Nadal 0 Darcis 3 - Initial Thoughts

laverfan wrote:

As iC (The Invincibles/Invisibles) says, a win is much more worth celebrating then a loss.

laverfan wrote:A certain Mr. Borg, did not believe in playing Grass warm-ups and ended with 5 on the Grass. 

Thats why people still sing praise of him, inspite of it being 150,000 light years since he retired .

But I heard one more thing, while Borg boycotted the warmup events, he does come to Wimbledon a week or two early and practice sterling hard on Wimbledon grass, he had a technique and formula on his own for the success and it worked great, its not like after FO, he will take 2 weeks off and suddenly play grass court, had he done that some body might have done a Bastl or Darcis to him as well.

Well, I came on to read up some Nadal fans opinions on why the knee can be so much worse after 2 weeks off than it was at the end of RG after so many weeks grinding on the clay (genuine question, no subtext).

Lydian's earlier post and the quote from Becker do give some insight to that re the lower bounce and different movement. I must say I am a bit surprised about this given enthusiasm from Nadal earlier this year for "natural surfaces" which was taken by most I think to mean grass as well as clay. There was many a long post from Red in particular about more grass tournaments etc. It just goes to show in a way that different surfaces aggravate different underlying issues, so players must manage their schedule to the tournaments that suit them (like Nadal did with the golden swing).

My own initial thoughts:
- As against Rosol last year, Nadal definitely didn't look at his best. I think there were more errors this year than that match, and poorer movement (but also noted as HB said, a lot of running round the backhand which is odd if the movement is impaired).
- But, it's fair to assume he felt he had a chance at winning the tournament (even with really painful knees) or he wouldn't have played
- I think there is also an element that Nadal has struggled in the first week even when fit enough to go on to win the title - maybe this make him more nervous?
- I wondered pre-RG if he had played far too many weeks from April - June (on top of the 3 weeks in South America). It turned out not to matter there, but maybe it is something he needs to consider.
- Although he's completed the "channel slam" twice before, maybe at 27, he's too old to go straight from one slam into another, especially when he can get himself into long matches.
- I don't see him winning either of the next 2 hard court slams, and once he turns 28, I'm not sure he will be in contention for any off clay. But you never know, you can't count him out.

FedsFan, Federer has gone from the worst possible quarter final to possibly the easiest one (assuming he gets there). I know he beat Djokovic and Murray back to back last year, but had seemed better throughout the year than he has this year - however getting to a potential semi with minimum fuss could be just the break he needed to defend his title here.

YvonneT wrote:Well, I came on to read up some Nadal fans opinions on why the knee can be so much worse after 2 weeks off than it was at the end of RG after so many weeks grinding on the clay (genuine question, no subtext).

Lydian's earlier post and the quote from Becker do give some insight to that re the lower bounce and different movement. I must say I am a bit surprised about this given enthusiasm from Nadal earlier this year for "natural surfaces" which was taken by most I think to mean grass as well as clay. There was many a long post from Red in particular about more grass tournaments etc. It just goes to show in a way that different surfaces aggravate different underlying issues, so players must manage their schedule to the tournaments that suit them (like Nadal did with the golden swing).

My own initial thoughts:
- As against Rosol last year, Nadal definitely didn't look at his best. I think there were more errors this year than that match, and poorer movement (but also noted as HB said, a lot of running round the backhand which is odd if the movement is impaired).
- But, it's fair to assume he felt he had a chance at winning the tournament (even with really painful knees) or he wouldn't have played
- I think there is also an element that Nadal has struggled in the first week even when fit enough to go on to win the title - maybe this make him more nervous?
- I wondered pre-RG if he had played far too many weeks from April - June (on top of the 3 weeks in South America). It turned out not to matter there, but maybe it is something he needs to consider.
- Although he's completed the "channel slam" twice before, maybe at 27, he's too old to go straight from one slam into another, especially when he can get himself into long matches.
- I don't see him winning either of the next 2 hard court slams, and once he turns 28, I'm not sure he will be in contention for any off clay. But you never know, you can't count him out.

Great Post bro:clap:

IC, all in all from your post match comments you seem to be extracting almost a little glee at the loss it has to be said. The collective calling of his fans as rafitos is also a derogatory term as its tantamount calling people fanboys. We get what you're repeatedly saying, Nadal deserves no sympathy. Ok, move on, his fans - er sorry, little bushy eyed naive rafitos - have.

I am relieved that Federer has lost a (very likely) extremely slippery banana skin - I think that is a perfectly okay reaction.  While the outcome I would prefer above all would have been for the two of them to meet in the QFs and for TMF to emerge victorious - I'm afraid I now quail at the prospect of a meeting (what a good job I don't make my living playing competitive sports!).  I was very relieved on (I'm sure it was) Murray's behalf, that Darcis knocked Berdych out in 1st round of OG - that is very different to wishing ill on any player.  I am sure that had Djokovic been knocked out before the semi at RG, there is many a Rafa fan who would have been feeling that the rest of the tournament would be a more relaxing ride and they should be able to express that. I wasn't posting at the time, but if a Ferrer fan (for instance) had said that they were relieved that Tsonga had knocked Fed out because they felt that Ferrer then had a greater chance of reaching the final - it wouldn't have bothered me in the slightest. 

I've been a critic of some of Nadal's on court etiquette in the past, but yesterday he was magnificent in defeat from his congratulation at the net to waiting for his opponent to leave the court with him, signing of autographs and acknowledgement of the crowd - very like Federer after his defeat to Tsonga in fact.  These two immense figures of tennis - two of the greatest champions we have seen - are probably at this stage very comfortable with what they have achieved although they both undoubtedly have the fire (bodies willing) to win more.

Personally, despite relief on TMF's and Murray's behalf, I am very sad to see a great champion struggling and to go out in the first round, but it has been a  triumphant return to the tour for Rafa and that is what we will all focus on a few weeks from now.  I also find it quite sad to think that people  may not feel able to celebrate a great victory by the underdog -(and it still was a clever game Darcis played because a third rate Nadal is still Nadal 12 times slam champion and clay king)

Lydian & Time Please, yeah there's a  difference between being not being unhappy that Rafa's out and being particularly gleeful about it.  

It's a bit odd to pretend that there was no physical condition affecting Rafa's performance. On the other hand, it's also a bit odd for anyone to suggest that the trophy is somehow "less shiny" as Rafa wasn't 100% and is no longer in the tournament. Not that I've seen anyone say that on here just yet, but let's just say I'm bracing myself for it

I said before the tournament started that whoever wins it will have deserved it and nothing changes on that front. Others may not feel the same but that is their outlook.

Henman Bill wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zugpfIASTlk

Very fair comments from Rafa "I don't want to talk about my knee today".

Read between the lines. "My knee was very bad. I don't want to talk about that today, so we'll talk about it more later so as not to take credit away from my opponent too much."

Very fair comment, much better than with Rosol where he came out with injured months later. Look at the you tube clip above, it's pretty clear.

He was v. angry when he lost to Rosol, there were periods in that match when he looked the more likely winner.  In this match although the 2nd set tie-breaker was close, he was very much the second best player across the whole match, and he's been there before.  I agree that he wasn't at his best.  I suspect that his knee has made the transition from clay to grass a bit too much for him if his clay season finishes with the full intensity of a final at RG.

Whoever wins it will have earnt it unless that person is Murray.

YvonneT wrote:Lydian & Time Please, yeah there's a  difference between being not being unhappy that Rafa's out and being particularly gleeful about it.  

It's a bit odd to pretend that there was no physical condition affecting Rafa's performance. On the other hand, it's also a bit odd for anyone to suggest that the trophy is somehow "less shiny" as Rafa wasn't 100% and is no longer in the tournament. Not that I've seen anyone say that on here just yet, but let's just say I'm bracing myself for it

I am not looking to attack Nadal fans but why is it when he loses its always an injury? Nadal himself has said it was not an injury issue. On the other hand, with every Federer loss people are ready to say he is over the hill and washed up etc. When Tsonga humbled him at RG, he lost because he played a shocker and Tsonga played a blinder. His back issue affects his serve but his appalling shot selection that day and the fact that he forgot he was playing tennis not football when he dumped his smashes into the net was evidence he had a bad day. I believe Nadal had a bad day yesterday just as he had a shaky couple of rounds at RG. Brands nearly had him at 2 sets to love there too.

If Nadal was not 95% he would not have played. Maybe he was unsteady on the grass and maybe he was thinking about the loss last year. He didn't get thumped, he went on two t/b and a 6/4 which is pretty close.
I think he may use this loss to justify missing a good chunk of the h/c season.

Sorry FedsFan but I have noted Federer fans coming out with excuses as well for losses - it may not always have been injury but excuses can alway be had. Lets not stop there as no doubt there will be Murray fans who have done this and Djokovic fans. It is not unique to Nadal fans that much I know.

It's the extent to which it's done CC that's more relevant afterall even Fed has had a couple MTOs...

Yes but do you not feel that has something to do with opportunity? I mean Roger has been so imperious and avoided such defeats but had he lost against Falla or Benneteau we would have got them. In short no fans are better than any other group of fans. We all do the same - grasp at straws to explain away defeats though sometimes they are not excuses but valid reasons.

Rafa spoke just before Wimby about how entering last year was a mistake and that he shouldn't have played it. I can't see him making the same mistake twice, having so recently acknowledged it was a mistake the first time. What would he have to gain by repeating it?

I still wonder how much was mental, how much his movement was affected by the fear of pain rather than actual pain. Once the doubts creep in, it can affect you a lot. Not to mention the lack of practice on grass.
It's not like he was hobbling around. If he'd won the set point he had in the 2nd, he probably would have gone on to win and we'd probably be saying he simply looked out of practice on grass and it would improve as the tournament wore on.

It could have been partially a mental issue but his movement certainly wasn't what I come to expect of Rafa. True he wasn't hobbling around but not all injuries make people hobble they hinder speedy movement and sudden direction change. I watched and saw him refusing to chase down shots he used to return without any great problem. Sure he chose to go out on court and perhaps was desperate to exorcise some demons in his head but it back-fired. Darcis deserves credit for the game he played as well - I couldn't fault his approach.

It would be odd though for a player to say "I played Wimbledon last year when my knees were bad - it was a big mistake" while in the back of his mind thinking "And I'm about to do it again"

Yes JHM. If I have to be critical here I would say that Rafa's team perhaps should have either insisted he try his knee in Halle or Queen's on grass. Any pain or discomfort then pull him out of Wimbledon. I'd say looking at that interview yesterday morning he had doubts in his mind.

Why get so heated if some fans of Nadal (or any player for that matter) seem reluctant to admit that their hero lost in a fair fight?

It's obvious that something was making a difference yesterday, whether a physical problem with the knee or a lack of confidence in the knee, or a lack of the necessary fine-tune conditioning for playing on grass instead of clay.  Whether the knee or something else was making the difference we won't know, although it's likely the knee played a part.

I used to get wound up by starred slam arguments and all of that, but it's an argument nobody can ever win absent a willingness to concede on one or other side (mind you it was easier to let it go after Fed won Aus Open 2010, and then in particular Wimbledon last year in the age of titans).

In a physical sport part of what the player must bring to the party along with his innate skill, win to will, tennis brain, and so on is his physical fitness.  If he can't he will lose - one can always say that his state of fitness affected his play, but it doesn't affect the score or re-write the name on the cup.  I don't see why a player's inability to get himself into the correct state to win a match is seen as somehow excusable compared to other explanations for his loss (extreme examples are exceptions - e.g. monica seles).

barrystar wrote:Why get so heated if some fans of Nadal (or any player for that matter) seem reluctant to admit that their hero lost in a fair fight?

It's obvious that something was making a difference yesterday, whether a physical problem with the knee or a lack of confidence in the knee, or a lack of the necessary fine-tune conditioning for playing on grass instead of clay.  Whether the knee or something else was making the difference we won't know, although it's likely the knee played a part.

I used to get wound up by starred slam arguments and all of that, but it's an argument nobody can ever win absent a willingness to concede on one or other side (mind you it was easier to let it go after Fed won Aus Open 2010, and then in particular Wimbledon last year in the age of titans).

In a physical sport part of what the player must bring to the party along with his innate skill, win to will, tennis brain, and so on is his physical fitness.  If he can't he will lose - one can always say that his state of fitness affected his play, but it doesn't affect the score or re-write the name on the cup.  I don't see why a player's inability to get himself into the correct state to win a match is seen as somehow excusable compared to other explanations for his loss (extreme examples are exceptions - e.g. monica seles).

Spot on barry. Great post.

Just saw Henman talking about it (live)
He says Rafa must have been 100% fit during the FO, that it was not possible to win it, including the 9-7 5th set against Djoko, unless he was 100% fit. He's just not sure what could have changed in the last 2 weeks, given that we would have rested for a few days after RG.
He also made reference to Rafa struggling in the 3rd set, so maybe Rafa did go into the match 100%, not expecting any problems, but the low bounce and the extra bending caused problems after a while.

Yes but he did add that it may be something about movement on grass - the bending and such-like. I would say his struggling came more pronounced as the match wore on and he was missing a lot of curious shots and opting against playing back-hand. He wasn't right but credit to Darcis - a nice little interview with him at the start of today's BBC coverage. Seems a nice bloke.

I would hope Federer can take a few lessons from Nadal's defeat and play a bit flatter, especially off the backhand when he next plays the Spaniard. I doubt he will though as he is too stubborn.