Nadal 0 Darcis 3 - Initial Thoughts

by Henman Bill Mon 24 Jun 2013, 7:14 pm

First topic message reminder :

First to Rafa fans: Well done for braving the forum first of all. Your man is a great champion and will be back as he always is, history will remember the 2008 final more than this match which will be merely a footnote, and champions are made by titles and head to head battles with fellow top players. History is kind to these sorts of results. Many of the greats in tennis history suffered shock defeats.

After joining the match in the second set tiebreaker (so saw less than half of it):

Nadal – did not look himself at all. Physically, he was sometimes clearly pulling up. Some very strange shots, like drop slices into the net, hitting the ball far too short. I assume it’s a physical issue/injury. If not, something mental (personal issue). In some ways I think it’s both. Rafa seems to lose belief and confidence in his game when he isn’t close to 100% physically, despite being the fighter that he is. Nadal has never lost in straight sets at Wimbledon, has he? Never lost in the first round at any slam? If Rafa was himself, this would never have happened, he was so poor. I would be curious to see Lydian’s thoughts on his movement.

Darcis – Well done to him. I will congratulate him but…I think both professional (BBC) and amateur (this forum) pundits have overcalled the performance. He played better than average for him for sure but to me took advantage of a good situation in his favour in terms of Rafa’s poor performance. He seemed to hit some shots way long, wait for Rafa errors etc. Served well certainly. I could see him losing in R2, R3 or R4 at most. He has a winnable match in R2 (Kubot) where I might make him favourite on this performance, but second favourite in all other matches after that.

Compared to Rosol match – somehow, this feels less shocking to me. When Rafa went on court against Rosol, we could say he had reached the final of every Wimbledon he had entered since losing early in 2005 (his first try at Wimbledon) and also that he had reached at least the quarter final in every slam since losing to Soderling in 2009 FO R4, and that the last time he lost before R4 had been in 2005. This time, we can say it was just similar to last year. Also, last year was much more dramatic and exciting with the 5^th set under the roof, the tension. Here, in a straight setter with much more than a hint of an injury (I didn’t think he did have one against Rosol, not at the time anyway) it wasn’t the same. Also, Rosol in the 5^th set played so well compared to Darcis, a whole other level. Rosol’s performance was legend, Darcis’s just merely surprising. Also, when I saw the Soderling result I literally ask myself if I had imagined it, Rafa seemed impregnable then, now, with injury worries well documented, this was always a possibility. Only the 3^rd most surprising loss of his career.

Rafa shock defeats – that’s arguably the 3 most shocking defeats in tennis since Bastl-Sampras 2001 – all happening to the same player. Murray, Djokovic and especially Federer just don’t have equivalent results. Why?

I suppose it could be any or all of:

1-    his health/physical issues/injuries

2-    his passive play which exposes himself to players in the zone or playing aggressively and gambling

3-    the fact that he starts slowly at times, both in matches and tournaments, expecting to gear up to form later.

4-    coincidence.

5-    such a great player, that big results against him are just so much more interesting even compared to Murray or maybe even Djokovic (at least pre 2011 version)

Some footnotes:

a)    Shame we won’t see the Federer-Nadal QF, although it didn’t seem right to be a QF so have mixed feelings about that, would prefer one more FINAL at Wimbledon one day (although even in some ways would be good to just finish their rivalry here as it ended in 2008. It can’t get any better than that).

b)   Nadal loses a little momentum in the slam total battle with Roger and others.

c)    Federer now a more realistic title contender, looked a really big ask before this.

d)    Lot of talk about Nadal for year end 1 on here a while back. I said at the time I didn’t believe it and I think others may have to join me now in that he is in a battle for year end no 2 with Murray, especially if Djokovic walks off with this title. Nadal should reach a high ranking position after the AO anyway, not the year end, since he didn’t play it this year.

e)    The issue of Rafa being seeded #5 is no longer an issue now. The lopsided draw is no longer top heavy. If anything you could argue it’s work out quite fairly to have Djokovic the top seed in the easier half.

Finally
Wish him well. Hope Rafa is back for the US hard court season, and not a long term absence.

by Henman Bill Mon 24 Jun 2013, 9:19 pm

channel 301 bbc freeview starting now

by carrieg4 Mon 24 Jun 2013, 9:21 pm

On a side note it appears to have caught the atp site by surprise. They have the right score but the wrong order picard

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Scores/Daily-Scores.aspx

by _homogenised_ Mon 24 Jun 2013, 9:23 pm

Henman Bill wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zugpfIASTlk

Very fair comments from Rafa "I don't want to talk about my knee today".

Read between the lines. "My knee was very bad. I don't want to talk about that today, so we'll talk about it more later so as not to take credit away from my opponent too much."

Very fair comment, much better than with Rosol where he came out with injured months later. Look at the you tube clip above, it's pretty clear.

He entered the tournament. And he lost. When you enter a tournament, you indicate that you believe you can win it. That's what sport is about. If you don't feel you can win it, or feel unfit, or injured, you don't. These are just lousy excuses.

by ChequeredJersey Mon 24 Jun 2013, 9:24 pm

_homogenised_ wrote:
Henman Bill wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zugpfIASTlk

Very fair comments from Rafa "I don't want to talk about my knee today".

Read between the lines. "My knee was very bad. I don't want to talk about that today, so we'll talk about it more later so as not to take credit away from my opponent too much."

Very fair comment, much better than with Rosol where he came out with injured months later. Look at the you tube clip above, it's pretty clear.

He entered the tournament. And he lost. When you enter a tournament, you indicate that you believe you can win it. That's what sport is about. If you don't feel you can win it, or feel unfit, or injured, you don't. These are just lousy excuses.

He didn't make an excuse...

by lydian Mon 24 Jun 2013, 9:25 pm

Indeed CC but we know many will never acknowledge any injury because its much better to harangue the guy for losing to a journeyman because Rafa has no talent, no adaptability, etc..that's always at the heart of their modus operandi.

Yep HB, I heard that interview on Five Live, Rafa was asked the knee question 5-6 times but wouldn't budge an inch from Darcis playing well. So much for the excuse maker he's made out to be. However, the elephant in the room was that everyone knew it was the knees.

by _homogenised_ Mon 24 Jun 2013, 9:25 pm

I am talking about Henman Bill's assessment of it "pretty clear [that he is injured]", and he is probably right, that you only need to use an ounce of sense to see what Nadal is really saying. Same as he did with Rosol.

by break_in_the_fifth Mon 24 Jun 2013, 9:26 pm

I think it's fine to have excuses after a match.

by _homogenised_ Mon 24 Jun 2013, 9:26 pm

lydian wrote:So much for the excuse maker he's made out to be.

Made out to be? It's like you can't see his interviews or something., Did you even read the one the other day about Rosol? He blatantly claimed he was not fit but that "Rosol would PROBABLY have won anyway" In a month or two he will be saying same about this dude.

by ChequeredJersey Mon 24 Jun 2013, 9:26 pm

What's he meant to say? "Actually my knees don't hurt at all"?

by ChequeredJersey Mon 24 Jun 2013, 9:27 pm

Rosol probably figured Rafa wasn't 100% match-fit by the 7+ month break he then took from the game thumbsup

by _homogenised_ Mon 24 Jun 2013, 9:28 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:What's he meant to say? "Actually my knees don't hurt at all"?

How about have some class, and realise that you entered the tournament. If you enter a tournament, that's the end of it.

by ChequeredJersey Mon 24 Jun 2013, 9:28 pm

Probably

by ChequeredJersey Mon 24 Jun 2013, 9:30 pm

_homogenised_ wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:What's he meant to say? "Actually my knees don't hurt at all"?

How about have some class, and realise that you entered the tournament. If you enter a tournament, that's the end of it.

He was asked specifically about the knees. He knew (obviously correctly) that he would be asked more about the knees. Hell, even Darcis was asked about the knees. He refused to talk about the knees. What else was he meant to do? Punch the interviewer in the face? Lie? Remain silent and pretend he can hear the wird "knee"?

by JubbaIsle Mon 24 Jun 2013, 9:30 pm

lydian wrote:Indeed CC but we know many will never acknowledge any injury because its much better to harangue the guy for losing to a journeyman because Rafa has no talent, no adaptability, etc..that's always at the heart of their modus operandi.

Yep HB, I heard that interview on Five Live, Rafa was asked the knee question 5-6 times but wouldn't budge an inch from Darcis playing well. So much for the excuse maker he's made out to be. However, the elephant in the room was that everyone knew it was the knees.

Maybe the woods so thick for trees they can't see the end of their noses.

I introduced my wife to some portions of the Nadaleque Revues today. She couldn't believe the intensity of hate for someone who is just a tennis player. I said its to do with wasted lives and she said, they don't deserve a life in that case.

I couldn't find an argument for that.

by CaledonianCraig Mon 24 Jun 2013, 9:31 pm

I tell you what this is akin to.

Imagine Manchester United beginning next season with a string of losses but rival supporters not willing to accept the reason for that is the loss of Sir Alex Ferguson. Similarly here, what is or has been Nadal's great strength is speed and movement around the court and ability to retrieve balls others can't - there was none of that today. Darcis deserves credit for the way he played and I applaud him but lets get this into perspective.

by Henman Bill Mon 24 Jun 2013, 9:33 pm

You had me at Homogenised...then you lost me after that..I pretty much disagree with a lot of the rest.

Example: "When you enter a tournament, you indicate that you believe you can win it. "
This is just flat out wrong.

You think Darcis believes he can win Wimbledon. Kyle Edmund at the age of 18 playing his first match here? Do you think when Accrington Stanley enter the FA Cup qualifiers they expect to win at Wembley? What about when San Marino enter the world cup qualifiers they expect to win the whole thing? Of course not.

Most people know they won't win and are there to get ranking points, prize money, enjoy playing the game, whatever. If only the players that genuinely believed they can win it entered there would be about 100 byes in the draw.

by _homogenised_ Mon 24 Jun 2013, 9:34 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:
_homogenised_ wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:What's he meant to say? "Actually my knees don't hurt at all"?

How about have some class, and realise that you entered the tournament. If you enter a tournament, that's the end of it.

He was asked specifically about the knees. He knew (obviously correctly) that he would be asked more about the knees. Hell, even Darcis was asked about the knees. He refused to talk about the knees. What else was he meant to do? Punch the interviewer in the face? Lie? Remain silent and pretend he can hear the wird "knee"?

I am not talking about this interview. This interview probably wouldn't have happened if he wasn't so classless as to blame the last loss to Rosol on his knees just the other day. And the fact he can't stop going on about his knees. In a few months he will be blaming this loss on the knees. I am more bothered about the posters on this site and elsewhere who continually blame the knee whenever he loses.

He entered it, he lost. It's that simple. FITNESS IS A PART OF TENNIS.

by ChequeredJersey Mon 24 Jun 2013, 9:34 pm

Now that you've said that, CC, watch Darcis shock us all and win the Tournament without dropping a set thumbsup

by Henman Bill Mon 24 Jun 2013, 9:34 pm

Lydian funny I thought the exact same thing about Hamburg. I would surprised if he really did it though, top players just don't seem to do that kind of thing in reality.

by ChequeredJersey Mon 24 Jun 2013, 9:37 pm

Believe what you want, homogenised. This bloke believes some interesting things too:

Spoiler:

by CaledonianCraig Mon 24 Jun 2013, 9:42 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:Believe what you want, homogenised. This bloke believes some interesting things too:
Spoiler:

by invisiblecoolers Mon 24 Jun 2013, 9:43 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:
Exactly how I saw it. I have watched Rafa for years and his reputation is for his supreme court coverage, speed, returning and retrieval ability which has been second to none and that just wasn't there today. If you saw his pre-tournament interview at around 11.45 am this morning it told me he wasn't confident about the knee saying something like he 'hoped the knee would be alright'. When a player renowned for movement, speed, returning is reduced to sluggish movement then you get what you got today. Full credit to Darcis as he did a great job to stay focussed and played the right shots at the right time but for Rafa I shuddered to think where his mind is now regarding that knee and what the future holds if the injury has flared up on his first competitive match on grass.

Well Rafa always struggled on the 1st week of Wimbledon, do you want me to list some of them for you? here you go

1]Rafa vs Soderling 2007 or 2008 not sure , 5 sets, Soderling was not even a big name then
2]Rafa vs. Youzhny same year, Rafa was lucky enough to scrap the win as Youzh panicked from 2 sets up.
3]Rafa vs. Robin Haase 5 sets before he went on to cling the title in 2010
4]Rafa vs. Rosol , everybody knows of it
5]Rafa vs. Darcis , now everybody know of it.

There are more matches in GS including French Open let alone Wimbledon alone where Rafa struggled in the 1st week, Rafa is a grinder, it takes some time for him to warm up and and play the best to the conditions, this year having not played the warm ups he was clearly caught cold and the inspired opponent didn't buckle under pressure stealed the win.

Its shame rather than celebrating an underdog win over a legendary champion we are talking about injuries and excuses. Doh

by _homogenised_ Mon 24 Jun 2013, 9:45 pm

he almost lost in first round of French Open THIS year... and he ended up winning it. Now, if he had been kicked out (and it was close), what are the chances the knee would have been blamed?

Also, the fact Nadal was talking about his knee is again preparing his excuses... he's legendary at it. Craig, maybe he just had a bad day? Maybe his opponent didn't LET him play his best. Have you ever thought about that? Do you think nadal enters every tournament like a God???

by CaledonianCraig Mon 24 Jun 2013, 9:51 pm

invisiblecoolers wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
Exactly how I saw it. I have watched Rafa for years and his reputation is for his supreme court coverage, speed, returning and retrieval ability which has been second to none and that just wasn't there today. If you saw his pre-tournament interview at around 11.45 am this morning it told me he wasn't confident about the knee saying something like he 'hoped the knee would be alright'. When a player renowned for movement, speed, returning is reduced to sluggish movement then you get what you got today. Full credit to Darcis as he did a great job to stay focussed and played the right shots at the right time but for Rafa I shuddered to think where his mind is now regarding that knee and what the future holds if the injury has flared up on his first competitive match on grass.

Well Rafa always struggled on the 1st week of Wimbledon, do you want me to list some of them for you? here you go

1]Rafa vs Soderling 2007 or 2008 not sure , 5 sets, Soderling was not even a big name then
2]Rafa vs. Youzhny same year, Rafa was lucky enough to scrap the win as Youzh panicked from 2 sets up.
3]Rafa vs. Robin Haase 5 sets before he went on to cling the title in 2010
4]Rafa vs. Rosol , everybody knows of it
5]Rafa vs. Darcis , now everybody know of it.

There are more matches in GS including French Open let alone Wimbledon alone where Rafa struggled in the 1st week, Rafa is a grinder, it takes some time for him to warm up and and play the best to the conditions, this year having not played the warm ups he was clearly caught cold and the inspired opponent didn't buckle under pressure stealed the win.

Its shame rather than celebrating an underdog win over a legendary champion we are talking about injuries and excuses.

Of course he struggled but he never lost in the First Round. Heck even the greatest grass court players of all-time have had struggles in the first week such as Federer and Sampras. I will state again (sorry for restating the bleedin' obvious) but his movement was in no way like the Rafa that we know of. Slow, laboured, poor on shots requiring knee bend and service action lacked spring. Okay you may say this is just my opinion but several ex-pros picked up on the clear laboured movement as well and those people's views deserve more consideration than ramblings of posters on a tennis forum.

by invisiblecoolers Mon 24 Jun 2013, 9:52 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:Believe what you want, homogenised. This bloke believes some interesting things too:
Spoiler:

Good one

by invisiblecoolers Mon 24 Jun 2013, 9:57 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Of course he struggled but he never lost in the First Round. Heck even the greatest grass court players of all-time have had struggles in the first week such as Federer and Sampras. I will state again (sorry for restating the bleedin' obvious) but his movement was in no way like the Rafa that we know of. Slow, laboured, poor on shots requiring knee bend and service action lacked spring. Okay you may say this is just my opinion but several ex-pros picked up on the clear laboured movement as well and those people's views deserve more consideration than ramblings of posters on a tennis forum.

To make it simple thats what we call an off day:picard:, yes Rafa was poor, but thats neccessarily due to injury it could be various reasons ,

1]Could be off day
2]Opponent didn't let Rafa play his best
3]The bounce on grass was too slow which created the discomfort like Lyd pointed out.
4]Lack of practice matches on grass since his return from injury led him to a poor show.
5]May be he took it too easy and was delighted to have Federer as the QF opponent than Djoko Nadal 0 Darcis 3 - Initial Thoughts - Page 2 1347041234

Nadal 0 Darcis 3 - Initial Thoughts - Page 2 1347041234

6]May be the mental scars Rosol inflicted is still there, and Rafa doubts his movements on grass, if not for his mental scars there was really no reason for him to discuss about last years match before the start of this edition. furious

Darcis didn't have the power of Rosol but more than made it up with the skill part, like Mahut , Darcis is a better grass court player than they may be at other surfaces.

I understand you are upset over Rafa's loss, its sports and Rafa is just another player could be legendary but by no means a GOD and could have off day and hence the result.

There is a famous saying, if you lose move on and focus on next hurdle as the winners alone have the bragging rights. RedWine

by Henman Bill Mon 24 Jun 2013, 10:02 pm

Just watched 30 minutes of highlights of the first half of the match, as I previously joined it half way through. Noticed a couple of things:

1. Rafa's poor movement and not reaching balls was primarily evident in the 3rd set, e.g. at 15-30 in the first game, after going 2-0 down. His court coverage and speed and general fitness look better in the first 2 sets. The first set, from the highlights, at least in the key moments, was more a case of Darcis playing really well unlike the 3rd set when he looked pretty average to me. I think Rafa was average/mediocre for sets 1 and 2, and very poor in 3. Admittedly only saw highlights of sets 1 and 2.

2. Backhand issue. His serve is reasonably OK and his forehand is good. But the backhand was very inconsistent, with plenty of shots into the net. Also, he seemed to make more effort to avoid backhands than usual, even by his normal standards of crab like running around them. Look, if the match reaches you tube or iplayer, at the first set tiebreak at 3-5 and in the second set tiebreak at 2-3. His backhand avoidance in these 2 points is excessive by any standards and ends up losing the point as he hits wild forehands while still running across the ball to avoid the backhand. This may be indicative of a physical problem when hitting backhands.

by CaledonianCraig Mon 24 Jun 2013, 10:06 pm

ic why would I be upset about Rafa's loss when I am, as you know, an Andy Murray supporter. Strange remark. I am stating what I saw and others saw many of whom are far better qualified to remark than you or I. As for your points:-

1. No as that would suggest 100% fitness.
2. Perhaps but could Rafa play his best when troubled with movement issues (will avoid i word in case it offends too much)
3. Yes I can accept that.
4. Perhaps but then again if Nadal and his team were as nervous about the knee (as in pre-tournament interview) then they probably didn't want to risk it.
5. No. More perhaps that he never had confidence to really test the knee.
6. Yes that could have been an issue.

by CaledonianCraig Mon 24 Jun 2013, 10:08 pm

Henman Bill wrote:Just watched 30 minutes of highlights of the first half of the match, as I previously joined it half way through. Noticed a couple of things:

1. Rafa's poor movement and not reaching balls was primarily evident in the 3rd set, e.g. at 15-30 in the first game, after going 2-0 down. His court coverage and speed and general fitness look better in the first 2 sets. The first set, from the highlights, at least in the key moments, was more a case of Darcis playing really well unlike the 3rd set when he looked pretty average to me. I think Rafa was average/mediocre for sets 1 and 2, and very poor in 3. Admittedly only saw highlights of sets 1 and 2.

2. Backhand issue. His serve is reasonably OK and his forehand is good. But the backhand was very inconsistent, with plenty of shots into the net. Also, he seemed to make more effort to avoid backhands than usual, even by his normal standards of crab like running around them. Look, if the match reaches you tube or iplayer, at the first set tiebreak at 3-5 and in the second set tiebreak at 2-3. His backhand avoidance in these 2 points is excessive by any standards and ends up losing the point as he hits wild forehands while still running across the ball to avoid the backhand. This may be indicative of a physical problem when hitting backhands.

I'd say he was looking to avoid shots that involved knee bend to play them. He was awful on drop volleys at the net. He missed countless of those shots hitting into the net when inside the service line.

by time please Mon 24 Jun 2013, 10:20 pm

First thought - unbelievable! Only seen the highlights but I was listening to five live as I drove up and down the country today and certainly commentators were remarking that Nadal was limping at the beginning of the 3rd set.

Very sad after taking his record 8th RG title - he was my favourite to take the W crown this year because he was in form player and I thought his confidence would be in very good nick. You have to wonder if that long semi has wreaked some damage. I just can't really get over how well Nadal has played since his comeback and after his prolonged absence for it all to end so suddenly at Wimbledon - hopefully he will be okay for the American hard court swing and that this latest setback does not mean surgery.

Second thought - this opens up a big opportunity for Fed to make the semi, and everything suddenly looks a little easier for Murray too - could this be the year that a British man lifts the trophy for the first time in eons?

by Henman Bill Mon 24 Jun 2013, 10:25 pm

Now that you mention it this is certainly a boost for my Murray prediction!

by kingraf Mon 24 Jun 2013, 10:37 pm

The thing for me is that, a during the match I had read an article which had mentioned a training session Nadal had had with Monaco, hours beforr the match. In the session Nadal had apparently asked Monaco to specifically hit to the backhand. I initially though it was due to him not having played on grass for so long. But you have to wonder if he was struggling for movement, and that was a last ditch attempt to adjust. Nadal's backhand . Of course you could say I'm simply shopping for excuses, but Nadal would have to be pretty cunning to have a practise in full public view whereby he tries to fix the very thing which bothered him, just so he could have an excuse for being hopelessly outplayed.

www.tennis.com/pro-game/2013/06/rafael-nadal-court-11/48038/

A link to the story, if to be believed after serving practise Nadal focused on mainly on his backhand. I dont think Nadal played too badly overrall (lost two tie-breakers and had his serve broken only twice), I certainly dont expect him to take time off again, but it should be remembered that this was his fifth game on grass in two years.

Federer must be looking at the semi's now. Murray must be fancying his chances.

by Henman Bill Mon 24 Jun 2013, 10:39 pm

Rafa presser
http://www.wimbledon.com/en_GB/news/interviews/2013-06-24/201306241372099884415.html

by lydian Mon 24 Jun 2013, 10:51 pm

Boris Becker has said Nadal needs to consider his future on grass given his vulnerable knee...

"This is a big, big shock. Nadal has come back from injury so strongly this year but he was playing mainly on clay. Grass is very different compared to the other surfaces. Your movement is different and you have to have healthy legs because you're changing direction, you're slipping and sliding.

Even though he won all those tournaments, Nadal had been struggling somewhat with the knee and I always thought he might struggle at Wimbledon this year. I almost thought that he should contemplate not playing because he was out for a long time and you shouldn't underestimate it.

Early on in the match I thought, 'This isn't the Nadal I've seen in Paris, this isn't the Nadal that won Rome'. Credit to Darcis; he took his chance, played aggressively, wasn't afraid, went for the groundstrokes and went for the serve. He kept his composure, wasn't getting too nervous, wasn't getting too crazy out there and and ended up achieving something you don't do every day.

In a way, maybe it's a good thing for Nadal because if he had been knocked out in, say, the fourth round or quarter-finals it would have put a lot of strain on the legs. Now he has a few more days and weeks off and he can think about his schedule for the rest of the year.

Nadal wasn't confident in his movement - normally that's his best part. He wasn't confident, he was hitting a lot of unforced errors and I was wondering, 'Why is he making these errors? The ball was there!'. Then I observed a bit better and noticed his foot placement wasn't the way it normally is, especially when he had to move. When he was set, he was good. But when he had to move, he wasn't the same and he didn't have that solid base he had on the clay.

If you have a knee problem, grass is the worst surface. Hard courts are not as bad because you have a firm position, you can put your foot down and stand up to hit the ball - the bounce is higher so you don't have to bend as low. I wouldn't worry about Nadal playing on hard courts or indoors, but I always thought grass was an issue.

In terms of his whole career, he has answered the questions. He won the French Open and, in my opinion, is the player of the year so far. He is surrounded by great people and I'm not going to suggest anything to him but, from an outside point of view, he definitely has to reconsider his future on grass.

by CaledonianCraig Mon 24 Jun 2013, 10:55 pm

Tim Henman has also offered his views.....

"It's a huge surprise but, for me, as big a surprise was to see him struggling with his knee because he's played nine tournaments this year - winning seven - and he's just come off winning his eighth Roland Garros. You can't do that if you're not fit.
"To see him struggle makes me wonder whether grass actually puts a bit more stress on his patella tendon, with maybe a bit more bending. Only Rafa knows if grass is a problem, but most of us would have thought that grass, being softer, was perhaps a little bit more helpful. Maybe that isn't the case.
"I tend not to want to speculate on these things. Rafa's pretty up front and honest, and I'm sure in the weeks and months ahead we'll find out a bit more.
"It shows the strength in depth of men's tennis at the moment and we should focus on Darcis's performance, it was phenomenal. There were definitely a few question marks about Rafa being seeded five, but not many people would have said this was a particularly tricky draw and he lost."

by CaledonianCraig Mon 24 Jun 2013, 10:57 pm

Others have offered their opinion on this as well. In any case I hope Rafa is back playing soon and this is not as bad as it looks.

by lydian Mon 24 Jun 2013, 11:01 pm

Yep CC, love or loathe Rafa the game just isn't the same without him.

by MrInvisible Mon 24 Jun 2013, 11:03 pm

I go along with InvisibleCoolers' analysis - Nadal has struggled in a few early rounds in previous years at Wimbledon, and built his form and confidence up with each match. In a number of years we've seen Nadal win these matches in 3rd gear. This year though his lack of match practice on grass caught up with him and Darcis was in no mood to miss out on the opportunity to claim the biggest win of his career.

Looking at the match, Darcis played inspired tennis. Nadal did throw in a few uncharacteristic errors and was staying too far behind the baseline. Normally with the transition from clay to grass, Nadal makes the adjustment quite nicely of stepping up the court - however, in this match he was way too far back and letting Darcis dictate a lot of the points.

by invisiblecoolers Mon 24 Jun 2013, 11:05 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote: I am stating what I saw and others saw many of whom are far better qualified to remark than you or I. As for your points:-

Just to correct you there, nobody is more qualified to remark on my view point which I saw, people working in media have their work cut off and thats to be diplomatic and create sympathy for the media boy, they don't see or sometimes don't talk actual words coz they are bound to their work.

I understand your view point and do understand you feel bad for Rafa's loss and no wonder its making you think in a biased way, I am neither a Rafa hater nor a Rafa fan and I could say from a neutral perspective which many neutral persons agree, Rafa was caught cold and he didn't play his best but that not due to injury, this is more or less the same Rafa that played the FO, the difference is the surface and his own mental demons of playing grass considering what happened last time.

Blaming every Rafa's loss for Knees is seriously getting tiresome, indeed Rafa itself wants to avoid that discussion, Darcis was the better player today and rightfully won, lets acknowledge the winner and forget the excuses for the moment. thumbsup

Rafa will come back and come back stronger and will have his moments and that time lets discuss about him, for the moment we have other stars including your favourite left and lets discuss them.

Vamous Darcis for being the better player today and for winning a fully fit Rafa hands down. thumbsup

by invisiblecoolers Mon 24 Jun 2013, 11:07 pm

MrInvisible wrote:I go along with InvisibleCoolers' analysis - Nadal has struggled in a few early rounds in previous years at Wimbledon, and built his form and confidence up with each match. In a number of years we've seen Nadal win these matches in 3rd gear. This year though his lack of match practice on grass caught up with him and Darcis was in no mood to miss out on the opportunity to claim the biggest win of his career.

Looking at the match, Darcis played inspired tennis. Nadal did throw in a few uncharacteristic errors and was staying too far behind the baseline. Normally with the transition from clay to grass, Nadal makes the adjustment quite nicely of stepping up the court - however, in this match he was way too far back and letting Darcis dictate a lot of the points.

We are the Invisibles and Invincibles Very Happy

by JubbaIsle Mon 24 Jun 2013, 11:09 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:Believe what you want, homogenised. This bloke believes some interesting things too:
Spoiler:

Thanks for that, it was hilarious.

Sounds like many conversations that go on here sometimes....LOL

by invisiblecoolers Mon 24 Jun 2013, 11:11 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:Tim Henman has also offered his views.....

"It's a huge surprise but, for me, as big a surprise was to see him struggling with his knee because he's played nine tournaments this year - winning seven - and he's just come off winning his eighth Roland Garros. You can't do that if you're not fit.
"To see him struggle makes me wonder whether grass actually puts a bit more stress on his patella tendon, with maybe a bit more bending. Only Rafa knows if grass is a problem, but most of us would have thought that grass, being softer, was perhaps a little bit more helpful. Maybe that isn't the case.
"I tend not to want to speculate on these things. Rafa's pretty up front and honest, and I'm sure in the weeks and months ahead we'll find out a bit more.
"It shows the strength in depth of men's tennis at the moment and we should focus on Darcis's performance, it was phenomenal. There were definitely a few question marks about Rafa being seeded five, but not many people would have said this was a particularly tricky draw and he lost."

That explains grass was more of a problem and not getting used to it caused him the loss, which is was I was advocating for quite some time, which for some reason you fail to understand and thanks for quoting the view, so you are wrong when you said some more qualified persons didnt agree with me, indeed they agreed with me as well.

It is a surpise for everybody including me, I didn't go on to say Darcis would win hands down before the start of the match, so was it for Tim, but the reason is not he is injured but he couldn't adapt to grass and was caught cold as this being the first match.

by bogbrush Mon 24 Jun 2013, 11:14 pm

Just watching the match on red button. He's obviously crocked, Darcis is playing rubbish.

by **JuliusHMarx** Mon 24 Jun 2013, 11:22 pm

I wonder how much of it is a mental issue - Rafa (sub?)consciously not wanting to really test the knee out, which then makes his movement look uncomfortable.

by invisiblecoolers Mon 24 Jun 2013, 11:23 pm

bogbrush wrote:Just watching the match on red button. He's obviously crocked, Darcis is playing rubbish.

But didn't he deserve this for skipping the warm up events? Whistle

, if he thought he was superman and could play Wimbledon without warm up events then he got shot at the right place .

by invisiblecoolers Mon 24 Jun 2013, 11:24 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:I wonder how much of it is a mental issue - Rafa (sub?)consciously not wanting to really test the knee out, which then makes his movement look uncomfortable.

Well Legend of Lukos Rosol didn't end with 2012, the ghost continued today censored

by bogbrush Mon 24 Jun 2013, 11:27 pm

invisiblecoolers wrote:
bogbrush wrote:Just watching the match on red button. He's obviously crocked, Darcis is playing rubbish.

But didn't he deserve this for skipping the warm up events?, if he thought he was superman and could play Wimbledon without warm up events then he got shot at the right place .

I doubt it's caused by lack of prep, it's just that bit by bit his knee is getting worse.

by invisiblecoolers Mon 24 Jun 2013, 11:34 pm

bogbrush wrote:
invisiblecoolers wrote:
bogbrush wrote:Just watching the match on red button. He's obviously crocked, Darcis is playing rubbish.

But didn't he deserve this for skipping the warm up events?, if he thought he was superman and could play Wimbledon without warm up events then he got shot at the right place .
I doubt it's caused by lack of prep, it's just that bit by bit his knee is getting worse.

Well Well you know scaring the Rafitos here censored

by **laverfan** Mon 24 Jun 2013, 11:42 pm

A certain Mr. Borg, did not believe in playing Grass warm-ups and ended with 5 on the Grass.

As iC (The Invincibles/Invisibles) says, a win is much more worth celebrating then a loss.

by FedsFan Mon 24 Jun 2013, 11:45 pm

Stunned but at the same time he was won such a streak that something like this was coming but not to Darcis!

I was watching him practicing on the outside courts (incidently on the same court after Fed!) and he was moving well, hitting the ball well and his session was so full of energy compared to Federer. He seemed fine but perhaps Juan Monaco was maybe not the best hitting partner as he is not a grass court player. Federer on the other hand practiced with Cilic and had Ivanisevic on hand too.

I think if it had gone on longer Nadal would have won. I believe tie breaks can sometimes rob a good player of a set with a point here and there but Nadal should have served out the 2nd. He was probably stunned hence dropping serve early in the 3rd.

Lack of matches on grass was probably a big issue. Change in surfaces probably did have an effect. He needed a break but it was a little arrogant of him to think he could just turn up after the clay season and switch to grass.

I feel for his fans as I know how disappointing it is when your guy/team get beaten early like this but from a selfish Federer perspective and fan's view, this was a lucky break for Roger having been dealt the worse draw. I only hope he does not miss his chance as he is in with a shot now as otherwise to beat Nadal, Murray and Djokovic back to back is tough and that applies to any in the top 4. The Murray camp is probably breathing a sigh of relief too and I think the stars are aligned in his favour this year.

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