Australia vs British and Irish Lions - 22nd June : TEST 1 BUILDUP

by wales606 Sat 15 Jun 2013, 7:00 pm

First topic message reminder :

So, it's only a week to go before the first Lions test for 4 years.

Gatland has a host of injuries and a game against the Brumbies to manoeuvre while deciding the 23 players who will take to the pitch next Saturday.

Christian Wade and Brad Barritt have both been called up to cover for injury concerns over Jamie Roberts, Manu Tuilagi, Tommy Bowe and George North

My team for Saturday

1. Maku Vunipola
2. Tom Youngs
3. Adam Jones
4. Alun Wyn Jones
5. Paul O'Connell
6. Tom Croft
7. Sam Warburton
8. Toby Faletau
9. Mike Phillips
10. Jonathan Sexton
11. George North (Simon Zebo)
12. Jonathan Davies
13. Brian O'Driscoll
14. Alex Cuthbert
15. Leigh Halfpenny

16. Richard Hibbard
17. Alex Corbisiero
18. Dan Cole
19. Richie Gray
20. Justin Tipuric
21. Ben Youngs
22. Owen Farrell
23. Manu Tuilagi/Stuart Hogg

Thoughts?

by Hookisms and Hyperbole Sat 22 Jun 2013, 7:32 pm

I'd probably pick Bowe in front of Maitland on the basis that he's a far superior player. I'm old fashioned like that

by wales606 Sat 22 Jun 2013, 7:34 pm

George Carlin wrote:
wales606 wrote:
George Carlin wrote:

Finally, people removing Maitland to replace him with Roberts or Bowe.

Bowe can play 11, 13, 14 and 15

1 more position than Maitland
Right. When was the last time he played full back or centre, exactly? Or are you basing Tommy's centre prowess on one match in 2009 when BOD and Roberts being out forced him to play there as emergency cover. Bowe is a centre in the same way that Nick Phipps was a winger today.

???

He played 13 a lot when he was at the O's, he has played there for Ireland and the Lions (not sure about Ulster)

by ChequeredJersey Sat 22 Jun 2013, 7:37 pm

Not that I'm hugely adverse to Maitland taking the bench spot, but doesn't Hogg cover 15, 14, 11 and 13? And at a massive stretch, 10?

by ChequeredJersey Sat 22 Jun 2013, 7:44 pm

When do we hear about the REbels match?

by Sin é Sat 22 Jun 2013, 7:49 pm

wales606 wrote:
George Carlin wrote:
wales606 wrote:
George Carlin wrote:

Finally, people removing Maitland to replace him with Roberts or Bowe.

Bowe can play 11, 13, 14 and 15

1 more position than Maitland
Right. When was the last time he played full back or centre, exactly? Or are you basing Tommy's centre prowess on one match in 2009 when BOD and Roberts being out forced him to play there as emergency cover. Bowe is a centre in the same way that Nick Phipps was a winger today.

???

He played 13 a lot when he was at the O's, he has played there for Ireland and the Lions (not sure about Ulster)

No, he hasn't played in the centre for Ireland and fairly doubtful that he played there for Ulster since he moved to the Ospreys.

by The Saint Sat 22 Jun 2013, 8:36 pm

George Carlin wrote:
glamorganalun wrote:If Roberts is fit he covers wing and FB as well as 12 and 13 he also tackles unlike some.
Pathetic.

Is it? To be fair you said Roberts could only cover one position which isn't the case. Does Maitland play anywhere other than wing often?
Interesting broken record back up there too, but if you had been reading properly then you would see pretty much everybody believes Ben Youngs should start the next test. He was in the test team in merit BTW. Any chance to have a go at Mike Phillips and you moaning Scots sure do take up the opportunity, that is what's pathetic.

by ChequeredJersey Sat 22 Jun 2013, 8:38 pm

The Saint wrote:
George Carlin wrote:
glamorganalun wrote:If Roberts is fit he covers wing and FB as well as 12 and 13 he also tackles unlike some.
Pathetic.

Is it? To be fair you said Roberts could only cover one position which isn't the case. Does Maitland play anywhere other than wing often?
Interesting broken record back up there too, but if you had been reading properly then you would see pretty much everybody believes Youngs should start the next test.

Maitland has definitely played a fair bit of FB

by The Saint Sat 22 Jun 2013, 8:40 pm

I'm aware he can play full back, but apart from the Lions he hasn't played there for a long time even for Canterbury had he?

by Sin é Sat 22 Jun 2013, 8:43 pm

I don't think Youngs should start. Gatland has been banging on about using existing partnerships etc. like Welsh back 3 and English front row etc. How about putting an established partnership of Heislip 8, Murray 9 and 10 Sexton. Sexton has to cope with a new 9 and a new 12 outside him.

Apart from anything else, Youngs was pretty poor against the Brumbies. He was easily got to.

by Sin é Sat 22 Jun 2013, 8:50 pm

The Saint wrote:I'm aware he can play full back, but apart from the Lions he hasn't played there for a long time even for Canterbury had he?

3 times in his last last 3 seasons for Glasgow & Crusaders.

by tatterd Sat 22 Jun 2013, 9:31 pm

Just read through this entire thread after having chance to sit down at my laptop. My view - yes we were lucky, but after the heartache suffered through a couple of narrow defeats last summer for Wales v Aus, I'll take one that came out on our side for a change. Thought most of the lions starting XV did ok - Phillips aside who has a shocker. Why nobody can teach the bloke to boxkick properly is anyone's guess - he's done it awfully for years. One poster who has made me laugh reading through the thread though is this bloke "hookisms and hyperbloe", His philosophy can be pretty much summed up as:
"all Irish players are Gods"
"all Welsh (and most of the English) players are rubbish".
I've seen cyclops that are less one eyed!
Fair do's mate you've given me a laugh. Perhaps we should start the entire Irish XV in Melbourne............

by SecretFly Sat 22 Jun 2013, 9:36 pm

tatterd wrote:Just read through this entire thread after having chance to sit down at my laptop. My view - yes we were lucky, but after the heartache suffered through a couple of narrow defeats last summer for Wales v Aus, I'll take one that came out on our side for a change. Thought most of the lions starting XV did ok - Phillips aside who has a shocker. Why nobody can teach the bloke to boxkick properly is anyone's guess - he's done it awfully for years. One poster who has made me laugh reading through the thread though is this bloke "hookisms and hyperbloe", His philosophy can be pretty much summed up as:
"all Irish players are Gods"
"all Welsh (and most of the English) players are rubbish".
I've seen cyclops that are less one eyed!
Fair do's mate you've given me a laugh. Perhaps we should start the entire Irish XV in Melbourne............

An Irish XV would have as good a shot at them as a Lions XV. Wink

Don't over-sell The Lions. All these players have homes to go to when not wearing the Lions jerseys.

by Rory_Gallagher Sat 22 Jun 2013, 9:50 pm

tatterd wrote:Just read through this entire thread after having chance to sit down at my laptop. My view - yes we were lucky, but after the heartache suffered through a couple of narrow defeats last summer for Wales v Aus, I'll take one that came out on our side for a change. Thought most of the lions starting XV did ok - Phillips aside who has a shocker. Why nobody can teach the bloke to boxkick properly is anyone's guess - he's done it awfully for years. One poster who has made me laugh reading through the thread though is this bloke "hookisms and hyperbloe", His philosophy can be pretty much summed up as:
"all Irish players are Gods"
"all Welsh (and most of the English) players are rubbish".
I've seen cyclops that are less one eyed!
Fair do's mate you've given me a laugh. Perhaps we should start the entire Irish XV in Melbourne............

How childish. Maybe you could sum it up like that if you are a 10 year old, but for those who aren't huffy welsh fans you can see none of his posts resemble anything like that. One thing about Hookisms, he is generally rather impartial and very critical of even his own players. If you want proof, read the irish threads and what he has to say about a lot of the players.

He will rate certain players from his country over yours just as you will do the same in reverse. Now, grow up. thumbsup

by **George Carlin** Sat 22 Jun 2013, 9:55 pm

The Saint wrote:
George Carlin wrote:
glamorganalun wrote:If Roberts is fit he covers wing and FB as well as 12 and 13 he also tackles unlike some.
Pathetic.

Is it? To be fair you said Roberts could only cover one position which isn't the case. Does Maitland play anywhere other than wing often?
Interesting broken record back up there too, but if you had been reading properly then you would see pretty much everybody believes Ben Youngs should start the next test. He was in the test team in merit BTW. Any chance to have a go at Mike Phillips and you moaning Scots sure do take up the opportunity, that is what's pathetic.

I posted many times before the match saying that Philips should start and that he's played well midweek. I'm not "having a go at Philips". I just said that Australia targeted him and did so successfully. If "pretty much everybody believes Ben Youngs should start the next test", then why are apparently all Scotland fans the people you're p!ssed at?

by tatterd Sat 22 Jun 2013, 9:58 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
tatterd wrote:Just read through this entire thread after having chance to sit down at my laptop. My view - yes we were lucky, but after the heartache suffered through a couple of narrow defeats last summer for Wales v Aus, I'll take one that came out on our side for a change. Thought most of the lions starting XV did ok - Phillips aside who has a shocker. Why nobody can teach the bloke to boxkick properly is anyone's guess - he's done it awfully for years. One poster who has made me laugh reading through the thread though is this bloke "hookisms and hyperbloe", His philosophy can be pretty much summed up as:
"all Irish players are Gods"
"all Welsh (and most of the English) players are rubbish".
I've seen cyclops that are less one eyed!
Fair do's mate you've given me a laugh. Perhaps we should start the entire Irish XV in Melbourne............

How childish. Maybe you could sum it up like that if you are a 10 year old, but for those who aren't huffy welsh fans you can see none of his posts resemble anything like that. One thing about Hookisms, he is generally rather impartial and very critical of even his own players. If you want proof, read the irish threads and what he has to say about a lot of the players.

He will rate certain players from his country over yours just as you will do the same in reverse. Now, grow up.

Mate I have neither the time or the energy to trawl through the Irish threads. I call it as I see it and on this thread the guy has been nothing but critical of all things other than Irish. If you can't see he comes across as one eyed then fair enough but ...........eeesh - he would make me cringe if I were Irish. Anyway - I'm off before I get done for attacking a poster not a post. Good luck to the boys in red (Irish, English, Welsh and Scottish) next week

by stlowe Sat 22 Jun 2013, 10:27 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:
glamorganalun wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:I don't agree that when a 7 makes the most tackles in the game he is doing the job of a 6. That is a strange way of looking at it. A lot of opensides are often the top tackler in the back row. Why do you think Richie McCaw is known as "Captain Tackles"? Chris Henry often makes the most tackles for Ulster and yet we applaud him as one of the best 7s in Ireland.

I haven't seen the game yet, but it sounds strange to criticise Warburton for making the most tackles. Very strange.

Well said, if the other side is constantly going blind you expect the 6 or 8 to make the most tackles.

It is interesting some on here are picking stats POC was better than AWJ, he played 80mins not 50 mins, they both had good games, another BOD made more tackles than JD2, he only ran 6 metres against JDs 22, again both had good games (may not have linked that great) and then Heaslip had a great game, did he? he carried 13m for a number 8!

I think Croft will be dropped for the next game, the Lions need a tight back row all doing the work not out wide taking the space of the wings, he screwed a good chance of a try hanging on to the ball.

I'm dubious about ESPN's stats anyway, mate, think they may change a bit later today. We can't have only missed 7 tackles.

Yep, CJ that often happens with the ESPN stats. They are revised a second time and updated.

B&I Lions Official stats (from their website for each game).

http://www.lionsrugby.com/2013tour/12243.php

http://www.lionsrugby.com/2013tour/match_centre_2013.php?section=playstatsaway&fixid=169134

Thanks, didn't know about that. If it says we only missed 7 tackles, fair enough. Seemed like a lot more given the nature of their breaks

Both those sources have their stats supplied by Opta, which I believe is the world's biggest sports data company, providing most of the big broadcasters, media, teams and bookmakers. I remember seing a video on how they do it and for big games they have analysts watching live to provide stats on the go. The videos are later reviewed and with the benefit of pause, rewind & zoom, the on the fly stats corrected if need be. My experience is that with most games being played at the weekend they tend to have any corrections to the original stats out by Monday lunch.

by glamorganalun Sat 22 Jun 2013, 10:51 pm

George Carlin wrote:
glamorganalun wrote:If Roberts is fit he covers wing and FB as well as 12 and 13 he also tackles unlike some.
Pathetic.

As a sub not a starter to replace Maitland, he played FB for Wales at U20 and wing at the Blues ( a bit slow but try stopping him). Bowe played a lot of games at outside centre for the Ospreys but was found out in defence as they were using the rush defence at the time, great wing but has pace for outside centre.

by wales606 Sat 22 Jun 2013, 10:54 pm

glamorganalun wrote:
George Carlin wrote:
glamorganalun wrote:If Roberts is fit he covers wing and FB as well as 12 and 13 he also tackles unlike some.
Pathetic.

As a sub not a starter to replace Maitland, he played FB for Wales at U20 and wing at the Blues ( a bit slow but try stopping him). Bowe played a lot of games at outside centre for the Ospreys but was found out in defence as they were using the rush defence at the time, great wing but has pace for outside centre.

Roberts played for Wales at FB and on the wing to begin with.

by doctor_grey Sun 23 Jun 2013, 12:14 am

How many years ago was that? I really don't remember him playing there.

by Hookisms and Hyperbole Sun 23 Jun 2013, 12:23 am

tatterd wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
tatterd wrote:Just read through this entire thread after having chance to sit down at my laptop. My view - yes we were lucky, but after the heartache suffered through a couple of narrow defeats last summer for Wales v Aus, I'll take one that came out on our side for a change. Thought most of the lions starting XV did ok - Phillips aside who has a shocker. Why nobody can teach the bloke to boxkick properly is anyone's guess - he's done it awfully for years. One poster who has made me laugh reading through the thread though is this bloke "hookisms and hyperbloe", His philosophy can be pretty much summed up as:
"all Irish players are Gods"
"all Welsh (and most of the English) players are rubbish".
I've seen cyclops that are less one eyed!
Fair do's mate you've given me a laugh. Perhaps we should start the entire Irish XV in Melbourne............

How childish. Maybe you could sum it up like that if you are a 10 year old, but for those who aren't huffy welsh fans you can see none of his posts resemble anything like that. One thing about Hookisms, he is generally rather impartial and very critical of even his own players. If you want proof, read the irish threads and what he has to say about a lot of the players.

He will rate certain players from his country over yours just as you will do the same in reverse. Now, grow up.
Mate I have neither the time or the energy to trawl through the Irish threads. I call it as I see it and on this thread the guy has been nothing but critical of all things other than Irish. If you can't see he comes across as one eyed then fair enough but ...........eeesh - he would make me cringe if I were Irish. Anyway - I'm off before I get done for attacking a poster not a post. Good luck to the boys in red (Irish, English, Welsh and Scottish) next week

Awk pudding, have I upset you? I'm terribly sorry that you are such a sensitive sausage. If you want to highlight where I have been 'one eyed' I'd be delighted to hear it (or see it suppose since its written online).

The only thing I can possibly think of is my opinion on Warburton's captaincy. Someone, I can't remember who, asked me about this earlier but I haven't been on since to answer so apologies. I thought he seemed meek and demure with the referee. Warburton is a jolly nice chap and is terribly polite with the referee, no bad thing. But it seemed the players looked towards POC and BOD for leadership and not Warburton today. It appeared that in the post match huddle on the pitch it was BOD leading the teamtalk. Warburton was in the circle too before heading to be interviewed. Warburton is I think is struggling to assert his leadership over those senior players. I'm sure that would happen to anyone else in his position. It doesn't make Warburton a bad player or captain, but I'm not convinced that he is the right man for this environment. Plus he didn't really play all that well. I mean he worked hard and put in a few tackles, but is that really enough to say he did well, that he was outstanding. That other Irish 7 should be in the side, its obvious. That Murphy O'Tipuric fella. His da fixed the roads.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjl8OIZijjY

Sorry if that is 'one eyed' for you tatterd. Poor petal.

Other than that, this 'Irish players are Gods' statement is just moronic. Well done you. Lets put it this way, Sin has been on this board copiously today and you are still the holder of the most idiotic post. thumbsup

There really should be an award for that. Maybe the first annual Bluesmancometh memorial award.

The three best Lions performers were (in order):
Youngs, Corbiserio, BOD. Hardly unreasonable. North's try was magnificent but he wasn't really in the game that much. Can't really blame him as the backline struggled to get the ball. Still a good performance though. Cuthbert's try was excellent but he was exposed positionally far too often. Davies played well enough and grew into his position. I wasn't impressed with Sexton really. The tactics of standing so deep added to the dreadful performance of Phillips must have brought him back to playing in green under Kidney. Sexton needs to stand flat and attack the line, otherwise he's a very average looking 10. Ah but sure, he's a God. I must be a one eyed Irishman fiddle de de, top of the mornin to ya, chuckie our la, emmmmmmmm.......something about Guinness. And Leprechauns.

Only Phillips for me was shocking. And he was. The worst international scrum half performance wince Bergimasco as FA0019 so rightly stated.

Maybe the fact that I said POC clearly outperformed AWJ upset you. My poor sad little petit pois. I must have made up all those pesky stats that codify that POC outperformed him in every facet of the game. How unfortunate for you. But then, I am a Machiavellian genius, paying ESPN, Opta and others just so I could make my one eyed point. And I would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for you meddling kid!

by ME-109 Sun 23 Jun 2013, 12:43 am

All very good, except trying to blame kidney for Sextons lack of ability doesn't work now...i liked his attempt at a tackle though. At least ROG got his hands on the opposing player
Flippin heck, maybe ROG is going as defensive coach to Racing as well...it all makes sense now

by Hookisms and Hyperbole Sun 23 Jun 2013, 12:48 am

ME-109 wrote:All very good, except trying to blame kidney for Sextons lack of ability doesn't work now...i liked his attempt at a tackle though. At least ROG got his hands on the opposing player

Nonsense DOD and you know it...he didn't even attempt the tackle. Dreadful. Sexton can't play from deep. He has never done it for Ireland under Kidney and he won't do it for the Lions. He needs to stand flat. Its obvious. If Gatland wants a deep lying 10 he should have picked Wilkinson.

by ME-109 Sun 23 Jun 2013, 12:51 am

Sextons a vg player, its just Gatland will wreck his head...

by SecretFly Sun 23 Jun 2013, 12:55 am

It could be called not playing all your cards and still winning...........................just! Gamble paid off. There is no way on Earth that the Lions can't play a more commanding decisive game than the sad excuse of yesterday.

Or................... the Lions have been already found out by a misfiring, stretcher-prone Aussie team that will now work on their discoveries in the next two tests and really turn the screw on the poor Lions Baustids!

by Gibson Sun 23 Jun 2013, 1:09 am

Youngs and Sexton must be paired for the 2nd Test, or it will be lost.

As will the Series.

Phillips is tres one-dimensional. Far too easily read, in his predictable unpredictability. Far too much gung-ho and not enough need-know at the high-end. He stymies this side. Murray is a bad copy of him. Youngs and Sexton, given the chance, will take home the bacon. They are custom-made for each other. They'll bring the Rugby Love to all around them... and fast. We need to take the Aussies on at their own game and win this Mother. I hope Gats can see it as well.
If ye cant see it, ye are short-sighted, cyclopean - imbeciles. Please don't take that wrong mind. Its just an opinion.

Sexton died on the field today, because of Phillips greed and his lack of game-intelligence, at the high-end. Genia was laughing in his face. The ball was coming to JS (when Phillips wasn't sniping and getting caught that is), far too slowly to get us going. And with that, the Lions impetus died. We were beyond lucky today. No matter how you dress it up. Use the ref ja.. but they had us today. They let it slip.

Need BOD to take a rest as well. Hurts me to say it. Love him big time... so happy he even made it to a 4th Tour (He's no 5 x Tour Gibson mind). But, rest him for this one. Give him the glory of winning the 3rd one. After we nail this one. Life can be cruel sometimes, if you let it rule your heart.

I dont think Gats is a pussey. A total gobshoite maybe... but not a pussey. He will make the calls.

Manu in with Davies. Like BOD, Roberts is not the man he once was. They both shone together in 2009. A joy to watch, but its time lads.

Bowe in. SOB in. Lydiate in. Tipuric on the bench. Kearney too. Those aforementioned, are gagging at the very thoughts of it. Instant immortality. Thats what we need to nail it. Fresh hungry, raw, impetus in the last 20.

Lets put this series to bed, mo Lions charas.

Believe.

by Taylorman Sun 23 Jun 2013, 1:24 am

Last nights match will serve to ignite huge interest in the remainder of the tour. It had everything out of a great Shakespearian play...tragedy, drama, comedy, power struggles and high octane tension...

...bring on acts 2 and 3 I say... Yahoo

by Hookisms and Hyperbole Sun 23 Jun 2013, 1:26 am

Gibbo you rascal, you are right on the 9/10 front. Unfortunately Phillips will not be dropped. He's 'integral to the gameplan'....or something. Honestly, Bergamasco would have been better today. As bad a performance as I have seen from a 9 at this level. It happens, I'm sure he couldn't possibly be as bad again. But Gatland won't drop him. Let's put that issue to bed. Sexton can't play off slow ball. I know your love for him. Its tender and beautiful Gibbo. I'm not sure if its agape or storge love, but one of the two. Maybe a bit of both. Agtorge or stgape. Sounds like a venereal disease frankly. Yes Gibbo, I went for the lowest common denominator joke there and I'm not even sorry.

Anyway Sexton can't play from deep with slow ball. He needs quick ball and lying flat otherwise there's no point in him. Either 9 or 10 should be changed next week. It should be Phillips. But it won't, so Farrell has to start.

Also, BOD will start next week. He was probably the best Lions back (it would have been North if he saw more ball. He can thank Phillips for that too) and he was also the best Lions backrower as well. He won't be dropped. He's too good, too important. Maybe Davies will have to drop down. Thats a shame for him, he's had a good tour. But BOD is still the best 13 there is outside of Conrad Smith. His flicks and passing and defence and sheer will to compete for every ball at the breakdown shamed Warburton and Croft. He was a leader in red today and the Lions sorely need them. I think Warburton is a fantastic player, but he isn't playing well and he isn't the guy to lead this team. Even on one leg Bod'll play next week, which more or less sums up the last year of his Irish career. And let's cut the career reward nonsense on the head. He'll start next week on merit.

by Gibson Sun 23 Jun 2013, 2:07 am

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Gibbo you rascal, you are right on the 9/10 front. Unfortunately Phillips will not be dropped. He's 'integral to the gameplan'....or something. Honestly, Bergamasco would have been better today. As bad a performance as I have seen from a 9 at this level. It happens, I'm sure he couldn't possibly be as bad again. But Gatland won't drop him. Let's put that issue to bed. Sexton can't play off slow ball. I know your love for him. Its tender and beautiful Gibbo. I'm not sure if its agape or storge love, but one of the two. Maybe a bit of both. Agtorge or stgape. Sounds like a venereal disease frankly. Yes Gibbo, I went for the lowest common denominator joke there and I'm not even sorry.

Anyway Sexton can't play from deep with slow ball. He needs quick ball and lying flat otherwise there's no point in him. Either 9 or 10 should be changed next week. It should be Phillips. But it won't, so Farrell has to start.

Also, BOD will start next week. He was probably the best Lions back (it would have been North if he saw more ball. He can thank Phillips for that too) and he was also the best Lions backrower as well. He won't be dropped. He's too good, too important. Maybe Davies will have to drop down. Thats a shame for him, he's had a good tour. But BOD is still the best 13 there is outside of Conrad Smith. His flicks and passing and defence and sheer will to compete for every ball at the breakdown shamed Warburton and Croft. He was a leader in red today and the Lions sorely need them. I think Warburton is a fantastic player, but he isn't playing well and he isn't the guy to lead this team. Even on one leg Bod'll play next week, which more or less sums up the last year of his Irish career. And let's cut the career reward nonsense on the head. He'll start next week on merit.

You carry on educatin' the chlider, Hook me darlin. You do that posting voodoo, like youdoo... so well. Would not change a space on that post. Suffice it to say, I'll bring the drinks, drugs, whores and the restraints. Just as long as you do the talkin.

by Gibson Sun 23 Jun 2013, 2:14 am

TaylormanLast nights match will serve to ignite huge interest in the remainder of the tour. It had everything out of a great Shakespearian play...tragedy, drama, comedy, power struggles and high octane tension...

...bring on acts 2 and 3 I say...

for the Taylorman. Love people who just love the rugby and its code, ya know?

by hawalsh Sun 23 Jun 2013, 4:42 am

Pretty unimpressed by that performance, we knew we were going to be 2nd best in the backs, but their forwards outplayed us as well. The gameplan was ineffective, unimaginative, easily contained by Australia. Where was the step up in the Lions we were told to expect? I didn't see anything that was kept in reserve.

We were incredibly lucky to win and didn't deserve to. Short of a serious rethink or just hoping that Australia have another ridiculous run of injuries and complete kicking disaster, I can't see us winning another test.

Just really disappointed, I expected more than this. I can't remember a Lions test win that felt so cheap.

by BigTrevsbigmac Sun 23 Jun 2013, 6:33 am

hawalsh wrote:Pretty unimpressed by that performance, we knew we were going to be 2nd best in the backs, but their forwards outplayed us as well. The gameplan was ineffective, unimaginative, easily contained by Australia. Where was the step up in the Lions we were told to expect? I didn't see anything that was kept in reserve.

We were incredibly lucky to win and didn't deserve to. Short of a serious rethink or just hoping that Australia have another ridiculous run of injuries and complete kicking disaster, I can't see us winning another test.

Just really disappointed, I expected more than this. I can't remember a Lions test win that felt so cheap.

Yes Gatland was wrong to say we deserved to win, we were lucky but take it & move on.

Subs were brought on unnecessarily & crucially at the wrong time. Why aren't the coaches playing 'heads up rugby'.

Phillips should have been taken off at half time at the latest. The front row should have stayed on longer. These were obvious decisions to anyone watching not just the benefit of hindsight.

Next test :-

Youngs for Phillips.
Bowe for Cuthbert
Manu for JD
SOB for Lydiate

by tatterd Sun 23 Jun 2013, 7:48 am

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:
tatterd wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
tatterd wrote:Just read through this entire thread after having chance to sit down at my laptop. My view - yes we were lucky, but after the heartache suffered through a couple of narrow defeats last summer for Wales v Aus, I'll take one that came out on our side for a change. Thought most of the lions starting XV did ok - Phillips aside who has a shocker. Why nobody can teach the bloke to boxkick properly is anyone's guess - he's done it awfully for years. One poster who has made me laugh reading through the thread though is this bloke "hookisms and hyperbloe", His philosophy can be pretty much summed up as:
"all Irish players are Gods"
"all Welsh (and most of the English) players are rubbish".
I've seen cyclops that are less one eyed!
Fair do's mate you've given me a laugh. Perhaps we should start the entire Irish XV in Melbourne............

How childish. Maybe you could sum it up like that if you are a 10 year old, but for those who aren't huffy welsh fans you can see none of his posts resemble anything like that. One thing about Hookisms, he is generally rather impartial and very critical of even his own players. If you want proof, read the irish threads and what he has to say about a lot of the players.

He will rate certain players from his country over yours just as you will do the same in reverse. Now, grow up.
Mate I have neither the time or the energy to trawl through the Irish threads. I call it as I see it and on this thread the guy has been nothing but critical of all things other than Irish. If you can't see he comes across as one eyed then fair enough but ...........eeesh - he would make me cringe if I were Irish. Anyway - I'm off before I get done for attacking a poster not a post. Good luck to the boys in red (Irish, English, Welsh and Scottish) next week

Awk pudding, have I upset you? I'm terribly sorry that you are such a sensitive sausage. If you want to highlight where I have been 'one eyed' I'd be delighted to hear it (or see it suppose since its written online).

The only thing I can possibly think of is my opinion on Warburton's captaincy. Someone, I can't remember who, asked me about this earlier but I haven't been on since to answer so apologies. I thought he seemed meek and demure with the referee. Warburton is a jolly nice chap and is terribly polite with the referee, no bad thing. But it seemed the players looked towards POC and BOD for leadership and not Warburton today. It appeared that in the post match huddle on the pitch it was BOD leading the teamtalk. Warburton was in the circle too before heading to be interviewed. Warburton is I think is struggling to assert his leadership over those senior players. I'm sure that would happen to anyone else in his position. It doesn't make Warburton a bad player or captain, but I'm not convinced that he is the right man for this environment. Plus he didn't really play all that well. I mean he worked hard and put in a few tackles, but is that really enough to say he did well, that he was outstanding. That other Irish 7 should be in the side, its obvious. That Murphy O'Tipuric fella. His da fixed the roads.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjl8OIZijjY

Sorry if that is 'one eyed' for you tatterd. Poor petal.

Other than that, this 'Irish players are Gods' statement is just moronic. Well done you. Lets put it this way, Sin has been on this board copiously today and you are still the holder of the most idiotic post. There really should be an award for that. Maybe the first annual Bluesmancometh memorial award.

The three best Lions performers were (in order):
Youngs, Corbiserio, BOD. Hardly unreasonable. North's try was magnificent but he wasn't really in the game that much. Can't really blame him as the backline struggled to get the ball. Still a good performance though. Cuthbert's try was excellent but he was exposed positionally far too often. Davies played well enough and grew into his position. I wasn't impressed with Sexton really. The tactics of standing so deep added to the dreadful performance of Phillips must have brought him back to playing in green under Kidney. Sexton needs to stand flat and attack the line, otherwise he's a very average looking 10. Ah but sure, he's a God. I must be a one eyed Irishman fiddle de de, top of the mornin to ya, chuckie our la, emmmmmmmm.......something about Guinness. And Leprechauns.

Only Phillips for me was shocking. And he was. The worst international scrum half performance wince Bergimasco as FA0019 so rightly stated.

Maybe the fact that I said POC clearly outperformed AWJ upset you. My poor sad little petit pois. I must have made up all those pesky stats that codify that POC outperformed him in every facet of the game. How unfortunate for you. But then, I am a Machiavellian genius, paying ESPN, Opta and others just so I could make my one eyed point. And I would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for you meddling kid!

Did I say I was offended pal? Not in the least, I just said your posts made me laugh. Looking forward to the next bout of pro Irish/anti-everyone else idiocy from you soon thumbsup

by littlejohn Sun 23 Jun 2013, 7:51 am

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
hawalsh wrote:Pretty unimpressed by that performance, we knew we were going to be 2nd best in the backs, but their forwards outplayed us as well. The gameplan was ineffective, unimaginative, easily contained by Australia. Where was the step up in the Lions we were told to expect? I didn't see anything that was kept in reserve.

We were incredibly lucky to win and didn't deserve to. Short of a serious rethink or just hoping that Australia have another ridiculous run of injuries and complete kicking disaster, I can't see us winning another test.

Just really disappointed, I expected more than this. I can't remember a Lions test win that felt so cheap.

Yes Gatland was wrong to say we deserved to win, we were lucky but take it & move on.

Subs were brought on unnecessarily & crucially at the wrong time. Why aren't the coaches playing 'heads up rugby'.

Phillips should have been taken off at half time at the latest. The front row should have stayed on longer. These were obvious decisions to anyone watching not just the benefit of hindsight.

Next test :-

Youngs for Phillips.
Bowe for Cuthbert
Manu for JD
SOB for Lydiate

Good choices there. Can see gatland sticking with lydiate and maybe even starting him at 6. Also if roberts is fit he will have more chance going in at 12.

by Taylorman Sun 23 Jun 2013, 8:37 am

Yes wouldnt have agreed with Phillips out before this match but its cear the game is much faster at this level these days and Phillips is struggling to match the need for it. Won't play another test at start. That was pretty clear.

Means Gatland is going for attack by default which aginst oz is a risk in itself.

So Cuthbert has to stay. He has a regular sniff for the try line at this level so Gatland would bee mad to change that.

But geez Oz will come back strongly from this. They'll be hurting in more ways than one so expecting huge fireworks next week.

by Guest Sun 23 Jun 2013, 9:10 am

Taylorman wrote:Yes wouldnt have agreed with Phillips out before this match but its cear the game is much faster at this level these days and Phillips is struggling to match the need for it. Won't play another test at start. That was pretty clear.

Means Gatland is going for attack by default which aginst oz is a risk in itself.

So Cuthbert has to stay. He has a regular sniff for the try line at this level so Gatland would bee mad to change that.

But geez Oz will come back strongly from this. They'll be hurting in more ways than one so expecting huge fireworks next week.

Welsh fans have been calling for Gatland to drop Phillips for Wales for years, but he never does. He's pig headed. He won't drop Phillips next week, even if he should.

by doctor_grey Sun 23 Jun 2013, 9:23 am

This was such a tight test which Lions could easily have lost. Fine margins, eh? I thought the Lions were not clinical on attack. Good, but not great. Possibly more match time together will improve this? Or do we need a few changes? The North try was a real solo effort. The Wallaby tries were long range counter attacking tries. Certainly the LIons were fortunate the Wallaby kicking was off.

Considering the Wallabies will likely come back stronger, any changes have to give an extra edge. And the Lions did appear to need an extra attacking edge, as we saw the Lions go through 20 phases before the turnover leading to the Wallabies first try. Cannot be change for change. And O'Driscoll said, the Lions need to look after the contact area better.

To that point, I'd have to agree that Ben Youngs has to start over Mike Phillips. If Cuthbert is substituted, then Bowe really needs to show he is in top shape. Not sure how I feel in the centres. Not a lot of creativity, but not sure if there are better options. Davies to be substituted? By whom?

The Lions cannot allow the scrum failures of the end of the match to recur. I know that was with the substitutes on, but I wouldn't mind seeing Sean O'Brian for Lydiate. I thought Croft was fine? Not sure where he is accused of not getting the job done.

by tatterd Sun 23 Jun 2013, 9:39 am

don't know if anyone's mentioned the 10 point swing at the start of the game. If the lions knock on after the pen was given - they take the kick and go 3 nil up. Instead they carry on playing, advantage is called over (which for a pen advantage it most sincerely was not), 5 seconds later Aus get a pen, tap and go - and its 0-7.

by **George Carlin** Sun 23 Jun 2013, 9:45 am

In case anyone wants to start the banter about the next game:
https://www.606v2.com/t45633-melbourne-rebels-v-british-irish-lions-25-june

by The Saint Sun 23 Jun 2013, 11:03 am

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

Other than that, this 'Irish players are Gods' statement is just moronic. Well done you. Lets put it this way, Sin has been on this board copiously today and you are still the holder of the most idiotic post. There really should be an award for that. Maybe the first annual Bluesmancometh memorial award.

Brilliant

.
I did think you were being green-eyed at times. But now I see you wasn't and you've backed up your statements thumbsup

.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Sun 23 Jun 2013, 11:28 am

Youngs for Philips is crucial.

Philips' style does not work against the Aussies. I agreed with his selection as he was the best option but this performance has shown that he hamstrings the backline and his running game is ineffective because he waits for so long at the base before he picks and goes.

by GunsGerms Mon 24 Jun 2013, 9:20 am

Was quite disapointed with two things in this game: The Lions tactics and their ref management. Firstly it was very clear early on that Pollock hasnt a clue how to ref the breakdown and he penalised the Lions all night for perfectly legitamite turnovers. Against such a ref you just have to accept that they are clueless and not compete at the breakdown unfortunatly.

Also Gatlands crash ball tactic just doesnt work. The Lions have plenty of very good skillfull backs that can play rugby. Maybe its time to take the game to the Aussies and show them what the Lions have got rather than being so predictable and conservative.

I was also disapointed with Philips he was very lazy in defense in particular when for Gregan's try. Any man selected for the Lions should be busting their gut to get back and make the tackle. Philips looked like he was out for a stroll in the park.

by RubyGuby Mon 24 Jun 2013, 9:40 am

tatterd wrote:don't know if anyone's mentioned the 10 point swing at the start of the game. If the lions knock on after the pen was given - they take the kick and go 3 nil up. Instead they carry on playing, advantage is called over (which for a pen advantage it most sincerely was not), 5 seconds later Aus get a pen, tap and go - and its 0-7.

I was thinking about that myself - I think people are being harshly critical on the Lions in the posts and Gatland won't make too many changes if any. Phillips had to absorb so much contact and I don't think he received the support he needed from the back row. Aus knew he was a dangerman but he didn't get turned over when shackled by 3 forwards every time hehad the ball. His options were limited and I think Sexton needs to stand a little deeper. I take the same opinion as BOD after the game where he thought the Lions were better than a 2 point lead before those kicks. All round we missed an opportunity to put Aus to bed but I believe that was the best opportunity Aus had to win a Test. No problem giving Youngs an opportunity for Phillips but beyond Bowe for Maitland on the bench I don't see Gatland making any other changes. I was concerned about the loss of power and control in the scrums when the changes were made but other than that I belive it's ours to lose now.

by Guest Mon 24 Jun 2013, 9:42 am

He looked in pain to me Guns, like he was pulling up. Still think he should be dropped though.

by GunsGerms Mon 24 Jun 2013, 9:45 am

Griff wrote:He looked in pain to me Guns, like he was pulling up. Still think he should be dropped though.

That might explain it alright. To be honest I most disapointed because I thought this series was all set up for a guy like Philips to really make a mark. I thought he was going to be the Lions star man. For that to be the case you need to be giving 150% not 50%. Like you say though he may have been injured.

Good to see Cuthbert have a better game.

by nathan Mon 24 Jun 2013, 9:46 am

RubyGuby wrote:
tatterd wrote:don't know if anyone's mentioned the 10 point swing at the start of the game. If the lions knock on after the pen was given - they take the kick and go 3 nil up. Instead they carry on playing, advantage is called over (which for a pen advantage it most sincerely was not), 5 seconds later Aus get a pen, tap and go - and its 0-7.

I was thinking about that myself - I think people are being harshly critical on the Lions in the posts and Gatland won't make too many changes if any. Phillips had to absorb so much contact and I don't think he received the support he needed from the back row. Aus knew he was a dangerman but he didn't get turned over when shackled by 3 forwards every time hehad the ball. His options were limited and I think Sexton needs to stand a little deeper. I take the same opinion as BOD after the game where he thought the Lions were better than a 2 point lead before those kicks. All round we missed an opportunity to put Aus to bed but I believe that was the best opportunity Aus had to win a Test. No problem giving Youngs an opportunity for Phillips but beyond Bowe for Maitland on the bench I don't see Gatland making any other changes. I was concerned about the loss of power and control in the scrums when the changes were made but other than that I belive it's ours to lose now.

that was phillips choice though to take the contact though, there were times he just needed to do the basics and get the ball out as quickly as possible.

by nathan Mon 24 Jun 2013, 9:50 am

GunsGerms wrote:Was quite disapointed with two things in this game: The Lions tactics and their ref management. Firstly it was very clear early on that Pollock hasnt a clue how to ref the breakdown and he penalised the Lions all night for perfectly legitamite turnovers. Against such a ref you just have to accept that they are clueless and not compete at the breakdown unfortunatly.

Also Gatlands crash ball tactic just doesnt work. The Lions have plenty of very good skillfull backs that can play rugby. Maybe its time to take the game to the Aussies and show them what the Lions have got rather than being so predictable and conservative.

I was also disapointed with Philips he was very lazy in defense in particular when for Gregan's try. Any man selected for the Lions should be busting their gut to get back and make the tackle. Philips looked like he was out for a stroll in the park.

Going back to when England beat the aussies last, the whole game plan was built around tempo and moving the ball with the backs. I don't think we'll win if we try to bash it up the middle. One thing though is that the breakdown should favour us this week as it's a NH ref.

by RubyGuby Mon 24 Jun 2013, 9:51 am

Nathan - The Aus backs were right up on Sexton most of the time and he would have been throwing suicide passes - Sexton needs to sit deeper - Phillips had to absorb the contact, not out of choice a lot of the time but out of necessity - The back row did him no favours - Faletau is sued to working with him when this occurs but Phillips still didn't get turned over like others would have. thumbsup

by GunsGerms Mon 24 Jun 2013, 9:54 am

nathan wrote:
Going back to when England beat the aussies last, the whole game plan was built around tempo and moving the ball with the backs. I don't think we'll win if we try to bash it up the middle. One thing though is that the breakdown should favour us this week as it's a NH ref.

Quite right. The Aussies were there for the taking even before they had to play forwards in the backs. However, even after all the injuries the Lions still couldnt put them away. Very poor tactically. I was sure that Gatland had some clever backs moves or something saved up for this game. Very surprised how 1d the tactics were.

by nathan Mon 24 Jun 2013, 9:56 am

RubyGuby wrote:Nathan - The Aus backs were right up on Sexton most of the time and he would have been throwing suicide passes - Sexton needs to sit deeper - Phillips had to absorb the contact, not out of choice a lot of the time but out of necessity - The back row did him no favours - Faletau is sued to working with him when this occurs but Phillips still didn't get turned over like others would have.

i thought there were complaints that sexton was standing too deep? I think Phillips would of had the time to get it out quickly (god that doesnt sound right lol) but he seemed to fumble around alot - could of been the forwards not doing there job correctly mind you. He was also pretty slow at getting to a fair few rucks.

by GunsGerms Mon 24 Jun 2013, 9:56 am

RubyGuby wrote:Nathan - The Aus backs were right up on Sexton most of the time and he would have been throwing suicide passes - Sexton needs to sit deeper - Phillips had to absorb the contact, not out of choice a lot of the time but out of necessity - The back row did him no favours - Faletau is sued to working with him when this occurs but Phillips still didn't get turned over like others would have.

Thats another thing the ref missed. The Aussie defensive line was constantly offside. Was very frustrating. Its no surprise that Sexton sucessfully executed a few dinks over the top.

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