World's top Referee to handle World's top club clash

We often criticise a referee when he gets it totally wrong but rarely sing their praises when they get it spectacularly right.

I'd like to correct that a little by congratulating Craig Joubert on his appointment to the super rugby final.

The world's #1 whistler has earned the respect of players, fans and his bosses alike with his consistent, clear and sensible interpretations throughout his career and is a role model others should aspire to.

In recent times he has handled the rugby World Cup final, where he did a splendid job although sparked the ire of some northern fans and journalists by bucking the trend of not penalising France in World Cup competitions featuring New Zealand.

Joubert was again center stage in Australia for the Lions tour where he controlled the only test to be referred adequately and without major controversy.

Congratulations to Craig. A man at the top of his game and on top of the world.

He's had to pull out and is being replaced by Wayne Barnes.

Sorry.

I thought Joubert was brilliant last week, its only appropriate that the best referee in the World gets this appoinment.

Hope not many people take this thread seriously. As for joubert, he has his flaws like many others. Might be good enough to ref the final of some regional competition but not near proper professionals like Walsh or owens in my honest opinion

The two top SANZA referees are Walsh and Joubert, the advantage that Joubert has over Walsh is his ability to play "advantage" better, and his ability to make his "no interfernce" calls.

I'll wait for Matt Williams' response on the Irish rugby show The Breakdown. It's the one you can see on YouTube where he accuses Joubert of cheating without any mention of not only Barnes, but also Lawrence who just so happened to have the worst refereeing performance of the tournament which directly benefited Williams' team.

Sorry for bringing up that old chestnut Biltong.

Matt Williams just plays to his audience like a lot of pundits. He does have some good nuggets of info though.

Refereeing has gone down hill ever since Clive Norling retired

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8o9KyFxppY

Enjoy GG. Yeah he does but he gets a bit carried away. Francis doesn't cover himself in glory either-seems like he just grunts in agreement with whatever Williams has to say.

Francis annoys me as much as he annoys everyone really. Its a bit like they are playing good cop bad cop. Williams the calmer head and Francis the fiery one stoking the fires.

Williams the calmer head? ROFL

disneychilly wrote:I'll wait for Matt Williams' response on the Irish rugby show The Breakdown. It's the one you can see on YouTube where he accuses Joubert of cheating without any mention of not only Barnes, but also Lawrence who just so happened to have the worst refereeing performance of the tournament which directly benefited Williams' team.

Sorry for bringing up that old chestnut Biltong.

No worries mate, I am over that now. Beginning to care less and less about our rugby results, we have simply become the factory for the world to exploit.

disneychilly wrote:Williams the calmer head? ROFL

You dont think so? I think Francis does make the more outrageous comments.

Maybe Williams sticks in my craw a bit more due to his anti NZ tirades. Bias may be behind that on my part! But it's akin to comparing the suntans of a Scotsman and an Irishman.

GloriousEmpire wrote:We often criticise a referee when he gets it totally wrong but rarely sing their praises when they get it spectacularly right.

I'd like to correct that a little by congratulating Craig Joubert on his appointment to the super rugby final.

The world's #1 whistler has earned the respect of players, fans and his bosses alike with his consistent, clear and sensible interpretations throughout his career and is a role model others should aspire to.

In recent times he has handled the rugby World Cup final, where he did a splendid job although sparked the ire of some northern fans and journalists by bucking the trend of not penalising France in World Cup competitions featuring New Zealand.

Joubert was again center stage in Australia for the Lions tour where he controlled the only test to be referred adequately and without major controversy.

Congratulations to Craig. A man at the top of his game and on top of the world.

Are you still here?

"worlds top club clash"

Didnt realise Toulon, Leinster or Clermont were playing

Biltong wrote:

disneychilly wrote:I'll wait for Matt Williams' response on the Irish rugby show The Breakdown. It's the one you can see on YouTube where he accuses Joubert of cheating without any mention of not only Barnes, but also Lawrence who just so happened to have the worst refereeing performance of the tournament which directly benefited Williams' team.

Sorry for bringing up that old chestnut Biltong.

No worries mate, I am over that now. Beginning to care less and less about our rugby results, we have simply become the factory for the world to exploit.

What do you mean by that?

I think he just means that there is almost always a huge young saffa fresh off the production line coming to a team near you

Id be really annoyed if someone young and talented like CJ Stander was to leave Ireland to play for another county.

Worlds top franchise clash doesn't sound as good as "Club Clash" does it?

Sorry IronMike but I'd suggest that leinster are not a "Club" either.

tigerleghorn wrote:Worlds top franchise clash doesn't sound as good as "Club Clash" does it?

Sorry IronMike but I'd suggest that leinster are not a "Club" either.

Of course Leinster are a club just because they are a province doesnt mean they arent a club too. Never understood that, what defines a club? They play in a league and they arent a country. Does that in itself not make thema club?

If Leinster has a bar full of old men moaning about the 'flashy kids of today' when they should be outside watching said young'uns then yes, it's a club.

Cyril wrote:

Biltong wrote:

disneychilly wrote:I'll wait for Matt Williams' response on the Irish rugby show The Breakdown. It's the one you can see on YouTube where he accuses Joubert of cheating without any mention of not only Barnes, but also Lawrence who just so happened to have the worst refereeing performance of the tournament which directly benefited Williams' team.

Sorry for bringing up that old chestnut Biltong.

No worries mate, I am over that now. Beginning to care less and less about our rugby results, we have simply become the factory for the world to exploit.

What do you mean by that?

This is just the Bulls players lost this season.

Juandré Kruger, Zane Kirchner, Dewald Potgieter, Jacques Potgieter, Jano Vermaak, Chiliboy Ralepelle, Morné Steyn and Wynand Olivier.

Lions have lost JC Janse van Rensburg

Cheetahs lost Ebersohn

Stormers lost Andries Bekker and Habana

Sharks have lost JP Pietersen

These are just a few I can think of right now that is leaving for Europe and Japan, ten of our current Springboks will now be based overseas. So even our National team is being decimated.

Hey Billtong, good afternoon.

What do you think of John Plumtree and do you think he is a good apointment for the IRFU?

In fact let me show you this.

Lock
Juandre Kruger (first choice lock last year at no 5)
Andries Bekker (second best no 5 in SA )

Backrow
Francois Louw (First choice no 6 for Heyneke Meyer)
Jaques Potgieter (current Springbok)

Scrum half
Ruan Pienaar (Only experienced and currently first choice Springbok)
Jano Vermaak (current springbok)

Fly Half
Morne Steyn (First choice under Meyer)

Midfield
Wynand Olivier (not my choice but a springbok)

Wings
Habana (one of the top wings in the world)
JP Pietersen (Current Bok and voted Sa players player last year)

Fullback
Zane Kirchner (First choice under Meyer)

GunsGerms wrote:Hey Billtong, good afternoon.

What do you think of John Plumtree and do you think he is a good apointment for the IRFU?

I respect him greatly Guns, and he is definitely a great asset to have, I am very sorry that he is lost to SA.

We have 38 top level professional teams in Europe that each require a squad of about 35-40 players (England and France also have a fully professional 2nd tier). Each of these teams is probably able to pay as well as or a fair chunk better than the SA franchises and give a very good chance of high level European rugby. Add to this the fact that loads of these young players would relish the opportunity to simply visit Europe let alone get paid for it!

Simply put Bilt mate you're doomed! You chaps need to stop feeding your kids so much red meat, get em on a lettuce diet.

Biltong wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Hey Billtong, good afternoon.

What do you think of John Plumtree and do you think he is a good apointment for the IRFU?

I respect him greatly Guns, and he is definitely a great asset to have, I am very sorry that he is lost to SA.

Thanks. Sorry to further rub salt in thy wounds in that case.

Yeah mate, I have come to the same conclusion, if our Springboks aren't immune to the poaching then our quality of rugby is going to suffer greatly.

I checked a few months back when the HC was on, there were 43 South Africans playing HC on that weekend.

That is essentially a full squad plus a few to spare of Super rugby quality players.

Biltong wrote:Yeah mate, I have come to the same conclusion, if our Springboks aren't immune to the poaching then our quality of rugby is going to suffer greatly.

I checked a few months back when the HC was on, there were 43 South Africans playing HC on that weekend.

That is essentially a full squad plus a few to spare of Super rugby quality players.

That is mental. Something to be proud of in a weird, backhanded sort of way. Hopefully the academies up here will start churning out young European players at the right quality now. It's still very much the easy option for a team to lure away a young South African though.

Effervescing Elephant wrote:

Biltong wrote:Yeah mate, I have come to the same conclusion, if our Springboks aren't immune to the poaching then our quality of rugby is going to suffer greatly.

I checked a few months back when the HC was on, there were 43 South Africans playing HC on that weekend.

That is essentially a full squad plus a few to spare of Super rugby quality players.

That is mental. Something to be proud of in a weird, backhanded sort of way. Hopefully the academies up here will start churning out young European players at the right quality now. It's still very much the easy option for a team to lure away a young South African though.

I was fine with the fact that our senior players went overseas to go make their pension money, share their experience and knowledge, but now it has become a free for all, depending on the country or the clubs involved there are two goals these days.

Catch them young enough to qualify for residency and represent an adopted nation, or alternatively just bleed the system dry.

I find it hard to not get angry about this. In the meantime we are subsidising a tournament where we could pay our player more money.

I know this is capitalism at work, but SARU needs to wake the hell up. This cannot go on like this, we are losing young players who are certain boks for the future and now our national team is being plundered to the point where our first choice team is not even based in SA any more.

A rather pathetic state of affairs.

What's this now? Alain Rolland is reffing the Heineken cup final?  

Bit early for that decision?

Biltong wrote:

Effervescing Elephant wrote:

Biltong wrote:Yeah mate, I have come to the same conclusion, if our Springboks aren't immune to the poaching then our quality of rugby is going to suffer greatly.

I checked a few months back when the HC was on, there were 43 South Africans playing HC on that weekend.

That is essentially a full squad plus a few to spare of Super rugby quality players.

That is mental. Something to be proud of in a weird, backhanded sort of way. Hopefully the academies up here will start churning out young European players at the right quality now. It's still very much the easy option for a team to lure away a young South African though.

I was fine with the fact that our senior players went overseas to go make their pension money, share their experience and knowledge, but now it has become a free for all, depending on the country or the clubs involved there are two goals these days.

Catch them young enough to qualify for residency and represent an adopted nation, or alternatively just bleed the system dry.

I find it hard to not get angry about this. In the meantime we are subsidising a tournament where we could pay our player more money.

I know this is capitalism at work, but SARU needs to wake the hell up. This cannot go on like this, we are losing young players who are certain boks for the future and now our national team is being plundered to the point where our first choice team is not even based in SA any more.

A rather pathetic state of affairs.

That's the bit that worries me the most is the residency issue. Our academy is churning out u20 internationals at the moment as are a lot of the other prem academies. But how many of those will lose their shot at senior honours to a 3 year resident SH player. Worrying indeed. Although looking at the EPS at the moment it's much better than it has been in the not too distant past.

Starting to ramble now so will try to get some work done instead!

Biltong wrote:

Effervescing Elephant wrote:
That is mental. Something to be proud of in a weird, backhanded sort of way. Hopefully the academies up here will start churning out young European players at the right quality now. It's still very much the easy option for a team to lure away a young South African though.

I was fine with the fact that our senior players went overseas to go make their pension money, share their experience and knowledge, but now it has become a free for all, depending on the country or the clubs involved there are two goals these days.

Catch them young enough to qualify for residency and represent an adopted nation, or alternatively just bleed the system dry.

I find it hard to not get angry about this. In the meantime we are subsidising a tournament where we could pay our player more money.

I know this is capitalism at work, but SARU needs to wake the hell up. This cannot go on like this, we are losing young players who are certain boks for the future and now our national team is being plundered to the point where our first choice team is not even based in SA any more.

A rather pathetic state of affairs.

Is the answer for the SA club teams to join the heineken cup and maybe a European/SA super league?

GunsGerms wrote:

Biltong wrote:

Effervescing Elephant wrote:
That is mental. Something to be proud of in a weird, backhanded sort of way. Hopefully the academies up here will start churning out young European players at the right quality now. It's still very much the easy option for a team to lure away a young South African though.

I was fine with the fact that our senior players went overseas to go make their pension money, share their experience and knowledge, but now it has become a free for all, depending on the country or the clubs involved there are two goals these days.

Catch them young enough to qualify for residency and represent an adopted nation, or alternatively just bleed the system dry.

I find it hard to not get angry about this. In the meantime we are subsidising a tournament where we could pay our player more money.

I know this is capitalism at work, but SARU needs to wake the hell up. This cannot go on like this, we are losing young players who are certain boks for the future and now our national team is being plundered to the point where our first choice team is not even based in SA any more.

A rather pathetic state of affairs.

Is the answer for the SA club teams to join the heineken cup and maybe a European/SA super league?

I can't see how that will be a solution.

Your season does not coincide with ours, and you don't finish one comp at a time.

because SA players are all leaving to play for European clubs. Surely they wouldnt have to if the SA teams played in the cash rich environment of the HC? SA teams would be earning the same in TV deals etc. minus possibly the difference in local ticket prices.

There is more money in European rugby and SA players are leaving for financial reasons. SA teams have flirted with idea for years.

Crazy thought but maybe SA could set up an exiles team somewhere to compete in the Rabo for example and the HC, Spain for example of even Holland. No danger of them playing for either. The players could benefit from European wages yet SA could retain control over those players. Maybe SA needs to get creative. Become the exploiter and not the exploited.

How are you going to manage players based in another country?

Our rugby season (super xv) begins middle february, even at that time it is near impossible to play in Durban due to the heat and humidity.

Our Currie Cup ends in October.

So if you look at Europe with ther domestic season from Mune to August you guys don't play rugby.

Having a team based in Europe still doesn't addrees the problem.

So unless Europe starts to play one comp at a time somewhere in our timeslot (nov to feb is too hot to play here) it isn't feasable.

SA clearly needs another franchise and get a better share of the tv rights. Some of the young SA players left because they couldnt get a contract with the likes of the bulls etc (Claassens for instance who ended up in brive before making his way up to the french team).

Biltong wrote:How are you going to manage players based in another country?

Our rugby season (super xv) begins middle february, even at that time it is near impossible to play in Durban due to the heat and humidity.

Our Currie Cup ends in October.

So if you look at Europe with ther domestic season from Mune to August you guys don't play rugby.

Having a team based in Europe still doesn't addrees the problem.

So unless Europe starts to play one comp at a time somewhere in our timeslot (nov to feb is too hot to play here) it isn't feasable.

A rugby team is esentially a company. Surely if the Rabo and HC agreed entry to a SA team they could set up wherever they wanted. If the SARU owned that team as any team has ownership they could control it no matter where it is located. Granted though they would probably only be able to attract a crowd in the UK where there is a lot of South Africans but if the SARU is in control they could introduce contract clauses whereby no player can represent any other country other than SA. Irish teams do this to uncapped foreign players. The SARU could use it as a development team. I expect there is already a fan base of Saffers that support Saracens.

The difference between the Rabo and the AP for example is that the club teams are controlled by their national union and its already a multi national league.

Biltong, I brought your concerns up on another thread about compo for players, the sad thing is, what you are saying is actually happening more year on year. Thankfully, here in Wales we do not have any of your top players or best up and coming one's who are in line for being capped on residency, but I fear for the smaller nations, Fiji, Tonga, Samoa who cannot keep hold of their players and they could wind up playing for another country and the country who have put them where they are today get absolutely nothing for it.

GunsGerms wrote:

Biltong wrote:How are you going to manage players based in another country?

Our rugby season (super xv) begins middle february, even at that time it is near impossible to play in Durban due to the heat and humidity.

Our Currie Cup ends in October.

So if you look at Europe with ther domestic season from Mune to August you guys don't play rugby.

Having a team based in Europe still doesn't addrees the problem.

So unless Europe starts to play one comp at a time somewhere in our timeslot (nov to feb is too hot to play here) it isn't feasable.

A rugby team is esentially a company. Surely if the Rabo and HC agreed entry to a SA team they could set up wherever they wanted. If the SARU owned that team as any team has ownership they could control it no matter where it is located. Granted though they would probably only be able to attract a crowd in the UK where there is a lot of South Africans but if the SARU is in control they could introduce contract clauses whereby no player can represent any other country other than SA. Irish teams do this to uncapped foreign players. The SARU could use it as a development team. I expect there is already a fan base of Saffers that support Saracens.

The difference between the Rabo and the AP for example is that the club teams are controlled by their national union and its already a multi national league.

but you still haven't solved the scheduling, your suggestion is to have a team totally removed from the SA scene in essence, the players aren't playing their countrymen and can't therefor be measured against them.

LordDowlais wrote:Biltong, I brought your concerns up on another thread about compo for players, the sad thing is, what you are saying is actually happening more year on year. Thankfully, here in Wales we do not have any of your top players or best up and coming one's who are in line for being capped on residency, but I fear for the smaller nations, Fiji, Tonga, Samoa who cannot keep hold of their players and they could wind up playing for another country and the country who have put them where they are today get absolutely nothing for it.

yeah LD it is not only a South African problem, that's for sure, I think what got to me this time round is the number of current Springboks that are now moving abroad, it leaves us vritually with no experinced imternationall players.

The IRB will have to sort this out.

It is fine you compensate another country, but their own teams suffer a reduction in quality because of it. This is really going to hurt our domestic rugby.

Why do they need to play against their countrymen? There are already 35 Saffers not playing v their country men that are still getting picked. Piennar etc.

The bigger issue would be either funding or finding a stadium. However, where there is a will there is a way. Leinster dont own their own stadium they rent one and still make a profit. Most French teams also use municipal stadiums.

Look I know its a ridiculous idea but something should be done. What would you suggest?

Both London and New York have teams in the GAA for example presumably because of the amount of Irish diaspora traditionally lost to those cities. London did quite well this year.

Biltong wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Biltong, I brought your concerns up on another thread about compo for players, the sad thing is, what you are saying is actually happening more year on year. Thankfully, here in Wales we do not have any of your top players or best up and coming one's who are in line for being capped on residency, but I fear for the smaller nations, Fiji, Tonga, Samoa who cannot keep hold of their players and they could wind up playing for another country and the country who have put them where they are today get absolutely nothing for it.

yeah LD it is not only a South African problem, that's for sure, I think what got to me this time round is the number of current Springboks that are now moving abroad, it leaves us vritually with no experinced imternationall players.

The IRB will have to sort this out.

It is fine you compensate another country, but their own teams suffer a reduction in quality because of it. This is really going to hurt our domestic rugby.

Some teams/clubs/provinces/regions, what ever you want to call them, depend on their academy to keep them competitive, when the rich moneybag clubs start to notice that a certain club is producing top tallent hand over fist you start to see a trend in players leaving, two that spring straight to mind are the Dragons in Wales and the Newcastle Falcons in England, both of these teams have produced world class international players that no longer play for them because other clubs flutter theyr'e eyelashes with the promise of big bucks, if these clubs were compensated for loosing players they have invested a lot of money into then perhaps they could afford half decent replacements for the lost players and they would be able to compete a little better. Also, I do beleive that France are going to cap a few young Fijians before long as they have gained residency, and they are not even in their mid twenties yet.

I don't know Guns.

I think central contracting is the first step.

Have salary scales for players.

We need to find a way to protect the top 4 players in each position firstly, pay them R 3 000 000 a year if you have to. Even more if that is not enough.

Then we need to identify the future youngsters and put them on a proper salary scale to ensure they know they are in future plans.

We need more teams in Super Rugby to provide more players an opportunity, but OZ and NZ are fighting it.

We need to take our rightful revenue from Super Rugby and Rugby Championship and not split it three ways in equal amounts.

We need to have an A team that exposes players on a rotation basis to see who are the next best.

The reality is guys aren't going to stay around for long, so we need experienced players as back up.

Right now the cupboard on experienced alternatives are bare.

LordDowlais wrote:

Biltong wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Biltong, I brought your concerns up on another thread about compo for players, the sad thing is, what you are saying is actually happening more year on year. Thankfully, here in Wales we do not have any of your top players or best up and coming one's who are in line for being capped on residency, but I fear for the smaller nations, Fiji, Tonga, Samoa who cannot keep hold of their players and they could wind up playing for another country and the country who have put them where they are today get absolutely nothing for it.

yeah LD it is not only a South African problem, that's for sure, I think what got to me this time round is the number of current Springboks that are now moving abroad, it leaves us vritually with no experinced imternationall players.

The IRB will have to sort this out.

It is fine you compensate another country, but their own teams suffer a reduction in quality because of it. This is really going to hurt our domestic rugby.

Some teams/clubs/provinces/regions, what ever you want to call them, depend on their academy to keep them competitive, when the rich moneybag clubs start to notice that a certain club is producing top tallent hand over fist you start to see a trend in players leaving, two that spring straight to mind are the Dragons in Wales and the Newcastle Falcons in England, both of these teams have produced world class international players that no longer play for them because other clubs flutter theyr'e eyelashes with the promise of big bucks, if these clubs were compensated for loosing players they have invested a lot of money into then perhaps they could afford half decent replacements for the lost players and they would be able to compete a little better. Also, I do beleive that France are going to cap a few young Fijians before long as they have gained residency, and they are not even in their mid twenties yet.

What I don't get is why does every club/franchise/province not have their own academy. You just need to look at France in the U20 world cup to realise they aren't developing young players.

But England does, what happens to their youngsters?

Australia is starting to show a swing towards Pacific Islanders and Kiwi's in their Super Rugby squads as well and their representation at international level will soon see plenty of them. When you look at Australia's performance at the U20 world cup it is a woeful as France's.

I'm sure the OP is going to be very disappointed with the way this thread has changed. It started as a hand grenade lobbed in to the Northern Hemisphere camp but sadly for him nobody picked it up.

The concern expressed about nations losing their players abroad is much more interesting to read without any antagonism directed to any particular Nation/team

He might report us for changing the subject.  

I won't be able to handle the report though.

Biltong wrote:I don't know Guns.

I think central contracting is the first step.

Have salary scales for players.

We need to find a way to protect the top 4 players in each position firstly, pay them R 3  000 000 a year if you have to. Even more if that is not enough.

Then we need to identify the future youngsters and put them on a proper salary scale to ensure they know they are in future plans.

We need more teams in Super Rugby to provide more players an opportunity, but OZ and NZ are fighting it.

We need to take our rightful revenue from Super Rugby and Rugby Championship and not split it three ways in equal amounts.

We need to have an A team that exposes players on a rotation basis to see who are the next best.

The reality is guys aren't going to stay around for long, so we need experienced players as back up.

Right now the cupboard on experienced alternatives are bare.

Maybe grab the bull by the horns and actively seek to loan players to NH clubs on a contractual basis. Send them north for a year, they get the NH pay and experience the European scene but are contracted to the SARU that they return after 12 months. This stops any residency issues and encourages northern clubs to cultivate their own talents.