What are your views on the influence of overseas players at your club?

Different well supported clubs, regions, provinces and even countries have a varying number of players from overseas. Many different types, young prospects wishing to benefit from an experience of rugby abroad, ex international journeymen making their last few quid before retirement, some mid career and unable to turn down the financial offers available.

Good players of any distinction make a team all the better for their presence, whether foreign or not these players lift those around them and inspire those coming through. Rugby has a tradition going back to its roots of touring, traveling and international comradery. It is an essence our game, an essential ingredient in rugby's DNA.

Modern professional teams, at the higher echelons of the sport encompass the use of foreign players with varying relish. Some have a heavy reliance, some, like RC Toulon, reflect modern soccer teams with full squads of international superstar names.

There are pros and cons to the quantity of movement within the game. Overseas transferred players raise the cost of the club game wage bills astronomically isolating the teams without a budget to compete, create a separatism within the game across the globe. A super power club game has now developed in wealthy rugby countries like France and Japan, who are able to buy whoever they want and pay them twice as much as anyone else.

There are many more thoughts positive and negative about the transient nature of rugby, I would love to hear your thoughts.

.International rugby should be our focus and overseas players prevent opportunities for national players.

you know my thoughts

I dont see the point getting average players in.

They need to be good enough to be significantly better than the local alternative. They also need to the type of player who can coach the up and coming natives. They also should be small in number - quality over quantity.

As an example Ulster will, probably, have 4 foreigners next year - Afoa, Muller, Pienaer, Payne - they tick the boxes above.

biltongbek wrote:

.International rugby should be our focus and overseas players prevent opportunities for national players.

you know my thoughts

I'm with Biltong on this one, international rugby is the absolute pinnacle of the game, and where as I would like the regions to do well, I would not want it at the cost of the international side. So the more WQ players we have in our system, the better.

I went for option 3.

Pienaar, Afoa, Muller, Wannenburg and Terblanche have had a huge impact at Ulster in the past 2 seasons. They've added a steel, composure and leadership that was missing from a talented but otherwise inexperienced and underperforming squad.

They've helped raise the bar in terms of expectation and performances that will only help the club moving forward as the number of NIQ's are reduced.

Well I love the club game and the International game equally. Both quite differently and they are parallel in mind. Internationals are absolutely special, but nothing better on a normal weekend than to take in a club game. I am a Saints fan and I go to watch when I can, usually about a half dozen times per season. But I also really like going to lower level games and offering support. This is the grass roots and the real foundation of our sport.

For Saints, we have foreigners such as Brian Mujati, Tiny, James Downey and Roger Wilson who seem a part of the community and not just more imported players. Bruce Reihana could be Lord Mayor of Northampton tomorrow, if he wanted. It is very hard to view these guys as anything but 'our' guys and have been a huge plus for our squad. I believe having players of diverse personal backgrounds and varied playing backgrounds makes a team better.

So, answering the question in the origninal post becomes hard because I would like to see clubs of mostly home grown lads, but these guys are such class. So I suppose the answer is a proper mix of players, a limited number of imported talent, but carefully selected to make sure they do become part of the club and community.

Nick Evans, James Johnston, M. Faasavalou - 1st teamers for Quins make a huge impact.

T.Vajellos - 2nd rower, behind Robson and Kohn - reasonable replacement but not 1st choice.

Fairbrother, Mayhew are 2 Southern Hem front rowers - they only really sit on the bench or play for A's. I cant see them adding much other than reasonable squad cover.

I dont really see a huge impact for some of these NEQ foreigners - they could be considered to take the place of young English tallent, but Quins seem to still give the youngsters a go if they show the goods in training so I feel that there isnt a problem really at Quins.

At Quins we have a small number of important overseas players that really improve our side. I wouldn't want many more but as it stands I think they really help the other players grow.

It is undeniably cheaper and more sustainable to use academy players rather than buying in expensive guys to win you games. It should also benefit your national squad, larger player base more to chose from, more players qualified playing top class rugby.

Overseas players or players developed by other teams that are brought in are expensive though can have huge benefits in both improving results and developing home grown talent. I am sure we can all think of a number of guys that have contributed in such a way to our favourite teams over the last few years.

But what would you rather see rather pay to watch? A team of home grown local lads, a star studied super team contrived of the greatest players in the world (a rugby real Madrid).

I wouldn't mind seeing the home grown lads, becuase pretty soon they will give you quality rugby once experienced and local "flair", not a contrived mish mash of superstars running around.

I was watching the stormers vs the cheetahs on the weekend.

The stormers were disciplined in the first half, kept their structure and played their gameplan. By half time they led 16-0.

Then the cheetahs came out the second half like Afrikaners possesed. for 40 mintues in the second half, I saw South african flavour rugby, the Cheethas scored 2 tries and almost won the game, the hits, physicality and everything else that is typical south african derby rugby was the best 40 minutes I saw this whole season so far.

Brings me back to my roots.

It is also fair to say that many of the teams that have a large Non Locally Grown Players in their teams/squads dont do so well even in Europe.

Look at Leinster and Munsters recent successes compared to other European Clubs like Stade Francais, RC Toulon, Leicester Tigers, Ulster, Saracens or Cardiff Blues.

I think the fact that Munster and Leinster have had mostly home grown squads has been an advantage over the expensively assembled French clubs. Playing for your home province in front of your own local people can get a player to squeeze that tiny bit extra effort out of himself that can make the difference between winning and losing.

On the other hand the likes of Nacewa and Contepomi have been hugely popular and have helped the provinces immensely. So like Geoff aid it should be quality over quantity.

Leinster brought in Matt Berquist this year to cover Sexton. But he got injured at the start of the season, giving Madigan a chance and he's been absolutely brilliant. The signing of Berquist as a squad player was proven to be completely unnecessary, as a young Irish player was more than good enough. These type of average signings are the ones I'd like Leinster to stop. We have a huge catchment area of talent, and looking abroad for a player can only be justified if he's world class.

maestegmafia wrote:It is also fair to say that many of the teams that have a large Non Locally Grown Players in their teams/squads dont do so well even in Europe.

Look at Leinster and Munsters recent successes compared to other European Clubs like Stade Francais, RC Toulon, Leicester Tigers, Ulster, Saracens or Cardiff Blues.

Ulster have the same number of overseas players as Munster and Leinster.

rodders wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:It is also fair to say that many of the teams that have a large Non Locally Grown Players in their teams/squads dont do so well even in Europe.

Look at Leinster and Munsters recent successes compared to other European Clubs like Stade Francais, RC Toulon, Leicester Tigers, Ulster, Saracens or Cardiff Blues.

Ulster have the same number of overseas players as Munster and Leinster.

I think Ulster's First team includes more regular overseas players than Munster or Leinster. I know that all Irish provinces have a limit on how many can be employed, but Ulster regularly have five first team starters who are not Irish Qualified.

OK fair enough but what you suggested was that Ulster had more overseas players which isn't the case.

We have 5 NIQs in our starting lineup compared to Leinsters 2-3 and and Munsters 3-4. Not a huge difference really.

Ulster have the same number of overseas players as Munster and Leinster. .

Keep yer facts to yersell Rodders - no place for it here.

I want to know what the definition of a 'Locally Grown Player' is.

Is it from the immediate catchment area of the club or is it some other measure?

TrailApe wrote:

Ulster have the same number of overseas players as Munster and Leinster. .

Keep yer facts to yersell Rodders - no place for it here.

I want to know what the definition of a 'Locally Grown Player' is.

Is it from the immediate catchment area of the club or is it some other measure?

Lets say Academy players and feeder club players entering the team are the same thing as a 'Locally Grown Player'. The opposite of a player bought from a rival or overseas club to improve the team.

I have to abstain on this vote as it has so many variables and 'none of the above' voting options exist.

Plus it depends on the league you are talking about : there's more than a subtle difference between a closed (franchised) league and an open one.

Personally I want to see far fewer foreigners in the Jeff, but as they are all corporate entities and employment laws, I feel that eventually the trend will be towards the footy model.

TrailApe wrote:

Ulster have the same number of overseas players as Munster and Leinster. .

Keep yer facts to yersell Rodders - no place for it here.

I want to know what the definition of a 'Locally Grown Player' is.

Is it from the immediate catchment area of the club or is it some other measure?

Fro Ulster a 40 man squad would typically breakdown

30 players who went through the Academy
5 who are qualified as Irish by other means - parent, grandparents, residency - some learnt their trade elsewhere some at Ulster
5 NIE

Portnoy wrote:I have to abstain on this vote as it has so many variables and 'none of the above' voting options exist.

Plus it depends on the league you are talking about : there's more than a subtle difference between a closed (franchised) league and an open one.

Personally I want to see far fewer foreigners in the Jeff, but as they are all corporate entities and employment laws, I feel that eventually the trend will be towards the footy model.

As far as I know UK and European employment laws do not restrict EU nationals from working between EU nations, though they do restrict non EU nationals, like Australians, South Africans, South Seas Islanders and New Zealanders that make up the majority of the nationalities of foreign players representing European clubs.

Those players need work permits to come to Europe to ply their trade, same as football players and cricketers from outside the EU.

If anything employment laws restrict non EU nationals from working in Europe rather than the contrary.

You seem inclined to vote for the third option from the top. "A smaller and governed number of overseas players is a benefit to the squad and youth."

Option 3 for me. It's important to promote development but in my view a small core of the right kind of internationals helps rather than hinders. Quins are a good current example, an exciting young back line made up of English academy products plus one older, quality international in Evans to guide the youngsters and take a bit of pressure off. It's similar at Ulster with Ruan Piennar and their backs. Hopefully it'll be the same next season with Gloucester's exciting backs with Jimmy Cowan at scrumhalf.

Another point, what do we actually mean when discussing overseas players? e.g. Jim Hamilton came through the English club system but plays his international rugby for Scotland, so would you consider him a foreign import or not?

As far as I know UK and European employment laws do not restrict EU nationals from working between EU nations, though they do restrict non EU nationals, like Australians, South Africans, South Seas Islanders and New Zealanders that make up the majority of the nationalities of foreign players representing European clubs.

There's something called the Kolpak agreement which pretty much blows away any chance of restricting some of the players from those nations like say South Africa. There are also a number of Argentinians with Italian passports or who marry European and so cannot be regulated (e.g. Marcos Ayerza and his Spanish wife). There are also a number of players who sneak in under some quite brilliant ancestral detail like Aaron Mauger who held a French passport through his Haitian Grandmother. Trying to regulate the number of foreign players is nigh impossible, the AP had a limit on the number of Non-EU/Non-Kolpak players (it might still do) but the number that used to get around it was quite extraordinary.

I have no issue with what nationality a player is as long as he buys into the ethos of my club (Leicester Tigers). Geordan Murphy has spent nearly as much of his life playing for Leicester as he did living in Ireland, how can you say he is a foreign import taking the chance of a home grown player. He has repeatedly turned down moves back to Ireland to stay with Tigers and practically bleeds green, red and white. He's as much a Tiger as Dan Cole who was born across the road from the ground and who is Leicestershire born and bread.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

As far as I know UK and European employment laws do not restrict EU nationals from working between EU nations, though they do restrict non EU nationals, like Australians, South Africans, South Seas Islanders and New Zealanders that make up the majority of the nationalities of foreign players representing European clubs.

There's something called the Kolpak agreement which pretty much blows away any chance of restricting some of the players from those nations like say South Africa. There are also a number of Argentinians with Italian passports or who marry European and so cannot be regulated (e.g. Marcos Ayerza and his Spanish wife). There are also a number of players who sneak in under some quite brilliant ancestral detail like Aaron Mauger who held a French passport through his Haitian Grandmother. Trying to regulate the number of foreign players is nigh impossible, the AP had a limit on the number of Non-EU/Non-Kolpak players (it might still do) but the number that used to get around it was quite extraordinary.

I have no issue with what nationality a player is as long as he buys into the ethos of my club (Leicester Tigers). Geordan Murphy has spent nearly as much of his life playing for Leicester as he did living in Ireland, how can you say he is a foreign import taking the chance of a home grown player. He has repeatedly turned down moves back to Ireland to stay with Tigers and practically bleeds green, red and white. He's as much a Tiger as Dan Cole who was born across the road from the ground and who is Leicestershire born and bread.

Good points Sam.

My point of view is that the right players whether local, overseas foreigners, or brought in from a rival club in your country can be a very positive part in a squad. Their presence can be a very positive thing for the nation they are playing in, as their influence can inspire the careers of young talent within that club.

As you point out, the quantity, quality and relevance of a player who is adopted by a club/province/region is very difficult to administer, should actual employment law be unaffected. My thought is that it is very much down to the clubs own consciousness to take into account the quantity of players that would not qualify to play for their governing national union should they be called upon. A club that has over 50% non nationally qualified players in their squad is likely to be doing a lot less than a club that has none, except in exceptional circumstance of which I am sure there are a few.

But I would say that considering that national unions give a great deal of money to all clubs/provinces and regions they should be allowed some say in who that club decides to employ in their squad as the net result effects their national performance.

My thought is that it is very much down to the clubs own consciousness to take into account the quantity of players that would not qualify to play for their governing national union should they be called upon.

I think clubs are aware of that in the AP, particularly in relevence to the RFU pay outs (e.g. Sale and their nearly all English squad for the last game of the season) but I think the players have to be right for the club. I'd much rather have a foreign player who will buy into the ethos of my club and show committment and loyalty than spend the money on an English player who is all about the money and only interested in the club as long as it gets him the lucrative international exposure and sponsor contracts. Nationality comes very much after ability and personality for me. Tom Varndell is a local boy and a talented winger (maybe not international level but he scored a lot of tries), Cockers got rid of him almost as soon as he came to the top job. Varndell didn't want to apply himself in training and I heard their were complaints he bi*ched about doing the community aspects of his job. Compare that to Alesana Tuilagi who I've met a couple of times and couldn't do more for anyone in a Tigers shirt (including ending a phone call to a friend in order to be able to pose with a young fan).

I understand to those who are more country than club that the level of foreign players is a concern and we all love to see a local lad come through the academy and make it. The level of ability at the club should not be dumbed down to make it easily accesible though. There's also the flip side that the more and more restrictive certain leagues become to foreign players the harder it is for developing rugby nations to get experienced pros, how many Romanian/Russian/Georgian players get a chance in the Rabo for example? (I'm not banging the Rabo, just as example as the Regions are run for the benefit of their national teams and have gentlemans agreements with their unions in exchange for funding).

I'm an Ulster fan and I picked;

A smaller and governed number of overseas players is a benefit to the squad and youth

I think we've shown that 4 or 5 quality foreign players can bring success and still leave space for a squad of thirty to thirty-five players qualified for the international side who benefit massively from playing and training with them.

Ulster is in many ways the perfect example of how foreign players should be used. We've been lucky enough to have the perfect balance over the past two years.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

My thought is that it is very much down to the clubs own consciousness to take into account the quantity of players that would not qualify to play for their governing national union should they be called upon.

I think clubs are aware of that in the AP, particularly in relevence to the RFU pay outs (e.g. Sale and their nearly all English squad for the last game of the season) but I think the players have to be right for the club. I'd much rather have a foreign player who will buy into the ethos of my club and show committment and loyalty than spend the money on an English player who is all about the money and only interested in the club as long as it gets him the lucrative international exposure and sponsor contracts. Nationality comes very much after ability and personality for me. Tom Varndell is a local boy and a talented winger (maybe not international level but he scored a lot of tries), Cockers got rid of him almost as soon as he came to the top job. Varndell didn't want to apply himself in training and I heard their were complaints he bi*ched about doing the community aspects of his job. Compare that to Alesana Tuilagi who I've met a couple of times and couldn't do more for anyone in a Tigers shirt (including ending a phone call to a friend in order to be able to pose with a young fan).

I understand to those who are more country than club that the level of foreign players is a concern and we all love to see a local lad come through the academy and make it. The level of ability at the club should not be dumbed down to make it easily accesible though. There's also the flip side that the more and more restrictive certain leagues become to foreign players the harder it is for developing rugby nations to get experienced pros, how many Romanian/Russian/Georgian players get a chance in the Rabo for example? (I'm not banging the Rabo, just as example as the Regions are run for the benefit of their national teams and have gentlemans agreements with their unions in exchange for funding).

Again some very valid and interesting points Sam

The regions in Wales differ very much to the English Professional Clubs. They are funded in a big way by the WRU and have to cow toe to what the unions require.

The flipside of that coin is that it is a lot cheaper for a rugby club to invest in itself and therefor look to its academy for players, than to look to who they might be able to purchase on contract to strengthen their weak areas. In a country with a small rugby economy like Wales it is a necessity to try to be as self sustainable as possible.

Well i think a smaller number of top notch foreigners is right.

The falcons generally opperated this way...with Tuigamala, Hayman, Burke, Pat Lam..... the strong Scottish links etc with a strong academy or british based team.

Alan Tait decided to change that and fill the team with gash journeymen like Ashley Wells, jimmy Gopperth, Shortland, Helleur....blah blah blah...its almost totally foreign now....and low behold....we're relegated!

I think on the whole it's been a positive influence on the Scottish sides. Like every side we've had some duff ones, and there is of course a balance to strike, but when done right a good import can have a massively positive effect on the side, and teach the local lads an enormous amount.

Blackadder had a great impact at Edinburgh, as has Tim Visser and, in particular this season, Talei.

Glasgow have had Stortoni and Aramburu, both bringing outstanding committment and work ethic to the squad.

Obviously it would be wonderful to have all Scottish sides, strong in every respect, but that isn't going to happen soon.

I think players for Wellington should come from Wellington
Hurricanes should come for the lower North Island
All Blacks to come from NZ

Long term migrants to any of those places is okay.
Parents and grand parents have nothing to do with it.

Alan Tait decided to change that and fill the team with gash journeymen

I think it was less that the talent was average but more that there was so many of them and that Tait allowed the hard working ethos of Newcastle to slip away. The physicality and defiance that teams expected in trips up North slowly disappeared under his tenure and it wasn't until Gold came back and re-instilled some of those old values things started to change.

nganboy wrote:I think players for Wellington should come from Wellington
Hurricanes should come for the lower North Island
All Blacks to come from NZ

Long term migrants to any of those places is okay.
Parents and grand parents have nothing to do with it.

What about a situation like Declan Fitzpatrick at Ulster.

All of his extended family are from Cavan. His parents moven to the Englsih midlands to get work.
He was brought up there and the family came back, I think, when he was in his late teens.
So he only qualifies through his parents but by any reasonable measure he is a Cavan man.

I would always allow parents to be honest.

I think we've shown that 4 or 5 quality foreign players can bring success and still leave space for a squad of thirty to thirty-five players qualified for the international side who benefit massively from playing and training with them.

Ulster is in many ways the perfect example of how foreign players should be used. We've been lucky enough to have the perfect balance over the past two years

Ulster do have a cracking team at the minute but I would probably dispute the 'perfect' tag. Ulster have splashed the cash on foreign imports to be the corner stone of their team. Afoa is the rock in the scrum, Pienaar the tactical general and points kicker and Muller the captain and lineout operator. The 30 to 35 available to the national team and centred around those imports and it all works very well for Ulster though not so well for Ireland. If Ulster's aim is to be successful then yes they are doing very well indeed but if their ambition is to strengthen the national team then you could argue the Leinster model is closer to 'perfect'.

The flipside of that coin is that it is a lot cheaper for a rugby club to invest in itself and therefor look to its academy for players, than to look to who they might be able to purchase on contract to strengthen their weak areas. In a country with a small rugby economy like Wales it is a necessity to try to be as self sustainable as possible.

I think all professional entities are aiming for sustainability, even those with sugar daddy backers. The Welsh Regions have the advantage of the support from the WRU which is turning a proft these days. If a PRL team is in financial straits it's up to the owners to sort them out otherwise it's pretty much goodnight (as seen with Richmond at the start of the pro game). It is certainly cheaper to develop your own talent and as seen with Saints relegation and re-emergence as well as Newcastle's demise this season, that self produced talent is critical for the ethos of the team.

The PRL clubs seem to have a reputation for spending big but the majority of them are funding by small business consortiums or local businessmen who are financially limited. Sarries, Bath and seemingly Newcastle under their new owner are the exceptions. For instance Tigers is owned by the fans and has no majority shareholder, if they aren't sustainable there's no existance as there is no rich benefactor there to write off their debts.

Sam you mention 3 players at Ulster and they are absolutely key but there are a couple of points of clarification.

1 - They may be the only 3 players at the club next year who have played for another National side i.e. the only ones who can never play for Ireland. We had 6 this year so that is a 50% reduction.

2 - The plan is to replace Afoa in 2 years. We have a full all Irish front row squad planned for 2014-15 - only 1 slot does not have a name against it.
Also Ulster have had far less NIE front rowers than either Leinster or Munster. We have had 2 NIE TH's and no hookers and no LHs in the last 8 years. That is pretty impressive imv.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

I think we've shown that 4 or 5 quality foreign players can bring success and still leave space for a squad of thirty to thirty-five players qualified for the international side who benefit massively from playing and training with them.

Ulster is in many ways the perfect example of how foreign players should be used. We've been lucky enough to have the perfect balance over the past two years

Ulster do have a cracking team at the minute but I would probably dispute the 'perfect' tag. Ulster have splashed the cash on foreign imports to be the corner stone of their team. Afoa is the rock in the scrum, Pienaar the tactical general and points kicker and Muller the captain and lineout operator. The 30 to 35 available to the national team and centred around those imports and it all works very well for Ulster though not so well for Ireland. If Ulster's aim is to be successful then yes they are doing very well indeed but if their ambition is to strengthen the national team then you could argue the Leinster model is closer to 'perfect'.

Yes, but how did Leinster get where they are? They had a lot more foreign players a few years ago in key positions but as their next generation came through rubbing shoulders with them and learning from them they've been able to slowly phase them out. Sexton takes over from Contepomi at 10, Ross takes over from Le Roux/Van Der Linde at tighthead etc. Leinster and Ulster have the same policy; they're just about five years ahead of us in the long-term plan.

I think that one or two top quality overseas players in a squad is hugely beneficial to any team, regardless of where you're from.

I know that Teichmann, Collins, Holah and Monty were fantastic for there respective Welsh teams. I know a Sharks fan who loves Michalak, Clever went well in SA. I loved Tipoki and Cullen at Munster and Nacewa and Elsom at Leinster were and are astonishing.

These top quality players are great, it is the journeymen that get to me and annoy me...they do restrict upcoming academy players whereas some of the aforementioned can help bring these young guys on...

The secret is few, but a top quality few in my opinion...

Michalack has been playing for the sharks on and off a few times. He is however not playing very well this season. His decision making has been poor, doesn't distribute very well, but then we have Patrick Lambie to compare him to.

Oh I agree, I don't think that he's been very good at all, but a mate of mne loves him and loves that he plays for the Sharks...

Like all sports, everyone loves a local hero, but there is always a foreign legend to don a teams jersey...Henry and Cantona are entrenched in Arsenal and Manchester United history respectively...

There's a place for an overseas player...but it must be one or two in my opinion and they must bring something to the table...which can be tough...

They had a lot more foreign players a few years ago in key positions but as their next generation came through rubbing shoulders with them and learning from them they've been able to slowly phase them out. Sexton takes over from Contepomi at 10, Ross takes over from Le Roux/Van Der Linde at tighthead etc. Leinster and Ulster have the same policy; they're just about five years ahead of us in the long-term plan.

Fair point, though Leinster were fortunate in being able to land three very good players who were heading home in search of international recognition. Cullen's lineout ability and leadership learnt at Leicester from Kay, Jennings ruck ability learnt from Back and Ross's development at Quins were key assets to the Leinster machine. With the IRFU making a concerted effort to bring all Irish players back home will it be so easy to bring in experienced players in the next few years or are Ulster nearing self sufficiency in time for the IRFU agreement on player restrictions?

Returning players is a good point. You need some form of succession planning for when the NIE players leave.

I believe Ulster have in place for 15 and 3 but not for 2nd row or 9.

geoff - Youve got Wilson coming in to replace Wanneberg havent you?

geoff - Youve got Wilson coming in to replace Wanneberg havent you?

The view was more long term. After the IRFU have rounded up the remaining foreign based Irish players (there's not that many playing abroad), how are Irish Provinces going to bring in experienced players given that they rarely trade with each other and when they do it's generally only with Connacht. The IRFU are limiting the amount of foreign players by number and position. What we're saying is in the future it could be more difficult for the likes of Ulster to replace their foreign stars with established talent in the same way Leinster replaced their foreign tighthead with Ross.

We have indeed but we've been lucky in the last 2 seasons because Henry and Wannenberg were hardly ever injured. Our backrow is still very thin depth wise

Sam I think that Munster and Ulster would admit that their academies are a few years behind Leinster, but are trying to catch up. If three provinces get a talent conveyor belt to match Leinster's then it's inevitable that good Irish players will have to go abroad to get game time with the provinces trying to hold on to who they think are best prospects.

But the provinces won't always be right. There'll always be the likes of Reddan, and Ross who'll be rejected here and grow as players abroad and prove they are good enough. And the provinces will want them back. Offering the prospect of test rugby if you come home. I think it would be a good thing if the Irish team had more players with experience of playing in England and France. Particularly forwards. And most especially props.