Champions Trophy - England and Wales 2013

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Thu 13 Jun 2013, 7:11 pm

First topic message reminder :

Jayawardene does bugger all but scratch around for 18 balls looking horribly out of form, then comes down the track and smacks the bowler straight over his head for a six. Class!

Ball again. Jesus umpires, get on with it

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Fri 14 Jun 2013, 3:43 pm

Yeah I also agree that KP for Bell is the change I'd make too. I like Bell, and sometimes I think he gets a harsh time, but we'd be a much better ODI unit with KP opening instead

by NickisBHAFC Fri 14 Jun 2013, 4:45 pm

South Africa 192-4. Going to be a very interesting game. Very exciting as who ever wins goes through and who ever loses, is simply done. I fancy the West Indies tbh.

by subhranshu.kumar.5 Fri 14 Jun 2013, 5:47 pm

Its Gyle vs Steyn now. First bowl boundry but good recovery from steyn. 6 from the over.

by subhranshu.kumar.5 Fri 14 Jun 2013, 5:55 pm

Oh man a chance created by steyn but unfortunately dropped by duminy..Charles survived.

by subhranshu.kumar.5 Fri 14 Jun 2013, 6:04 pm

Steyn strikes..It was high in the air and a well judged catch by ABD. WI need to take calculated risk here.

by amanuensis Fri 14 Jun 2013, 6:06 pm

Mike Selig

You can say what you like about Bell, but he has outperformed Cook and Trott since his return to the side. Trott has a lot of red ink in that time, but a comfortably lower strike rate and far fewer big innings. As I said above, Trott is great if you believe the point of the format is to maximise individual averages - I don't, placing rather more store in the team actually winning matches.

Pietersen's return would be welcome if he can find form, but he's not an opener, except in Asian conditions.

by subhranshu.kumar.5 Fri 14 Jun 2013, 6:24 pm

Though Bell and Trott have scored runs but the pace they use for scoring will not favour the team till a strong middle order to follow. Though Root Bopara are following but still England missing the fire. This was visible in both the games. Though Aussies team was weak so proved handy for their pacers but against team of strong batting status, They will struggle like that against SL.

by subhranshu.kumar.5 Fri 14 Jun 2013, 6:25 pm

Gayle gone, superb thinking by Morris. WI in trouble. 75/2

by subhranshu.kumar.5 Fri 14 Jun 2013, 6:39 pm

Match stopped due to rain.

by Duty281 Fri 14 Jun 2013, 6:44 pm

amanuensis wrote:Mike Selig

You can say what you like about Bell, but he has outperformed Cook and Trott since his return to the side. Trott has a lot of red ink in that time, but a comfortably lower strike rate and far fewer big innings. As I said above, Trott is great if you believe the point of the format is to maximise individual averages - I don't, placing rather more store in the team actually winning matches.

Pietersen's return would be welcome if he can find form, but he's not an opener, except in Asian conditions.

Taking into account their entire ODI career:

Ian Bell's strike rate in ODIs is 74.82
Jonathan Trott's strike rate in ODIs is 76.42

Ian Bell has 30 scores of 50 or above in ODIs, with 3 tons, in 128 innings
Trott has 25 scores of 50 or above in ODIs, with 4 tons, in 58 innings

Ian Bell's ODI average is 37
Jonathan's Trott's average is 50

With Ian Bell in the side, England's victory percentage in ODIs is 45%
With Jonathan Trott in the side, England's victory percentage in ODIs is 61%

Trott is better, the stats prove it.

by amanuensis Fri 14 Jun 2013, 6:46 pm

Why not start with fewer overs per side with a forecast like this? Why do they always try to maximise total overs, when disruption is almost certain.

by Duty281 Fri 14 Jun 2013, 6:47 pm

Back out very quickly, the Saffers are nearly in the semis.

by subhranshu.kumar.5 Fri 14 Jun 2013, 6:53 pm

WI need 38 more runs in the next 3 overs to cross the D/L score.

by subhranshu.kumar.5 Fri 14 Jun 2013, 7:16 pm

Samuales is taking things away from SA.After Two big overs WI are now close to the D/L score. Steyn the fire gun for SA has done well till now but others are going hopeless for ABD.

by Duty281 Fri 14 Jun 2013, 7:24 pm

Massive wicket for SA there, potentially a match-winning wicket. Samuels gone.

by JDizzle Fri 14 Jun 2013, 7:24 pm

Bloody ridiculous shot from Samuels. Four off the first ball then bowled playing a horrible heave off Steyn second ball. Unless he felt it was about to pour it down and they needed to get ahead on D/L then it was a stupid shot.

by subhranshu.kumar.5 Fri 14 Jun 2013, 7:29 pm

Whats going on here..A wicket then a bouncer went past the keeper. The pressure is playing the game here. After 24 WI 172/4. Still 1 run behind.

by msp83 Fri 14 Jun 2013, 7:48 pm

Have been away for the entire day today and missed most of this game. The match is on a knife-edge. West Indies just nosed a head at 190-5 after 26 with the D/L par score at 186, but then Kiron Pollard give his wicket away with a poor shot to bring the par score up to 190.

by msp83 Fri 14 Jun 2013, 7:50 pm

Think that recklessness from Pollard is going to cause the West Indies. They've walked off, with the D/L scores level, and a resumption seems unlikely.

by DP Fri 14 Jun 2013, 7:50 pm

So who wins? Par D/L score, with both having lost 6 wickets...

by DP Fri 14 Jun 2013, 7:51 pm

Would it be a tie and the team with the higher net run rate going through?

by msp83 Fri 14 Jun 2013, 7:55 pm

DP wrote:Would it be a tie and the team with the higher net run rate going through?

Indeed it will be. A tie means both sides are on same 3 points, and looks like SA have the better NRR and they should go through. Bit of an irony there, South Africa have been done in by rain in some high-profile games in global tournaments in the past.

by subhranshu.kumar.5 Fri 14 Jun 2013, 7:56 pm

With no more play SA will join India in the semi finals as the points will be distributed and SA is having a better net run rate...

by DP Fri 14 Jun 2013, 7:57 pm

Match over.

South Africa through.

Shame that!

by Mike Selig Fri 14 Jun 2013, 7:58 pm

If no more play, it's a tie, and SA go through.

Two brainless shots have cost the West Indies dear - Samuels possibly the biggest culprit as taking on Steyn was utterly daft - clearly the danger man and you've just picked up a boundary, play the rest of the over out, simple common sense.

Pollard was looking for a boundary early on, so less culpable in my eyes.

Got to love Ian Ward - "nobody seems to have a clue what's going on", including you you imbecile.

Oh excellent, now they're all going to get on their high horses. Memo to commentators: just because you don't know what's going on doesn't mean nobody else does.

by Gerry SA Fri 14 Jun 2013, 8:02 pm

Thank God for the brainless Pollard saving the Proteas bacon!

by Mike Selig Fri 14 Jun 2013, 8:02 pm

So the umpires having presumably checked the regulations inform the teams and everybody else that the match has been abandoned - this happens just 10 minutes after the players come off.

Shambles? Not in my book anyway, perfectly well managed.

The only thing the sky commentators didn't seem to like was not being told before everyone else what was going on.

by msp83 Fri 14 Jun 2013, 8:03 pm

So India top their group regardless of what happens tomorrow. Tomorrow's game is just about the context of India-Pakistan.

by DP Fri 14 Jun 2013, 8:04 pm

I think the Windies may have got over the line, had it gone on.

You're right Mike, the commentator's didn't help!!

by Shelsey93 Fri 14 Jun 2013, 8:05 pm

Glad I wasn't the only one who thought it wasn't a shambles, Mike. As you say just leaving it as long as the regulations allow to be fair to WI, as well as checking things and then telling all the relevant people.

West Indies' fault really. A number of poor shots and some tactical misjudgments like sending Bravo in ahead of the others.

by subhranshu.kumar.5 Fri 14 Jun 2013, 8:11 pm

A bit unfortunate for the WI team. Pollard getting out at the crucial time when WI were all ahead before his exit. I was bit disheartened With WI exit. But now Group B is all over. India and SA full through.

by alfie Sat 15 Jun 2013, 6:28 am

mystiroakey wrote:Alfie- when KP is back. who goes?

It has to be bell surely.

We cant play bell later on in the innings- He cannot just pick up and play- he needs to get in first.

So by that rationale - forget the extra bolwer- just stick TAYLOR or Bairstow in .(whislt KP isnt about)

Root can fill in for kp in the open position whilst he isnt there and play at 4 when he is..

Root is adaptable. He has all the shots .. He moves, he understands field placements and he hits it around the park.. It can be very easy to set a field to limited cricketrs- not with touchy feely players like root, or sub continent batsmen

Sorry roakey...couldn't reply earlier , wasn't on...

Agree once KP is back Bell probably will be the one to go , assuming everyone else is still fit and on form...in truth Bell either opens in ODI , or doesn't play. Of course you never know whether KP will be keen on playing the format from one year to the next , so perhaps not quite certain , but most likely.

However KP isn't around for this CT (neither is Taylor) and I have largely been addressing the current situation. And I would sooner Bell opening with Root doing a good job at 4 than leap into the unknown with Bairstow at 4 right now.
Though seeing as Trott is apparently struggling with injury we may be forced to try something like that on Sunday anyway

Eventually Root will probably open in both forms of the game , but I am in no hurry.

by alfie Sat 15 Jun 2013, 6:36 am

Hmm. Somehow messed up the quote function there , but I think clear enough...

Didn't see SA and Wi . Pity the rain had such a big say , and West Indies will feel a bit unlucky no doubt.
But in general I'd say the two best teams from that group have ended up going through.

The other group still wide open: really hope weather doesn't wreck the two weekend games Fingers Crossed

by mystiroakey Sat 15 Jun 2013, 7:16 am

Yes that quote function doesnt allow you to post underneath anymore!!

by mystiroakey Sat 15 Jun 2013, 7:29 am

by the way I cant fault your argument .. I just wish we had a bit more flexibility on offer..

by alfie Sat 15 Jun 2013, 7:42 am

Yes I know what you mean about flexibility...sometimes wish England were more ready to switch the order around a bit to suit circumstances (as I think SA did yesterday ?)

But I suspect Cook is still feeling his way a bit , especially in ODIs , and in fact the whole team is seen as not quite the finished article ; so having a fixed game plan is preferred...perhaps as the whole Giles/Cook team grows in confidence we will see more readiness to adapt when necessary.

by LivinginItaly Sat 15 Jun 2013, 8:06 am

The lack of flexibility, or the unwillingness to change the plan depending on the circumstances is a worrying issue. I have no problem with our plan A, but surely we should have a plan B, or the ability to develop a plan B if and when circumstances dictate. As to the captain and coach being unsure or lacking confidence in this form of the game I'm afraid this view doesn't hold much weight for me. If anything this form of the game should be more natural for the players than a 5 day test, as right from schoolboy cricket they are playing lots of limited overs cricket. My biggest concern at the moment is that the england set up could react stubbornly to all the negative criticism they are attracting. I.e. they could dig their feet in and persist with plan A in an attempt to prove the detractors wrong.

by mystiroakey Sat 15 Jun 2013, 8:52 am

I think trott showed when batting alongside cook that he could start of batting at a 90 odd RR. he then slowed down when root came in and who went at a 120.

I have no idea why this type of batting doesnt happen when bell and trott bat together but hey ho..

The middle order did let us down. But i still cant understand why swann didnt come in instead of bresnan.

the commentrators cracked me up when SL brought there slogger(swann type) in early- they called him a 'night watchman type' and that the best batter should have come in.

That is the problem isnt it!!!

He wasnt a night watchman - he was there to try and maximise resources..

SL were spot on. But they are not a better team.. They are a good team with touchy players that can win games, The team allowed them to get to the total.. England assumed way to much on this - and to be honest we all did-We thought the job was complete with 293!

If it wasnt for bop we would have been mudered out there.

by LivinginItaly Sat 15 Jun 2013, 9:05 am

I agree trott played much more positively with cook. The problem seems to be the partnership with bell. I have been thinking maybe the blame lies more at the feet of bell. Maybe he tells trot to play the anchor role, whilst he will push the scoring along. However, bell often then struggles to play his role in the partnership culminating in him gifting his wicket trying to go over the top.

by mystiroakey Sat 15 Jun 2013, 9:28 am

We just have a couple of balance issues..

I also cant believe how toothless our bowling looked.. It looked as if we were that bygone team that only had 1 or 2 ok bolwers..

by msp83 Sat 15 Jun 2013, 9:31 am

Apart during the home ODI series against New Zealand, I have always maintained that when KP comes back, Bell has to go. In that series, Trott's approach was so frustrating that I even thought of him going out in favor of Pietersen. But I think my longterm view is better, Ian Bell it is who has to go when Pietersen comes back. Pietersen at the top can liberate the innings, and also let Cook play with more freedom. The opening partnership between the 2 was such a hit in the 5 games against Pakistan, so much so that they both combined for 5 hundreds, 3 from Cook, a couple from KP. Get Pietersen back in to open, Keep Trott at 3 but specifically tell him to bat with intent, like he did the other day against the Lankans, Root, Morgan, I would say Stokes at 6, a bit harsh on Bopara, but England need a better bowling option, Root and Bopara combining for 10 overs under the present regulations could often work against the team. Buttler, Swann should come ahead of Broad in ODIs at least, won't be a bad move in tests either considering the latter's form with the bat of late. Finn and Anderson to complete the attack.
Cook
Pietersen
Trott
Root
Morgan
Stokes
Buttler
Swann
Broad
Finn
Anderson.
Bopara as batting backup, Bairstow as wicketkeeping and batting cover, Tredwell as spin backup, Bresnan as seam bowling backup. Bell to be considered only in very specific circumstances, such as unavailability of Cook or Trott for a considerable period, like a series. The likes of Luke Wright and James Taylor should also be in the frame.

by msp83 Sat 15 Jun 2013, 9:35 am

England also have to scout for some quality seamers in ODIs. Unlike in tests, where the likes of Onions provide the team with depth, the ODI seen isn't great beyond Anderson, Finn and Broad. Bresnan can do a job, but that's about it at the moment. Dernbach is a good county bowler on a rare good day and should never be selected for England, I am not too sure Rankin got through because of sharp cricketing reasons. Meaker has the pace to trouble batsmen, Topley showed promise at the age group level, someone really need to come through sooner rather than later.

by mystiroakey Sat 15 Jun 2013, 9:56 am

Yep I am with you MSP!!!

by msp83 Sat 15 Jun 2013, 10:43 am

Pakistan brought in Kamran Akmal to opening replacing Imran Farhat, but their top order troubles continue. Nasir Jamshed who got a couple of start in the last 2 games goes early, caught Raina bowled Bhuvneshwar Kumar for 2.

by msp83 Sat 15 Jun 2013, 11:16 am

Hafeez and Akmal counterattacking here and they have been effective so far. Pakistan 43-1 after the powerplay. Not a bad start.

by msp83 Sat 15 Jun 2013, 11:31 am

This Champion's trophy is fast getting ruined by horrible weather.

by Shelsey93 Sat 15 Jun 2013, 11:32 am

Weather will be OK today... a few showers like this one will blow through but nothing will stick around for too long.

by msp83 Sat 15 Jun 2013, 11:40 am

Shelsey93 wrote:Weather will be OK today... a few showers like this one will blow through but nothing will stick around for too long.

That's good to hear shelsey. Even these passing stuff is quite irritating, and affect the momentum of an innings. And as of now, I understand it is slated to be an atrocious day tomorrow.

by msp83 Sat 15 Jun 2013, 11:45 am

First ball after the restart, India get a wicket, Bhuvneshwar Kumar yet again. Hafeez edging behind, for Dhoni to take a very good catch. Pakistan 50-2. Asad Shafiq, who has come back into the side in at 4.

by msp83 Sat 15 Jun 2013, 11:48 am

Now spin on, and its R Ashwin.

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