This is why Overseas players should not be selected for the springboks.

This report shows exactly the attitude Billionaires with big cheque books have and why these overseas players should not play for SA. In the middle of our away leg to Argentina, Australia and New Zealand with the two most important away matches of the calendar year ahead of us, the preparations with Habana comes to a stand still as Mourad Boudjellal demands his pound of flesh.

scrum wrote:Springboks star Bryan Habana will make his Top 14 debut for Toulon against Grenoble on August 31.

Reports last week claimed Toulon supremo Mourad Boudjellal had contacted the South Africa management asking for Habana to be available for the French league clash. The game falls on a weekend when there are no Rugby Championship matches and Habana will return to France after facing Argentina on Saturday evening.

"Bryan will play at Grenoble and it'll be a great gift for the Grenoble treasurer," Boudjellal said. "Bryan is paid by the club, it's normal that he comes just like all the staff if he is asked."

Add to this the fact that Fourie du Preez isn't available to play the away leg for the Springboks.

all french based South African players are returning to the T14 this weekend (including morne steyne, kruger, steenkamp, etc).
I agree it's nonsense for players to travel such distances in a week time just for one game... Boudjedal is a well known WUM over here and likes controversy with a dodgy sense of humour so would always take his words not too seriously.

It's ok Bilts the fine people of Ulster have granted Ruan the weekend off .

We are going to get hammered by Australia on the 7th.

It is the reason ALL countries should not pick Overseas based players,the IRB Country before
Club rule is seldom enforced by them.Most players returning suffer the NH disease need 2 yrs
in quarantine to get back up to speed.[IF they ever do.

two things

firstly, Bilt, dont you worry. you will not be hammered by Oz. You'll stangle the life out of them.  They are not the team the once were!

Secondly, don't tar all "overseas" clubs with the same brush! The clubs that mess things up are the French and the English! As has been said, the good people at Ulster have let Pinnaar go! Also, I'm sure you will have players who are "overseas" in NZ or Oz and those clubs would let them go when needed.
The players themselves need to look at thier own contracts and if they sign a contract where they cannot be releised by thier club, then its thier fault for signing.  But don't do a NZ and ban ALL overseas players from selection. Thats just silly!

Tigertattie, the problem is it doesn't matter that some clubs observe the rules of the IRB and other don't, the point is in the middle of our most important tour of the year, we now have to split our team up and cannot prepare in the same manner as OZ.

That alone apart from having home advantage puts them way ahead of us.

Don't mind Rodders. The only reason they are not to concerned with Pienaar is that they are AWAY to Leicester in a FRIENDLY.

We are the real teacher's pets. We are not asking for Kirchner despite being at home to Northampton. Despite the fact that he is only holding tackle bags for you lads. And also the fact that Biltong for one would happily let him go and the further away the better.

SA management would probably bebefit from him having a game or 2 under his belt to keep him sharp.

Er...who says that some are ignoring IRB rules? The Southern Hemisphere release window includes 6 weeks that cover the games. The other weekends are not part of the international window. If you don't like it don't select those players (as you already suggested) or petition the IRB to extend the window. However the clubs are not doing any thing wrong and not breaking any IRB regulations.

I am not saying they are doing anything wrong, I am merely strengthening my case as to why we should not select overseas players

If you don't select overseas players, would that have meant Habana would have stayed in SA to play for the Boks?  He would still have gone after the paycheck.  At least this way you get to play the guy.  If Habana (just off a long haul flight relaxing in uber-premium class) is still your best option on the wing, then play him.  If it is a 50:50 call with a local fella who is fresher and you believe can match his performance on the field, then don't select him.

No, he would still have left and Meyer wouldhave given someone else a chance to stake a claim.

By the way Habana has dropped 3 out of 4 passes, his mind doesn't even seem to be in the game.

Ugh, God, I hate Boudjellal and Toulon.

Anyway if you don't pick Habana because of this (which I would agree with) you're still just picking the guy you would pick if you decided not to pick overseas players in the first place. Habana has won everything with the Boks, I can't imagine he would turn down the overseas move because he does need a new challenge. So I don't get how it's THAT disruptive if the alternative is just no Habana whatsoever.

What I find really, really strange is that the IRFU and WRU have managed to get players who are heading to play in France to agree additional time off for training camps etc. in their contracts and the SARU haven't.

Also, who could blame the likes of Fourie Du Preez and Bryan Habana the right to ride off into the sunset and enjoy playing overseas after very long, very successful international careers- the issues over this come from a conservative selection policy where Meyer seems hellbent on preserving the past. Keeping as much of the 2007 team together as possible! Those two are still world class players yes- but you've got to let go of them sooner or later. Will they keep picking Habana and Du Preez all the way to the RWC?

Time for Meyer to build a new team. Problem is he can't, because there is so much expectation. It's natural for a team to dip in quality when they choose to bring a new generation of players in. But the South African fans and media won't accept that. So he keeps picking guys who have reached the age where they are pretty much done with test rugby and want to go overseas. It's strange.

Exactly, build a new team.

Contracts get built up in fairly straightforward ways and will be based on an expectation of a number of games to play over the year and associated commercial/merchandising benefits.

The classic celtic nations tend have players who will negotiate into their contract that they want to be released for international windows (which is their right) and also for national training sessions (which is their option).  It is up to the club to then agree to this, and they will obviously reduce the pay accordingly as the player won't be around for as many games.  Habana mustn't have done this.

Though if Habana had been told he wouldn't be selected for the Boks again if he moved to France, then he would have been well within his rights to negotiate a contract to play as many games in France as he could.  Then if the SARU were the ones who then come back after the move and still select him anyway, they will have been the ones who created the issue and not the french club.

But take the positive stance off of the situation, bring through the youngsters, create a squad that will challenge for the next decade instead of trying to hold together a team that stayed at the top level for the last decade.

Sorry,you just don`t get it do you it isn`t just Meyer,Boks have been doing it for at least 5years.Once a player decides to take the cash fine no problem BUT don`t keep picking him
because it will hurt your team.
Aus and NZ don`t because if they did the flood gates would open and most of there top players would vanish.
They use the S15 to play in the style they want there test side to play,in NZ anyway they
want a player rested it happens.
Nz at least have got it right a central contract every thing stemming from there the proof of the pudding is plain to see.

Alan, they don't get it. We are both wasting our time.

It's the same for Gurthro Steenkamp who will be available for Toulouse apparently.

Yeah there are five Boks going back to Europe this weekend, then supposedly back on Sunday to OZ.

Honestly Biltong can you ever actually see it changing?

SA are continually second in the world rankings while playing these guys, in my opinion it'd take a massive loss if form or a coach with MASSIVE balls to stop selecting foreign based players.

HammerofThunor wrote:Er...who says that some are ignoring IRB rules? The Southern Hemisphere release window includes 6 weeks that cover the games. The other weekends are not part of the international window. If you don't like it don't select those players (as you already suggested) or petition the IRB to extend the window. However the clubs are not doing any thing wrong and not breaking any IRB regulations.

But if the best players from your nation play overseas for clubs who don't want to release players unless forced to then that weakens your nations ability and this creates a gap between countries that have lots of money and the ones that don't.

THE point is IF they were told EITHER Or then the Boks culd build a team to be Number ONE
again.Something that only briefly occurred in 2009 post RWC a new team rebuilt MAY have
changed that.

yappysnap wrote:Honestly Biltong can you ever actually see it changing?

SA are continually second in the world rankings while playing these guys, in my opinion it'd take a massive loss if form or a coach with MASSIVE balls to stop selecting foreign based players.

yappy at some point it has to be done, whether you do it now or in five years, eventually we will run out of experienced players.

Might as well sacrafice now for the future of SA rugby.

I for one will back up Heyneke Meyer 100% if he came out tommorrow and said he is going to start fresh.

The rankings are just numbers on a piece of paper, nothing more.

We take the knock for a year and get on with it.

I have enough confidence in our youngsters to perform well.

Is there really much of a drop in quality when you take overseas players out of the equation?

alanmackie6 wrote:THE point is IF they were told EITHER Or then the Boks culd build a team to be Number ONE
again.Something that only briefly occurred in 2009 post RWC a new team rebuilt MAY have
changed that.

alan a new team will change that.

The current senior crop has shown over the past three years they struggle to adapt and some of them aren't up to the pace out youngsters are.

Just look at the list of youngsters in the bacline we hav that all want to play fast and open running rugby.

Halfback. sarel Pretorius, Piet vsn Zyl, Jaco Reinach.
Fly half. Goosen, Lambie, Catrakilis and van Swegen.
Centers, JJ Engelbrecht, Sadie, Ebersohn, Serfontein
Wings, Rhule, Willie le Roux, Louis Ludick,
Fullback, Kolbe, Visser.

Have forgotten a few, but these kids are young and willing, they need oppostunties. They aren't yet bound by rigid game plans.

In the forwards we have even more talent.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Is there really much of a drop in quality when you take overseas players out of the equation?

you only lose the experience, and they can make that up quickly, after all, it isn't going to be 15 debutants.

Biltong wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Is there really much of a drop in quality when you take overseas players out of the equation?

you only lose the experience, and they can make that up quickly, after all, it isn't going to be 15 debutants.

Who do you lose anyway? Pienaar, Habana, Louw.. who else?

maestegmafia wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Er...who says that some are ignoring IRB rules? The Southern Hemisphere release window includes 6 weeks that cover the games. The other weekends are not part of the international window. If you don't like it don't select those players (as you already suggested) or petition the IRB to extend the window. However the clubs are not doing any thing wrong and not breaking any IRB regulations.

But if the best players from your nation play overseas for clubs who don't want to release players unless forced to then that weakens your nations ability and this creates a gap between countries that have lots of money and the ones that don't.

But you're benefiting from either the training these clubs provide or it frees up places at 'home' for new players, effectlyexpanding your player base. The issues are the break weekends. If they weren't there or counted in the international window it wouldn't be a problem.

HammerofThunor wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Er...who says that some are ignoring IRB rules? The Southern Hemisphere release window includes 6 weeks that cover the games. The other weekends are not part of the international window. If you don't like it don't select those players (as you already suggested) or petition the IRB to extend the window. However the clubs are not doing any thing wrong and not breaking any IRB regulations.

But if the best players from your nation play overseas for clubs who don't want to release players unless forced to then that weakens your nations ability and this creates a gap between countries that have lots of money and the ones that don't.

But you're benefiting from either the training these clubs provide or it frees up places at 'home' for new players, effectlyexpanding your player base. The issues are the break weekends. If they weren't there or counted in the international window it wouldn't be a problem.

If you don't select them you erradicate the problem all together.

Also, how do we benefit from the training they recieve at their overseas clubs?

Biltong wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Is there really much of a drop in quality when you take overseas players out of the equation?

you only lose the experience, and they can make that up quickly, after all, it isn't going to be 15 debutants.

Come on, lets not pretend that Piet van Zyl is as good as Fourie Du Preez or Ruan Pienaar or that you're pack can do without Juandre Kruger, or that Bryan Habana isn't your best wing on form.

There will be a drop in quality for sure. It's a temporary thing you have to work through.

I never said they are as good, however if yu don't provide them with opportunities to grow then the older and more experienced players will always remain the best, until eventually they retire and rhen you have nobody.

Biltong wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Er...who says that some are ignoring IRB rules? The Southern Hemisphere release window includes 6 weeks that cover the games. The other weekends are not part of the international window. If you don't like it don't select those players (as you already suggested) or petition the IRB to extend the window. However the clubs are not doing any thing wrong and not breaking any IRB regulations.

But if the best players from your nation play overseas for clubs who don't want to release players unless forced to then that weakens your nations ability and this creates a gap between countries that have lots of money and the ones that don't.

But you're benefiting from either the training these clubs provide or it frees up places at 'home' for new players, effectlyexpanding your player base. The issues are the break weekends. If they weren't there or counted in the international window it wouldn't be a problem.

If you don't select them you erradicate the problem all together.

Also, how do we benefit from the training they recieve at their overseas clubs?

I was thinking more of countries without a pro structure. In your case selecting guys at home makes sense. Given the distances and timings it makes sense to prioritise home players.

Biltong wrote:I am not saying they are doing anything wrong, I am merely strengthening my case as to why we should not select overseas players

You are not, but other posters are erroneously claiming clubs are flouting IRB rules - perhaps to spark yet another flame war?

LondonTiger wrote:

Biltong wrote:I am not saying they are doing anything wrong, I am merely strengthening my case as to why we should not select overseas players

You are not, but other posters are erroneously claiming clubs are flouting IRB rules - perhaps to spark yet another flame war?

To be honest, I don't care much for any he said, she said, who is guilty and who is not guilty. I am only concerned for how it impacts on the Boks and their selection issues and preparations.

As a Mod sadly these she said etc things have an impact on you due to the flames they attract.


I do agree, that this is causing you guys serious issues.

alanmackie6 wrote:It is the reason ALL countries should not pick Overseas based players,the IRB Country before
Club rule is seldom enforced by them.Most players returning suffer the NH disease need 2 yrs
in quarantine to get back up to speed.[IF they ever do.

Its not that clear cut and it is different for SH and NH. Its almost certainly faster for a player based in Paris to jump on a plane to London than it would be to drive from the South West, for instance. Flying Australia to France is a different matter altogether

And the IRB don't have a "country before club" rule. There have set aside a specific period to play internationals now for some reason the RC and 6N both have off weekends. This isn't a HUGE issue when players are in the 'right' regions as the travel times aren't massive. But are a big issue with the travel times required for this case. It certainly is a very good reason for picking only players that will be reasonably available (if an agreement was in place to allow these players to stay in South Africa it wouldn't be as much of a problem).

Biltong wrote:I never said they are as good, however if yu don't provide them with opportunities to grow then the older and more experienced players will always remain the best, until eventually they retire and rhen you have nobody.

Indeed.

I thought indeed there was a Country before Club IRB policy if not there should be.
Biltong of all people knows my long and deep respect for Bok Rugby,and we both
agree on Home based players only being selected.I have never doubted the depth
or abilities of SA players they just don`t seem to pick many home based ones now.
THAT to me is sacriligeous!!!!  

Alan I was reading an article by Tony Johnston of NZ that he wrote for Super Sport and what he said in there is somthing you and I will agree with wholeheartedly.


Here is what he had to say.


Still, South Africa continue to play a risky game by picking offshore based players.

Firstly they are playing a different season, so the European-based players in particular are not getting a great deal of down time.

They are playing a different style of game, in different conditions.

They come back and they block the door on upcoming talent, surely an impediment to the ongoing succession planning that should be part and parcel of a national strategy, and they stand in the way of players who have stayed loyal to their Super Rugby and Currie Cup teams.

The New Zealand Rugby Union maintains an unbending stance that the integrity of the domestic competitions has to be protected.

The NZRU knows that as soon as they allow All Blacks to be picked from overseas there will be a rush for the door, and the New Zealand Super Rugby franchises, the provincial unions and their two competitions will suffer overall.

It is a policy fewer and fewer rugby fans in New Zealand disagree with, despite the fact that we too are losing a lot of players offshore. The difference is that most of New Zealand's truly elite players are still playing rugby in New Zealand. It’s a good way of finding out who really has the burning desire to wear the black jersey.

I think we are increasingly seeing the downside of the Saru position with the exodus of quality players from the South African scene, many of whom still see themselves playing for the South Africa. Yes, you have great depth, but that will be increasingly tested unless Saru changes its policy.

alanmackie6 wrote:I thought indeed there was a Country before Club IRB policy if not there should be.
Biltong of all people knows my long and deep respect for Bok Rugby,and we both
agree on Home based players only being selected.I have never doubted the depth
or abilities of SA players they just don`t seem to pick many home based ones now.
THAT to me is sacriligeous!!!!  

There are the international windows where players MUST be released. But players don't have to be released outside these windows. That's because the IRB recognise that the International game isn't the be all and end all for rugby and that 11 or 12 international games are more than enough for a healthy international structure.

But I personally don't think the books would be that weakened by only picking SA based players. Maybe in some areas for a little bit but not for long.

Sorry Hammer,when they were Nh based players like Matfield,Botha,Smit,Butch james,Franz Steyn came back a shadow of there former selves.It took them several months to get back
to the SH standards that is NOT being patronizing but is a fact.
To clarify that WHEN the above were NHbased and travelled it just didn`t work in the case
of Steyn he came back out of condition and was a total waste of space.I KNOW he is a great
player I am a big fan of his.

HammerofThunor wrote:

alanmackie6 wrote:I thought indeed there was a Country before Club IRB policy if not there should be.
Biltong of all people knows my long and deep respect for Bok Rugby,and we both
agree on Home based players only being selected.I have never doubted the depth
or abilities of SA players they just don`t seem to pick many home based ones now.
THAT to me is sacriligeous!!!!  

There are the international windows where players MUST be released. But players don't have to be released outside these windows. That's because the IRB recognise that the International game isn't the be all and end all for rugby and that 11 or 12 international games are more than enough for a healthy international structure.

But I personally don't think the books would be that weakened by only picking SA based players. Maybe in some areas for a little bit but not for long.

Just look at the make up of teams like Fiji, Samoa, Argentina and Tonga this autumn and you'll see the effect. IRB rankings should account for player availability. It's variable depending on which country they are touring, etc.

Here's part of a green and gold article on Argentina prior to the November tests:
"Argentina

An agreement between the UAR and the Top 14 clubs for the release of their players is going to diminish the chances of the Pumas in the Autumn Tests, and critically so in their match against Ireland.

To satisfy mandatory annual rest periods Argentina had to forgo using all their players in the June window Tests against France and Italy so they could play in TRC. In the November window they were restricted to choosing no more than two players from each Top 14 club.

The agreement has the facade of looking after player welfare but it is really a ploy by the French clubs to deal with their over-long season. It compromises the right of players to play for their country and seems to be in breach of Regulation 9 of the IRB Charter.

Montpelier has several Pumas on its books and Argentine coach Santiago Phelan chose hooker Agustin Creevy and THP Juan Figallo in their squad for the first test against Wales, which meant that fullback Lucas Gonzalez Amorosino and inside centre Santiago Fernandez were excluded. All four played against the Wallabies in Rosario recently.

It follows that all four won’t be playing for Argentina, ranked 8th, against Ireland ranked 7th, in a test match that could be critical to both teams’ 2015 RWC rankings.

It also means that TRC will devalue the worth of Puma players to the hard-nosed French clubs. Carrizza the fine Biarritz lock did not have his contract renewed for the current season and he won’t be the first to be so treated. Recruitment of new Argentine players is expected to drop also."