Jonathan Davies victim of Twitter abuse and threats after displacing Brian O'Driscoll in Lions side for deciding Test

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Jonathan Davies victim of Twitter abuse and threats after displacing Brian O'Driscoll in Lions side for deciding Test

The Scarlets and Wales centre was one of the standout performers during the 2-1 series success over the Wallabies and was given the vote to play alongside countryman Jamie Roberts in Sydney.

Coach Warren Gatland’s selection, which included nine Welshmen in the starting XV, gave rise to some serious criticism from the likes of Lions’ great Willie John McBride and former Ireland and Lions hooker Keith Wood.

The opposition to Gatland’s decision – particularly in relation to O’Driscoll – became further inflamed on Twitter, where a handful of supporters posted threatening messages towards Davies.

Davies said: “There was a lot of stuff on Twitter but I tried not to take too much notice of it. I had some good advice from players like Mike Phillips who just told me to ignore it.

“I was just grateful to have been given the opportunity to win the series. I did get a bit of verbal abuse and people wanting to break my legs and stuff. But I didn’t really care.


“I did feel like public enemy number one and there was a lot of pressure. But I felt like I had performed well under pressure.

“It was a great experience and I enjoyed every minute. Brian congratulated me afterwards and said well done. We were tight as a squad and Brian will be glad to have it on his CV.”

Davies will now turn his attention to helping the Scarlets re-establish themselves as a force in European club rugby.

“I have had six weeks offf and I’ve enjoyed it. I’ve been away on holiday and can’t wait to get back playing.”




Pretty disgusting stuff, rugby becoming more popular is attracting football like behaviour

Ifandorbut wrote:

Sin é wrote:



The Ray D'Arcy Show
11th July 2013 Part 1 (48 mins in).

Edit: Here are POC's exact words about missing the bus (I suppose you will be off vilifying him for his unprofessionalism now).

''Before the final test I was in Icebergs which is a life saving club overlooking Bondi having a few glasses of wine with friends - I nearly didn't make it back for the bus actually.''

The reason why he nearly missed the bus might be because he ''He found it frustrating because he had so little to do with the team.''

Objection My Lord, conjecture!

IAOB

The part in bold is a quote indicated by the '' ". Perhaps you should listen to the what he actually did say before objecting to anything

I think the endless raising of the BOD thing is a perfect example of why the Lions doesnt work at a fans level. At a team level it seems to, BOD showing a lot of style and grace in the decision, even if he thought it was wrong. Then he got out and supported the team.

For the fans, it was more because he was Irish that the comments, FB and twitter comments have prolonged this. And the fact that JD and Gatland arent.

If an Irish coach had selected an Irish centre in an Ireland side close to BODs ability in other respects ahead of BOD simply because he thought he would contribute more, this vitriole wouldnt be of this magnitude especially if the result was significantly as large as the third test one was.

In short time it would be accepted, even forgiven and yes, possibly even celebrated as a fantastic tactical move.

But because the side wasnt Irish, nor the coach nor the replacement, Irish fans feel THEY have been beaten, that they are not part of this win, when they actually are, in every single respect as part of the Lions setup.

For a coach to make a selection, complete a resounding and emphatic victory, yet be subject to such vitriole is proof that the Lions concept is flawed.

Well done folks...

Sin é wrote:

optimist wrote:

Sin é wrote:

optimist wrote:When Gareth Edwards was asked by the BBC to comment on Gatland's team for the third Test, he paid tribute to O' Driscoll as a great player and said he would have picked him.  He said we all know that BOD hasn't been playing at the level we know he's capable of but he's still a superb player.

However, Edwards didn't go down the route followed by some in verbally attacking Gatland's selection. Instead, he gave him the benefit of the doubt - this being before the Test was played.

He followed up with these words :

"When you are on tour with the Lions, you are all Lions.

On my first tour (1968), I think there were only two Welshmen in the Test side. I didn't realise that at the time.

And similarly in 1971. People make the point now that there were nine Welshmen in that Test team

But if you had asked me how many Welshmen were in that Lions side I wouldn't have been able to say.

I just know we won the series."

Edwards was a competitor and a half.  He didn't bother to mention the 1974 series, also won.

How is Edwards an authority on what its feels like to be a dropped Lion? As far as I recall he never was dropped. He has 10 Test caps anyway. More of this BOD should be happy he can put it on his cv bull.

Interesting that when Paul O'Connell was talking in that radio interview - he said they (Test Series) winners are in a special club.  Its obvious he didn't think of himself as a Test winner series even though he was injured and looked like being a certain starter if fit.

Edwards hasn't claimed to be "an authority on what it feels like to be a dropped Lion".

He has said what it means to be a Lion.  Having toured three times, twice with series wins - and never dropped, as you say -I think his opinion should be treated with as much seriousness as, say, Willie-John's.  The fact that Edwards isn't always giving his opinion to the press is a point in his favour.

You're a rugby fan, as I am.  But I'll never know what it feels like to play for the Lions, or be dropped for that matter - and neither will you.  Do you know how O'Driscoll "feels" - has he told you?

I'm not too sure what Edwards point is - all he says he didn't know there were only 2 Welsh players in the Test side. Then again, the Irish Coach hadn't selected 10 Irish players to start the Test match on the tour he was on in '64.  

I think you mean '74, not '64? The coach was Irish, Syd Millar, but Edwards didn't mention the '74 tour. The number of Welsh players in each of the 4 South Africa Tests was 6 - the same 2 forwards and the same 4 backs.

The coach on the tour to New Zealand in '71, which Edwards did mention, was Welsh, Carwyn James.

I don't know why you're not sure what Edwards's point is.  It's crystal clear.  The national make-up of Lions Test teams didn't concern him when he played and it doesn't concern him now.

Being a regular Cardiff fan, I often saw Edwards play from the year he joined the club in 1966 until he retired in 1978.  He was possibly the most competitive player, week in and week out, that I've seen.  His comment that "I just knew we won the series"
rings absolutely true.

optimist wrote:

Sin é wrote:

optimist wrote:

Sin é wrote:

optimist wrote:When Gareth Edwards was asked by the BBC to comment on Gatland's team for the third Test, he paid tribute to O' Driscoll as a great player and said he would have picked him.  He said we all know that BOD hasn't been playing at the level we know he's capable of but he's still a superb player.

However, Edwards didn't go down the route followed by some in verbally attacking Gatland's selection. Instead, he gave him the benefit of the doubt - this being before the Test was played.

He followed up with these words :

"When you are on tour with the Lions, you are all Lions.

On my first tour (1968), I think there were only two Welshmen in the Test side. I didn't realise that at the time.

And similarly in 1971. People make the point now that there were nine Welshmen in that Test team

But if you had asked me how many Welshmen were in that Lions side I wouldn't have been able to say.

I just know we won the series."

Edwards was a competitor and a half.  He didn't bother to mention the 1974 series, also won.

How is Edwards an authority on what its feels like to be a dropped Lion? As far as I recall he never was dropped. He has 10 Test caps anyway. More of this BOD should be happy he can put it on his cv bull.

Interesting that when Paul O'Connell was talking in that radio interview - he said they (Test Series) winners are in a special club.  Its obvious he didn't think of himself as a Test winner series even though he was injured and looked like being a certain starter if fit.

Edwards hasn't claimed to be "an authority on what it feels like to be a dropped Lion".

He has said what it means to be a Lion.  Having toured three times, twice with series wins - and never dropped, as you say -I think his opinion should be treated with as much seriousness as, say, Willie-John's.  The fact that Edwards isn't always giving his opinion to the press is a point in his favour.

You're a rugby fan, as I am.  But I'll never know what it feels like to play for the Lions, or be dropped for that matter - and neither will you.  Do you know how O'Driscoll "feels" - has he told you?

I'm not too sure what Edwards point is - all he says he didn't know there were only 2 Welsh players in the Test side. Then again, the Irish Coach hadn't selected 10 Irish players to start the Test match on the tour he was on in '64.  

I think you mean '74, not '64? The coach was Irish, Syd Millar, but Edwards didn't mention the '74 tour. The number of Welsh players in each of the 4 South Africa Tests was 6 - the same 2 forwards and the same 4 backs.

The coach on the tour to New Zealand in '71, which Edwards did mention, was Welsh, Carwyn James.

I don't know why you're not sure what Edwards's point is.  It's crystal clear.  The national make-up of Lions Test teams didn't concern him when he played and it doesn't concern him now.

Being a regular Cardiff fan, I often saw Edwards play from the year he joined the club in 1966 until he retired in 1978.  He was possibly the most competitive player, week in and week out, that I've seen.  His comment that "I just knew we won the series"
rings absolutely true.

' Do you know how O'Driscoll "feels" - has he told you?'

Good question. I wonder how he feels when in his absence the team completes a resounding victory. How would that feel?

Would it make me want to turn to Facebook or twitter and moan? that I should have been in a side that did so much better than when I was on the field.

How would that make me feel? I wonder...

optimist wrote:

Sin é wrote:

optimist wrote:

Sin é wrote:

optimist wrote:When Gareth Edwards was asked by the BBC to comment on Gatland's team for the third Test, he paid tribute to O' Driscoll as a great player and said he would have picked him.  He said we all know that BOD hasn't been playing at the level we know he's capable of but he's still a superb player.

However, Edwards didn't go down the route followed by some in verbally attacking Gatland's selection. Instead, he gave him the benefit of the doubt - this being before the Test was played.

He followed up with these words :

"When you are on tour with the Lions, you are all Lions.

On my first tour (1968), I think there were only two Welshmen in the Test side. I didn't realise that at the time.

And similarly in 1971. People make the point now that there were nine Welshmen in that Test team

But if you had asked me how many Welshmen were in that Lions side I wouldn't have been able to say.

I just know we won the series."

Edwards was a competitor and a half.  He didn't bother to mention the 1974 series, also won.

How is Edwards an authority on what its feels like to be a dropped Lion? As far as I recall he never was dropped. He has 10 Test caps anyway. More of this BOD should be happy he can put it on his cv bull.

Interesting that when Paul O'Connell was talking in that radio interview - he said they (Test Series) winners are in a special club.  Its obvious he didn't think of himself as a Test winner series even though he was injured and looked like being a certain starter if fit.

Edwards hasn't claimed to be "an authority on what it feels like to be a dropped Lion".

He has said what it means to be a Lion.  Having toured three times, twice with series wins - and never dropped, as you say -I think his opinion should be treated with as much seriousness as, say, Willie-John's.  The fact that Edwards isn't always giving his opinion to the press is a point in his favour.

You're a rugby fan, as I am.  But I'll never know what it feels like to play for the Lions, or be dropped for that matter - and neither will you.  Do you know how O'Driscoll "feels" - has he told you?

I'm not too sure what Edwards point is - all he says he didn't know there were only 2 Welsh players in the Test side. Then again, the Irish Coach hadn't selected 10 Irish players to start the Test match on the tour he was on in '64.  

I think you mean '74, not '64? The coach was Irish, Syd Millar, but Edwards didn't mention the '74 tour. The number of Welsh players in each of the 4 South Africa Tests was 6 - the same 2 forwards and the same 4 backs.

The coach on the tour to New Zealand in '71, which Edwards did mention, was Welsh, Carwyn James.

I don't know why you're not sure what Edwards's point is.  It's crystal clear.  The national make-up of Lions Test teams didn't concern him when he played and it doesn't concern him now.

Being a regular Cardiff fan, I often saw Edwards play from the year he joined the club in 1966 until he retired in 1978.  He was possibly the most competitive player, week in and week out, that I've seen.  His comment that "I just knew we won the series"
rings absolutely true.

I meant '68

On my first tour (1968), I think there were only two Welshmen in the Test side. I didn't realise that at the time.

And similarly in 1971. People make the point now that there were nine Welshmen in that Test team

But if you had asked me how many Welshmen were in that Lions side I wouldn't have been able to say.

I just know we won the series."

Ronnie Dawson was the coach and Tom Kiernan the captain. In the squad were 11 Welsh, 8 English, 7 Irish, 7 Scots.

Edwards opinion is valid for someone who has never had to be just a squad player. How about asking some of the squad players who didn't get to play a test whether they would be putting Lions Test winner on their cv? Easy to talk up the team ethos when you are a test starter.

In that interview, Paul O'Connell said that it was very different to his experiences of not starting with either Munster or Ireland.

Both Woodward & Henry were hammered for dividing the squads into dirtrackers & Test starters. Gatland seemingly has done exactly the same thing.

edit: Someone did an article in one of the papers as to whether it mattered if the Lions won or lost, would the 'brand' be damaged. They came to the conclusion that it didn't make any difference win or lose as when they lost the travelling Lions fans just partied anyway and not winning wasn't really an issue.

It's simultaneously hilarious/scary how Sin's brain appears to work. This has been a really enjoyable read.

Sin e

"Both Woodward and Henry were hammered for dividing the squad into dirtrackers and Test starters."  They were, and both lost the series.

You're hammering Gatland although he won the series. It's also in dispute as to whether he divided the squad as Woodward and Henry did.

Why did the Lions go to Australia? To win the series.  If you think the players and coaches on tour didn't have that as their overriding aim, you don't know much about sport.

Travelling fans partying when the team lost a game? Lions fans have done that since I started following rugby in the mid-'50s. They're on holiday and they've spent a lot of money to be with like-minded rugby fans. Why should they sit in the hotel and mope? A journalist flying out with all expenses paid might not quite understand that.

Of course a player not selected for a Test will be disappointed, especially when said journalist and others have nominated him as captain for the game.  

But some fans and journalists have given little credit to O'Driscoll as a man, feeling they have to moan on his behalf that he wasn't in the final Test. Before the match they might have had a point, but 6 weeks later with a record score in the game and the series won?  That's moaning for the sake of it.

I really wonder what O'Driscoll thinks about the line taken by his so-called defenders.  He took it like a man - why can't they?

optimist wrote:Sin e

"Both Woodward and Henry were hammered for dividing the squad into dirtrackers and Test starters."  They were, and both lost the series.

You're hammering Gatland although he won the series. It's also in dispute as to whether he divided the squad as Woodward and Henry did.

Why did the Lions go to Australia? To win the series.  If you think the players and coaches on tour didn't have that as their overriding aim, you don't know much about sport.

Travelling fans partying when the team lost a game? Lions fans have done that since I started following rugby in the mid-'50s. They're on holiday and they've spent a lot of money to be with like-minded rugby fans. Why should they sit in the hotel and mope? A journalist flying out with all expenses paid might not quite understand that.

Of course a player not selected for a Test will be disappointed, especially when said journalist and others have nominated him as captain for the game.  

But some fans and journalists have given little credit to O'Driscoll as a man, feeling they have to moan on his behalf that he wasn't in the final Test. Before the match they might have had a point, but 6 weeks later with a record score in the game and the series won?  That's moaning for the sake of it.

I really wonder what O'Driscoll thinks about the line taken by his so-called defenders.  He took it like a man - why can't they?

I think the difference in opinion here is that you (and most Welsh supporters funnily enough) think that winning is everything - the end justifies the means. Most other people don't. I thought it was particularly nasty of Gatland to mislead Brian by having him at the Press Conference during the week of the Test match.  

Lots of people who would be close to O'Driscoll have spoken on how he feels. Pretty much everyone of them said he was gutted. (see below). Ronan O'Gara referred to it as a 'right kick in the bollox'. Young Davies probably could learn something from O'Driscoll and stop moaning because everyone on the planet were not delighted about his selection over Brian O'Driscoll. I still can't believe that he said Brian O'Driscoll can put being on a winning lions tour on his CV, considering how he was around Brian and must have known how difficult it was for him.

Ronan O'Gara wrote:I rang Brian on Wednesday. He was choked. We’d be close. We’ve spent the same time on the Irish squad and we’d have compared notes on everything from contracts to opposition. I just didn’t feel great all day. You get that feeling after soldiering with a fella for 125 caps.

It’s the greatest kick in the bollix he could ever get. Horrific. He has to live with that now. There will be a captain’s meeting today and he was probably preparing a speech for that from Monday. And then he gets the tap on the shoulder from Warren. For around 10 seconds every possible thought is going through Drico’s head. Is he going telling me I’m captain? At least in my case, I knew Deccie wasn’t ringing me in the Opera House to tell me I’d been made Irish captain! But for him it was a live possibility. He is thinking, ‘there is a God, what will be will be, I’m getting the chance at 1-1, in Sydney Football Stadium, where it all began in 2001 with the Lions, it’s written in the stars’.

And then... it’s whipped from under him.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/columnists/ronan-ogara/ronan-ogara-ronan-ogara-jigsaw-pieces-are-falling-off-the-board-not-into-place-236084.html

Paul O'Connell wrote:O'Connell told Today FM: "I was shocked and disappointed.

"I thought Brian was playing well. If you look at the first two Tests there wasn't a whole lot of quality ball given to the backline."
Paul O'Connell
"After playing so long with him you end up being a bit of a fan. I wouldn't say it took the gloss off it a little bit for me, but it probably did."

He added: "It's a shame he wasn't out there. Even going on the bus with him; I was injured and there were other guys resigned to the fact that they weren't on the team.

"It just felt wrong that he was on the bus with the non-playing squad, not in the 23."

As for the Lions touring ethos. Despite it being a winning tour, the only players I've heard saying how great it was are Welsh - totally different to the last losing tour where even the the dropped players said it was a great tour.

theres why optimist...huge chips

This Paul O'Connor is starting to sound like hes got big tickets on himself.

Yeah but so what about what Paul Oconnor thought.
He aint tasked with selecting a side to win the series. Its sentiments like that that cloud the whole process.

Taylorman wrote:Yeah but so what about what Paul Oconnor thought.
He aint tasked with selecting a side to win the series. Its sentiments like that that cloud the whole process.

So whats wrong with expressing a fairly educated opinion (3 Lions Tours, captaining one) after the event? Same with Woody & Willie John McBride - they've been there and done that - they actually 'demist' the whole process.

Nothing wrong with it Sin, but the timing contributes to the farce and you quote it as though its somehow relevant as an argument for BOD selection. Pathetic. Sure its disappointing....we...get...that. Doesnt make it right.

Optimist made the point that since Brian O'Driscoll took it like a man (nothing to do with whether he was selected or not), it was seemingly the right decision or something and the rest of us should shut up about it. Davies comment about having it on his cv is just rubbing Poopie in his face and what Paul O'Connell and Ronan O'Gara say about his dropping and how humiliating it would have been illustrates that perfectly.

i really dont know what you getting at sin . are you saying Bods two Irish rugby colleagues are a bit gutted for him because he didnt play . so what do you want an apology off gatland because he dropped one player .

jimmyinthewell68 wrote:i really dont know what you getting at sin . are you saying  Bods  two Irish rugby colleagues are a  bit gutted for him because he didnt play . so what do you want    an apology off gatland because he  dropped  one  player .

I'm saying that his two Irish colleagues know him better than anyone here and as professional rugby players how meaningless it would be to be told as competitive people 'you can put it on your cv'.

If there were a fourth test after that third one...who would be selected? Why shouldnt JD celebrate it as part of his cv anyway. He was directly involved in a Lions series win.Are you saying he should temper one of lifes best moments so BOD doesnt feel so bad? man this is getting worse.

Enjoy the win sin. JD, BOD, you and Welsh fans all had a victory. the same victory. But you choose to spoil it with dribble.

Sin E, Jimmy asks a good question what is it that you are now seeking? is it an apology, or what?

i dont think jd2 meant it sarcastically . i thought Bod himself said something similar

Sin wants the entire rugby world to go down on their knees and beg BOD forgiveness for unnecessarily ruining an otherwise fantastic career and for Gatland to take 1000 lashes for his criminal act in selecting a winning side.

Thats from what I've read might go close to what Sin is after...though he probably wants more.

Taylorman wrote:Sin wants the entire rugby world to go down on their knees and beg BOD forgiveness for unnecessarily ruining an otherwise fantastic career and for Gatland to take 1000 lashes for his criminal act in selecting a winning side.

Thats from what I've read might go close to what Sin is after...though he probably wants more.

i think they should set the whole match up again with Bod playing and is allowed to score the winning try . jd2 must clean is boots after

Perhaps Gatty should select BOD for wales.score the winning try and JD2 and the boots.

optimist wrote:
I really wonder what O'Driscoll thinks about the line taken by his so-called defenders.  He took it like a man - why can't they?

You are missing the point, I don't care how O'Driscoll feels.

As a fan I am entitled to my own opinion. As a Lions supporter I expect to see the best players play, on merit, and we didn't see that on this tour. The fact that we won due to the poor quality of the opposition is neither here nor there.

Maybe winning is the be all and end all for some but if the Lions isn't about the best players of the home nations coming together then what is it about?

Is it now just a CV filler and an opportunity for average or out of sorts players to get carried over the line against SH opposition by better ones?  

There's guys on this tour who are fully deserving of the accolade of being a test winning Lion - Adam Jones, AW Jones, Cole, North, 1/2 Penny, O'Brien, Roberts, Sexton and few others -  but there are some others who can count their lucky stars that they have friends in high places and Davies is one of those.

The reason this keeps dragging on, by the media, is because there is a story behind this in that O'Driscoll's omission was both a surprise and controversial.

Gatland brought this on, know one else. If you decide to drop a player for an inferior one in such a big game then controversy around that isn't going to go away because you've won the game.

Davies supporters can keep trying to rewrite history if they wish but there is a reason 99% of people expected BOD to start the 3rd test- because he is both better than Davies and was playing better than Davies at the time. No amount of twisting things can change this, the stats and footage are there for all to see.

For the record I'm also bitter that Henson didn't start the first test in 2005.

jimmyinthewell68 wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Sin wants the entire rugby world to go down on their knees and beg BOD forgiveness for unnecessarily ruining an otherwise fantastic career and for Gatland to take 1000 lashes for his criminal act in selecting a winning side.

Thats from what I've read might go close to what Sin is after...though he probably wants more.

              i think they should set the whole match up again with Bod playing  and is allowed to score the  winning try .   jd2 must clean is boots after

good point...I'll start on that one then. Make sure they bring the trophy back though just in case the result changes...

rodders wrote:For the record I'm also bitter that Henson didn't start the first test in 2005.

I know all this is a bit over the top Rodders...no harm intended. Things happen...poor old oz have lost again...can they beat the boks?

rodders wrote:For the record I'm also bitter that Henson didn't start the first test in 2005.

Rodders, thats 8 years ago, I can hardly remember the game thats the subject to this thread.

Davies started the test series on merit, he played well in the warm up games, was average at best in the first 2 test as was BOD, to be fair to Davies he was playing out of position, imagine if BOD had been asked to play at 12 and didn't perform that well, would people have been as critical of him as they have been of Davies?

gaww dont start buzz...theres thousands of pages written here on that one previously...

aucklandlaurie wrote:

rodders wrote:For the record I'm also bitter that Henson didn't start the first test in 2005.

 Rodders, thats 8 years ago, I can hardly remember the game thats the subject to this thread.

also shane Williams or is my memory wrong

Really? I haven't gone back and looked that far . It just wrecks me that people believe BOD should be shown more respect than other players in the squad due to his past achievements.

Winning is the only thing, then after you worry about the style in which you won. But only after celebrating the win, long after....

Biltong wrote:Winning is the only thing, then after you worry about the style in which you won. But only after celebrating the win, long after....

So Biltong whats the acceptable length of time for bitching about the selections after the game has been played and won? or is there no set precedent?

this thread could last until the next lions tour and we would still get no where . it be interesting when a few rugby autobiographies come out about the lions .

Laurie it works like this.

You may only complain until 7 days after a match about selections.

You may complain about tactics employed and mistakes made for the period of the tournament.

You may complain about the referee for 30 days.

That is the proper thing to do.

Occasionally you may bring up history, but merely as a statistical factor.

 

Look Sin, the following passage is all you need to know. Now move on.

Centre Jonathan Davies says coach Warren Gatland's approach to the victorious 2013 British and Irish Lions tour cannot be criticised.

Former Lions hooker Keith Wood criticised Gatland's handling of the team in Australia and the dropping of Brian O'Driscoll for the third Test.

Davies played in all three Tests in the 2-1 series win over Australia.

"You cannot argue with Gats; he delivered a Lions series victory," said Wales and Scarlets star Davies.

Wood called Gatland's decision to drop former Lions and Ireland captain O'Driscoll for the third Test against the Wallabies in July "a terrible mistake".

Without the Ireland centre, the Lions won the Test 41-16, and the series 2-1.

Asked if he regretted the strength of his criticism, Wood said: "I don't, no."

Davies, who partnered fellow Wales centre Jamie Roberts in the Lions midfield, wore the number 13 jersey usually reserved for O'Driscoll in the first and second Tests against the Wallabies.

The new Scarlets joint-captain, who is out of contract at Parc y Scarlets in the summer, respects Wood's opinion but believes Gatland's approach delivered a first Lions Test series win for 16 years.

"It is his [Wood's] own opinion and that is what he thinks," said Davies.

"But it's a results-based game and we won the series - and that was the most important thing.

"The team won the game. It doesn't bother me and I am getting back to work now and I will just concentrate on myself."

Davies, 25, was one of 10 Welshman selected by Gatland in the Lions side which recorded the win in Sydney.

jimmyinthewell68 wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

rodders wrote:For the record I'm also bitter that Henson didn't start the first test in 2005.

 Rodders, thats 8 years ago, I can hardly remember the game thats the subject to this thread.

                   also shane Williams or is my memory wrong

Good shout. Justice for Shane!

Laurie no! Oz can't beat the boks!

Biltong wrote:Laurie it works like this.

You may only complain until 7 days after a match about selections.

You may complain about tactics employed and mistakes made for the period of the tournament.

You may complain about the referee for 30 days.

That is the proper thing to do.

Occasionally you may bring up history, but merely as a statistical factor.

 

Thanks Biltong, I was always told that you cant play the game if you dont know the rules. but what about poison administering waitresses in Pretoria?

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Biltong wrote:Laurie it works like this.

You may only complain until 7 days after a match about selections.

You may complain about tactics employed and mistakes made for the period of the tournament.

You may complain about the referee for 30 days.

That is the proper thing to do.

Occasionally you may bring up history, but merely as a statistical factor.

 

 Thanks Biltong, I was always told that you cant play the game if you dont know the rules. but what about poison administering waitresses in Pretoria?

Simple, eat the food your personal arranged chef is supposed to make for you, and don't go and eat out on the eve of a test match.  

Sin e

You wrote in reply to me : "I think the difference in opinion here is that you (and most Welsh supporters funnily enough) think that winning is everything - the end justifies the means. Most people don't."

I said that the overriding aim of players on a Lions tour was to win the series. I did not say "the end justifies the means" - that's something you've slipped in to misrepresent my view, and the view of "most Welsh supporters", for whom you've apparently decided to speak.

If Gatland had picked one or two people and instructed them to deliberately injure the opposition by any means - boots, fists, teeth, etc - I would never support that. And I agree that "most people" would not.

But your gripe is that he didn't pick O'Driscoll - that seems to be your definition of "by any means".  Well, not selecting a certain player, even one who's been as good as O'Driscoll, is something I and anyone else are entitled to support or ignore without being accused of - what exactly?

rodders wrote:

optimist wrote:
I really wonder what O'Driscoll thinks about the line taken by his so-called defenders.  He took it like a man - why can't they?

There's guys on this tour who are fully deserving of the accolade of being a test winning Lion - Adam Jones, AW Jones, Cole, North, 1/2 Penny, O'Brien, Roberts, Sexton and few others -  but there are some others who can count their lucky stars that they have friends in high places and Davies is one of those.

Davies supporters can keep trying to rewrite history if they wish but there is a reason 99% of people expected BOD to start the 3rd test- because he is both better than Davies and was playing better than Davies at the time. No amount of twisting things can change this, the stats and footage are there for all to see.

The first point is genuinely mental, JD2 has been the best 13 out of all the Home Nations on the international stage for the last two seasons. The notion that somehow Davies got his place on the tour or in the Test side based solely on who he knows is an absolute joke. The fact is, behind the four centres taken, there was very little in the form of genuine contenders.

The second is complete conjecture. It's a shame that one of the best rugby players since professionalism is having to be analysed so deeply when his career is winding down, but I'd say you can no longer comprehensively state BOD is a better and more effective international player than Davies. As we've clearly seen in this thread, the footage of the tour has led many to believe Davies was playing marginally better than BOD, rather than the other way around. Don't try to pass it off as fact.

I think the crux of the opposition, and it seems to come mostly from a few Irish posters, on this thread is really symbolic of the Tour in general. There have been complaints it wasn't as good as 2009. Yeah, I'd probably agree. There's not quite the same feeling as supporting your country when supporting the Lions, a slight neutrality to it. In South Africa, against the much favoured world champions, the big, bad boys who played ugly rugby and tried to beat the Lions up, it was easy to get behind them. The Lions upheld a certain barbarian spirit by moving the ball about, and there was a good mix of three nations (sorry Scotland) in the Test sides. For a true neutral, it would have been very easy to support the Lions, they were the plucky and more attractive underdog. Even McGeechan was coach.

It's clearly very different this time. The coach was the current Welsh coach, and a character who polarises opinion and certainly seems to have a sort of blindness to his management and, consequently, many detractors. The Lions were playing an Australian side in serious decline, a side who played the more attractive rugby, and, if we're honest, even with the nature of the Tour, the Lions were favourites to win the series. For the Irish, the non-selection of Rory Best clearly set the tone of the Tour for the kind of supporter who sees the Lions as an opportunity to count how many players their nation gets in the side, and uses it as an opportunity to sulk or gloat. The Lions played the standard Gatland plan of attritional rugby, probably could and should have won the series 3-0 with the talent they had, but they did not. Which means it doesn't have the fairytale status or the drama of the 2009 tour.



One of my favourite claims in this thread, which I can't be bothered to go back and find (far too distressing to read this again), was a statement along the lines of 'no player is exceptional or deserving of different selection criteria', before explaining why BOD was exactly that and shouldn't have been dropped even though he wasn't playing particularly well.

Another thing, epitomised by Sin, is seeing things in basic, childish black and white. It's either "if Roberts and Davies were selected as a combination, why then weren't Heaslip, Murray, and Sexton". I know he's winding up, but it's really tiresome, and there seems to be genuine belief behind his statements, and other posters, about how BOD has somehow been treated disgustingly (a personal insult to 'lead him to believe he would be captain'? What? How did Gatland do this, and if he did, how do you know? By having him at a press conference? Yeah, that's a decisive statement).

Could it be that, as a coach, Gatland doesn't have one fundamental selection criteria, which you seem to be trying to hold him to? He picked on form in the sense that neither centre was playing particularly well, but Davies had had a better tour overall (I realise some will disagree, but please don't get angry and it state it as 'fact' that the missed tackle stat means BOD was playing better). He picked on reputation, knowing that Roberts, clearly the first choice midfielder and integral to the plan, was familiar and worked well with Davies. He presumably used the special intuition which makes him a world class coach, and us posters on an internet forum. And he certainly had reams of information and training sessions on which to base his decision, which we don't. Where the likes of Lydiate and Bowe were selected on the basis of reputation, which, in the former's case, worked out very well, Gatland also selected someone like Tom Youngs on, arguably, form alone; who believed he would be the starting hooker prior to the Tour? He made, as he stated, "judgement calls" on every player. Where clearly an Irish 8-9-10 axis would have been familiar with one another, familiarity was not a big enough factor in the selection. Arguably, it wasn't also for 12-13, but you must just realise that life isn't 'fair' sometimes, and the fact that Gatland was Welsh coach, and knew that, with only a few days to implement any plans, by turning to those he knew best, and those who knew him best, he gave himself the greatest opportunity for the players to implement the 'Gatland plan'. Those players were mostly Welsh. If you see the Lions as Home Nations top trumps, obviously you're going to be upset by this, but ultimately they won the Tour, and the most important player in that third Test was an English loosehead, a performance celebrated greatly by Lions supporters of all nationality.

But I sense you've probably heard, and know but refuse to accept, that BOD was legitimately dropped on rugby grounds alone. It's difficult to accept when a legend is coming to the end, and you can be blind to their failings; Shane Williams was in clear decline in the 2011 6N and World Cup, but few Welsh fans would have advocated his dropping, because he could still turn a game and is a Welsh legend. Very similar situation to BOD.

The fact that O'Gara feels the need to pipe up is fairly meaningless. Yes, it was surprising. I thought BOD's leadership qualities would have put him in the side with two captains injured, but clearly Gatland felt he was inhibiting the backline, and his seniority was in fact detrimental in the Tests (information we could not have gleaned from watching the games alone- he might know more than us!). It also ruined the fairytale Lions end for BOD, which is a shame, but he still has the chance to end it well with Leinster and Ireland. All of which in no way affects whether it was right to drop him, but still.

POC's lateness merely strikes of poor professionalism. Gatland clearly likes obedient lieutenants as captains, i.e. Warburton, but that doesn't mean, because you feel marginalised, you fail to care about the tour any more. Even in professionalism, sucking up any personal gripe for the sake of the team ought to be done, especially for a player as experienced and influential as POC.


Criticising JD2 for responding to a reporter is ridiculous. Also, there's a difference between a public statement and a statement made in public. Twitter is a very serious medium; are you not aware of the increasing prosecutions due to something tweeted? In case you don't read the news, threatening people on twitter is a very serious thing, and not something 'people over 10 years old' should simply dismiss. Pathetic to try and criticise JD2 over this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23485610

Look it's as simple as this:

Ireland played Wales in the 6 nations and Wales lost, no ifs or buts about it, they were beat in the first half and this all came from a Zebo try set up but GOD himself (jokes) who ironically enough went around Davis to make the pass that set up the try. He then went on to score a try of his own at the start of the second half and people say he's past it?? Lets remember it was Wales he scored against so if he's past it where does that leave Wales?

Lets remember, Ireland were also the only team to beat Wales in the 6 nations but funny enough the year before Wales beat Ireland when BOD was injured, starting to see the picture?

BOD had been playing well as was Davis but to say Davis was better when A) he let the try in during the second test that cost us the match and B) couldn't get the better of BOD in the 6 nations is just a very Welsh assessment

From an Irish perspective we were angry because BOD was playing well (if not better than Davis) this was his last and only chance to win on a Lions tour (Davis will have more tours) and because Gatland never even put him on the bench!! This may or may not have been personal but one thing is for sure Gatland knew with the front row he had out on the day that the Lions would win, so having BOD at 13 or JD at 13 would not have made any real difference. What got to me was how Gatland saw fit to pick one of his own player over someone who has given more to the game than most and who deserved to play.

Come the 2014 6 nations I’m sure BOD will prove it just like he did the last time him and JD played against each other  

O dear!

slane wrote:people say he's past it?? Lets remember it was Wales he scored against so if he's past it where does that leave Wales?

He's not past it, but he's certainly in decline. Do you really not understand how one incident of his genius doesn't mean he is the best selection any longer? As I've stated above, he'll still be capable of pulling off wonderful moments of creativity, because he won't lose his vision or foresight, but he will lose his pace, power, tackling ability etc.

You just seem to want to turn it, as seems to be common in this thread, about Wales, namely anti-Wales. Bore off. It would have been Simon Shaw's last chance for a Lions tour, perhaps he deserved a call up? Or when we were seeing props get injured, call big Phil Vickery out of retirement? Starting to see the flaw in your logic? Sentiment has no place in professional rugby, and Gatland is one of the least likely to be bowed by any pressure, be it from the media or from some fictional script of BOD's career.

slane wrote:Gatland knew with the front row he had out on the day that the Lions would win

He is God...

I also believe that Jon Davies is no more 'his' player than BOD was when in the role as Lions coach. If Gatland was picking his boys, why was Cuthbert dropped after scoring a wonderful try in the first Test, for Bowe, who had done little to prove his form or fitness? Again, the only issue amongst Irish fans is their talisman is seen to be equal to the players he is up against, and perhaps there's an element of reluctance, as you've displayed, to accept his career is nearly over.

slane wrote:having BOD at 13 or JD at 13 would not have made any real difference

Get over it then. If you want to give him a jolly Irish send off, win the Grand Slam for him.

slane do you have selective memory like Sin? BOD was bunk after the Wales game, culminating in his most shocking game of the decade (the final match versus Italy). Wales have been beating Ireland home and away with/without BOD, there is NO correlation there.

Oh dear sounds about right.

The Saint wrote:Wales have been beating Ireland home and away with/without BOD, there is NO correlation there.

Oh dear sounds about right.

Actually if you look at the last 10 matches its 5 a piece between Ireland and Wales, most of Irelands wins coming in Cardiff and most of Wales coming in Dublin.

The method was with BOD in the team, according to slane Ireland don't lose to Wales with him playing.

slane wrote:Look it's as simple as this:

Ireland played Wales in the 6 nations and Wales lost, no ifs or buts about it, they were beat in the first half and this all came from a Zebo try set up but GOD himself (jokes) who ironically enough went around Davis to make the pass that set up the try. He then went on to score a try of his own at the start of the second half and people say he's past it?? Lets remember it was Wales he scored against so if he's past it where does that leave Wales?

Lets remember, Ireland were also the only team to beat Wales in the 6 nations but funny enough the year before Wales beat Ireland when BOD was injured, starting to see the picture?

BOD had been playing well as was Davis but to say Davis was better when A) he let the try in during the second test that cost us the match and B) couldn't get the better of BOD in the 6 nations is just a very Welsh assessment

From an Irish perspective we were angry because BOD was playing well (if not better than Davis) this was his last and only chance to win on a Lions tour (Davis will have more tours) and because Gatland never even put him on the bench!! This may or may not have been personal but one thing is for sure Gatland knew with the front row he had out on the day that the Lions would win, so having BOD at 13 or JD at 13 would not have made any real difference. What got to me was how Gatland saw fit to pick one of his own player over someone who has given more to the game than most and who deserved to play.  

Come the 2014 6 nations I’m sure BOD will prove it just like he did the last time him and JD played against each other  

Its not really as simple as that. The whole point is HOW this disappointment has been communicated- through organised and personal attacks on both the coach and players concerned...that goes beyond disappointment.

Taylorman wrote:

jimmyinthewell68 wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Sin wants the entire rugby world to go down on their knees and beg BOD forgiveness for unnecessarily ruining an otherwise fantastic career and for Gatland to take 1000 lashes for his criminal act in selecting a winning side.

Thats from what I've read might go close to what Sin is after...though he probably wants more.

              i think they should set the whole match up again with Bod playing  and is allowed to score the  winning try .   jd2 must clean is boots after

good point...I'll start on that one then. Make sure they bring the trophy back though just in case the result changes...

Taylorman, why are you so bitter when it comes to O'Driscoll? Nobody is looking for an apology, thats just ridiculous.