Ulster 2013/2014

First topic message reminder :

It had to come eventually.

Squad

HOOKER
Rory Best, Rob Herring, Niall Annett
PROP
Tom Court, Callum Black, Paddy McAllister, Declan Fitzpatrick, John Afoa, Bronson Ross, Adam Macklin, Ricky Lutton
LOCK
Johann Muller (c), Dan Tuohy, Neil McComb, Lewis Stevenson
BACKROW
Iain Henderson, Stephen Ferris, Mike McComish, Sean Doyle, Chris Henry, Robbie Diack, Roger Wilson, Nick Williams
SCRUM-HALF
Ruan Pienaar, Michael Heaney, Paul Marshall
OUTHALF
Paddy Jackson, James McKinney
CENTRES
Stuart Olding, Luke Marshall, Paddy Wallace, Darren Cave, Michael Allen
WING
Tommy Bowe, Andrew Trimble, Craig Gilroy, Chris Cochrane
FULL BACK
Jared Payne, Peter Nelson, David McIlwaine

Confirmed Pre-Season Games
Ulster Rugby vs Leinster Rugby, 23rd August
Leicester Tigers vs Ulster Rugby, 31st August

Heineken Cup Pool 5
Ulster Rugby, Leicester Tigers, Montpellier, Treviso

Ulster Rugby vs Leicester Tigers, 11th October
Montpellier vs Ulster Rugby, 19th October
Ulster Rugby vs Treviso, 7th December
Treviso vs Ulster Rugby, 14th December
Ulster Rugby vs Montpellier, 10th-12th January
Leicester Tigers vs Ulster Rugby, 17th-19th January

RaboDirectPro12

First five games starting on the 6th September;

Newport Gwent Dragons vs Ulster Rugby    
Ulster Rugby vs Glasgow Warriors            
Connacht Rugby vs Ulster Rugby
Ulster Rugby vs Benetton Treviso
Ospreys vs Ulster Rugby

Full fixtures at http://www.ulsterrugby.com/rugby/results_1stxv.php

Really strong Ulster Ravens team playing tomorrow;

Ulster Ravens XV & Replacements v Connacht Eagles, Deramore Park, Belfast, Friday 15th November (kick off 6.00pm):

(15-9): R Andrew; D McIlwaine, M Allen, C Farrell, P Nelson; S Olding, P Marshall;
(1-8): K McCall, N Annett, R Lutton, L Stevenson (capt), R Diack, M McComish, S Doyle, N Williams;
Replacements (16-23): P Jackson, C Black, A Macklin, L Dow, C Joyce, D Shanahan, J McKinney, S McCloskey.

That halfback partnership might just start against Edinburgh. That's Paddy Jacksons brother Paul in the reserve hooker spot btw.

clivemcl wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

clivemcl wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Shouldn't be allowed a NIQ lock and TH. Ireland still doesn't have too many good options there.

What about getting Denis Buckley at LH? He was near getting an Irish call up only 18 months ago but has fallen out with the coach and is now playing AIL.

Yea Ireland are so short at lock that they are able to leave Tuohy out in the cold. Aye dead on.

So you think Ireland have got good dept at lock?? You must be the only one.

I think from a club POV, we maybe could do with more, but we don't feel the pressure because we don't lose too many to the irish setup.

We have Muller, Stevenson, McComb, Diack who are probably always going to be available to us all year round (unlike Tuohy and Henderson). So why would we worry? If ireland decided to start calling up a few of these then maybe then we would worry.

Or... are you suggesting that the likes of Muller is preventing the likes of McComb from getting gametime is letting down the Ireland side???

Or that our academy doesn't bother coaching that position as much because we expect to continue signing NIQ locks?

This is all getting a bit absurd...

I honestly don't have a clue what your talking about...

Ireland don't have good dept at lock end of story. Once POC retires we are in real trouble, although hopefully Hendo can fill the gap.

LeinsterFan is right - our depth at second row is indeed not looking very good for Ireland.

For Ulster I think our starting second row partnership (when Muller goes) will have a big part to play for Ireland in Tuohy and Henderson.

I hope that the likes of Ben Marshall who can play 6 or second row will focus on nailing down a position at 4/5.  I haven't seen him for Leinster at all this season, unfortunately.

Whatever it is about Tuohy, two Ireland coaches have more or less avoided using him. I thought that maybe McCarthy was used last week because of his familiarity with Toner, but it looks to be more than that now with POC in the equasion.

Would agree Sin. In fairness to Deccie in between injury and also dips in form Tuohy probably didn't ever wholly convince. He has been on fire this season though so you would hope if he continues it through to the 6N he should get a look in. 

I think he certainly should be ahead of McCarthy

LeinsterFan4Life wrote:I honestly don't have a clue what your talking about...

Rory_Gallagher wrote:LeinsterFan is right - our depth at second row is indeed not looking very good for Ireland.

OK, I'll try again.

When you say Ireland have poor depth in second row and cite NIQs as being unhelpful, then you imply one or both of the following:

a) That Muller (or his future replacement) is preventing an IQ player from reaching his potential as an Ireland second row option - who?? McComb? Stevenson? Really?

b) That Muller (or his future replacement) is preventing the Ulster Academy from scouting and coaching second row options.

Both of these are nonsense.

I don't deny there is a shortage of quality locks in Ireland, but the presence of Muller and the likes is a necessary response to the problem, and not by any stretch of the sane imagination the cause of the problem.

If our academy produced another couple of Hendersons, we wouldnt replace Muller with another NIQ, but unfortunately we didn't, and since we want to actually win games, we will of course want to go and buy a few good players to fill the void.

If you want to raise the question of lock development at schoolboy and academy level, feel free, I'll read it with genuine concern. But do us a favour and don't tell us we shouldn't be allowed an NIQ as if all of a sudden we will find an international ability player magically appear when he leaves.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:LeinsterFan is right - our depth at second row is indeed not looking very good for Ireland.

I think 2nd row depth is ok actually, better than its been in a while - if you consider Donnacha Ryan and Henderson are both out injured, Joe still managed to leave O'Connell out last week and Touhy still can't make the bench. O'Callaghan is playing ok at Munster.

Longer term its not looking great but I think we have enough depth to see us through past the RWC.

Anyone been following Caldwell's progress at bath?

rodders wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:LeinsterFan is right - our depth at second row is indeed not looking very good for Ireland.

I think 2nd row depth is ok actually, better than its been in a while - if you consider Donnacha Ryan and Henderson are both out injured, Joe still managed to leave O'Connell out last week and Touhy still can't make the bench. O'Callaghan is playing ok at Munster.

Longer term its not looking great but I think we have enough depth to see us through past the RWC.

Anyone been following Caldwell's progress at bath?  

He was going brilliantly and was one of their first choice locks before a particularly nasty injury and is now trying to make a come back.

http://www.bathchronicle.co.uk/Returning-Ryan-Caldwell-point-prove-Bath-Rugby/story-19975720-detail/story.html

Might we see Caldwell back in an Ulster shirt at some stage?

Any word on Olding? I heard he picked up an injury in the last tackle of the game for Ravens tonight.

None as yet. Ravens win 35-10 

Allen x 2, Nelson, Jackson, Joyce with the tries. Doyle got motm. I have to confess to being shocked by him being below McComish in the pecking order. I was at the last ravens game and although McComish had a couple of runs Doyle was easily motm for me as well that day. Hopefully he gets the chance ahead of magic mike in the 
Pecking order

clivemcl wrote:

LeinsterFan4Life wrote:I honestly don't have a clue what your talking about...

Rory_Gallagher wrote:LeinsterFan is right - our depth at second row is indeed not looking very good for Ireland.

OK, I'll try again.

When you say Ireland have poor depth in second row and cite NIQs as being unhelpful, then you imply one or both of the following:

a) That Muller (or his future replacement) is preventing an IQ player from reaching his potential as an Ireland second row option - who?? McComb? Stevenson? Really?

b) That Muller (or his future replacement) is preventing the Ulster Academy from scouting and coaching second row options.

Both of these are nonsense.

I don't deny there is a shortage of quality locks in Ireland, but the presence of Muller and the likes is a necessary response to the problem, and not by any stretch of the sane imagination the cause of the problem.

If our academy produced another couple of Hendersons, we wouldnt replace Muller with another NIQ, but unfortunately we didn't, and since we want to actually win games, we will of course want to go and buy a few good players to fill the void.

If you want to raise the question of lock development at schoolboy and academy level, feel free, I'll read it with genuine concern. But do us a favour and don't tell us we shouldn't be allowed an NIQ as if all of a sudden we will find an international ability player magically appear when he leaves.

Exactly Clive.

Ulster having a NIQ Lock is stopping no one of even remotely International potential from realizing that potential.
The alternative is to have an uncompetitive second row which would lead to the likelihood of some of our better Irish players leaving.
The IRFU realize this and that is why Ulster will have a very good second row NIQ player next year - whoever it is

Caldwell is signed till 2015 I believe, certainly not 2014 - we needed him available this year really.

Olding twisted a knee - Think he will ok but we await medical report.

Doyle is interesting looks like someone had a quiet word.
Hopefully that performance will get him the 7 shirt against Edinburgh - then its up to him to show he is worth a contract next year.

Some good news Paddy McAllister is good to go - be interesting to see how he is introduced.
An AIB game next week I suspect

Rumour olding is gone for the season on twitter

If so we are fecked next week at 10 and 12.
Paddy Jackson wont be available.

I think we will have to risk McKinney and Farrell and play it tight.
Doyle at 7

Pienaer, Payne, Afoa, Muller need to earn there corn.

Very nervous about the game now - would take a win of any sort at this moment in time

Pienaar won't be available next week either remember.

o crap you are right - we could easily lose this.

7,9,10,12 inspires little confidence

Standulstermen wrote:Rumour olding is gone for the season on twitter

Just to be clear this is pure specualtion until we get the results of the scan no one knows for sure

Shanahan could be on the bench on Friday and we have no cover for 10.

If Marshall is dropped, by Ireland, he will cover otherwise who knows - either a club player or Payne!

Really really down to bare bones at 9,10,12

Any news on Olding?

See above waiting on the scan results - one thing is for sure he will not be playing this weekend

Worse case scenario appears to be

Marshall, McKinney, Allen, Farrell, Cave, Trimble, Payne
Bench: Shanahan, (Another), McIlwaine

I just had to google who Shanahan was - is there really no option out there who has at least reached puberty?

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/media/1917870/david-shannahan.jpg

Heaney and Porter both injured apparantly

What are the bloody odds- Wallace, Olding, Heaney and Porter all out injured the same weekend we are without Pienaar, Jackson and Marshall.

Going to be on the pack to deliver dominance up front. Hopefully we get Court and Wilson back, maybe Trimble. We won't get Jackson and Marshall I'm pretty sure even if the latter is not named.

Doyle has a great opportunity to stake a claim for the openside berth versus Treviso.

Why not move Cave to 12 and have Allen at 13 though?

Trouble with that who goes on the wing besides Trimble

Ones thing is for sure Doyle and McKinney will never have a better chance to prove the doubters wrong

I would actually start Trimble on the right wing for Ireland- ahead of Bowe.

I wouldn't wish my worst enemy to start on the right wing for Ireland next week ....

Olding out for the remainder of the season. Gutted.

It has been confirmed. Olding out for the season.

Horrendous news.

Please somebody give us good news on Paddy Wallace or Ferris or McAllister. Give us something with at least some positive spin please!

McAllister is good to go and I suspect will play an AIB game in November

Paddy Wallace is targeting the Ravens game on the 7th December for his return

1F progressing nicely targeting a run out as sub against Munster is my guess

Feck feck feck feck

McFadden is doubtful for Saturday so Trimble might be called up!

I think Trimble deserves to play tbh. We had no kick chase, no aggression in defence and little physicality. Trimbles specialty. Also believe Tuohy deserves a chance. But by god we need him back if not.

Is Gilroy fit? That would be a big boost.

If not, hope to see;

Court-Herring-Afoa
Stevenson-Tuohy
Diack-Williams-Doyle
Marshall-McKinney
Farrell-Cave
Allen-Payne-McIlwaine

It looks more like a Ravens side than an Ulster side, but at least Edinburgh will be missing a good few players. They have 13 in the Scotland squad, or unavailable to Scotland through injury.

The Great Aukster wrote:McFadden is doubtful for Saturday so Trimble might be called up!

He might - I expect not

D. Kearney to start - Fitzgerald on the bench is my guess

Muller said a couple of weeks back he expects to play in this game

Jeez we really are starting the barrell bottom scraping it seems. Whilst we have built up a good bit of depth nobody could sustain the international call ups and injuries we have. I just hope we don't suffer badly because of a disfunctional Irish team that frankly aren't worth the watching just right now.

There, I offloaded my feelings of bitterness and anguish  

Our strength in depth is a bit of a myth to be honest.

We have perhaps 30 top players you would trust in key games.
Given some spots are over represented - like 6 and 12 that means we are paper thin elsewhere

Yeah Geoff but you know what I mean, compared to what we've grown accustomed to in years gone by. Our strength is at least improving.
We need Wallace and Ferris back at the coalface. I know you've said we shouldn't be too optimistic about big 1F before Geoff but is it still as touch and go? Will we get him for the slightly longer term or very much shorter term if at all?

geoff998rugby wrote:Our strength in depth is a bit of a myth to be honest.

We have perhaps 30 top players you would trust in key games.
Given some spots are over represented - like 6 and 12 that means we are paper thin elsewhere

Isn't that true of all teams,  though? Apart from some of the French juggernauts? Who would Leinster field if they were missing three inside centres?  Or even two? What other province could field a pair of back-up second rows like Stevenson and Henderson?

You just hope that your cumulative injuries happen in a position you are strong in. Luck is always a factor.

We think we have strength in depth because we used to have maybe 7 or 8 players who are good enough to win you things in the whole squad when everyone is fit- sad but true! In terms of depth I feel we seriously lack it at tighthead, lock, openside, outhalf and hooker (we actually have good hookers but any team would suffer without Rory Best).

We're pretty unlucky that we're missing multiple locks and multiple options at 10 and 12 at the same time. We still have a game to win though. These are the games that really show what the coaching staff is made of. We've seen what you can do with the top-class players at your disposal. Now what can you do with the average guys?

We are better than we were but I have to say we are still not great.
Without some key players we as a team fall off a cliff

If Henderson is a lock who are the back up backrowers?
We have Wilson, Willaims, Henry, Diack and then you fall off a cliff (cant include Ferris at this stage)
If you add Henderson in the backrow then we only have Muller, Tuohy, Stevenson and then you fall off a cliff - at lock.

These are not small drops in standard but big down grades.
Same at 13 - our only credible back up is our 15.
Same at 15 - our only credible backups are one of our wingers and one of our 12. We do not have an adequate backup 13 or 15 in the Ravens - yet.

A lot of work being done to change that, not least by McLaughlin, but we have a way to go

I agree, but my point is we're no different from anyone else.

Don Alfonso wrote:Who would Leinster field if they were missing three inside centres?  

Noel Reid probably. We will find out on Friday. Darce, Goodman, Madigan, McFadden, Fitzgerald (In terms of people who CAN play 12) are out.

Ireland news.

McFad out for "a number of weeks" with a hand injury.

Cave and F Jones called in for Bod and Kearney, but Bod will play.

Some of you will see that as a good thing that Cave is in the Ireland squad. Others will moan that he won't be available to Ulster.

You can't win.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Cave and F Jones called in for Bod and Kearney, but Bod will play.

Some of you will see that as a good thing that Cave is in the Ireland squad. Others will moan that he won't be available to Ulster.

You can't win.

If BODs going to play it seems stupid calling Cave up and depriving Ulster of his services especially under the current circumstances

It's not really a good thing for us, it's a wee bit of a disaster tbh given the injuries we have. If Cave doesn't play he should be released back- but it will disrupt our preparations all the same. If Cave, Tuohy, Wilson etc. don't play for Ireland OR Ulster- well, that is unbelievably disappointing. We are going to lose to New Zealand, but we don't have to lose to Edinburgh too- unlike the game against the All Blacks losing to Edinburgh will have consequences for the rest of our season. The difficulty is integrating players who haven't trained with Ulster for several weeks back in with maybe one training session but I'm hopeful we'll get them back in time.

The real culprit is scheduling Pro12 games in international windows. It's a schecule conflict which undermines the league with so many international players totally unavailable. Does it help the profile of the Pro12 as a competition to have second-string sides battling it out? Both sides on Friday will be unrecognisable. Certainly for Ulster this is an absolutely crucial must-win game so yes, I'm very frustrated with the Cave situation with my Ulster cap on. I don't believe we are going to see him in green at all but it will probably affect his performance for Ulster if he is released.

Also it's very stupid having this game before the New Zealand game. Captains Run is on Saturday this week I presume? We need the players who haven't made the Ireland 23 back on Friday.

If BOD is touch and go we might not get Cave back which would be a spectacular f' up by all parties.

Notch if we can have the depth in the next 4/5 years it'll look like a great idea planning it like this forcing the need to have the depth but for now it's painful to watch

Don Alfonso wrote:I agree, but my point is we're no different from anyone else.

Depends who you are comapring with us - I think there are some Pro12 and English clubs in a better position than us.
We are obviously better than others.

No more than average in my view - we need to be better than that.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Who would Leinster field if they were missing three inside centres?  

Noel Reid probably. We will find out on Friday. Darce, Goodman, Madigan, McFadden, Fitzgerald (In terms of people who CAN play 12) are out.

Ireland news.

McFad out for "a number of weeks" with a hand injury.

Cave and F Jones called in for Bod and Kearney, but Bod will play.

Some of you will see that as a good thing that Cave is in the Ireland squad. Others will moan that he won't be available to Ulster.

You can't win.

As an after thought where it probably means he will be a spectator and denied a game for Ulster yer its not great.

He needs to be central to the set up not a player pulled in at the last minute because things are going pear shaped.