Scotland changes for South Africa

First topic message reminder :

After a lacklustre display when we were outmuscled and outplayed by a tough Samoa team we now prepare to face the boks!
What changes can we make to try to get any kind of credible performance next week?
For me the glaring error in the starting team was the selection of Gilchrist and Kellock. Neither can last 80 minutes so you end up playing with effectively one lock for the end of the match. Remember Gilchrist being smashed around 78 minutes as he drove for the line?
One of the reasons that Kellock, Ryder and Swinson are such an effective trio for the weege is that Ryder and Swinson can both easily last the 80.
I would start Swinson and Kellock and have Ryder on the bench, oh sorry he isnt good enough to get in this tour squad! But it would be nice to have a lock that can actually carry effectively wouldnt it?
I cant face going over all the other parts of the team that didnt work, but im sure you guys will have some thoughts.
Seriously though, we could do with Swinson and his ability to turn over ball in contact as we will need to try and slow down as much of the Boka ball as we can.

Considering there are around 20 Scottish players who are either with the Lions or injured, who could all be classed as there or there abouts in the squad, playing against a 1st choice SA team that really was an incredible effort.

Supraport got it right:

The Springboks were made to sweat far more than expected in the lowveld heat as Scotland gave them the fright of their lives before eventually running out 30-17 winners in Nelspruit on Saturday.

Proud of the effort. Swinson, Strokosch and Scott immense, and strong performances from Lawson, Laidlaw and Seymour as well.

Scott and Dunbar's centre partnership was a big positive today I think, looks far more potent than anything we've had recently. Looks to have solved a big problem for us.
Strokosch had a great game, probably deserves the 6 shirt ahead of Kelly Brown for now. Thought Beattie looked too passive off the back of the scrum, didn't look explosive enough carrying into contact, I'd go with Denton next week.
Also thought that the debutants all played fairly well, Swinson and Richie Gray would be a good second row partnership in the autumn.

Very good effort from the lads today, tired in the last quarter and conceded too many penalties in the second half. Shame we didn't give that performance against Samoa

Enjoyed the game, I felt Scotland were hard done by, the TMO tried his best to get the second try dis-allowed. Hamilton getting a yellow was a joke just handbags but probably cost Scotland the game. There were other decisions that favored SA.

Well done, the defence looked good and Scotland looked far more dangerous than in the past. SA looked ordinary to me and should give teams playing them confidence.

I'm going to catch the game later, how did Siya Kolisi do? He looks like one of the most talented flankers around.

He played well on his debut, Rory

Started a player rating thread

https://www.606v2.com/t45326-scotland-v-south-africa-player-ratings#2128561

Just watching the game now. How was that a penalty try


The fell over themselves there were not scots there

Shocking

Risky - one of my pet hates in rugby.  Whenever a rolling maul collapses refs always give a penalty - sometimes 16 big blokes pushing each other causes a collapse!!!

Very unimpressed with the Boks today.

Firstly: Didn't pitch or bother about doing the basics right. Arrogant.

Secondly: Typical Boks. Think they can run through brick walls. Never attack the space or weak shoulder of the defender. Just run right at them thinking they will go flying.

Thirdly: Forwards didn't protect the halfbacks. Eben, Coetzee (headless chicken), Kruger etc didn't clean out Scots getting in the way and irritating.

Fourthly: Attacked with one off forward runners who always played from a standing start. Never coming from deep, at speed at an angle (as the Bulls are doing so well this season and the Boks did for the first half of the 2nd test in SA against England last year)

Fifthly: No support runners coming off the shoulders of the ball carriers. Not one off load in the tackle. On the rare occasion SA broke the line there was no one to offload to.

I could go on but at the moment I would fear playing the AB's. At times this match SA looked completely clueless and with no game plan. Where is the coaching?

I've been complaining about most of the above issues for years but somehow the Boks keep on getting most of the results so maybe I shouldn't. How we manage to pull of wins in November NH tours with depleted, fatigued and poorly prepared teams playing in conditions not to our liking. Thinking about the last result against Eng and some of the more recent Wales wins for example.

Nice to see that everyone here is still comically one-eyed as ever, keep up the good work guys.

Undeserved. Feel for Scotland, they deserved something form this.

Fantasticbarnsmell - Just as well we have you to rise above it all then, eh? I thought SA were really one dimensional. Scotland were a nuisance at the breakdown but I can't remember seeing a Bok team ruck so poorly.

Thank you for the tu quoque Hood83, much appreciated. 

Here's some thought contrary to the general vibe of this thread:

1) The TMO overstepped his authority, but Poite ignored the advise and so it had no impact on the game.
2) Hamilton went looking for trouble and found it
3) Strokosch in particular, while he was immense and had a fantastic game, he also got away with murder with regards to obstructions and offsides, so keep that in mind when whinging about the referee.

Hood83 - You are actually spot on about the rucking from South Africa though, it was awful. I would imagine it was Louw's absence that contributed to this, but Pierre Spies and Marcel Coetzee did nothing really, Strokosch was far superior.

Smell, I actually agree with you there, particularly re Hamilton's stupidity, but I'm happy that Stroks played to (and just over sometimes) the edge of the laws. But why the w-a-n-k first comment above? Doesn't really help your case

Valiant effort Scotland. You did yourselves proud. 

AsLongAsBut100ofUs - You are right, it was unnecessary

Ignore them all Fantasticbarnsmell, you're the voice of reason.

Smell, Galted may not be doing you any favours! 

From Sport24.co.za:

Nelspruit - South Africa staged a second-half comeback to record a flattering 30-17 win over a feisty Scotland in the four-nation tournament on Saturday and set up a final clash with Samoa.

It was an unconvincing display from the Springboks who were expected to crush an injury-ravaged Scottish side but had to scramble desperately to grind out the victory.

Seems to be a slightly more balanced summary that some of the begrudgers' tosh that has been posted above.

If Louw doesn't play Brussouw must. Alberts and Vermeulan were missed today. Spies is a different type of 8. Unsure who the Boks should use when Vermeulan is not available. I really like the look of Lappies but don't want SA playing another player out of position like Hougaard, Pienaar, F Steyn, Aplon etc. We have not had a seriously good specialist 8 in such a long time.

Spies is great when he doesn't have to do forwards work and the Boks are on the front foot. He should be used as an impact sub. He has had a good season though and I feel a lot of the flak he receives is unfair and biased.

Fantasticbarnsmell - You're right re Strokosch obstructing. Some of his work was legal and highly effective, some, for me, dubious but effective. I used to get would up with Ireland years ago for making a mess of rucks, arms and legs everywhere, protestations that they're rolling away when tangled up with the ball, tacklers tackling than simply carrying on to tackle the next player behind the ball trying to ruck. I thought on occasion Scotland tried similar tactics, but they also used some brilliant counter rucking with great body positions - that did the most damage.

The TMO had little effect on the game, but he tried to, that was the gripe. 

I don't think Coetzee is Bok standard. I've never seen him and thought he looked good enough, but he is young I suppose. SA are a different team with Alberts.

Scotland made a complete nuisance of themselves, and it was great to see.  Far too often Scotland are to passive at the breakdown, it was great seeing Strockosh play on the edge. I understand that he overstepped the mark, and cost us a few points - but I think the rest of his play compensated for that.  I mean, what else were Scotland going to do? A completely decimated team in terms of players not available and playing against a superior Sprinbok side - it's all we could do - compete at the breakdown and get up quickly in defence.  

I thought Laidlaw, who I have been very critical of recently, played fantastically.

Coetzee doesn't cut it for me. The Boks loose forwards had no balance today. I would have thought Meyer would've learnt against Arg last year that it doesn't work without a Louw / Brussouw. SA have managed to play an unbalanced loose trio over the years just because Smith and Burger were exceptional players. These days a Louw etc is required. Vermeulan, Louw and Alberts were starting to look seriously good last year.

Hmm. Seems like a divide on how to call how the game went!

Where us biltong? He is normally fair in summing things up!

I think Scotland fans' positive comments should be taken in the context of the number of players we had missing. In addition to the 4 lions we had another 11 or so players injured and a few more rested. And for a country with only two professional teams that is a lot! Our replacement hooker has never even started a professional match! So we were talking before the game about how this might surpass our record defeat against SA which was something like 68-10. In that content the performance we saw was very pleasing indeed! If our first choice team was playing we would probably have been less happy with a 30-17 defeat.

Biltong will  be mortified by this effort. If Scotland had had a decent attack at key times the score would have mounted up in that first half.

Having just watched the AB vs France and Lions vs Tahs matches immediately prior to this one all 4 teams would have put more on the board with the continuity and opportunity that the Scots availed themselves during the entire first half.

Positionally they were excellent but several times had no idea how to make key breaks when the space and thin defence was on offer. The first carrier would just take it up and tie it up.

All Scotland lacked was some creativity in attack at key moments. Hamiltons offence cost them dearly and the Boks stole the lead and the match immediately afterwards, never giving it up again.

In saying that I still thought the Scots would be at the wrong end of a big score and Meyer and co will be wondering what on earth they have as a side this year.

I will watch this game later but the way the game seemed to go does support the comments above that suggest that if Scotland had a full team out with folks like Grant, Hogg, Maitland, Gray, Rennie and Brown then the Boks would have found themselves with more considerable problems than those which they eventually managed to overcome today.

Certainly, if this was supposed to be a showcase for Bokke pack dominance, then Meyer really needs to take a very close look at why that didn't happen because that should worry him a little. To put it another way, the Boks really had their first picks in almost all positions - Scotland had no specialist openside, first and second choice fly halves out injured, first and second choice looseheads and hooker out of action in addition to those players on Lions duty and still managed to finish within a couple of scores.

This was a match that the boks would never impress. They had everything to lose while Scotland had nothing to lose and the boks would always be up for local criticism unless they put 70 points on them. Hence why they did not respect the Scots enough and get the basics right before going for glory.

Bismark, Alberts, Vermeulan, Louw will make a huge difference.

Kruger is failing to impress even though he is probably one of the locks of the Super15. Peter Steph du Toit would be starting if he wasn't injured especially as Kruger is moving to France.

I did feel Scotland could do what they wanted at the breakdown in the first half and were very street wise in obstructing runners and defenders as well as irritating the half back. The ref and the bok forwards should have taken less of it and I'm pretty sure If the above mentioned forward were available they would've.

Think HM learnt some lessons today (which he should've already in the drawn matches against England and Argentina).

Yes George I'd go as far to say they shouldnt have needed those players they were that composed and more than matched SA. They just annoyed in not doing a lot with some excellent opportunities.The Hamilton yellow ended Scotland right there. From that point a Bok win was inevitable though even then they laboured for it.

If that Bok side met the AB's of last night...? Hate to think...

Quote from Scott Johnson on Hamilton's card: "We weren't playing tiddlywinks. They've just asked me if I'd like to cite anybody - probably the fourth official."

Brilliant.

Scotland should've had a yellow long before Hamilton got his. So why all the whinging? One of the most cynical team performances you'll ever see. My irritation is that none of the young Bok forwards stepped up to sort it out. Coetzee can run around flapping his arms and flying into tackles all he likes but until he can channel that energy in an efficient focused way he will always be a Burger wannabe.

While I think the Boks would have lost if the met the AB's of this morning I don't think it would have been a 30-0. SA would approach the match completely differently and been mentally switched on which they clearly weren't today. They would've played to structure, for territory and their strengths. Probably a close game with a moment of AB magic turning the game.

Not too concerned about matches to come. With the players to come in we will have a seriously strong pack.

MMaxx - I will defer to other's views as I didn't see the match in full tonight but I don't think it's correct to say that Boks were doomed never to impress in this game. It just sounds as though the pack didn't do the simple things well enough because there's one thing I am positive about, even without having seen the game, which is that the 2009 Springboks pack would have thrown that Scotland 8 around like a dog's chew toy. The pack could well have dominated but uncharacteristically weren't coherent enough to do it.

And I can't believe that you won't find an All Blacks pack who don't play that close to the edge of the rules in every single game.

The Scots did get away with quite a lot at the break-down, but fair enough to them. They figured out how far the ref would let them go and played accordingly: The Boks were slow to react, and should have responded by ferocious counter-rucking - but the big boys (Jannie, Beast, Kruger, Spies) went AWOL at ruck time.

I do think the Boks underestimated the Scots and didn't come out firing on all cylinders, and the intensity of the Scottish play meant that the Boks weren't allowed the opportunity to get into gear for much of the match.

I agree. I've said in most my posts that even though the ref did not have a firm hand the blame for me comes down to the forwards for not sorting it out.

Missed a bit of this: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VJ0_L9EjdCk

Only Eben and Strauss at times put in some hard shoulders. I really think the Boks mentally were not psyched up for this match and thought they would walk it.

JDV as captain for me was also a let down for not calming the team or influencing the ref.

Have to say I'm loving that for once we were the team that was flouting with the laws and playing the ref - makes a genuinely nice change!

I forgot that no other team in International rugby does the same thing...

Really Maxx, there was so much missing from the Boks today its hard to decide where to start. I havnt seen a more disjointed Bok effort in years and in that time there have been a few of those.

They completely failed to get gain from the scrums, lineouts and particularly in the breakdown area- the 3 areas crucial to any chance of a Bok win. They hardly ever got go forward ball despite having the usual monsters in the pack to do so. In all 3 areas the AB's excelled last night and add to that had a better kicking game that would have matched many of those in those Bok matches from the 07-09 period.

If Meyer isnt completely perplexed about what to do now then I'd be amazed because if this was anything like the intended gameplan the Boks are again in for a very difficult year.

The Boks are really missing the likes of Bakkies and Burger and Bismarck who could single handedly clear out rucks and drive mauls. The other Bok forwards have become used to those okes doing the grunt work allowing everyone else to stand-off at ruck and maul time.

I was really impressed with Jackson when he was on the field.... Before he's never seemed the type to take it to a team defensively yet he was all action today. I think we lost it when our replacement flyhalf went out injured and laidlaw came in....had that not occurred i think we could have made it across the line.

Finally a match where we showed we had real grit, I've waited a long time for that. Before our wins have come because of the weather etc... Ok it wasn't a win but this is SA, in SA and we took it to them with 10 odd players missing, a recent loss to Samoa and could have won rit up to the 75th min.

When was the last time a Celtic team came to SA and competed with a full strength bok side like that??? Probably ourselves in 2002.

The boys should only see this as positive.

My frustration is that we keep on attacking with one off runners always from a standing start. They will run right at the defenders and never at the space. I'm fine with using the forwards but they have forgotten how to come from deep at an angle. There were no support runners and not one offload in the tackle. They got it right in spurts last year thinking of the first halves against the English in the 2nd test in June, the 1st half against the AB's in NZ and the home match against AUS.

Even though Steyn has played well this season I think HM should've stayed with Lambie. Steyn is going to France and will never take the backline to the next level.

Bok wise, very disappointing... Where was the intensity, the fever... Even Bismarck was quiet when he came on.

Odd to see a team physically get the better of the boks at home. They just seemed uninterested and a little bit of fortune/class got them through.

Guys like Jannie should be dropped. He's so lazy, does nothing good... He act that he's had no competition for years has made him take the jersey for granted,
Meyer - swallow your pride and call up brussow sharp. the rest just don't have that quality.

MMaaxx wrote:My frustration is that we keep on attacking with one off runners always from a standing start. They will run right at the defenders and never at the space. I'm fine with using the forwards but they have forgotten how to come from deep at an angle. There were no support runners and not one offload in the tackle. They got it right in spurts last year thinking of the first halves against the English in the 2nd test in June, the 1st half against the AB's in NZ and the home match against AUS.

Even though Steyn has played well this season I think HM should've stayed with Lambie. Steyn is going to France and will never take the backline to the next level.

That's my frustration too. If only the forwards could combine the battering-ram run, to draw in tacklers, with an offload....

Too much brawn not enough brain