Healy Cited

First topic message reminder :

Slight deja vu I know, but as the other thread is concentrating on the choice of Corbisiero to join as cover, I thought we should have a separate one to discuss the citing.

http://www.lionsrugby.com/news/11983.php#.Ua99_Zx5F9U

For me the Force scrum half was grinding his forearm into Healy's face, who was lying trapped on the ground.

greytiger wrote:Talking of Youtube, there's a suspicion of a nibble
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9tlxkhl6u4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9tlxkhl6u4[/quote[/url]]



Cant watch youtube in work. Can you see Healy biting in that clip?

greytiger wrote:Talking of Youtube, there's a suspicion of a nibble
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9tlxkhl6u4

Hadn't seen the replays of it, but is that conclusive enough to cite him?

bluestonevedder wrote:

greytiger wrote:Talking of Youtube, there's a suspicion of a nibble
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9tlxkhl6u4

Hadn't seen the replays of it, but is that conclusive enough to cite him?

Maybe it's enough to say he has a case to answer, but it doesn't prove anything in and of itself.

Sheehan sticks his hand in Healy's face, looks like he puts his fingers in Healy's mouth, then shoves his forearm into Healy's face.

He points at the inside of his arm to but he shoves the outside of his forearm into the face, so not sure if he changed his mind about where he was "bitten" or...?

Mickado wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:

greytiger wrote:Talking of Youtube, there's a suspicion of a nibble
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9tlxkhl6u4

Hadn't seen the replays of it, but is that conclusive enough to cite him?

Maybe it's enough to say he has a case to answer, but it doesn't prove anything in and of itself.

Sheehan sticks his hand in Healy's face, looks like he puts his fingers in Healy's mouth, then shoves his forearm into Healy's face.

He points at the inside of his arm to but he shoves the outside of his forearm into the face, so not sure if he changed his mind about where he was "bitten" or...?

I noticed that too.

All I'd contest is that there's an infinite amount if evidence compared with Hartley.

And you'd have to work hard to present me (or Portnoy) as a Dylan (Hartley, not Bob) apologist.

greytiger wrote:All I'd contest is that there's an infinite amount if evidence compared with Hartley.

And you'd have to work hard to present me (or Portnoy) as a Dylan (Hartley, not Bob) apologist.

There is also more evidence to prove Healy is innocent in this case than there was in the Hartley case. Depends on your POV.

Ferris was at least able to demonstrate that he had bite marks on his hands.

red_stag wrote:

Mickado wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:

greytiger wrote:Talking of Youtube, there's a suspicion of a nibble
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9tlxkhl6u4

Hadn't seen the replays of it, but is that conclusive enough to cite him?

Maybe it's enough to say he has a case to answer, but it doesn't prove anything in and of itself.

Sheehan sticks his hand in Healy's face, looks like he puts his fingers in Healy's mouth, then shoves his forearm into Healy's face.

He points at the inside of his arm to but he shoves the outside of his forearm into the face, so not sure if he changed his mind about where he was "bitten" or...?

I noticed that too.

Good spot!

bluestonevedder wrote:

red_stag wrote:

Mickado wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:

greytiger wrote:Talking of Youtube, there's a suspicion of a nibble
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9tlxkhl6u4

Hadn't seen the replays of it, but is that conclusive enough to cite him?

Maybe it's enough to say he has a case to answer, but it doesn't prove anything in and of itself.

Sheehan sticks his hand in Healy's face, looks like he puts his fingers in Healy's mouth, then shoves his forearm into Healy's face.

He points at the inside of his arm to but he shoves the outside of his forearm into the face, so not sure if he changed his mind about where he was "bitten" or...?

I noticed that too.

Good spot!

Can he be counter cited for lying to the ref?

Who - Sheehan or Ferris?

I might be talking utter tosh with this thought but wouldn't the best moment to determine whether Healy did or didn't bite him have been during the game, namely straight after the incident? Sheehan could have visually testified to the ref by showing him the bite mark, it will have faded by the time of the hearing...

From the shots I've seen I can't see any conclusive evidence of a bite, let alone any indicator of whether it was deliberate or accidental.

greytiger wrote:All I'd contest is that there's an infinite amount if evidence compared with Hartley.

And you'd have to work hard to present me (or Portnoy) as a Dylan (Hartley, not Bob) apologist.

Didn't Hartley admit to biting Ferris?

I don't think hewill befound guilty, especially as you say he points to the inside of his arm, it could be anything that scratched against the inside of his arm, and assumed he was bitten.

Either way the video shows nothing, unless there are other video footage I can't see him being found guilty.

red_stag wrote:

greytiger wrote:All I'd contest is that there's an infinite amount if evidence compared with Hartley.

And you'd have to work hard to present me (or Portnoy) as a Dylan (Hartley, not Bob) apologist.

Didn't Hartley admit to biting Ferris?

Yes.
But did he retract the fish-hook claim?

That's important too in the context.

Biltong wrote:I don't think hewill befound guilty, especially as you say he points to the inside of his arm, it could be anything that scratched against the inside of his arm, and assumed he was bitten.

Either way the video shows nothing, unless there are other video footage I can't see him being found guilty.

Yeah, it might sound like a small and insignificant point but if you were going to point to your arm immediately following an incident of biting, you wouldn’t just point in the general direction of where it happened, you’d point out to the opposing player (and more importantly the ref) exactly the place you were bitten.

That’s what Ferris did, he showed Owens the bite mark, who said to both captains that he’s seen nothing but that a player clearly has a bite mark and it’s been noted. Sheehan offered no evidence, and if there WAS evidence it’s surely faded now.

greytiger wrote:Who - Sheehan or Ferris?

Given that there were bite marks unless Ferris bit his own hand its safe to assume Hartley did it.

GunsGerms wrote:...There is also more evidence to prove Healy is innocent in this case than there was in the Hartley case....

No one has to prove innocence. The onus is on proving guilt.

True.
Tell Dylan that.

GunsGerms wrote:

greytiger wrote:Who - Sheehan or Ferris?

Given that there were bite marks unless Ferris bit his own hand its safe to assume Hartley did it.

Hartley admitted it, and claimed he believed he was being fishhooked. The committee (while making no determination of any motive as Ferris wasn't on trial) found that Ferris's finger ended up in Hartley's mouth but reduced Hartley's ban because he didn't stretch his neck out to bite. (note, I posted text on the judgement at the time, can't find it now).


If there was a bite in the Healy case - and the video certainly isn't conclusive, though it does show that Sheehan got his finger close enough to be worth a hearing then there might be a similar defense of "accidental bite".


I did see an article somewhere saying that Sheehan formally complained to the citing commissioner 30 minutes post-match. Which suggests he's pretty sure he was bitten. At that point everyone was sure Healy was out of the tour with injury so there'd have been no point in a "weakening the Lions" citing

At the risk of rerunning the same argument again...

There was absolute evidence that Hartley bit Ferris - as in the marks. Thats not in question - what is - is why it happened. Hartley's body and arms were stuck in a ruck at the time and fish hooking is a very possible scenario as to why it happened. I havnt seen the video of the Healy incident but from the sound of the descriptions here it may well be that 'teeth came into contact with skin' but that there were mitigating circumstances, i.e. having a forearm ground into his mouth.

There was a case to be made for, on that occasion, being more lenient on Hartley and its the same case that should be made for Healy should there be evidence that a bite happened.

greytiger wrote:True.
Tell Dylan that.

Dylan admitted the bite and PLEADED GUILTY gt.

So your point is rather unnecessary.

how the hell can you "accidentally" bite someone?

I can understand if some numpty presses his skin onto either the top or bottom set og your gnashers but if you have a bite mark then you have been bitten. Surely a grown man is in control of his own facalties enough to decide not to bite down on someone?

tigertattie wrote:how the hell can you "accidentally" bite someone?

I can understand if some numpty presses his skin onto either the top or bottom set og your gnashers but if you have a bite mark then you have been bitten. Surely a grown man is in control of his own facalties enough to decide not to bite down on someone?

Hypothetical example, an opposition player could stick a hand in your mouth, then one of his team mates upper cut you

Joking aside, people do bite their own tongues occasionally. And I find it hard to believe anyone does that on purpose.

I think it would be only natural in his defence that his Solicitor states that evolution tells us that when a Lion is provoked it is instinct and nature that results in a reflex bite to protect itself.

c'mon Pete! folk do that when they are having convulsions or have been sparkled!

If you are accidentally biting someone then I can only put forward that you are taken to the local vets and put to sleep!

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

greytiger wrote:Who - Sheehan or Ferris?

Given that there were bite marks unless Ferris bit his own hand its safe to assume Hartley did it.

Hartley admitted it, and claimed he believed he was being fishhooked. The committee (while making no determination of any motive as Ferris wasn't on trial) found that Ferris's finger ended up in Hartley's mouth but reduced Hartley's ban because he didn't stretch his neck out to bite. (note, I posted text on the judgement at the time, can't find it now).


If there was a bite in the Healy case - and the video certainly isn't conclusive, though it does show that Sheehan got his finger close enough to be worth a hearing then there might be a similar defense of "accidental bite".


I did see an article somewhere saying that Sheehan formally complained to the citing commissioner 30 minutes post-match. Which suggests he's pretty sure he was bitten. At that point everyone was sure Healy was out of the tour with injury so there'd have been no point in a "weakening the Lions" citing

I heard 20 minutes after the match that news had filtered out that the injury was not a break and just a sprain pending an xray. You make some good points though.

tigertattie wrote:c'mon Pete! folk do that when they are having convulsions or have been sparkled!

If you are accidentally biting someone then I can only put forward that you are taken to the local vets and put to sleep!

I've bitten my tongue walking down the street (ok, I tripped)

I was being a bit facetious admittedly. I did put "accidental" in quotes above for a reason, though I was more angling towards a Hartley-style mitigating circumstances defense.

It's all idle speculation without seeing what's being put in front of the disciplinary committee anyway.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

tigertattie wrote:how the hell can you "accidentally" bite someone?

I can understand if some numpty presses his skin onto either the top or bottom set og your gnashers but if you have a bite mark then you have been bitten. Surely a grown man is in control of his own facalties enough to decide not to bite down on someone?

Hypothetical example, an opposition player could stick a hand in your mouth, then one of his team mates upper cut you

Joking aside, people do bite their own tongues occasionally. And I find it hard to believe anyone does that on purpose.

I bit my finger once when eating chips. I also put a staple through my own thumb on numerous occasions.

GunsGerms wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

greytiger wrote:Who - Sheehan or Ferris?

Given that there were bite marks unless Ferris bit his own hand its safe to assume Hartley did it.

Hartley admitted it, and claimed he believed he was being fishhooked. The committee (while making no determination of any motive as Ferris wasn't on trial) found that Ferris's finger ended up in Hartley's mouth but reduced Hartley's ban because he didn't stretch his neck out to bite. (note, I posted text on the judgement at the time, can't find it now).


If there was a bite in the Healy case - and the video certainly isn't conclusive, though it does show that Sheehan got his finger close enough to be worth a hearing then there might be a similar defense of "accidental bite".


I did see an article somewhere saying that Sheehan formally complained to the citing commissioner 30 minutes post-match. Which suggests he's pretty sure he was bitten. At that point everyone was sure Healy was out of the tour with injury so there'd have been no point in a "weakening the Lions" citing

I heard 20 minutes after the match that news had filtered out that the injury was not a break and just a sprain pending an xray. You make some good points though.

Fair point, I thought that the sprain news was later.

GunsGerms wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

tigertattie wrote:how the hell can you "accidentally" bite someone?

I can understand if some numpty presses his skin onto either the top or bottom set og your gnashers but if you have a bite mark then you have been bitten. Surely a grown man is in control of his own facalties enough to decide not to bite down on someone?

Hypothetical example, an opposition player could stick a hand in your mouth, then one of his team mates upper cut you

Joking aside, people do bite their own tongues occasionally. And I find it hard to believe anyone does that on purpose.

I bit my finger once when eating chips. I also put a staple through my own thumb on numerous occasions.

Ouch!

I slammed my thumb in a car door accidentally once. The A&E nurse had to burn a hole through the nail to release the pressure of blood-build-up after.

Im not sure about this incident but I remember when we played saints in the 1/4s a few years back Hartley was trying to pull Wannenburg out of a maul by his mouth and his forearm was in pedries mouth yanking back. He complained about a bite to Poite who dismissed him. Could this be something similar?

There are some mammals whose jaws snap shut on reflex if you put your finger in it .

Perhaps Hartley is similar.

I know if you put something smelling like biltong my mouth shut automatically

Well let's wait until tomorrow for the citing decision. The board meets at midnight BST doesn't it?

Prima facie on the video (Youtube) evidence, there's not much evidence to support a lengthy ban or even a short one.

But the Hartley parallel is fascinating.
We'll see soon enough.

Standulstermen wrote:Im not sure about this incident but I remember when we played saints in the 1/4s a few years back Hartley was trying to pull Wannenburg out of a maul by his mouth and his forearm was in pedries mouth yanking back. He complained about a bite to Poite who dismissed him. Could this be something similar?

Yes. If it's anything it's probably something like that.

Relax boys, I am on my ipad and missed one.

Biltong wrote:There are some mammals whose jaws snap shut on reflex if you put your finger in it .

Perhaps Hartley is similar.

I know if you put something smelling like biltong my mouth shut automatically

but i wonder why this sarcastic comment was allowed to stay?

Now I get cleaned up for pointing out that some dust was still on the floor in the corner???

This house cleaner is industrious!

No British & Irish Lion could or would ever do such a terrible thing. Instead of dwelling on this absurd claim, let's all be outraged and whine about the time Schalk Burger callously blinded Luke Fitzgerald and then eviscerated the entire Fitzgerald clan.

SecretFly wrote:Now I get cleaned up for pointing out that some dust was still on the floor in the corner???

This house cleaner is industrious!

sorry mate, but you quoted the offensive post, that's why.

Yes, Galted is right.

I think Woodward is going to be mighty miffed if Healy is banned!!! More disrespect to the Lions. This really is getting deplorable...and becoming something of an International incident. A warship might have to be sent to evacuate Lions supporters in advance of another right good bollicking by Lions overlords!

Let he who hath no visible trouser opening cast the first stone (Biltong ch1 v1)

Galted wrote:No British & Irish Lion could or would ever do such a terrible thing. Instead of dwelling on this absurd claim, let's all be outraged and whine about the time Schalk Burger callously blinded Luke Fitzgerald and then eviscerated the entire Fitzgerald clan.

A terrible day. It was recently voted the 2nd most traumatic moment in Irish history, just ahead of the famine, but behind Ireland finishing last in the eurovision this year.

From the video clip of the incident it looks like Brett Sheehan is full of sh1t. If you look at the clip closely Healy also gets his hand in under Sheehan's arm and pushes it away after Sheehan plants it on his face. Why would he push his arm away if he wanted to bite it.

Sheehan also points to the wrong place and when interviewed seemed quite flaky on the matter.

Also what are Sheehan's fingers and fore arm doing on Healy's face anyway?
Really hope this isn't another case of an Aussie trying to make a name for himself taking out a Lion.

Also sheehan points to the underside of his wrist yet it is the top of his forearm near healy's mouth. if he is ramming it in healy's mouth then contact with his teeth is inevitable.

2 thoughts

1. If no conclusive VT Panel will take a view and on the basis his tour is probably done on injury will file it
2. If there is contrary conclusive evidence action shoul dbe taken against Sheehan for a malicious allegation, careers and reps can depend on these findings.

The verdict is not guilty. http://www.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/site/index.html

Good news, now lets hope he gets his ankle sorted.

Insufficient evidence bot not exactly exonerated.

New Zealander Hampton, an independent judicial officer appointed by the Australian Rugby Union, concluded it was possible that during the incident, Sheehan's arm "may have come in contact with Healy's mouth and due to the pressure of the tackle it is likely that unavoidable contact between Healy's mouth and Sheehan's arm occurred".

"There is no conclusive video evidence of the incident and post-match it was not possible to distinguish any discernible bite marks outside of the 'regular' marks usually found following a rugby match," Mr Hampton said in his findings.

"I cannot prove on the balance of probabilities that there was a deliberate bite here and the citing complaint is not upheld."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22784626

Sense prevails.

Healy cleared!

Would hope that this would be the last we hear of the Incident, but fear I would have to stop reading 606 as anytime over the next few years Healy is mentioned some posters will drag this up!

Right, lets move on.

Hope he get's good news from the doctor now. Fingers crossed.