Nadal 0 Darcis 3 - Initial Thoughts

by Henman Bill Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:14 pm

First to Rafa fans: Well done for braving the forum first of all. Your man is a great champion and will be back as he always is, history will remember the 2008 final more than this match which will be merely a footnote, and champions are made by titles and head to head battles with fellow top players. History is kind to these sorts of results. Many of the greats in tennis history suffered shock defeats.

After joining the match in the second set tiebreaker (so saw less than half of it):

Nadal – did not look himself at all. Physically, he was sometimes clearly pulling up. Some very strange shots, like drop slices into the net, hitting the ball far too short. I assume it’s a physical issue/injury. If not, something mental (personal issue). In some ways I think it’s both. Rafa seems to lose belief and confidence in his game when he isn’t close to 100% physically, despite being the fighter that he is. Nadal has never lost in straight sets at Wimbledon, has he? Never lost in the first round at any slam? If Rafa was himself, this would never have happened, he was so poor. I would be curious to see Lydian’s thoughts on his movement.

Darcis – Well done to him. I will congratulate him but…I think both professional (BBC) and amateur (this forum) pundits have overcalled the performance. He played better than average for him for sure but to me took advantage of a good situation in his favour in terms of Rafa’s poor performance. He seemed to hit some shots way long, wait for Rafa errors etc. Served well certainly. I could see him losing in R2, R3 or R4 at most. He has a winnable match in R2 (Kubot) where I might make him favourite on this performance, but second favourite in all other matches after that.

Compared to Rosol match – somehow, this feels less shocking to me. When Rafa went on court against Rosol, we could say he had reached the final of every Wimbledon he had entered since losing early in 2005 (his first try at Wimbledon) and also that he had reached at least the quarter final in every slam since losing to Soderling in 2009 FO R4, and that the last time he lost before R4 had been in 2005. This time, we can say it was just similar to last year. Also, last year was much more dramatic and exciting with the 5^th set under the roof, the tension. Here, in a straight setter with much more than a hint of an injury (I didn’t think he did have one against Rosol, not at the time anyway) it wasn’t the same. Also, Rosol in the 5^th set played so well compared to Darcis, a whole other level. Rosol’s performance was legend, Darcis’s just merely surprising. Also, when I saw the Soderling result I literally ask myself if I had imagined it, Rafa seemed impregnable then, now, with injury worries well documented, this was always a possibility. Only the 3^rd most surprising loss of his career.

Rafa shock defeats – that’s arguably the 3 most shocking defeats in tennis since Bastl-Sampras 2001 – all happening to the same player. Murray, Djokovic and especially Federer just don’t have equivalent results. Why?

I suppose it could be any or all of:

1-    his health/physical issues/injuries

2-    his passive play which exposes himself to players in the zone or playing aggressively and gambling

3-    the fact that he starts slowly at times, both in matches and tournaments, expecting to gear up to form later.

4-    coincidence.

5-    such a great player, that big results against him are just so much more interesting even compared to Murray or maybe even Djokovic (at least pre 2011 version)

Some footnotes:

a)    Shame we won’t see the Federer-Nadal QF, although it didn’t seem right to be a QF so have mixed feelings about that, would prefer one more FINAL at Wimbledon one day (although even in some ways would be good to just finish their rivalry here as it ended in 2008. It can’t get any better than that).

b)   Nadal loses a little momentum in the slam total battle with Roger and others.

c)    Federer now a more realistic title contender, looked a really big ask before this.

d)    Lot of talk about Nadal for year end 1 on here a while back. I said at the time I didn’t believe it and I think others may have to join me now in that he is in a battle for year end no 2 with Murray, especially if Djokovic walks off with this title. Nadal should reach a high ranking position after the AO anyway, not the year end, since he didn’t play it this year.

e)    The issue of Rafa being seeded #5 is no longer an issue now. The lopsided draw is no longer top heavy. If anything you could argue it’s work out quite fairly to have Djokovic the top seed in the easier half.

Finally
Wish him well. Hope Rafa is back for the US hard court season, and not a long term absence.

by _homogenised_ Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:19 pm

Let's jut say that all the talk of him maybe being the greatest ever player are well and truly buried. He entered the tournament, and that's that/. Please please stop it with the knee rubbish. It's embarrassing. Also, the reason the h2h is so bad for Federer is because whenever Nadal is not even near his best, he can't reach him to play him!

by Josiah Maiestas Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:21 pm

Grass is not a real surface at all. It should be stripped from the echelons of tennis and the ATP needs to take affirmative action to protect Nadal immediately

by banbrotam Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:24 pm

A+ article and then we get E- replies Rolling Eyes

by CaledonianCraig Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:28 pm

Superb and very fair post Henman Bill. clap

I wouldn't say it was as surprising as Rosol either as there was that nagging knee worry now in people's minds (perhaps in his as well going by his pre-tournament BBC interview).

First up congratulations to Steve Darcis he remained calm and focussed throughout and managed to hang in there in a number of rallies with some great shots unbecoming of one of such a low ranking. He deserves immense credit for his standard of play.

For Rafa well what now? It was clear to me his movement wasn't what I expect of him. He lacked spring in his service action, was slow getting to balls that he used to have no problems with, he missed some curious drop volleys netting them from the service line with his opponent nowhere with his knee bends looking awkward. If that wasn't caused by that knee injury then I'd be very surprised as Rafa has long been renowned for his court coverage, returns and retrieval skills and ability to reach balls nobody else could get - that just wasn't there today.

Now where Rafa goes from here I have no idea. It is similar in ways to Murray and clay. Last year Murray had a back injury during the clay season and it flared up on the surface again this year - obviously the way he moves/plays on that surface wreaks havoc with his back and that could be the same sort of problem with Rafa on grass. Now it may be that hard court isn't so bad as grass for Rafa - for his sake I hope that is the case.

Commiserations to Rafa and congratulations to Darcis for the biggest win of his career.

by break_in_the_fifth Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:29 pm

I guess it hasn't really sunk in. Darcis indeed didn't have to play as well as Rosol did last year and didn't play the same game to beat Nadal. It feels like he just won but didn't have to be spectacular. To be honest I don't watch Nadal that much but I think something was probably up with his movement. At times though, he did make it to a lot of balls that would have been winners against a lot of other players. He hit a pretty sweet running backhand pass somewhere in the 3rd set.

Though I don't rule out the possibility that he's injured again as it probably flairs up at times a bit like Fed's back, maybe he just got caught cold on a change of surface. In 2006 he was 2 sets to love down against Kendrick. Perhaps some of that tenacity to fight back that was once there has left him.

by banbrotam Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:33 pm

break_in_the_fifth wrote:I guess it hasn't really sunk in. Darcis indeed didn't have to play as well as Rosol did last year and didn't play the same game to beat Nadal. It feels like he just won but didn't have to be spectacular. To be honest I don't watch Nadal that much but I think something was probably up with his movement. At times though, he did make it to a lot of balls that would have been winners against a lot of other players. He hit a pretty sweet running backhand pass somewhere in the 3rd set.

Though I don't rule out the possibility that he's injured again as it probably flairs up at times a bit like Fed's back, maybe he just got caught cold on a change of surface. In 2006 he was 2 sets to love down against Kendrick. Perhaps some of that tenacity to fight back that was once there has left him.

No. Don't be so harsh - he was clearly injured and kept going to the last point, in fairness to him

by break_in_the_fifth Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:37 pm

harsh?

by **laverfan** Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:37 pm

@HB...

by invisiblecoolers Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:38 pm

Initial thoughts

1]Nadal not at his best mentally [physically yes]

2]Darcis played a smart game and earned a well deserved win.

by Duty281 Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:39 pm

Fantastic article HB, quite enjoyed that. thumbsup

by kingraf Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:39 pm

I think its the lack of fizz the match had that irritates me.

by banbrotam Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:40 pm

break_in_the_fifth wrote:harsh?

Your last sentence. For me his fight is the same as it's always been. I know you're just looking for reasons given the stunned loss - but believe me as a neutral Rafa is still a fighter

by Guest Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:41 pm

I don't like the assumption of injury whenever Nadal loses. He stepped onto court and was outplayed. I think he was caught cold and was probably still trying to adjust to the change of surface.

Just confirms to me that Rafa has been a huge beneficiary of the slower W courts.

He would have struggled even more to get out of the first week if the courts played like the nineties courts.

by CaledonianCraig Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:45 pm

emancipator lets not avoid facts here.

This is the first time he has ever lost in a slam in the First Round, probably the highest ranked player he has lost against in a slam and his movement was terrible. Just because you don't want to hear it as an excuse ask yourself are those sort of stats and that poor movement the result of a 100% fit Rafa? If so then how do you explain Rafa beating Roger on the same grass surface a few years ago?

by break_in_the_fifth Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:47 pm

Fair enough, most of my post was hypothetical. Nadal doesn't have the typical grass court game though and even in his best year of 2010 he went to 5 sets twice but still came through. So it's either loss of tenacity, injury or that Darcis kept his level up for longer.

by Silver Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:49 pm

Personally, I blame bogbrush for this debacle. Let's be honest, he was there - just applied his jinx to a different player this year!

Great article though HB, and good posts by Craig and Bit5. I would prefer to highlight a nerveless performance by Darcis than dwell on Nadal, if only because I don't want to take anything away from the man during his finest hour. Though of course, questions regarding the knees will arise.

by invisiblecoolers Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:51 pm

emancipator wrote:I don't like the assumption of injury whenever Nadal loses. He stepped onto court and was outplayed. I think he was caught cold and was probably still trying to adjust to the change of surface.

Just confirms to me that Rafa has been a huge beneficiary of the slower W courts.

He would have struggled even more to get out of the first week if the courts played like the nineties courts.

Perfectly summed up.

@CC, Emanci's comment is the fact, Nadal was caught cold thats it, its nothing to blame his Knees, best Nadal is mentally fit than physically, this Nadal is not mentally strong enough like how he used to be but physically more or less the same.

by CaledonianCraig Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:53 pm

Of course Darcis was immense and that will probably be lost in all the drama of such a Nadal loss which is a shame. The reason why that will happen is because Nadal is a two time Wimbledon winner and one of the favourites for this year's title whereas, in harsh reality, Darcis could very well bomb out (like Rosol) in the next round or if not he won't get through to the second week I don't think.

by Guest Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:54 pm

Craig, anyone can get caught cold and it can happen at anytime. Just because it hasn't happened before doesn't mean it can't happen now.

I don't know if he was 100% fit or not. I expect most players have some kind of niggle when they step on court. My gripe is with the assumption of DEBILITATING injury. Poor movement could be explained by rustiness, having not adapted to a new surface. Why is the assumption always that he is badly injured? Besides he didn't take an MTO - something he's always done in the past.

The problem with assuming that injury is the cause of defeat is that people then incorrectly assume that he would have won if 100% fit.

Anyway I'm sick of all this injury talk. If you're fit enough to play then there should be no excuses (from fans, media etc Banbro Wink

).

The better player on the day won. Congratulations to him.

I for one will not pretend to be sad for Rafa. Never liked his game and i am quite frankly delighted that he lost.

ghost

emancipator

by CaledonianCraig Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:55 pm

invisiblecoolers wrote:
emancipator wrote:I don't like the assumption of injury whenever Nadal loses. He stepped onto court and was outplayed. I think he was caught cold and was probably still trying to adjust to the change of surface.

Just confirms to me that Rafa has been a huge beneficiary of the slower W courts.

He would have struggled even more to get out of the first week if the courts played like the nineties courts.

Perfectly summed up.

@CC, Emanci's comment is the fact, Nadal was caught cold thats it, its nothing to blame his Knees, best Nadal is mentally fit than physically, this Nadal is not mentally strong enough like how he used to be but physically more or less the same.

Sorry ic but watch the match and you tell me Rafa was moving swimmingly and unhindered. The truth is he wasn't. I do feel qualified as I have watched him play (albeit on television) for many years and his movement was a pale shadow of what we come to expect from him.

by _homogenised_ Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:55 pm

invisiblecoolers wrote:
emancipator wrote:I don't like the assumption of injury whenever Nadal loses. He stepped onto court and was outplayed. I think he was caught cold and was probably still trying to adjust to the change of surface.

Just confirms to me that Rafa has been a huge beneficiary of the slower W courts.

He would have struggled even more to get out of the first week if the courts played like the nineties courts.

Perfectly summed up.

@CC, Emanci's comment is the fact, Nadal was caught cold thats it, its nothing to blame his Knees, best Nadal is mentally fit than physically, this Nadal is not mentally strong enough like how he used to be but physically more or less the same.

Exactly. He is lucky that he has todays courts tailor made for his game style, really. But every so often he will meet a hard hitter, or be a bit cold and then he is out. When he loses a pace or two with age, he is in REAL trouble. He has no weapon as a B plan... he is essentially a retriever (a super one, granted), but once he cannot rely on his body to retrieve everything from all corners, he is dead in the water.

by CaledonianCraig Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:00 pm

I do see what you are saying emancipator but come on I am not new to tennis forums. I have been around when injury/illness excuses have been cited for Federer losses so lets not kid ourselves there.

I agree that if you go on court you are fit enough and have to accept any defeat but if there is an underlying reason ie injury then it has to be considered whether it is pleasant or not.

You are entitled to be delighted he lost that is your perrogative but is kind of sad that you take such pleasure at the sight of a pale shadow of a twelve time slam winner exiting in these circumstances.

by carrieg4 Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:02 pm

Initial thoughts - that's my tournament predictions bu%%ered!

Second thoughts - hope he is back to full capacity soon and commiserations to Haddie, Lydian et al. on 606v2 Hug

Final thoughts - Darcis appears to have played one heck of a match (didn't see as was at work).

by Danny_1982 Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:02 pm

Great article HB, summed up it perfectly and fairly.

Last year when Rafa lost to Rosol I could see no issues with his movement. He was just outhit by an inspired opponent. Today it was clear there was a problem. Rafa has tremendous movement but today was sluggish and poorly balanced.

Clearly injured for me.

by Jeremy_Kyle Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:05 pm

If Nadal had lost in one of the first two rounds at the RG, when he was outplayed by lower rank players in the first set, people would say that he lost because he was injured just like are saying now, That's pathetic and grossly unfair to Darcys. It shows,furthermore, lack of understanding what is involved in competitive sport and what is required to endure this kind of physical performnce. But hey, do you need to be an athlete to write on a forum?

by CAS Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:07 pm

personally I think his knee suffered with the lower bounce, he has had to do movements he has hardly done in 2 years and I think it brought pain to his knee. I don't think its an injury exactly but he has some pain going on there, no doubt that affected him.

by Guest Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:11 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:I do see what you are saying emancipator but come on I am not new to tennis forums. I have been around when injury/illness excuses have been cited for Federer losses so lets not kid ourselves there.

I agree that if you go on court you are fit enough and have to accept any defeat but if there is an underlying reason ie injury then it has to be considered whether it is pleasant or not.

You are entitled to be delighted he lost that is your perrogative but is kind of sad that you take such pleasure at the sight of a pale shadow of a twelve time slam winner exiting in these circumstances.

Why is it sad? We all have our favourites and the ones we don't like. It's the nature of fandom in sports. I've never enjoyed his game or the liberties he takes with the rules. Why should I pretend to be upset now that he's lost. Are you telling me you've never felt pleasure or happiness when some sportsman or other that you don't like has lost? I'd imgaine you would've been delighted if Ronnie O'sullivan had lost at this year's world chanmpionship. Stop being so self-righteous. They play sport to earn millions of pounds and for our viewing pleasure. Winning and losing is part of the territory.

by ChequeredJersey Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:12 pm

He didn't lose because he was injured. But to ignore it as a factor in the match is silly. Saying Nadal struggled with his knee-pain isn't saying that Darcis didn't play well or didn't deserve to win. It is significant though, because it means we speculate about Nadal's future, especially on grass and especially over the next few months leading to the US Open.

by Guest Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:14 pm

Besides it's not like I'm on the forum gloating. I'm giving my honest opinions which I'm entitled to do.

by lydian Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:15 pm

Nice article HB.

Driving home I was listening to the radio afterwards, a series of ex-pro's inc. Krajicek all said they could see Nadal wasn't moving properly at all. They saw it clearly. One said its actually the grass itself that may be the cause of the issue - for him - as he adapts to lower bounces where he's bending low all the time. Clearly he has vulnerable knees and with little time to adjust between RG and Wimb, the different stresses on the knee on grass cause the flare up. Overend was even wondering if Nadal will ever come back to Wimbledon again if this is thought to be the case.

Look, we know Darcis played well but he was no Rosol today. Darcis does not beat Nadal on any surface. Nadal was clearly hampered in his movement by something, we dont know but its likely the knees. He wont say because he never does in media interviews afterwards on the day. He was repeatedly asked in the interviews but wouldnt be drawn, although you could read between the lines by what he didnt say. It's clear to anyone who's watched him long enough to see his movement was poor, it affected his BH particularly where he has to load on his left knee before the right foot comes over. We know he had no pre-event before Wimb, they reckon he maybe overtrained last week since arriving to acclimatise quickly, I.e. strained his knees in practice with low balls. Nadal has said before he likes to literally stand tall on clay, it's not that he's incapable of playing on low surfaces because he's won Queen's with its 90s grass and Dubai on hard. He has conventional grasscourt grips so has the technical capability. He has the weapons too...but not the knees it seems. I don't know where he goes from here, his mental confidence in his knees is going to be shot if its really flared up again.

He doesn't want to just be a claycourter so maybe it'll have to be goodnight Vienna. That'll have the bunting and jelly out in some quarters on here for sure.

by _homogenised_ Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:17 pm

emancipator wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:I do see what you are saying emancipator but come on I am not new to tennis forums. I have been around when injury/illness excuses have been cited for Federer losses so lets not kid ourselves there.

I agree that if you go on court you are fit enough and have to accept any defeat but if there is an underlying reason ie injury then it has to be considered whether it is pleasant or not.

You are entitled to be delighted he lost that is your perrogative but is kind of sad that you take such pleasure at the sight of a pale shadow of a twelve time slam winner exiting in these circumstances.

Why is it sad? We all have our favourites and the ones we don't like. It's the nature of fandom in sports. I've never enjoyed his game or the liberties he takes with the rules. Why should I pretend to be upset now that he's lost. Are you telling me you've never felt pleasure or happiness when some sportsman or other that you don't like has lost? I'd imgaine you would've been delighted if Ronnie O'sullivan had lost at this year's world chanmpionship. Stop being so self-righteous. They play sport to earn millions of pounds and for our viewing pleasure. Winning and losing is part of the territory.

Craig, you make it sound like it is irrational to dislike the guy? Its his on court conduct, and disrespect in interviews to opponents, along with his 1 dimensional game that make people dislike him. Everybody has the right to dislike or even hate someone. All I seem to see round here is people telling others what to think. You can jump up and down until your head flies off like a spinning top, but Nadal's exit today has made an awful lot of people ecstatic, myself among them. I dislike the man intensely, and he has only himself to blame for that. His fans make it no easier throwing h2h in people's faces and the knee excuse at every turn.

It is testament to just how annoying Nadal is that all anyone can talk about now is his flaming phantom knees. Oh, and, I advise Nadal fans not to start the h2h debate again, because there will be two 1-0 1-0 now.

by Guest Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:17 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:He didn't lose because he was injured. But to ignore it as a factor in the match is silly. Saying Nadal struggled with his knee-pain isn't saying that Darcis didn't play well or didn't deserve to win. It is significant though, because it means we speculate about Nadal's future, especially on grass and especially over the next few months leading to the US Open.

Except you're making the assumption that he was injured and that said injury was pat of the reason why he lost - we don't know if this is the case. We certainly don't know how much any supposed pain in his knee (another assumption) affected his performance. He could of just had a bad day at the office, moved a bit sluggishly because of the new surface, and come up against an inspired opponent, and therefore lost.

by CaledonianCraig Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:20 pm

As I said it is your perogative and don't worry I already knew how much you hate Nadal. However, I'd like to think posters can show a little bit of decorum and dignity instead of wetting themselves with excitement at his defeats disregarding how you are adding pain to decent Rafa fans who are already hurting enough tonight. I am a Murray fan and a Rafa defeat boosts Andy's chances of glory at Wimbledon but I take no pleasure from seeing an all-time great of the sport losing in such circumstances. Lets just leave it at that.

by ChequeredJersey Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:20 pm

emancipator wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:He didn't lose because he was injured. But to ignore it as a factor in the match is silly. Saying Nadal struggled with his knee-pain isn't saying that Darcis didn't play well or didn't deserve to win. It is significant though, because it means we speculate about Nadal's future, especially on grass and especially over the next few months leading to the US Open.

Except you're making the assumption that he was injured and that said injury was pat of the reason why he lost - we don't know if this is the case. We certainly don't know how much any supposed pain in his knee (another assumption) affected his performance. He could of just had a bad day at the office, moved a bit sluggishly because of the new surface, and come up against an inspired opponent, and therefore lost.

Given his recent history, I think it's a reasonable assumption, at least enough to worry about Nadal's immediate future and future at Wimbledon!

by Guest Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:22 pm

Thoughts.

I think if anything this could be a sign of a little burnout. His comeback has exceeded expectations, but again it boils down to poor preparation. We talk about courts being homogenised, but there is so much difference in surfaces that many take for granted. Nadal could not slide like he does on Clay and it seemed the Grass was giving him nothing. Yes it was a bad day at the office and maybe just maybe he was not 100%, however the practice courts would've given him indication how his body would hold up.

Darcis played the perfect match. Mixed up his play and played a real good length and offered nothing short for Nadal to attack. The first 2 sets Nadal seemed ok physically and found it hard to impose his game on Darcis. Nadal's head and body went in the 3rd.

It wasn't a match of short points and Darcis pulled Nadal all round the court. A top performance indeed.

by JubbaIsle Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:23 pm

Well said CC thumbsup

I watched most of the match on my phone at work....shhh keep it to yourselves !!

From the very first point, Nadal was not together, at first I thought it was nerves, but he didnt look too flustered, then I noticed he wasn't hitting the ball sweetly and was standing just behind the baseline to receive, something he did in the FO, but has not done before. He usually stands 6 feet beyond that line.

I said in a previous post that his upper body mass has shrunk a bit and this may present him with a problem on grass, he can't hit through the court as he used to. Combine that with loss of agility and we get the result we had, a 3 set defeat.

During the 3rd set, he was not running down some balls and his movement was restricted, imo that means a knee problem, might not be an injury, but if its sore, he is not going to ruin his career getting back into contention on one slam. He will take it easy if he can, maybe a reason why he ducked out of Halle.

All in all, I'm not taking this defeat seriously, he needs to recuperate properly to try and maintain some sort of build up to getting back to his former levels. If that means losing in the first round of Wimbledon, then so be it.

Kudos to the man for taking part and not retiring and take away Darci's thunder.

by Guest Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:24 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:
emancipator wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:He didn't lose because he was injured. But to ignore it as a factor in the match is silly. Saying Nadal struggled with his knee-pain isn't saying that Darcis didn't play well or didn't deserve to win. It is significant though, because it means we speculate about Nadal's future, especially on grass and especially over the next few months leading to the US Open.

Except you're making the assumption that he was injured and that said injury was pat of the reason why he lost - we don't know if this is the case. We certainly don't know how much any supposed pain in his knee (another assumption) affected his performance. He could of just had a bad day at the office, moved a bit sluggishly because of the new surface, and come up against an inspired opponent, and therefore lost.

Given his recent history, I think it's a reasonable assumption, at least enough to worry about Nadal's immediate future and future at Wimbledon!

You mean his recent 43-2, including record 8th RG title? Wink

by ChequeredJersey Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:25 pm

emancipator wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:
emancipator wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:He didn't lose because he was injured. But to ignore it as a factor in the match is silly. Saying Nadal struggled with his knee-pain isn't saying that Darcis didn't play well or didn't deserve to win. It is significant though, because it means we speculate about Nadal's future, especially on grass and especially over the next few months leading to the US Open.

Except you're making the assumption that he was injured and that said injury was pat of the reason why he lost - we don't know if this is the case. We certainly don't know how much any supposed pain in his knee (another assumption) affected his performance. He could of just had a bad day at the office, moved a bit sluggishly because of the new surface, and come up against an inspired opponent, and therefore lost.

Given his recent history, I think it's a reasonable assumption, at least enough to worry about Nadal's immediate future and future at Wimbledon!

You mean his recent 43-2, including record 8th RG title?

Touche

by Guest Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:27 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:
emancipator wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:
emancipator wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:He didn't lose because he was injured. But to ignore it as a factor in the match is silly. Saying Nadal struggled with his knee-pain isn't saying that Darcis didn't play well or didn't deserve to win. It is significant though, because it means we speculate about Nadal's future, especially on grass and especially over the next few months leading to the US Open.

Except you're making the assumption that he was injured and that said injury was pat of the reason why he lost - we don't know if this is the case. We certainly don't know how much any supposed pain in his knee (another assumption) affected his performance. He could of just had a bad day at the office, moved a bit sluggishly because of the new surface, and come up against an inspired opponent, and therefore lost.

Given his recent history, I think it's a reasonable assumption, at least enough to worry about Nadal's immediate future and future at Wimbledon!

You mean his recent 43-2, including record 8th RG title?

Touche

by CaledonianCraig Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:28 pm

lydian wrote:Nice article HB.

Driving home I was listening to the radio afterwards, a series of ex-pro's inc. Krajicek all said they could see Nadal wasn't moving properly at all. They saw it clearly. One said its actually the grass itself that may be the cause of the issue - for him - as he adapts to lower bounces where he's bending low all the time. Clearly he has vulnerable knees and with little time to adjust between RG and Wimb, the different stresses on the knee on grass cause the flare up. Overend was even wondering if Nadal will ever come back to Wimbledon again if this is thought to be the case.

Look, we know Darcis played well but he was no Rosol today. Darcis does not beat Nadal on any surface. Nadal was clearly hampered in his movement by something, we dont know but its likely the knees. He wont say because he never does in media interviews afterwards on the day. He was repeatedly asked in the interviews but wouldnt be drawn, although you could read between the lines by what he didnt say. It's clear to anyone who's watched him long enough to see his movement was poor, it affected his BH particularly where he has to load on his left knee before the right foot comes over. We know he had no pre-event before Wimb, they reckon he maybe overtrained last week since arriving to acclimatise quickly, I.e. strained his knees in practice with low balls. Nadal has said before he likes to literally stand tall on clay, it's not that he's incapable of playing on low surfaces because he's won Queen's with its 90s grass and Dubai on hard. He has conventional grasscourt grips so has the technical capability. He has the weapons too...but not the knees it seems. I don't know where he goes from here, his mental confidence in his knees is going to be shot if its really flared up again.

He doesn't want to just be a claycourter so maybe it'll have to be goodnight Vienna. That'll have the bunting and jelly out in some quarters on here for sure.

Exactly how I saw it. I have watched Rafa for years and his reputation is for his supreme court coverage, speed, returning and retrieval ability which has been second to none and that just wasn't there today. If you saw his pre-tournament interview at around 11.45 am this morning it told me he wasn't confident about the knee saying something like he 'hoped the knee would be alright'. When a player renowned for movement, speed, returning is reduced to sluggish movement then you get what you got today. Full credit to Darcis as he did a great job to stay focussed and played the right shots at the right time but for Rafa I shuddered to think where his mind is now regarding that knee and what the future holds if the injury has flared up on his first competitive match on grass.

by invisiblecoolers Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:59 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:
invisiblecoolers wrote:
emancipator wrote:I don't like the assumption of injury whenever Nadal loses. He stepped onto court and was outplayed. I think he was caught cold and was probably still trying to adjust to the change of surface.

Just confirms to me that Rafa has been a huge beneficiary of the slower W courts.

He would have struggled even more to get out of the first week if the courts played like the nineties courts.

Perfectly summed up.

@CC, Emanci's comment is the fact, Nadal was caught cold thats it, its nothing to blame his Knees, best Nadal is mentally fit than physically, this Nadal is not mentally strong enough like how he used to be but physically more or less the same.

Sorry ic but watch the match and you tell me Rafa was moving swimmingly and unhindered. The truth is he wasn't. I do feel qualified as I have watched him play (albeit on television) for many years and his movement was a pale shadow of what we come to expect from him.

I clearly said Rafa was caught cold, I never said Rafa was moving great or bad, its just you don't wanna accept the blind reality that the opponent was better and he caught Rafa cold, Rafa not playing pre warm tournament was his fault and I see that as the reason for him not playing his best, its nothing to do with injury and nonsense.

by Henman Bill Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:00 pm

For those that missed it, channel 301 (Freeview, UK) states "Game of the Day Highlights" coming up and says it will be the Rafa match.

by JubbaIsle Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:05 pm

Lets not forget, that his layoff to get his knee back into contention may have had to take longer than the planned layoff, the fact that he had to make some sort of comeback on clay by starting the season in South America and culminating at Roland Garros may not have been the ideal period for a complete recuperation.

That gruelling FO event, esp the semi final with Djoko may just about have signaled a reversal of the healing process. Wimbledon was one slam too close and too far.

by CaledonianCraig Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:06 pm

Perhaps he was caught cold as well but I noticed his poor movement by his high standards. I have said elsewhere how great Darcis played but if you are seriously suggesting that Darcis winning had more to do with supreme Darcis talent than Nadal's laboured movement then can I ask you why Steve is ranked 135 and this is the lowest ranked player Rafa has lost against in ANY tournament since 2006.

by lydian Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:07 pm

IC, with respect you don't know it's not due to injury when his movement was really poor and loads of ex-pros commented likewise. I take their judgement on something like over any poster on here. No matter how cold Rafa is he's a great mover on any surface but today his movement was not good at all. Now of course he's hardly played any grass court matches since 2011 in reality but I never see him losing in straights to a guy like Darcis even if Steve plays his own lights out tennis.

by Henman Bill Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:10 pm

lydian wrote:Nice article HB.

Driving home I was listening to the radio afterwards, a series of ex-pro's inc. Krajicek all said they could see Nadal wasn't moving properly at all. They saw it clearly. One said its actually the grass itself that may be the cause of the issue - for him - as he adapts to lower bounces where he's bending low all the time. Clearly he has vulnerable knees and with little time to adjust between RG and Wimb, the different stresses on the knee on grass cause the flare up. Overend was even wondering if Nadal will ever come back to Wimbledon again if this is thought to be the case.

Look, we know Darcis played well but he was no Rosol today. Darcis does not beat Nadal on any surface. Nadal was clearly hampered in his movement by something, we dont know but its likely the knees. He wont say because he never does in media interviews afterwards on the day. He was repeatedly asked in the interviews but wouldnt be drawn, although you could read between the lines by what he didnt say. It's clear to anyone who's watched him long enough to see his movement was poor, it affected his BH particularly where he has to load on his left knee before the right foot comes over. We know he had no pre-event before Wimb, they reckon he maybe overtrained last week since arriving to acclimatise quickly, I.e. strained his knees in practice with low balls. Nadal has said before he likes to literally stand tall on clay, it's not that he's incapable of playing on low surfaces because he's won Queen's with its 90s grass and Dubai on hard. He has conventional grasscourt grips so has the technical capability. He has the weapons too...but not the knees it seems. I don't know where he goes from here, his mental confidence in his knees is going to be shot if its really flared up again.

He doesn't want to just be a claycourter so maybe it'll have to be goodnight Vienna. That'll have the bunting and jelly out in some quarters on here for sure.

Yes, very interesting point about low bounces. There were some bits and pieces of poor movement in the Rosol match last year, although not to the extent of today, he was like 2 steps slow sometimes, not half a step.

I do think it's probably the knee (80-90% sure) but I don't think we can absolutely certain.

EDIT: Actually I have just seen a clip of a Rafa interview and I want to change that to about 95%.

Also, I think talk of retiring now is probably premature. He did win his last hard court tournament after all against full field. But how about a schedule like this for Rafa.

Australian Open
Acapulco
Indian Wells
Monte Carlo
Madrid or Barcelona (not both)
Rome
French Open
Queens/Halle (I think the season is extending so he will still get a rest week after FO)
Wimbledon
Toronto
US Open
Shanghai
World Tour Finals

Optional extras:
Maybe enter one more clay tournament in South America if he loses early in Australia
Maybe play Miami if he loses early at Indian Wells

by CaledonianCraig Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:13 pm

lydian wrote:IC, with respect you don't know it's not due to injury when his movement was really poor and loads of ex-pros commented likewise. I take their judgement on something like over any poster on here. No matter how cold Rafa is he's a great mover on any surface but today his movement was not good at all. Now of course he's hardly played any grass court matches since 2011 in reality but I never see him losing in straights to a guy like Darcis even if Steve plays his own lights out tennis.

Exactly lydian. The areas I noticed poor movement was in second service action - there was no spring whatsoever, he was slower changing direction and slower getting to balls, there was even balls he would normally have reached that he never even moved for and also he looked awkward when approaching the net to play drop volleys which he tamely netted without great knee bend with Darcis way behind the baseline. Sorry those are not things you normally associate with Rafa and how people refuse to admit that is beyond me.

by Henman Bill Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:15 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zugpfIASTlk

Very fair comments from Rafa "I don't want to talk about my knee today".

Read between the lines. "My knee was very bad. I don't want to talk about that today, so we'll talk about it more later so as not to take credit away from my opponent too much."

Very fair comment, much better than with Rosol where he came out with injured months later. Look at the you tube clip above, it's pretty clear.

by lydian Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:18 pm

Interesting schedule HB, I see something similar. Yes they did say the extra week from next year between RG and Wimb may help.

Depending on how the knee is I wonder if he'll enter any events on clay in July, e.g. Hamburg 500, just to get match practice if nothing else. Also, I presume he's more than likely to be #5 for USO now.

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