Lions v Barbarians (Official Match Thread)

[mrzimmerman]

First topic message reminder :

The team has been named. What do you think? Predictions for the match?

British & Irish Lions:
S Hogg (Scotland); A Cuthbert (Wales), J Davies (Wales), J Roberts (Wales), S Maitland (Scotland); O Farrell (England), M Phillips (Wales); M Vunipola (England), R Hibbard (Wales), A Jones (Wales), R Gray (Scotland), P O’Connell (Ireland, capt), D Lydiate (Wales), J Tipuric (Wales), T Faletau (Wales).

Replacements: T Youngs (England), C Healy (Ireland), M Stevens (England), A W Jones (Wales), J Heaslip (Ireland), C Murray (Ireland), J Sexton (Ireland), G North (Wales).


Barbarians:
15 Jared Payne, 14 Joe Rokocoko, 13 Elliot Daly, 12 Casey Laulala, 11 Taku Ngwenya, 10 Nick Evans, 9 Dimitri Yachvili, 8 Sergio Parisse,
7 Sam Jones, 6 Samu Manoa, 5 Dean Mumm, 4 Marco Wentzel, 3 Martin Castrogiovanni, 2 Schalk Brits, 1 Paul James.

Replacements: 16 Leonardo Ghiraldini, 17 Duncan Jones, 18 Jim Hamilton, 19 Imanol Harinordoquy, 20 Andrea Lo Cicero, 21 Kahn Fotuali'i, 22 James Hook, 23 Mike Tindall.

[Hood83]

What did Phillips say in his interview? Just the gist please....

Other players played far better than me. My skills were poor.

POC's a legend etc.

Bluesmans previous post pretty much said it. Top interview.

[Hood83]

A mixed performance but got the result so can't complain too much. Looking at the forwards.

I thought Mako started off a bit nervously but grew into the game and really offered himself to carry which was great to see.

Hibbard seemed to struggle at the line-out (who wouldn't with the ball that wet though) and I'd like to see him look to carry round the fringes more but showed a good work rate throughout.

It's quite hard to tell these days whether a player is getting the upperhand at scrum time or the ref has just decided he is but either way Adam Jones won us plenty of penalties and offered a platform to build from. Exactly what you want from Bomb but he was fairly anonymous in the loose I felt.

POC, Gray and AWJ I thought played very well offering a big work rate and physicality. Great to see that from the second rows!

Lydiate, whilst I'm a big fan of his, was a bit anonymous IMO. It wasn't a game for him really as the Barbarians lack of ball meant there was little chance for him to impose himself defensively. He seemed to deal with conditions well which at least shows he should be fully fit.

Tipuric really grew into the game and was excellent in the tight I thought, but I would love to see him getting the ball in the outside channels a bit more to show his pace.

Faletau started nervously I felt but like Mako grew into the game and really showed his strength and physicality.

Would agree that the second rows looked excellent and the pick of the Lions. Healy looked good when he came on but Mako also had some good moments. I think Healy is a little ahead of Mako who's still raw. We really should be able to have a helluva bench.

[RDW]

The 3 2nd rows today set the bar very high and would be happy with them for the tests.

Great to see Roberts back on form.

60 point win, no obvious injuries - happy days!

[maestegmafia]

Great to see Richie Gray seems to have shaken his injury.

[LeinsterFan4life]

Jones was getting lucky a lot in the scrum. Cole for me should start.

[thebluesmancometh]

Jones was getting lucky a lot in the scrum. Cole for me should start.

Jones was very lucky, but he and Hibbard didn't look comfortable in any department from the off, and James is probably the best scrummaging LH in the NH if not the world (trumping Sheri's size with a brain)

I don't think Aus have a LH who could match James scrummaging ability so I wouldn't rate Jones on this just yet.

[maestegmafia]

Jones was getting lucky a lot in the scrum. Cole for me should start.

Lets see how Cole goes, I thought Adam played well, good in the loose too. Lots of nice passes to keep play moving and a lot of intelligence at the breakdown.

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

I thought Jones was really impressive around the pitch, he got to so many rucks for a guy his size in that heat. Comfortably the best front row for me.

[Taffineastbourne]

A pleasing runout on the whole.Our lack of talent at 10 was highlighted.Lord help us if Sexton goes lame!
We look fine up front though I still don't get Stevens.
Lack of any blistering pace in the backs is a slight concern for the tour ahead.
A solid start from what appears to be a coherent bunch of players.

[BigTrevsbigmac]

Perfect run out for the Lions. Good training conditions & more importantly no injuries.
I know you can only play the team in front of you but like the England game last week the BaaBaas lacked real steal & their defence was like an open door at times because players weren't working hard enough to cover each other.

For that reason I think it would be wrong to conclude much from this game other than the Lions kept their structure throughout the game.

It did have the general feel of a pre season friendly though & I'm looking forward to the intensity building up as the tour progresses.

[Feckless Rogue]

I thought the centres were good, which is nice since it was considered to be a weak area. O'Driscoll should be worried for his place now and straining at the leash to show he's still got it.

[thebluesmancometh]

I thought the centres were good, which is nice since it was considered to be a weak area. O'Driscoll should be worried for his place now and straining at the leash to show he's still got it.

He won't be the only one, Evans, Warbs, 1/2p, Cole and Jenkins will all be busting to prove a point after that!!!

[king_carlos]

I thought the centres were good, which is nice since it was considered to be a weak area. O'Driscoll should be worried for his place now and straining at the leash to show he's still got it.

A few players will certainly feel they have a point to prove on Wednesday that's for sure!

1.Healy 2.Best 3.Cole 4.Wyn Jones 5.Parling/Evans 6.Croft 7.Warburton 8.Heaslip
9.Youngs 10.Sexton 11.North 12.Tuilagi 13.O'Driscoll 14.Bowe 15.Halfpenny/Kearney

It's going to be interesting to see whether guys like Alun Wyn and Sexton are given a start or saved for the weekend after. If Warburton misses out again due to injury he could suddenly find himself struggling for a place as well if O'Brien puts in a big performance following Tipuric's efforts today. The second row competition will likely be ferocious as well given how high POC and Gray set the bar today. Even against a poor opposition I felt they shone and were the biggest plus from the match for the Lions.

[Rory_Gallagher]

I really dislike the idea of Tuilagi at 12. I think if he was to move from 13 it would be out to the wing, not further inside.

[flyhalffactory]

Taking the occasion, weather conditions and opponents it was always going to be a "lose lose" situation for the starting line up and bench. With that in mind I think the players and management rose to the challenge and some seriously good performances on the pitch and off.

Hogg defence and positional awareness was right on the button, and but for the slippery conditions could have scored a brace before half time. Cuthbert once more reminded us that there are four wingers to be considered with a fine brace of tries. The midfield combo were the highlight of the match and Jon Davies in my mind has further cemented his place with a fine distributive game mixed with the usual lethal direct play and pace. Maitland was ok but could have done more IMHO. Phillips performance was as honest as his interview, distribution could have been better but this was more than made up by the stand out attacking performance.

Forwards were a mixture.............. Adam Jones and Hibbard had a poor game at the scrum and set piece, Hibbard in particular was very laboured. Gray was immense and surprised me with his fitness and sharpness, and POC well just bloody awesome as his partner and captain. Tale of two halves for Tips and Toby, I thought both were poor in the first 30 mins, and then got better, Tips when the play broke up and the Baa Baas tired came into his own, my concern is against the fitter Australians will he be effective. Lydiate was quiet generally but stayed fit throughout the match and therefore got stronger as the game went on...... Gatland praised him but for me the jury is still out.
7/10

What pleased me was that the bench manned up and rose to the challenge. AWJ and Connor were very good, but disappointed with Sextons performance in general though.
8/10

Coaching-wise I think that the right tactics was employed and in the main the right players for the match was selected.
8/10

Post match, Phillips, POC and Mr G's performance in front of the mike were excellent. Humility amongst the humidity
10/10.

Overall
A competent performance from the whole Lions set-up.
9/10

Footnote
Hogg is a good kicker (he was very accurate for Glasgow in the last 3-4 games) and could be an option, but if Sexton continues having a poor kicking game then both Kearney and Hogg performances might be academic as 1/2p will come in as the dead-ball kicker.

Listen to the Lions ROOOOARRRR.

[thebluesmancometh]

I really dislike the idea of Tuilagi at 12. I think if he was to move from 13 it would be out to the wing, not further inside.

Whys that? Of what ROberts did well today what exactly could Tuilagi theoretically not do?

He worries defences, supports on the outside shoulder, run hard and straight, carries tighter and can play simple inside and outside pops, all of Tuilagi strengths are Roberts strengths also. Similar to North slotting into the 12 shirt today

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

Yeah if I was Sexton I'd want some good kicking returns in the next game, I am not worried but there are going to be those are, I consider such fears a bit silly but yeah, whatever.

I am kinda worried that Philips is not the kind of 9 the Lions need to beat the Wallabies, he may be the best (debatable) but his style may make things easier on the Wallabies defensive front

[Pot Hale]

“A good win for the Lions; a very good day for Wales.”

S. Barnes.

[thebluesmancometh]

Yeah if I was Sexton I'd want some good kicking returns in the next game, I am not worried but there are going to be those are, I consider such fears a bit silly but yeah, whatever.

I am kinda worried that Philips is not the kind of 9 the Lions need to beat the Wallabies, he may be the best (debatable) but his style may make things easier on the Wallabies defensive front

So poor passing stats are ok to worry about but kicking at goal 1/4 is silly?

[Knowsit17]

I really dislike the idea of Tuilagi at 12. I think if he was to move from 13 it would be out to the wing, not further inside.

Whys that? Of what ROberts did well today what exactly could Tuilagi theoretically not do?

He worries defences, supports on the outside shoulder, run hard and straight, carries tighter and can play simple inside and outside pops, all of Tuilagi strengths are Roberts strengths also. Similar to North slotting into the 12 shirt today

Pass.

Now I know Roberts is hardly renowned for his passing either but he did link up very effectively with Davies today. Tuilagi refusal to let up once he's received possession was highlighted towards the end of the 6N.

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

Yeah if I was Sexton I'd want some good kicking returns in the next game, I am not worried but there are going to be those are, I consider such fears a bit silly but yeah, whatever.

I am kinda worried that Philips is not the kind of 9 the Lions need to beat the Wallabies, he may be the best (debatable) but his style may make things easier on the Wallabies defensive front

So poor passing stats are ok to worry about but kicking at goal 1/4 is silly?

Come on mate that is not what I am saying.

Sexton had an off day but we have all seen proof countless times that he is a top quality goal kicker, watching Leinster and Ireland this is obvious.

I think Philips had a great game and his passing was good in terms of accuracy (so stats are rendered meaningless here) but slow. I just don't think tactically Philips or Murray are the right option against the Wallabies.

[thebluesmancometh]

I really dislike the idea of Tuilagi at 12. I think if he was to move from 13 it would be out to the wing, not further inside.

Whys that? Of what ROberts did well today what exactly could Tuilagi theoretically not do?

He worries defences, supports on the outside shoulder, run hard and straight, carries tighter and can play simple inside and outside pops, all of Tuilagi strengths are Roberts strengths also. Similar to North slotting into the 12 shirt today

Pass.

Now I know Roberts is hardly renowned for his passing either but he did link up very effectively with Davies today. Tuilagi refusal to let up once he's received possession was highlighted towards the end of the 6N.

But that was at 13 and with weaker wing options around him, also generally the English midfield (Tuilagi) tends to get some pity with the likes of Faz and Barrittt inside him, Faz and Roberts isn't much better but Davies received a decent amount of ball.

I'm not advocating Tuilagi for 12, but I don't think he'd be too bad, North did come in at 12 and didn't make a pass, thats how Gats likes his 12's.

[Rory_Gallagher]

I really dislike the idea of Tuilagi at 12. I think if he was to move from 13 it would be out to the wing, not further inside.

Whys that? Of what ROberts did well today what exactly could Tuilagi theoretically not do?

He worries defences, supports on the outside shoulder, run hard and straight, carries tighter and can play simple inside and outside pops, all of Tuilagi strengths are Roberts strengths also. Similar to North slotting into the 12 shirt today

If all you are looking for is direct running, then fair enough, I guess he could do the same job. If you want to see the outside backs involved, some variation to the attack, and Tuilagi to play the game he is best suited to, then he should not play 12. He is extremely quick and powerful and if you give him a hint of space he will exploit it. He can burst through the smallest of gaps due to his power. I think he is better suited to that role than a straight run into contact (though he can do this also). I also believe he gets more opportunities to do this from 13. With better outside backs (which England did not have in the 6 nations) I think he could have a huge impact, as both a decoy runner and support player.

I prefer a bit of creativity in the 9/10/12 channel, which was hugely lacking today. Roberts did well today at 12, but against better defences he may struggle to have the same impact. Add in the performances of Phillips and Farrell and any decent team with an organised defence will find them easy to contain. It is hard to read much from that game in terms of our attacking play. There were some promising signs though.

[Rory_Gallagher]

“A good win for the Lions; a very good day for Wales.”

S. Barnes.

Yeah, Barnes is a bit of an idiot to be honest.

[thebluesmancometh]

Yeah if I was Sexton I'd want some good kicking returns in the next game, I am not worried but there are going to be those are, I consider such fears a bit silly but yeah, whatever.

I am kinda worried that Philips is not the kind of 9 the Lions need to beat the Wallabies, he may be the best (debatable) but his style may make things easier on the Wallabies defensive front

So poor passing stats are ok to worry about but kicking at goal 1/4 is silly?

Come on mate that is not what I am saying.

Sexton had an off day but we have all seen proof countless times that he is a top quality goal kicker, watching Leinster and Ireland this is obvious.

I think Philips had a great game and his passing was good in terms of accuracy (so stats are rendered meaningless here) but slow. I just don't think tactically Philips or Murray are the right option against the Wallabies.

I agree in part, but you have to remember the style of passing the whole lions team adopted, they all perceveared with the league style floater, and conditions were difficult. Phillips passing was off, as was Faz, but in their defence they made more passes today than either team put together, and thus the %'s were always going to be them looking poorer.

Notice how Barbs changed their distribution, Kahn didn't make many passes off the deck, and he crabbed more to get closer to runners!

Also Sexton got very close to Murray when they came on, and Murray barely hit Sexton, he used forwards in the 10's harbour to keep it safe.

I'm not saying Phillips should start, or that he's the best option, but he is certainly the most experienced, is a big game player and has lions pedigree, I just think criticism of his and Faz distribution today is unfair!

[thebluesmancometh]

I really dislike the idea of Tuilagi at 12. I think if he was to move from 13 it would be out to the wing, not further inside.

Whys that? Of what ROberts did well today what exactly could Tuilagi theoretically not do?

He worries defences, supports on the outside shoulder, run hard and straight, carries tighter and can play simple inside and outside pops, all of Tuilagi strengths are Roberts strengths also. Similar to North slotting into the 12 shirt today

If all you are looking for is direct running, then fair enough, I guess he could do the same job. If you want to see the outside backs involved, some variation to the attack, and Tuilagi to play the game he is best suited to, then he should not play 12. He is extremely quick and powerful and if you give him a hint of space he will exploit it. He can burst through the smallest of gaps due to his power. I think he is better suited to that role than a straight run into contact (though he can do this also). I also believe he gets more opportunities to do this from 13. With better outside backs (which England did not have in the 6 nations) I think he could have a huge impact, as both a decoy runner and support player.

I prefer a bit of creativity in the 9/10/12 channel, which was hugely lacking today. Roberts did well today at 12, but against better defences he may struggle to have the same impact. Add in the performances of Phillips and Farrell and any decent team with an organised defence will find them easy to contain. It is hard to read much from that game in terms of our attacking play. There were some promising signs though.

I get what your saying, but Phillips and Faz (certainly not the test halfback pairing) distribution won't be as bad as that, and although he had a good impact today he always has a positive impact.

To suggest straight line runninng is the only attribute is silly, once or twice early on yes, he highlights his ability to front up and get over the gameline, but if you watch the many subtleties in his game you'd be very impressed. We all know you need to earn the right to go wide, however Roberts gives an option of not needing to, when he runs his dummy the 10/12 is automatically glued to the sport by default, there is then a knock on effect as the 13 doesn't want to drift too wide, and the 15 has to come into the line, why do you think Cuthberts scores most of his tries from 40 yards out or so?

I'm not saying Tuilagi has the ability to do similar, but he offers many similar threats to Roberts!

[Rory_Gallagher]

I do not think Tuilagi has the awareness required to play at 12 against any decent opposition though. I'm sure he could do a job, but he is the type of player I would MUCH rather have released out wide than having to crash it up in the tight exchanges. He is another attacking threat from the outside in my opinion, potentially one of the most dangerous runners around.

I think Roberts is better used in the tight exchanges whereas Tuilagi is better utilised further out. That is my opinion on it really.

[RDW]

So who else will play 12 on Wednesday if not tuilagi? Roberts can't play every game...

[Biltong]

Both the Barbarian games have been pretty disappointing, why have matches like this when all it really is is a practice run, or was the idea to just build confidence for the English and Lions?

[Cyril]

Both the Barbarian games have been pretty disappointing, why have matches like this when all it really is is a practice run, or was the idea to just build confidence for the English and Lions?

Possibly. The Barbarians really aren't a match for top sides any more. While it may have raised confidence today I think it may be false confidence. A lot of the Barbarians didn't seem that committed. Parisse was pretty awful for example.

It could (and possibly should) have been even more of a hiding today.

[Rory_Gallagher]

So who else will play 12 on Wednesday if not tuilagi? Roberts can't play every game...

O'Driscoll or Davies. Both better suited to 12 than Tuilagi.

O'Driscoll and D'Arcy used to switch it up in the centres often back in the day. O'Driscoll might even wear the 13 shirt for the Lions but play predominantly as a 12. Again, something he has done even in recent years for Ireland.

I don't think the centres selected are particularly balanced though.

[thebluesmancometh]

So who else will play 12 on Wednesday if not tuilagi? Roberts can't play every game...

O'Driscoll or Davies. Both better suited to 12 than Tuilagi.

O'Driscoll and D'Arcy used to switch it up in the centres often back in the day. O'Driscoll might even wear the 13 shirt for the Lions but play predominantly as a 12. Again, something he has done even in recent years for Ireland.

I don't think the centres selected are particularly balanced though.

Although I agree with your earlier post RE Tuilagi being more threatening out wide, I have to disagree with this.

The day of the 10 style player at 12 have gone, with no line threat defences just drift past, and to stick them you have to lose a strike running player that could be used out wide, BOD for example would offer little if no linethreat at 12. His distribution can be recouped by another phase and Hogg or 1/2p being brought in as first.

If Cooper plays 10 he'll be ok in the defencive line with BOD at 12, whereas if Roberts is at 12 they'll hide him out wide, with just his name on the team sheet Roberts has proved usefull.

I do agree with the mix though, if centre don't swap these days they are really limiting their options and asking little questions about the defence.

[ChequeredJersey]

Well played the Lions, I must confess as well as doing what we all knew he does well anyway Mike Phillips actually impressed me with his pass today and Roberts looked completely different to what I have seen both fro Club and Country so far this season. Tipuric was class and may yet push Warburton to 6 (so many hard choices in the backrow). Hogg showed good intent but seemed particularly error-prone on a day with an admittedly slippery ball, Maitland looked class and could be a bolter for the tests yet. Cuthbert took his tries well but was at fault for the Baabaas try I think and I'd rather have Maitland on that performance. North made an impact, and JD2 showed some great predation as well as some lovely touches and I think could easily play 12 this tour. Farrell did not have a great game at all, though why his own Clubmate attacked him I have no idea. Faletau I didn't notice much, nor Lydiate to be honest but that's not that surprising with the Lions doing far more attacking than defending. Gray looked impressive as did POC and AWJ, and the scrum was well on top. Like Vunipola's touch in the loose and the subs all did OK.

The Baabaas were better this week to but the Lions had too much power. Nice to see the Baabaas score, and Daly looked good again. Brits is an idiot. The other matches will all be much harder than this though so it is very hard to make any conclusions based on that battle

[ChequeredJersey]

Oh, and Sexton's kicking is irrelevant as Halfpenny will be starting

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

Yeah if I was Sexton I'd want some good kicking returns in the next game, I am not worried but there are going to be those are, I consider such fears a bit silly but yeah, whatever.

I am kinda worried that Philips is not the kind of 9 the Lions need to beat the Wallabies, he may be the best (debatable) but his style may make things easier on the Wallabies defensive front

So poor passing stats are ok to worry about but kicking at goal 1/4 is silly?

Come on mate that is not what I am saying.

Sexton had an off day but we have all seen proof countless times that he is a top quality goal kicker, watching Leinster and Ireland this is obvious.

I think Philips had a great game and his passing was good in terms of accuracy (so stats are rendered meaningless here) but slow. I just don't think tactically Philips or Murray are the right option against the Wallabies.

I agree in part, but you have to remember the style of passing the whole lions team adopted, they all perceveared with the league style floater, and conditions were difficult. Phillips passing was off, as was Faz, but in their defence they made more passes today than either team put together, and thus the %'s were always going to be them looking poorer.

Notice how Barbs changed their distribution, Kahn didn't make many passes off the deck, and he crabbed more to get closer to runners!

Also Sexton got very close to Murray when they came on, and Murray barely hit Sexton, he used forwards in the 10's harbour to keep it safe.

I'm not saying Phillips should start, or that he's the best option, but he is certainly the most experienced, is a big game player and has lions pedigree, I just think criticism of his and Faz distribution today is unfair!

I am not being that critical of Philips' passing, I think he will be grand in that regard when the ball isn't so greasy I am more worried that his style of play (confrontational, snipping, slower service to 10) is not the right option to go for against Australia.

Farrell's passing was atrocious, yes bad conditions but his passing was really very bad add in getting charged down twice/three times and I think it is fair to say he had a poor enough game

[ChequeredJersey]

Lions vs Reds will give us an idea of if Phillips can outplay Genia. I agree with pete that he's not ideal for that match-up personally but hopefully we will get a practice at it in Queensland

[thebluesmancometh]

But in the gameplan Gats will deploy, the attack is slow and structured, and looking to drag the back rows into a battle and onto the floor, then runners in the centre to stick the inside backs and make gaps out wide.

Who is better to employ Gatlands slow, structured tactics, than the guy who has done it for the last 4 years and very succesfully.

Youngs is a supreme 9, but our only other non Phillips type option, would you want him in slow structured play, bossing the forwards, and having to protect the ball and make tackles constantly? Can Youngs box as long as Phillips, and will Youngs fix flankers in the tight as well as Phillips.

All the key attributes needed for Gatlands gameplan Phillips has, infact I'd go as far to say that Murray was brought in as insurance for Phillips, and if he is injured Youngs still won't start a test despite being the better 9 over Murray!

[Rory_Gallagher]

There are many other ways to break the line than sheer strength though. What are your opinions on Fofana, one of the best 12s around at the minute? Quick feet and guile are just as effective for breaking the gain line than sheer brute force. It depends on what your team is looking for at 12.

However, awareness and distribution is vital for the position.

[ChequeredJersey]

If Gatland's gameplan doesn't work against the Wallabies in T1, do you think he will stick or twist with his tactics, out of interest? He strikes me as very stubborn, for good or bad, but I don't want to make that assumption

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

But in the gameplan Gats will deploy, the attack is slow and structured, and looking to drag the back rows into a battle and onto the floor, then runners in the centre to stick the inside backs and make gaps out wide.

Who is better to employ Gatlands slow, structured tactics, than the guy who has done it for the last 4 years and very succesfully.

Youngs is a supreme 9, but our only other non Phillips type option, would you want him in slow structured play, bossing the forwards, and having to protect the ball and make tackles constantly? Can Youngs box as long as Phillips, and will Youngs fix flankers in the tight as well as Phillips.

All the key attributes needed for Gatlands gameplan Phillips has, infact I'd go as far to say that Murray was brought in as insurance for Phillips, and if he is injured Youngs still won't start a test despite being the better 9 over Murray!

I don't think the Aussies will look to put many in the rucks unless it is between the touch line and 15metre channels.
I think if we go at the Aussies with the Welsh blueprint we will lose. We need to be able to mix it up because brute force is not the way to beat these lads, I think adding in some other ingredients to the Welsh plan would see us winning well ie: Sexton at 10, a further lineout option in the backrow, more ball carrying options in the front 5 and a playmaker in the centres/15

[flyhalffactory]

So who else will play 12 on Wednesday if not tuilagi? Roberts can't play every game...

Every player will have a game so for the next game it wouldn't surprise me to see

12 BOD
13 Tualagi

But I think you will see that luuuurve partnership starting of

12 Roberts
13 BOD

I firmly believe that the test 12/13 should be

12 Davies
13 BOD

But I would actually love to for Mr G to be ballsy and far sighted by selecting (for at least one game)

12 Davies
13 Tualagi

Now that's power, guile and pace written all over it.

Looks like it could be that North has the potential to be used as Wing/Inside Centre in Mr Gatlands eyes

[Pot Hale]

How many kicks did Sexton take and how many were successful?

Some posters have said 1 out of 4 - I thought he was successful with at least two kicks from out on the wing? Can't remember if it was 4 or 5 kicks in total - 3 conversions were missed altogether.

[thebluesmancometh]

But in the gameplan Gats will deploy, the attack is slow and structured, and looking to drag the back rows into a battle and onto the floor, then runners in the centre to stick the inside backs and make gaps out wide.

Who is better to employ Gatlands slow, structured tactics, than the guy who has done it for the last 4 years and very succesfully.

Youngs is a supreme 9, but our only other non Phillips type option, would you want him in slow structured play, bossing the forwards, and having to protect the ball and make tackles constantly? Can Youngs box as long as Phillips, and will Youngs fix flankers in the tight as well as Phillips.

All the key attributes needed for Gatlands gameplan Phillips has, infact I'd go as far to say that Murray was brought in as insurance for Phillips, and if he is injured Youngs still won't start a test despite being the better 9 over Murray!

I don't think the Aussies will look to put many in the rucks unless it is between the touch line and 15metre channels.
I think if we go at the Aussies with the Welsh blueprint we will lose. We need to be able to mix it up because brute force is not the way to beat these lads, I think adding in some other ingredients to the Welsh plan would see us winning well ie: Sexton at 10, a further lineout option in the backrow, more ball carrying options in the front 5 and a playmaker in the centres/15

See now I don't understand how people see any part of the gameplan as brute force, the gameplan is about breaking the line and scoring tries, brute force is just a tool designed to shift the defence around and create hesitation in order to create space out wide.

Does everyone agree that to go wide you need to tie players in? How exactly do you do that without making contact? And when you do make contact is it better to win that exchange or lose it?

Not every phase is about breaking the line, most phases are about tieing players in and earning the right!!!

Aus will not want to put players in the breakdown, therefore carrying tight, and pick and go won't force them to, Big crash lines that take 2/3 players to stop will force them to, Gatlands gameplan is the best at keeping back rowers trapped in the tight simple, and thats the way to exploit the 10 chanell and wider areas.

I agree about the plan B comment though, if for whatever reason the gameplan isn't working, Gatland tends to think that the fitness and idea of the game plan (which is to exploit teams last 20) will carry them through, and well individual mistakes have cost Wales wins they deserved in the past, it's a risky plan against the best because games are so tight.

[flyhalffactory]

There are many other ways to break the line than sheer strength though. What are your opinions on Fofana, one of the best 12s around at the minute? Quick feet and guile are just as effective for breaking the gain line than sheer brute force. It depends on what your team is looking for at 12.

However, awareness and distribution is vital for the position.

Rory out od interest who would you select at 12 and more importantly who would you select on the inside of him at 10 and outside of him at 13

Fofana is only effective with a sharp 9 as France often often employes a round-house 10 (a bit like Stephen Jones used to be, short pass and rounding the between the 12 and 13. The secret to Fofanas' play is his speed and great balance off both feet...... closest we have got is Jon Davies

[Rory_Gallagher]

The only certainty for me would be Sexton at 10. We have three potential 13s in O'Driscoll, Tuilagi and Davies and I am waiting to see who Gatland is considering as an extra 12 option. I am not a huge fan of the welsh midfield, I believe it is largely lacking in creativity, and they are often exploited against better teams. For me Davies is primarily a 12 anyway, I have always thought that.

I would say O'Driscoll is a much better comparison to the type of player Fofana is than Davies though. He may have lost a lot of outright pace, but off the mark, he still smokes many defenders. He is still extremely quick footed. With more guile than any of our other centre options put together.

So I guess I haven't got an answer to your question.

I will say this; I hope O'Driscoll and Tuilagi play in the centres for the next game. I think that could be very effective. Overall though I reckon that Gatland is going to end up selecting Roberts and Davies in the midfield for the games against Australia.

[flyhalffactory]

The only certainty for me would be Sexton at 10. We have three potential 13s in O'Driscoll, Tuilagi and Davies and I am waiting to see who Gatland is considering as an extra 12 option. I am not a huge fan of the welsh midfield, I believe it is largely lacking in creativity, and they are often exploited against better teams. For me Davies is primarily a 12 anyway, I have always thought that.

I would say O'Driscoll is a much better comparison to the type of player Fofana is than Davies though. He may have lost a lot of outright pace, but off the mark, he still smokes many defenders. He is still extremely quick footed. With more guile than any of our other centre options put together.

So I guess I haven't got an answer to your question.

I will say this; I hope O'Driscoll and Tuilagi play in the centres for the next game. I think that could be very effective. Overall though I reckon that Gatland is going to end up selecting Roberts and Davies in the midfield for the games against Australia.

I change my mind daily (hourly maybe)

I think that Davies has a lot more skill than many give him credit but he is a typical "play to the game plan" player very much like 1/2p, where Drico is a "supreme being" and a "one off" and even now on his day he is top of the tree.

TBH I think Gatland might select his tried and trusted Roberts and BOD, unless one of the others forces his arm.

Looks like we should have a left-right 12:Davies 13:BOD and that will satisfy us both

[123456789]

I think the beauty of that game was that I think the starting team was perfectly capable of beating Australia, then you realise they can add players like Healy, Warburton, Heaslip, O'Brien, Sexton, O'Driscoll, Tuilagi, Halfpenny, North, Kearney and Bowe

[thebluesmancometh]

The only certainty for me would be Sexton at 10. We have three potential 13s in O'Driscoll, Tuilagi and Davies and I am waiting to see who Gatland is considering as an extra 12 option. I am not a huge fan of the welsh midfield, I believe it is largely lacking in creativity, and they are often exploited against better teams. For me Davies is primarily a 12 anyway, I have always thought that.

I would say O'Driscoll is a much better comparison to the type of player Fofana is than Davies though. He may have lost a lot of outright pace, but off the mark, he still smokes many defenders. He is still extremely quick footed. With more guile than any of our other centre options put together.

So I guess I haven't got an answer to your question.

I will say this; I hope O'Driscoll and Tuilagi play in the centres for the next game. I think that could be very effective. Overall though I reckon that Gatland is going to end up selecting Roberts and Davies in the midfield for the games against Australia.

I had to stop reading after this as I couldn't stop laughing

[Rory_Gallagher]

I'm glad I amused you, though I'm not really sure what is so funny. Both fit the bill for the small but strong, quick footed and very skilful kind of centre. In contrast to the more powerful, direct runners that the likes of Wales prefer.

[thebluesmancometh]

I'm glad I amused you, though I'm not really sure what is so funny. Both fit the bill for the small but strong, quick footed and very skilful kind of centre. In contrast to the more powerful, direct runners that the likes of Wales prefer.

Fofana has immense footwork, balance unrivalled by any other world centre, accelerates like a gazelle and is one of the most devestating broken play (or organised play) runner on the planet, and BOD can... play Zebo in behind Cuthbert

BOD although a very good player still relies on his vision, forward thinking and experience to counter his declining physical attributes. Infact I'd go as far to say as BOD is almost the opposite to Fofana in many ways, one distributes to others to break the line, one breaks the line, one is strong in contact, one relies on not getting caught, one preplans everything before he does it, the other does things instinctively on the hop.

Fofana is in his prime, and has physical attribute BOD didn't have in his hayday, I'd say the closest thing we have to Fofana is Hogg, but certainly not BOD!!!

[Sponsored content]