South African players overseas

In recent weeks I’ve read articles concerning South African rugby, in particular their increasing player drain to clubs in Europe and Japan. Bulls alone are set to lose 6 internationals (3 of them lock forwards) to overseas teams after the World Cup, but we know it’s not just their top players being targeted. It is also their uncapped youngsters and the up & coming players; some of which perhaps targeted for that specific reason given that we are seeing more South Africans represent other countries in rugby. South Africa produces some class players every year and I imagine they’re more affordable than ABs, hence why we might be seeing a lot of them overseas.

I’ll post the articles in the comment section below. I was also interested to know who was playing and where, so we can also perhaps start an ongoing list. We can start with our own teams before moving on to the French teams... Please also include players formerly eligible for SA; examples include:
CJ Stander. South African, signed for Munster and qualified for Ireland via residency. Capped by Ireland.
Paul Willemse. South African-Namibian, first signed for Grenoble before moving to Montpellier and qualified for France via residency. Capped by France.
You may include some more recent past players.

Dragons: Brok Harris, Tiaan Loots
Blues: George Earle (set to move on)
Ospreys: Tom Botha, Hanno Dirksen(?)
Scarlets: Werner Kruger, Uzair Cassiem, David Bulbring (moving onto Japan)

https://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/story/_/id/26939878/sa-rugby-announces-de-centralised-player-contracting-model

https://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/story/_/id/27036500/south-africa-struggling-super-rugby-sides-face-difficult-future

Interesting that one at least is going the other way - Josh Strauss from Sale to Bulls. Great part of Glasgow's Pro14 winning team, never quite reproduced the form for Scotland.

Tigers have kicked picked up Hanro Liebenburg of the Bulls and E W Viljeon of the Stormers this summer and are rumoured to have offered a contract to Roleof Smit also of the Bulls.

demosthenes wrote:Interesting that one at least is going the other way - Josh Strauss from Sale to Bulls.  Great part of Glasgow's Pro14 winning team, never quite reproduced the form for Scotland.

Yeah, good bit of business for Bulls. Didn’t Herbst also go from Ulster to Bulls?

Is anyone going to do Sale’s SA list....

Van Rensburg - centre
Robert du Preez - flyhalf
Faf de Klerk - scrum half
Jono Ross - backrow
Jean-Luc du Preez - backrow
Dan du Preez - utility forward
Lood Dr Jaeger - lock
Coenie Oosthuizen - prop
Akker Van Der Merwe - hooker

That's the Sale list, mainly pilfered from the Sharks.

People have to remember that crime is an issue in South Africa and players family safety is high on their list.  My wife's uncle has a business in security where they offer armed guards to shops and arm response units to houses as the norm.

Wages are also much lower.  Earn big in Europe and go home and live like an ANC President.

There’s about 181 SA-born players in Six Nations professional clubs inc Eng Championship and Pro D2.  

Approx split
Fra 86 (last season)
Eng 62 (last season)
Wal 7
Sco 12
Irl 10
Ita 4

PRO14 had 37 last season, 7 were released or transferred. This season so far it will be 33.
Currently updating Eng and Fra clubs

Grant Hattingh just ended his contract with the Sunwolves following an injury. Lappies Labuschagné and Wimpie van der Walt are still with them. Van der Walt has been capped by Japan, while Labuschagné has been in the training squad.

Kotaro Matsushima was born in Pretoria. His mum is Japanese, while his dad is from Zimbabwe. He was a Sharks academy player, and turned out for them in the Currie Cup, but now plays in Japan, and has been capped 30 times.

Lock Jason Jenkins (who has one Springbok cap, when he played against Wales last summer) is with Toyota; Lourens Erasmus, Jacques van Rooyen & Riaan Viljoen with NTT. There are probably more, although some teams, like Suntory and NEC definitely have none.

Jaco Kriel, Elton Jantjies, Lionel Mapoe, Warren Whiteley, Ryan Kankowski, Heinrich Brüssow all had stints in Japan but often combined them with contracts in South Africa.

If Sharks and Stormers do join Pro 14 and entry to HCup, you would imagine they would be able to tempt a lot of the better SA European players home. Most leave for the money and when retired return to SA. If two clubs gained access and could nearly match the money available in Europe then a good number would be happy to return, and keep their international ambitions alive.

Kingshu wrote:If Sharks and Stormers do join Pro 14 and entry to HCup, you would imagine they would be able to tempt a lot of the better SA European players home. Most leave for the money and when retired return to SA. If two clubs gained access and could nearly match the money available in Europe then a good number would be happy to return, and keep their international ambitions alive.

The Boks are still selecting players in Europe. The latest team includes the likes of Elstadt of Toulon and Reinach or Saints. Leaving SA doesn't do much to hinder selection. I don't think Pro14 money will make that much difference it will be the as you say reliant on European Cup money and that will be a tough negotiation as no one will want less teams or a smaller piece of the pie so there will that onus on a big SA TV deal in order for them to gain access.

Even then as pointed out already money and safety abroad make short term moves very attractive only coming back to SA with a full wallet that allows immediate access to the best neighborhoods with the attached security.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Kingshu wrote:If Sharks and Stormers do join Pro 14 and entry to HCup, you would imagine they would be able to tempt a lot of the better SA European players home. Most leave for the money and when retired return to SA. If two clubs gained access and could nearly match the money available in Europe then a good number would be happy to return, and keep their international ambitions alive.

The Boks are still selecting players in Europe. The latest team includes the likes of Elstadt of Toulon and Reinach or Saints. Leaving SA doesn't do much to hinder selection. I don't think Pro14 money will make that much difference it will be the as you say reliant on European Cup money and that will be a tough negotiation as no one will want less teams or a smaller piece of the pie so there will that onus on a big SA TV deal in order for them to gain access.

Even then as pointed out already money and safety abroad make short term moves very attractive only coming back to SA with a full wallet that allows immediate access to the best neighborhoods with the attached security.

SA did introduce a selection policy in 2016 that ruled out overseas-based players who had won fewer than 30 Springbok caps. It does appear thats been set aside in the build up for the WC, but you would expect they will reintroduce it after the WC.

As to security you don't need to be retired with your earnings to be secure, do you think the Super Rugby SA players are living in danger or more danger than a retired SA player at present, or cannot afford the secure neighbourhoods? The players that stay will have the same security as the current SA super rugby players have now.

In regards HCup, I think the sponsors would love to have a bigger market to advertise too, and as we know its mostly money that dives these decisions, if the market is bigger then the deals get bigger when then are renewed, the SA TV money to show the HCup would also go up. We can only guess but it would appear allowing SA teams to qualify would grow the pot by far more than the extra travel costs. And the sponsors would be in favor of it. At the start the pie only has to increase enough where everyone gets the same amount as they do now, and then the potentional for growth will keep everyone happy.

As for numbers, I think the HCup going back to 24 teams would keep every one happy, its more competative now than before.

Kingshu wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Kingshu wrote:If Sharks and Stormers do join Pro 14 and entry to HCup, you would imagine they would be able to tempt a lot of the better SA European players home. Most leave for the money and when retired return to SA. If two clubs gained access and could nearly match the money available in Europe then a good number would be happy to return, and keep their international ambitions alive.

The Boks are still selecting players in Europe. The latest team includes the likes of Elstadt of Toulon and Reinach or Saints. Leaving SA doesn't do much to hinder selection. I don't think Pro14 money will make that much difference it will be the as you say reliant on European Cup money and that will be a tough negotiation as no one will want less teams or a smaller piece of the pie so there will that onus on a big SA TV deal in order for them to gain access.

Even then as pointed out already money and safety abroad make short term moves very attractive only coming back to SA with a full wallet that allows immediate access to the best neighborhoods with the attached security.

SA did introduce a selection policy in 2016 that ruled out overseas-based players who had won fewer than 30 Springbok caps. It does appear thats been set aside in the build up for the WC, but you would expect they will reintroduce it after the WC.

As to security you don't need to be retired with your earnings to be secure, do you think the Super Rugby SA players are living in danger or more danger than a retired SA player at present, or cannot afford the secure neighbourhoods? The players that stay will have the same security as the current SA super rugby players have now.

In regards HCup, I think the sponsors would love to have a bigger market to advertise too, and as we know its mostly money that dives these decisions, if the market is bigger then the deals get bigger when then are renewed, the SA TV money to show the HCup would also go up. We can only guess but it would appear allowing SA teams to qualify would grow the pot by far more than the extra travel costs. And the sponsors would be in favor of it. At the start the pie only has to increase enough where everyone gets the same amount as they do now, and then the potentional for growth will keep everyone happy.

As for numbers, I think the HCup going back to 24 teams would keep every one happy, its more competative now than before.

The regulations regarding caps seems to have died a death since Rassie took over, I think he's clever enough to keep the senior player involved but put an emphasis on selecting mainly the young talent that stays whilst ensuring caps for the next talent even if they have moved overseas to guard against allegiance changes.

I doubt SA players are living in discomfort but let's be realistic Etzebeth's quality of living now will be good but post his million Euro a season contract at Toulon it will be a whole other level of comfort and security that would be unobtainable if he stayed in SA.

The sponsors for the European Cups would like a wider market but whether that market is SA and whether that makes economic sense I don't know. Money will rule on that as you say.

Pot Hale wrote:There’s about 181 SA-born players in Six Nations professional clubs inc Eng Championship and Pro D2.  

Approx split
Fra  86 (last season)
Eng 62 (last season)
Wal 7
Sco 12
Irl 10
Ita 4

PRO14 had 37 last season, 7 were released or transferred. This season so far it will be 33.
Currently updating Eng and Fra clubs

Great post Pot, thanks. It’s come to my attention that Japan have a few and will have more after the World Cup. A lot of them lock forwards.

Rugby Fan wrote:Grant Hattingh just ended his contract with the Sunwolves following an injury. Lappies Labuschagné and Wimpie van der Walt are still with them. Van der Walt has been capped by Japan, while Labuschagné has been in the training squad.

Kotaro Matsushima was born in Pretoria. His mum is Japanese, while his dad is from Zimbabwe. He was a Sharks academy player, and turned out for them in the Currie Cup, but now plays in Japan, and has been capped 30 times.

Lock Jason Jenkins (who has one Springbok cap, when he played against Wales last summer) is with Toyota; Lourens Erasmus, Jacques van Rooyen & Riaan Viljoen with NTT. There are probably more, although some teams, like Suntory and NEC definitely have none.

Jaco Kriel, Elton Jantjies, Lionel Mapoe, Warren Whiteley, Ryan Kankowski, Heinrich Brüssow all had stints in Japan but often combined them with contracts in South Africa.

Good list. I think sometimes they play a season in Japan and then resume super rugby which must begin a few weeks before the Japanese league ends.

I believe RG Snyman has also signed to play in Japan? That’s 3 lock forwards the Bulls are losing, but I suppose some more good ones are waiting to come through.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Van Rensburg - centre
Robert du Preez - flyhalf
Faf de Klerk - scrum half
Jono Ross - backrow
Jean-Luc du Preez - backrow
Dan du Preez - utility forward
Lood Dr Jaeger - lock
Coenie Oosthuizen - prop
Akker Van Der Merwe - hooker

That's the Sale list, mainly pilfered from the Sharks.

That’s some team they could have next season. Aren’t Gloucester the next ones with the largest SA contingent?

Maybe it is time that world rugby enforced a wage cap on the three big spending leagues importing so many foreign players?

A more concerted effort to keep players in the nation’s they were born in has huge benefits for raising the quality of club rugby. It is important that people get to see there top players, that kids are inspired, that we attract enough youngsters for the game to carry in to the future with depth coming through

Kids can be inspired by top players no matter where they are born.

mikey_dragon wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Van Rensburg - centre
Robert du Preez - flyhalf
Faf de Klerk - scrum half
Jono Ross - backrow
Jean-Luc du Preez - backrow
Dan du Preez - utility forward
Lood Dr Jaeger - lock
Coenie Oosthuizen - prop
Akker Van Der Merwe - hooker

That's the Sale list, mainly pilfered from the Sharks.

That’s some team they could have next season. Aren’t Gloucester the next ones with the largest SA contingent?

Marias - hooker
Dreyer - prop
Grobler - lock
Mostert - lock
Ackerman - backrow
Kriel - backrow

So not as many as you would assume for Gloucester.

Maes, that's a very negative view on playing the game. Traditionally rugby players have travelled and played wherever life took them. The first AB captain was Irish and London Welsh had a great team of exiles back in the day. In the modern game trying to force players to stay in their respective nation will only benefit tier 1 international teams there is no benefit for anyone else. The international rugby board agreeing an expanded insurance scheme to cover players in training squads and games so that clubs don't suffer the risk from international call ups would increase availability.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Kids can be inspired by top players no matter where they are born.

I completely agree but if all the top players play on the other side of the planet then they don’t get to see any.

For now nations like NZ still produce so many top quality players the drain of talent away from the home leagues has only had minor implications but this is ever increasing. Same goes for SA and more so Australia.

Rugby has an awkward situation where out of the nations that lead the game a good few of the top nations populations are under five million, or rugby is not the top sport, or the nations gdp is not in the top ten in the world. These nations have to compete to retain players against three predominant nations who are all in the top ten gdp, have populations over 60m people and despite rugby not being number 1 sport the national sides and clubs have huge followings.

If we want to keep rugby’s traditional value of club and international competition in all nations then the dominance of the English, French and Japanese club rugby buying power has to be addressed else rugby will be but a feeder to those three leagues elsewhere in the world.

Dont see it as an issue really. Its up to the clubs and unions involved. I'm yet to see a wage cap which cant be sidestepped.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Dont see it as an issue really. Its up to the clubs and unions involved. I'm yet to see a wage cap which cant be sidestepped.

Do you understand why nations other than England France and Japan might be worried about the future of their domestic game if wealthier leagues consume all their best players?

Wage caps are easy to monitor and are monitored well in most nations. Maybe a limit in foreign players per team would be the easiest way.

maestegmafia wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Dont see it as an issue really. Its up to the clubs and unions involved. I'm yet to see a wage cap which cant be sidestepped.

Do you understand why nations other than England France and Japan might be worried about the future of their domestic game if wealthier leagues consume all their best players?

Wage caps are easy to monitor and are monitored well in most nations. Maybe a limit in foreign players per team would be the easiest way.

Already exists in the Prem.

And the main wage caps in France and england are seemingly easy to navigate and almost worthless. Yes I understand other leagues may be worried that they arent attractive. I dont overly mind. Find ways to make players want to stay rather than try to name them from moving is the best way. Ireland are very good at it.

No 7&1/2 wrote:And the main wage caps in France and england are seemingly easy to navigate and almost worthless. Yes I understand other leagues may be worried that they arent attractive. I dont overly mind. Find ways to make players want to stay rather than try to name them from moving is the best way. Ireland are very good at it.

Financially only three leagues can afford to run at the budgets found in France, England and Japan.

I understand you don’t care, probably because you don’t see the long term impact on the game as a whole.

maestegmafia wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:And the main wage caps in France and england are seemingly easy to navigate and almost worthless. Yes I understand other leagues may be worried that they arent attractive. I dont overly mind. Find ways to make players want to stay rather than try to name them from moving is the best way. Ireland are very good at it.

Financially only three leagues can afford to run at the budgets found in France, England and Japan.

I understand you don’t care, probably because you don’t see the long term impact on the game as a whole.

I think you're overplaying the issues. There is a player drain and that hasn't changed in nearly 20 years. Some players leave their home nation swiftly in search of adventure and larger salaries and some stay at home for the bulk if not all of their careers. Generally players move towards the end to gain a bit of life experience and a last hoorah and pay cheque before retirement.

I don't think you will grow the game by forcing players to remain in their native country forever and banning imports. That will swiftly make the sport vanilla and dull. It will also kill the sport in developing nations.

I can't see how it impacts on traditional values of club comps or international s that's true.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Van Rensburg - centre
Robert du Preez - flyhalf
Faf de Klerk - scrum half
Jono Ross - backrow
Jean-Luc du Preez - backrow
Dan du Preez - utility forward
Lood Dr Jaeger - lock
Coenie Oosthuizen - prop
Akker Van Der Merwe - hooker

That's the Sale list, mainly pilfered from the Sharks.

That’s some team they could have next season. Aren’t Gloucester the next ones with the largest SA contingent?

Marias - hooker
Dreyer - prop
Grobler - lock
Mostert - lock
Ackerman - backrow
Kriel - backrow

So not as many as you would assume for Gloucester.

Maes, that's a very negative view on playing the game. Traditionally rugby players have travelled and played wherever life took them. The first AB captain was Irish and London Welsh had a great team of exiles back in the day. In the modern game trying to force players to stay in their respective nation will only benefit tier 1 international teams there is no benefit for anyone else. The international rugby board agreeing an expanded insurance scheme to cover players in training squads and games so that clubs don't suffer the risk from international call ups would increase availability.

Not much, but almost a full pack if they wanted to.

Ok let’s look at this from the opposite perspective.

Do you think having so many foreign players in the Top 14 and Premiership have made the England or France international sides better...? Particularly if you remove any residency qualified players?

From the point of England we now have a team which is as good as any since 03. I dont know why youd want to remove guys like the vunipolas from that though.

No 7&1/2 wrote:England we now have a team which is as good as any since 03.

England world rankings 2003 - 1st
England world rankings 2019 - 4th

I'm, sorry, but this English side is nowhere near where Martin Johnson's side were when they won the world cup, and to be honest, I have not seen a better pack of forwards ever, since the pack that England had circa 2000-2003.

Back then, England were beating the SH giants home and away, and that is when they were all as good as each other.

I have to respectively disagree with your comment.

As any since 03. Deliberately left out the comparison to the team which won the world cup for a couple of reasons. I didn't watch rugby extensively at the time so I could say if they are as good or not. I dont pay the rankings too much attention tbh. Dont really tell you much in terms of comparison across time periods certainly.
So you can disagree but you're doing so for a point I haven't made.

No 7&1/2 wrote:As any since 03. Deliberately left out the comparison to the team which won the world cup for a couple of reasons. I didn't watch rugby extensively at the time so I could say if they are as good or not. I dont pay the rankings too much attention tbh. Dont really tell you much in terms of comparison across time periods certainly.
So you can disagree but you're doing so for a point I haven't made.

In the professional era that England team that won the world cup is the only NH team to beat SH teams away repeatedly (not a once off)

They were good not lucky like some NH teams have been since

Brendan wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:As any since 03. Deliberately left out the comparison to the team which won the world cup for a couple of reasons. I didn't watch rugby extensively at the time so I could say if they are as good or not. I dont pay the rankings too much attention tbh. Dont really tell you much in terms of comparison across time periods certainly.
So you can disagree but you're doing so for a point I haven't made.

In the professional era that England team that won the world cup is the only NH team to beat SH teams away repeatedly (not a once off)

They were good not lucky like some NH teams have been since

That England team is probably the best NH team I am likely to see in my lifetime, they were rightly ranked no.1 in the world. It's easy to dismiss the rankings when they do not suit your agenda. Weren't England 2nd or 3rd not so long ago and we were being told that the rankings were a true reflection of where a nation was ? Wales were about 6th or 7th.

The rankings are the only way you can gauge a national team. The only team Wales have not beaten in the top 10 over the last about year and a half, are above them, which is about right. You only get up to the top by consistently winning, something only Wales and New Zealand have achieved lately. But these runs have to come to an end.

Not by me LD. If you think they are definitive that's fine. You're wrong.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not by me LD. If you think they are definitive that's fine. You're wrong.

Well, you better get in touch with WR then:-

1 (1) NEW ZEALAND 92.54
2 (2) WALES 89.96
3 (3) IRELAND 88.69
4 (4) ENGLAND 86.27
5 (5) SOUTH AFRICA 85.30
6 (6) AUSTRALIA 81.68
7 (7) SCOTLAND 80.17
8 (8) FRANCE 79.42
9 (9) FIJI 77.95
10 (10) ARGENTINA 77.05

https://www.world.rugby/rankings/mru?lang=en

World rugby's rankings, not mine, so I am not wrong. Or are you going to dismiss facts to suit your agenda, again ? I will give it, there is not much in the rankings between 2nd and 5th, but what cannot speak, cannot lie.

I'm not sure you're following. Rankings created by world rugby exist. I dont think it follows that fiji are better than Argentina though. You disagree.
It side steps the whole point in saying that englands quality is not being dented by clubs having foreign players.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm not sure you're following. Rankings created by world rugby exist. I dont think it follows that fiji are better than Argentina though. You disagree.
It side steps the whole point in saying that englands quality is not being dented by clubs having foreign players.

Well they just be the NZ Moari, when was the last time Argentina beat them ?

Not a clue.

Also, Fiji's last game against a side from the top 10 was a win against France, last autumn. The same side that beat Argentina a week before.

Ok. That's great. And? Is this you saying that France and england are suffering international woes due to clubs playing foreigners. Cant see it for england.

Or blowing the point of Maes out of the water as fiji have very few players playing at home?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ok. That's great. And? Is this you saying that France and england are suffering international woes due to clubs playing foreigners. Cant see it for england.

It's a point worth considering, non qualified players in key positions at the English clubs.

And that was what he was saying. Hence this is england is as good as there has been since 03. If theres a lack.of quality I can see it.

No 7&1/2 wrote:And that was what he was saying. Hence this is england is as good as there has been since 03. If theres  a lack.of quality I can see it.

Well there are welsh players playing for English clubs, in key positions that will not be playing for England for a start, not to mention players from other countries, like this thread has suggested, South African taking up key positions, it cannot be good for the national side.

Which players? Who are they keeping out? Why would jones not pick players he thinks are good enough even if their clubs think they arent?

Well, there is all these for a start:-
Van Rensburg - centre
Robert du Preez - flyhalf
Faf de Klerk - scrum half
Jono Ross - backrow
Jean-Luc du Preez - backrow
Dan du Preez - utility forward
Lood Dr Jaeger - lock
Coenie Oosthuizen - prop
Akker Van Der Merwe - hooker

Scrum half and fly half are pretty key positions, also, thinking about it, you have Dan Biggar at Northampton, Rhys Preistland at Bath that's three clubs with NEQ fly halves just off the top of my head.

So they have 9 other clubs to choose a fly-half from then.

So who are these players they are keeping out. Who should be being given a chance and why doesn't jones just select them if they are good enough? Presumably you think England should be riding much higher in the rankings you hold dear? Do.you not think it really has limited impact given England still have an abundance of quality too many players already there for limited spaces? It's not like we have 4 teams then clubs signing the likes ofnunderholl or Morgan as relatively recent english examples. Wales would struggle. England with all their clubs? No.

mikey_dragon wrote:So they have 9 other clubs to choose a fly-half from then.

I don't know, do they all have EQ fly halves ?