Did the IRFU fail to manage BODs career?

The Southern Hemisphere rugby unions have long been pioneers of the game.

They have led the way in innovations on field (inventing various novel scrum formats, redefining the wing/fullback, inventing the flat attack, the umbrella defence and cross-code innovation from rugby league) and off the field (inventing the rugby World Cup and designing and pushing through most of the ELVs to save the game from stagnation and loss if participation from both young players and fans). 

Do the northern unions need to, if not find innovations of their own, then copy southern innovations more quickly?

For example, would the recent BOD debacle have occurred if his career had been managed more appropriately? The NZRU template in treatment of All Blacks stars might point the way. Did BOD need a sabbatical to lengthen his career sufficiently so he might have had gas in the tank for one last Lions test? Did he need to sit out club rugby in order to lead Ireland in 2015?

One also needs to look at Wilkinson, the second greatest player produced in NH rugby. He was allowed to train and work himself into the ground until his body was a wreck, missing the best years of what should have been a stellar career.

I also refer you to Gavin Henson. Who could have been the greatest Welsh player since JPR. Lost to the game because if poor player management.

Now, what can be done collectively by the northern unions to prevent player burn out and media assasination?
.I think a return to the days when NH unions sent half rate teams down south is out of the question. Do what gives? And how can this be organised in light if the unhealthy club/country relationship?

The All Black template doesn't fit our B&I paterns. The non-B&I nations have a four year patern, and the SH sides also have to factor in a Lions tour every 12 years, where as the B&I sides really a bit more hectic parten as every other year there is a mjor even (Lions or RWC).

Try having to win every game SS! You need to manage your players well to get anywhere close to that.

The big difference with the NH is that club rugby is not managed in the best interests of test rugby whereas test players down south get relief from that. The fact that BOD is still standing given the rugby he's played is testament to his durability.

I dont think you can blame the IRFU...

O'Driscoll really only comes to grief when hes playing for the Lions, and since thats only once every four years its cant be taking that much of a toll on him.

Didn't manage his career properly!

Well he has 125 caps over a span of 14 years in which Ireland have played 160 times which has a representation rate of 78%... now take out games he was rested for etc and that rate will improve.

If we compare him to Jonny Wilkinson it shows how well he has been managed. Over the period their careers have overlapped... June 1999 to the RWC2011 BOD got 113 Ireland caps and JW got 84 England caps.. those teams played 143 and 147 games respectively... so whilst both have been first choice players throughout their career BOD had a play rate of 79% in that period compared to 57% of JW.

Richie McCaw has played 118 matches out of a possible 150 in his career, a 78% rate and Dan Carter 95 out of 136 possible games, a 70% rate and those two have been heralded as poster boys of proper player managment.... and BOD's rate is equal and superior to those two players.

PS - JW is the 2nd greatest player in NH history? Who is the first? Thats a bold statement given past players such as Edwards, Bennett, Johnson, Blanco, McBride, Gibson, Hill etc.

GloriousEmpire wrote:I also refer you to Gavin Henson. Who could have been the greatest Welsh player since JPR. Lost to the game because if poor player management.

Nothing to do with poor player management. He just doesn't have the right temperament as half a dozen clubs have discovered.

Do Zac Guildford and Kurtley Beale suffer from poor player management?

Cyril wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:I also refer you to Gavin Henson. Who could have been the greatest Welsh player since JPR. Lost to the game because if poor player management.

Nothing to do with poor player management. He just doesn't have the right temperament as half a dozen clubs have discovered.

Do Zac Guildford and Kurtley Beale suffer from poor player management?

It is poor management, if someone had taken the teenage Gavin Henson by the scruff of the neck and told him to knuckle down or sod off (back whe he turned down the full welsh team to play fly half in the under 20s) then maybe he would have had a different attitude going forward in his career?

BOD had a long career, in fact there are but a few players that had a career spanning the time he had or the number of tests he has played, so managing his career better?

Can't see how that can even be a question.

Henson is an altogether different scenario. He mismanaged himself.

You can have the best man management set up going... some players just won't respond. Alex Ferguson was known for being a master of it but he lost as many players to their personal issues as he saved.... his method was simply ditching those that in his mind wouldn't conform.

Just because many of the general public would give their right arm for the talents that some players possess doesn't mean these individuals do.

Both BOD & Wilkinson had strong mentors (BOD his father, Jonny - Steve Black) to keep them on the straight and narrow from a young age and help them cope. I don't think Henson had the benefit of this.

Do Zac Guildford and Kurtley Beale suffer from poor player management?

Yes...they both managed to give them too much p?>:ss!

BOD's career has been managed fantastically, to still be playing at his level at his age is testament to the careful management by the IRFU, he has achieved all he could ever realistically achieve in the game, the world cup was never within reach and although he perhaps should have won more six nations that cannot be blamed on him. Players cannot play forever that is a fact of the game but BOD has gone on longer than most mainly because of management; he very rarely plays for Leinster in Pro12 games yet manages to produce regularly for Ireland and in the Heineken cup that is the result of good management.

Wilkinson is a fantastic player and has been for the last decade however he isn't blessed with Dan Carter or Gavin Henson's talent. His ability and performances are a result of him training himself into the ground and come from his obsessive personality. If you read any of his interviews or his autobiography you would be aware that it is his choice to do the extra training and that both club and country have tried to stop him and manage him sometimes to the extent that they placed monitors on him in order to show him the damage he is doing to his body, you can only manage someone so far.

Gavin Henson compares quite well when you consider Zac Guildford, Kurtley Beale and Quade Cooper. No one could stop him quitting for a year, it was his choice in the same way Sonny Bill Williams quitting for RL is his choice.

Jaysus the IRFU can't win. On one hand they are bastids taking players out of the pro 12 the whole time.
Now they are bastids for playing Bod too much!

Bod has been perhaps overplayed a bit at test level, but he hardly plays an away game in the pro 12.
You will not see much of him this year in it either.

If he isn't played in a game v the SH teams they all whinge that we are not playing our best team.

Why are you guys all biting...to the OP wum?

Just because it's posted by a known wummer. Doesn't mean you can't get a productive thread about it.

As long as you are aware of what is going on, who's to say you can't have a decent chat with a 3rd party on the thread.

He does couch his wums in interesting language too. A cut above your normal youtube stuff.

WUM? Moi? Just a concerned citizen of the rugby community.

GloriousEmpire wrote:The Southern Hemisphere rugby unions have long been pioneers of the game.

They have led the way in innovations on field (inventing various novel scrum formats, redefining the wing/fullback, inventing the flat attack, the umbrella defence and cross-code innovation from rugby league) and off the field (inventing the rugby World Cup and designing and pushing through most of the ELVs to save the game from stagnation and loss if participation from both young players and fans). 

I am not sure the SH will receive many thanks for bringing in the ELVs.  

As for cross code innovation, is that code for Australia trying to turn Rugby into League because they cannot scrummage?

Unediable evidence, but just a few examples I might add, if the glorious history of SH rugby innovation. 

We also invented the Giant Winger and the Offload.

fa0019 wrote:Didn't manage his career properly!

Well he has 125 caps over a span of 14 years in which Ireland have played 160 times which has a representation rate of 78%... now take out games he was rested for etc and that rate will improve.

If we compare him to Jonny Wilkinson it shows how well he has been managed. Over the period their careers have overlapped... June 1999 to the RWC2011 BOD got 113 Ireland caps and JW got 84 England caps.. those teams played 143 and 147 games respectively... so whilst both have been first choice players throughout their career BOD had a play rate of 79% in that period compared to 57% of JW.

Richie McCaw has played 118 matches out of a possible 150 in his career, a 78% rate and Dan Carter 95 out of 136 possible games, a 70% rate and those two have been heralded as poster boys of proper player managment.... and BOD's rate is equal and superior to those two players.

PS - JW is the 2nd greatest player in NH history? Who is the first? Thats a bold statement given past players such as Edwards, Bennett, Johnson, Blanco, McBride, Gibson, Hill etc.

All true- but I think it's down to BODs natural durability rather than our player management programme that have seen him have such longevity. He so often plays through injuries and never seems to pay for them by exacerbating them in the process. That said, he is well looked after in Leinster and often rested in minor games at the IRFUs behest but he hasn't had many recurring injuries. There's luck in that too.

Strange idea this. He's played test rugby consistently for 14 years. That's a hell of a long time to play at the highest level. Even had he retired before the Lions tour no-one could fault his longevity. As he didn't he became only the third player ever to make four B&I Lions tours... hardly indicates he hasn't been managed well!

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Jaysus the IRFU can't win. On one hand they are bastids taking players out of the pro 12 the whole time.
Now they are bastids for playing Bod too much!

Bod has been perhaps overplayed a bit at test level, but he hardly plays an away game in the pro 12.
You will not see much of him this year in it either.

If he isn't played in a game v the SH teams they all whinge that we are not playing our best team.

I can never recall SH teams whinging because Ireland didnt play their best team, and O'Driscoll is usually always a member of those teams.

I can't ever recall Ireland purposely sending a scratch team down South. The sabbatical approach could work for Ireland because of the IRFU central contracting system. Though POC is fundamental to the success of Munster it doesn't seem a bad idea to give him say, half the year off in order to prolong his career.

Given the size of the players and the hits these days any player getting north of 100 caps is doing really well - when you have the class of BOD and no crystal ball on when a career threatening injuries might pop up, its difficult to qualify resting them. Hindsight however........

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Jaysus the IRFU can't win. On one hand they are bastids taking players out of the pro 12 the whole time.
Now they are bastids for playing Bod too much!

Bod has been perhaps overplayed a bit at test level, but he hardly plays an away game in the pro 12.
You will not see much of him this year in it either.

If he isn't played in a game v the SH teams they all whinge that we are not playing our best team.

I can never recall SH teams whinging because Ireland didnt play their best team, and O'Driscoll is usually always a member of those teams.

Bingo.If he wasn't there would be questoons asked

The Saint wrote:I can't ever recall Ireland purposely sending a scratch team down South. The sabbatical approach could work for Ireland because of the IRFU central contracting system. Though POC is fundamental to the success of Munster it doesn't seem a bad idea to give him say, half the year off in order to prolong his career.

The poor fecker has hardly played for 2 years and you want him out for 6 months?

You can tell him yourself ok?

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Jaysus the IRFU can't win. On one hand they are bastids taking players out of the pro 12 the whole time.
Now they are bastids for playing Bod too much!

Bod has been perhaps overplayed a bit at test level, but he hardly plays an away game in the pro 12.
You will not see much of him this year in it either.

If he isn't played in a game v the SH teams they all whinge that we are not playing our best team.

 I can never recall SH teams whinging because Ireland didnt play their best team, and O'Driscoll is usually always a member of those teams.

Bingo.If he wasn't there would be questoons asked

 No, More like Bingo....We arent whingers, whether Ireland play their best team or one of their inferior teams.

Ok. you don't like the word whinger and you focused on that. fair enougb.

They would not be so happy then. Is that better?

Its more like you missed the point I was making completely.

Point is we dont care if you play with your best team or not.

Sorry bout that.

What I have heard is that as he is one of the few Irish players the general public down there have heard of down there. There is pressure put on Ireland to show up with him or else you won't be able to sell as many tickets.

I'd never heard that, I didnt realise how hard it was to sell tickets to Irish games.

 Ive been to 2 Irish tests in the last two years. and had never got the feeling that there were ticket sales issues at any of them.

My memory is that the issue over below strength sides grew out of a tour by understrength England and at least 1 tour down under by France. The issue was beginning to impact on gate sales and income and also brought into question the purpose of tests.

Pretty much unions like the NZRU said if you're not going to send test sides we wont bother playing you in Autumn, or we'll reciprocate.

In reality most sides send teams missing the odd player(s). But they are strong enough to be more than credible. If BOD were to miss a tour through "injury" I'm sure most fans would accept it. If the Ireland came down minus 10 1st choice players then there's a potential issue.

I agree if the NZRU is selling tickets to Tests and calling it an International Test, and the ten top players of the visiting country are missing then I think that would justify whinging, its irellevant as to whether Brian o'Driscoll's playing or not,as its more a case legally of misrepresentation or false pretences.

Best thing the NZRU could do in those instances is reduce the ticket price to that of an ITM cup game.

Come on guys everyone has to manage their top players now days. How many games in the next year or two are we going to see all our top available players in the team. Against France we didn't play McCaw and in November we will be without Carter and Smith.

Definitely teams don't send their top players against us - most have done it at one stage for one reason for another but we do the same.

NZ frequently rotated the team in the last decade and so rarely played the best side against the NH. 

It must have been so annoying that they kept winning, without conceding tries...