Lions V NSW Waratahs

by hugehandoff Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:35 pm

First topic message reminder :

This is obviously a very important game in the overall context of the tour. Gats should use it primarily as a tough run out for his test team 1 week before the test series begins. But will he still want to give some players a chance to put up their hands? Are there certain positions still up for grabs and if so will he try and use this game as a winner takes all shoot out. It is not ideal to still be asking players to play the Brumbies game and then appear in the 1st test, although not impossible.

For me it should be:

Adam Jones - nailed on
Hibbard - almost nailed on
Grant - experiment
POC - nailed on
AWJ - trial V Parling
Lydiate - needs to prove himself
Faletau - needs to prove himself
Warbs - needs to prove himself
Phillips - nailed on
Sexton - nailed on
North - nailed on
Roberts - nailed on
BOD - nailed on
Maitland - experiment
1/2P - nailed on

Bench:
Cole.....purely for some hard match practice as I see Jones as nailed on
T.Youngs....could challenge for a starting spot if he excels as a replacement - worth a look
Vuni.......originally viewed as an impact sub so interesting to see how he goes compared to the highly rated (by the Scots) Grant who is deserving of a start
Parling.....worth another look to see if he is worth a starting or bench spot
Croft....another who deserves a run out to see if he is worth a bench spot
Heaslip....given an opportunity could take the starters spot
Youngs....assuming he will be the test sub so let him see what impact he can make
Farrell....ditto as for Youngs

Is a 6/2 bench split a bit risky?

Who would you like to see run out on Sat and do you just want the test side to play or do you still see this as a chance to experiment and give players a fair crack?

Update with actual team.
Lions team: Leigh Halfpenny; Sean Maitland, Jonathan Davies, Jamie Roberts, Simon Zebo; Jonathan Sexton, Mike Phillips; Mako Vunipola, Tom Youngs, Adam Jones, Alun Wyn Jones, Paul O'Connell , Tom Croft, Sam Warburton (capt), Jamie Heaslip
Replacements: Richard Hibbard, Alex Corbisiero, Dan Cole, Geoff Parling, Dan Lydiate, Ben Youngs, Owen Farrell, Rob Kearney

by **rodders** Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:57 am

Guns he was a stocky ex RL player, ROG was a skinny 21 year old. It was a total mismatch.

by fa0019 Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:00 pm

Guns you beat me to it... I was just writing the same thing. Balshaw towers over him and how big is he??? 6ft?

by **George Carlin** Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:01 pm

This ll be a work out. Tahs first choice halfbacks are playing so they''ll make the most of their possession and there are some smart, quick ball players in their backline. We should throttle their tight five though.

by fa0019 Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:02 pm

Guns you seen Will Skelton play before??? Big big chap. +130kg and whenever he plays he solidifies the Tah's scrum. only 21 as well and in his first season. Great talent IMO.

by SecretFly Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:04 pm

rodders wrote:ROG didn't fight back because McCrae was twice his size and battered him. I'd be more interested in why none of his teammates came to his rescue...

5 euro on the waratahs to win...I'm not convinced this Lions side is as good as made out.

So that's how Legends were formed in the old days? McCrae is shorter than O'Gara by about five inches and I think lighter too. But yep, he was more of a street fighter.

by fa0019 Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:05 pm

In fairness though... When Freddie Mendez hit Ackford he was about 1ft shorter too... not sure why he hit him, perhaps he read some of his future articles???

by RubyGuby Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:08 pm

Talking about "future articles" - There was a psychic due to perform at the Hall for Cornwall this weekend, however there is a sign up saying it's been cancelled due to unforseen circumstances. Funny old world.

Gat's phoned me earlier and North is unlikely to play in the first Test Crying or Very sad

by **rodders** Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:08 pm

Ah jeebus come on folks, if you were to pick a fight (not to condone that sort of thing) you'd rather do it with ROG than McCrae....

by GunsGerms Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:11 pm

fa0019 wrote:Guns you seen Will Skelton play before??? Big big chap. +130kg and whenever he plays he solidifies the Tah's scrum. only 21 as well and in his first season. Great talent IMO.

No I havent I dont think. Will keep an eye out for him. I am looking forward to watching Foley at 10. Looks a very decent player.

by GunsGerms Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:13 pm

rodders wrote:Ah jeebus come on folks, if you were to pick a fight (not to condone that sort of thing) you'd rather do it with ROG than McCrae....

Thats only because ROG is a bit of a Cat. He is still bigger than McRae.

by fa0019 Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:14 pm

Ben Volavola too... on the bench but great skills.

by ChequeredJersey Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:17 pm

fa0019 wrote:If the Lions lose we're in big trouble... there at are least 10 starters in that side and the Waratahs are missing 16 players to injury and AUS squad.

I think they may just be the best club side we'll face however. I think this side would have beaten the reds last week.

Brumbies will be a fight too, their scrum will be weakened but Toomua is a good 10, Nic White should be in the Wallabies squad, Mogg will play too and Fainga'a, despite being not being their first choice 7 (arguably not 2nd choice when Smith plays 7) is class when I've seen him and I reckon will kick on at the Rebels next year and get capped in a few years

by SecretFly Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:21 pm

RubyGuby wrote:Talking about "future articles" - There was a psychic due to perform at the Hall for Cornwall this weekend, however there is a sign up saying it's been cancelled due to unforseen circumstances. Funny old world.

Gat's phoned me earlier and North is unlikely to play in the first Test

The Psychic phoned me and I'm afraid there's even more bad news about the final Test. Sad

by fa0019 Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:21 pm

In the end, taller or smaller I think it was Emanuel Steward who said.... if you're over 200Ibs.. you can punch.

If you hit someone first, its direct and forceful its going to take most people down. If the person is already down then it would become a free for all.
The only difference is that McRae may have taken a step back if it had been Scott Quinnell up against him rather than O'Gara.

by **rodders** Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:59 pm

At the end of the day the tale of the tape is irrelevent.... McRae was a hardened and experienced pro player and ROG was a lightly built pasty faced wee gobshoite from Cork....and whilst such attributes stood Roy Keane in good stead in the odd confrontation he was the exception rather than the rule.....

by SecretFly Fri Jun 14, 2013 2:54 pm

McRae was a thug and O'Gara isn't? How about that twist to it?

by SecretFly Fri Jun 14, 2013 2:56 pm

I wish 606 had a doodle mechanism. I'd love to doodle some of this stuff that often gets talked about here.

by **rodders** Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:04 pm

Well thats not so much a twist as the central point in the debate...

by wales606 Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:16 pm

So the Lions could be without their first 2 loosehead and winger come the first test :/

Losing North and Bowe is a huge blow, I guess Cuthbert and Maitland start - similar types of players to North and Bowe but without as much experience and talent

Everyone complained about Cuthbert's defence prior to the England game - he proved people wrong

He got shown up against the Reds, but I am sure he will make sure it doesn't happen again.

by fa0019 Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:26 pm

Wales606.... I personally don't have anything against Cuthbert in attack... he's a great finisher. In defence he is a liability though.

England never attacked Cuthbert during that match... probably because your tight five muscled them off the ball for the whole match. Had they done so he may have been exposed like he often does when guys attack down his channel.

However he will be exposed vs chaps like Beale, Folau and O'Connor. They are too good not to take notice. He's already been made to look out of place in the dirt-tracker matches against lesser players.

He's young and his positioning is out of place... was he always a winger??? He's no coward but it just seems like he has only been in the position a few years.

For the lions test side we need someone more well rounded.

by GunsGerms Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:42 pm

Personally I think his defense isnt normally his strong point but he has been below par all round on this tour so far. Just doesnt seem to be hitting the form we all know he is capable of.

by fa0019 Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:45 pm

He's been carrying an injury hasn't he... someone like a torn ACL??? Not an out of tour injury mind.
Guns I agree about his form, he looks a bit bulkier too

by GunsGerms Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:51 pm

fa0019 wrote:He's been carrying an injury hasn't he... someone like a torn ACL??? Not an out of tour injury mind.

Looks that way alright.

by SecretFly Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:49 pm

Bulk is there to be run off I'd guess. Wales became stronger as the 6N went on on the same principle.
Speaking of which, O'Driscoll seems to have gone the opposite way and seems a tad gaunt and sinewy compared to a few weeks ago with Leinster.

He should relax in trying to keep up with the young guys and just do it his usual way. Your team mates are young and you're far away, BOD Wink

by Higher_Ground Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:21 pm

This nonsense about Cuthbert being a liability is really confusing.
He was clearly blocked off the man for the first try against the Reds, and for the second one, he was marking two men, and had to cover the outside man like wingers do. The inside cover didn't get across. Not really his fault. He's lethal, he should start.

by GunsGerms Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:28 pm

Higher_Ground wrote:This nonsense about Cuthbert being a liability is really confusing.
He was clearly blocked off the man for the first try against the Reds, and for the second one, he was marking two men, and had to cover the outside man like wingers do. The inside cover didn't get across. Not really his fault. He's lethal, he should start.

He was blocked but only after a really sluggish attempt to get to the up and under. This is the Lions series he should have been there before the blocker arrived ready to catch the ball and not plodding along in 1st gear.

by Higher_Ground Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:51 pm

If he was sluggish, there wasn't another defender for 40 feet, so it doesn't saying for the rest. I seem to remember him putting in a big tackle on Parisse before bouncing to his feet to support the play, and scoring a great try, so I don't think his effort should be called into question. But I understand that he's not everyone's cup of tea. I would have started him I'm the tests regardless of who else was fit. He scores trys, lots of them, and a damn sight more than he lets in, if he does.

Looking forward to hearing all about how Warburton has a quiet game on Saturday too, trying to do the work of the entire back three whilst Croft and Heaslip stand out on the wings - albeit very effectively.
Gatland hasn't done him any favours.

by glamorganalun Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:41 pm

Higher_Ground wrote:If he was sluggish, there wasn't another defender for 40 feet, so it doesn't saying for the rest. I seem to remember him putting in a big tackle on Parisse before bouncing to his feet to support the play, and scoring a great try, so I don't think his effort should be called into question. But I understand that he's not everyone's cup of tea. I would have started him I'm the tests regardless of who else was fit. He scores trys, lots of them, and a damn sight more than he lets in, if he does.

Looking forward to hearing all about how Warburton has a quiet game on Saturday too, trying to do the work of the entire back three whilst Croft and Heaslip stand out on the wings - albeit very effectively.
Gatland hasn't done him any favours.

Cuthbert was blamed for the first try against Ireland in the 6N, I think not tackling BOD was the problem and Cuthbert was isolated, other than that no other tries were scored on his wing. I agree he can ball watch, but not many run through or around him he is usually beaten by a good pass, who is not.

by doctor_grey Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:49 pm

C'mon. Cutherbert's defense is not that bad. Think. We used to have McRae's punching bag out there.
One more chance. If he screws up we can put him on a prison ship to Botney Bay. Oh wait........

by doctor_grey Sat Jun 15, 2013 7:14 am

So here is the question a few hours before the match: All I read is that NSW will be the most difficult match leading up to the Tests. But, I also read that 16 front line NSW players won't play. So which is it? Difficult or not? I don't think the media knows.

And for me, the Lions looked unready against a bunch of at least half second string Reds. Does make one nervous, no?

by Taylorman Sat Jun 15, 2013 7:33 am

Its not a bad side doc and obviously the Wallaby tahs wont feature:

http://www.planetrugby.com/lions/story/0,25883,3551_8776095,00.html

but Foley and Drew Mitchell at least are there. I've also read the Lions themselves might be holding out for the test spots as well though the run on side does look a shadow test side doesnt it?

I'll go Lions by 9.

by **George Carlin** Sat Jun 15, 2013 7:42 am

It's all relative Doc. I think that with the exception of guys like Croft and Warbs the players have no excuse for not matching the intensity of opposing teams now. They should have a feel for the environment, the pitches, the ball movement and for their colleagues.

How 'difficult' you think today's match is going to be depends on how difficult we all thought it was going to be in the first place. The Tahs first choice team would have something like 13 or 14 full cap internationals who all play together regularly. That's effectively a level just below full test match quality and would have been tough. However, we knew about Deans hothousing his Wallabies in camp for three weeks prior so we also knew the Tahs team would be without 6-8 full cap player, as has turned out to be the case. However, it was not really factored in for Dingo to release 2 players from the Wallaby 7s and 2-3 from the full Wallabies squad for this game. Conversely once again, it wasn't assumed that the Tahs would loose their first choice lock and loosehead to injury, which they also have,

So in summary, it shouldn't be comparable to playing a full test international but it may be tougher than we originally thought it was going to be at the start of the tour.

Unfortunately, the Force and Combined Countries games set a new floor for poor quality of opposition. This should match the quality of the Reds match, perhaps not quite as good given the aggregate strength of the Reds squad over the Tahs.

But we'd really need a very good excuse for not winning this.

by doctor_grey Sat Jun 15, 2013 7:48 am

Taylor,
It does appear to be close to the Test side. And clearly it will be a physical match. Putting thise two blokes in the centres tells exactly the strategy the Lions will play. And Chieka already said that's the plan.

What I find concerning from a Lions point of view is that these seasoned professionals appeared unready for what the Reds threw at them. These guys are selected in part because they are supposed to be able to handle anything, no? That's one thing that makes a great pro. The ideal case is that NSW come out smoking (playing hard that is, not with cigars between their teeth), the Lions soak it up and go right after them. On current form, I think the first half will be sloppy and close. Then a Lions win, and the nine point margin seems about right. Hoping to be wrong.

by doctor_grey Sat Jun 15, 2013 7:55 am

George,
I like you comments about the Force and Combined Countries matches. No way the Lions could do anything but look awkward against those teams. The matches were really extended training session, I suppose.

Back many moons ago I was hoping for a pretty strong Waratahs team to go after the Lions. But that was before Deans was under fire to keep his job and decided to take the Wallabies out of the squad to prepare for the Lions. Could have been fun. Going into the 6 Nations the NH teams usually have one week together before going at it. I suppose it was a bit naive to assume the Wallabies would do the same.

by Taylorman Sat Jun 15, 2013 8:02 am

About right doc...the unknowns are probably frustrating the Lions endlessly. They should wn by more...in fact in relooking at the sides I think the test is close enough for the Lions to be thinking with a bit more focus so I'll go out to 20 now...been impressed with the Lions up front despite the sides theyve played to date.

by doctor_grey Sat Jun 15, 2013 8:13 am

I think the Lions should win by more, too. But for now, I need to see something from the Lions that tells me they are ready for proper Test Rugby. Not sure I have seen that yet.

WE have another big day of Rugby. And the next 4 or so hours i particular should be enjoyable. Only question is: At 3:30am is whether I have a beer at kick off or coffee????

by Taylorman Sat Jun 15, 2013 8:40 am

Little manner of the AB's to get through at the mo as well...Nonu chip for Savea...in maybe?...yep...

by doctor_grey Sat Jun 15, 2013 8:40 am

That was easy for the ABs..........

by doctor_grey Sat Jun 15, 2013 8:41 am

no offside?

by Taylorman Sat Jun 15, 2013 8:43 am

Funny how the best players so far to contribute to the scoring in this series are all the Highlanders backs...Nonu, Ben and Aaron Smith...last in the sxv

by **George Carlin** Sat Jun 15, 2013 8:45 am

Alternate between beer and coffee Doc. Or whatever other chemical assistance got you through your clinical finals.

I think that most people recognise that this is a good Tahs side and Sydney's always more of a cauldron than you might think - the Tahs are certainly the only side I know selling limited edition Lions match shirts on their website for a couple of hundred battlers a pop.

Bearing all of that mind and given how reticent the Aussie press have been about giving any compliments, I honestly think that the best thing that could happen for the tour as a whole is for the Lions to administer a monumental gubbing. I hope that they do because one thing is also true - we haven't seen the Lions play at anything like test levels of intensity and concentration for more than 10 minutes at a time so far.

by doctor_grey Sat Jun 15, 2013 8:46 am

That is a weird observation. Weird, but true.

by wales606 Sat Jun 15, 2013 8:47 am

No proper thread for the ABs game?

by Cari Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:30 am

COME ON YOU LIONS!!!!

by wales606 Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:33 am

Warburton is only being considered a 7?

Thats a pity, I wanted to see the Warbs/Tips combo again

by Cari Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:35 am

I think there's a few players who will playing for their position.

by maestegmafia Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:41 am

What a start

GO ZEBO

by BamBam Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:41 am

What a ball by Sexton!

by Cari Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:42 am

ZEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEBOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Lions V NSW Waratahs - Page 4 3933776953

If this is allowed, that's a top start - try at 47 seconds.

Arrrgh no, his foot was out!

by The Boss Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:42 am

Sooo close Zebooooo

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