deal was "understood to have been made".

HammerofThunor wrote:I didn't say there would be no European Competition. I said the ERC (as it is now) will not exist. I don't doubt for one second that there will be a competition of some sort involving all 6 of the current ERC members.

After that I was being an arse.

beshocked wrote:secretfly Ireland have 100% representation in the HC for 2013/14 no matter how you'd like to twist it to suit you. As I said before the solution I suggested means Connacht would not have to hang onto coat tails to qualify.

Quick question: Do you think it's better if Connacht qualify for the HC by hanging onto coat tails or by their own team efforts? Personally I prefer the latter.



I would say 50% higher attendances is a pretty significant amount actually.

Rugby became professional in 1995. It is still a growing sport.

Pro12 is growing too but it is still significantly lower than both the AP and Top 14 in terms of attendances.

Secretfly funnily enough it's you who are in your Pro12 bubble refusing to discuss the possibility of a compromise.

I get the impression you think the Pro12 is the greatest league in the world. Sorry to burst that bubble it isn't.

If all the delegates from the Pro12 are like you there will be no compromise.

Now there's a 'stung' few paragraphs! Wasn't expecting that tone - did I hit a nerve or two, beshocked?

Compromise remains what it is - two sides giving way to come to a conclusion. You change the definition to suit your clothes all you like, that's what it means. The status quo is what's happening now. The sacrificial changes are being asked of one League and four unions that consist of something called Pro12. That's not compromise. And modification of demands is not compromise. Compromise is compromise.

Ireland's '100% representation' is the extra side they drag into the competition by virtue of how they perform IN the competition rather than always talking about the competition like others seem to do. You don't like that as a standard to live by, then tough - it's called competition on the field - where real rugby exists. The rules weren't created to help Connacht out (a side you seem to be positively obsessed with.) France will have the extra side perk next year.

You'd want Ireland to have only one side in HC because three of them is 75% and four of them is 100%? Ireland one side, England six sides. France six sides. Do you have any clue how to judge fairness in a competition?

The English and French (who can never have 100% involvement) still always have more chances of winning the HC than Irish sides in real and practical terms on the field, where real rugby exists.

You weave your percentage magic around that one too as much as you like but the facts won't change. The HC is top loaded with English and French sides (not there on merit) but there because someone thought up the number six. And lucky number six wasn't always the lucky number. It's grown over the timeframe of the HC, as Ireland's tally remained the same. And yet, poor English and French rugby is again the hard done ones? Read your history of the HC, beshocked, and then tell me about all the wrong that's being done to the poor oppressed and abused English and French.

As for Pro12 being the greatest league in the world????? Nope, that's an old cry from a League next door to us that used to holler it out all the time when the HC was working out to their advantage; and when they sniggered and giggled at the little "Celtic" idiots trying to pretend they were playing man's rugby. There's no sniggering and giggling now. The game just got ultra serious; as the 'compromise' negotiations continue to affirm, and the attempts are made to put the 'Celts' back in their upstart boxes.

SecretFly wrote:

beshocked wrote:secretfly Ireland have 100% representation in the HC for 2013/14 no matter how you'd like to twist it to suit you. As I said before the solution I suggested means Connacht would not have to hang onto coat tails to qualify.

Quick question: Do you think it's better if Connacht qualify for the HC by hanging onto coat tails or by their own team efforts? Personally I prefer the latter.



I would say 50% higher attendances is a pretty significant amount actually.

Rugby became professional in 1995. It is still a growing sport.

Pro12 is growing too but it is still significantly lower than both the AP and Top 14 in terms of attendances.

Secretfly funnily enough it's you who are in your Pro12 bubble refusing to discuss the possibility of a compromise.

I get the impression you think the Pro12 is the greatest league in the world. Sorry to burst that bubble it isn't.

If all the delegates from the Pro12 are like you there will be no compromise.

Now there's a 'stung' few paragraphs! Wasn't expecting that tone - did I hit a nerve or two, beshocked?

Compromise remains what it is - two sides giving way to come to a conclusion. You change the definition to suit your clothes all you like, that's what it means. The status quo is what's happening now. The sacrificial changes are being asked of one League and four unions that consist of something called Pro12. That's not compromise. And modification of demands is not compromise. Compromise is compromise.

Ireland's '100% representation' is the extra side they drag into the competition by virtue of how they perform IN the competition rather than always talking about the competition like others seem to do. You don't like that as a standard to live by, then tough - it's called competition on the field - where real rugby exists. The rules weren't created to help Connacht out (a side you seem to be positively obsessed with.) France will have the extra side perk next year.

You'd want Ireland to have only one side in HC because three of them is 75% and four of them is 100%? Ireland one side, England six sides. France six sides. Do you have any clue how to judge fairness in a competition?

The English and French (who can never have 100% involvement) still always have more chances of winning the HC than Irish sides in real and practical terms on the field, where real rugby exists.

You weave your percentage magic around that one too as much as you like but the facts won't change. The HC is top loaded with English and French sides (not there on merit) but there because someone thought up the number six. And lucky number six wasn't always the lucky number. It's grown over the timeframe of the HC, as Ireland's tally remained the same. And yet, poor English and French rugby is again the hard done ones? Read your history of the HC, beshocked, and then tell me about all the wrong that's being done to the poor oppressed and abused English and French.

As for Pro12 being the greatest league in the world????? Nope, that's an old cry from a League next door to us that used to holler it out all the time when the HC was working out to their advantage; and when they sniggered and giggled at the little "Celtic" idiots trying to pretend they were playing man's rugby. There's no sniggering and giggling now. Tn game just got ultra serious; as the 'compromise' negotiations continue to affirm, and the attempts are made to put the 'Celts' back in their upstart boxes.

And there Gentlemen in a nutshell lies the nub of this argument as opposed to any debate.

Entrenched, opinionated slanging a la politicians who know in their hearts that they've got to give a little if the want to make an headway.

greytiger wrote:

Entrenched, opinionated slanging a la politicians who know in their hearts that they've got to give a little if the want to make an headway.

I'm glad you at least understand the concept, grey. I don't think beshocked does, though. "Giving a little" in no way means "Ok, we're going to ask for less than we asked for the first time, but we're still giving nothing ourselves, mind".

Actual the status quo is a competition that ends next season with nothing to follow. So basically everyone is negotiating for their involvement (at all).

HammerofThunor wrote:Actual the status quo is a competition that ends next season with nothing to follow. So basically everyone is negotiating for their involvement (at all).

That's the sentiment I was referring to a few posts back.

Hopefully (for me) there will be a whole new competition with 24 teams, a sensible rankings structure, no free entries, h/a quarters/semis and an open access to all European teams via a third tier comp.
Some hope!

Can't see it being 24 teams & h/a quarters/semis would add 2 more games in an already over crowded season

It basically comes down to the organisation of the tournament.

Group A (English/French clubs)want the tournament organised on a league basis.
Group B (Pro 12) want the tournament organised on a country basis.


The original HEC was set up to provide a meaningful cross border competition to help the national sides. It was orgainsed by the unions and each union dealt with their own affairs. It has been a successful model so far and the tournament has gone from strength to strength. Setting up a so called new tournament at this point is just a smokescreen designed to hide the obvious power grab.


It looks like the Pro 12 teams are becoming a victim of their own success now. Remember the French used to send out B teams to play in the HEC. Now its a big deal in France. The Pro 12 teams have taken the tournament very seriously all the time but then are accused of targeting games!!!


The intensity of the pro 12 is also underestimiated. We always hear about the likes of Edinburgh who went on an amazing HEC run last season but finished near the bottom of the league. We never hear about teams who do poorly in the HEC but have a good season in the Pro 12. Edinburgh finished near the bottom again this season despite being out of the HEC early.


One big handicap for the pro 12 sides is coming into the HEC cold at the start of the season . The international players returning are basically in pre season in many cases. The French and English sides by that time have been playing more matches with strong sides.


The Celtic league started, orgainsed by the 3 Celtic unions. It wasn't like any ordinary league. Qualification is based on each individual country's own criteria.


It would be great for the league to have qualification based on league position but its not an regular league. It loses so many players to international rugby that a team with more internationals can be at a disadvantage! So league position isn't a 100% accurate reflection of fairness. The playoffs make most sense for the Pro 12 league than super rugby, top 14 or EPL.

Pro,so just like the other leagues then

broadlandboy wrote:Can't see it being 24 teams & h/a quarters/semis would add 2 more games in an already over crowded season

If the pools were 8x3 teams, then that's four pool games per team as opposed to the current six.
That leaves room for one extra game to accommodate home/away qtr/semis.

Plus no lucky losers.

Job done.