HEC dead

First topic message reminder :

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/mobile/news/28786.php

At least until ERC and the IRB tell them they're ultra vires.

Interesting times.

A Franglo competition will be even more of a war of attrittion that England won't have the financial resources to win.

ERC member 'kicking up a fuss' at an ERC meeting to which they were not invited? I was surprised that they didn't. I was surprised that they were present only as observers and remained silent whilst the obfuscation was clear before them.

Munchkin wrote:

broadlandboy wrote:SS
The LNR released a statement yesterday that translate almost identical to the PRL statement, a link & translation has been posted on this thread several times.

I think some are interpreting from that statement what best suits their argument. The impression I have is that the French want a competition which is representative of all 6 nations, regardless if it is HEC or some new competition devised by PRL. If any of the Celts, or Italians, make clear that they will refuse any invitations then what do the French do?
The French appear to be saying that, rather than sharing the view of PRL, they will only participate in a competition which doesn't exclude PRL clubs.

That is more how I read it too. A bit of a supportive message to the PRL, whilst not actually a message of open war, which some have take it as.

munkian wrote:A Franglo competition will be even more of a war of attrittion that England won't have the financial resources to win.

It would be very interesting to see how long a competition like that would go on for before it got 'down graded' like the EDF Cup and the games Vrs Cardiff and Swansea back in the rebel years.

Munchkin wrote:

broadlandboy wrote:SS
The LNR released a statement yesterday that translate almost identical to the PRL statement, a link & translation has been posted on this thread several times.

I think some are interpreting from that statement what best suits their argument. The impression I have is that the French want a competition which is representative of all 6 nations, regardless if it is HEC or some new competition devised by PRL. If any of the Celts, or Italians, make clear that they will refuse any invitations then what do the French do?
The French appear to be saying that, rather than sharing the view of PRL, they will only participate in a competition which doesn't exclude PRL clubs.

Just read the press release. It says what is says. They will only play in a competition if it involves the English.

Yes of coursevthey want the Rabo teams but so do the PRL. They just want them in on the basis of all clubs being treated the same. Actually the PRL/LNR offer still treats the Pro12 teams better than the PRL/LNR.

maestegmafia wrote:

broadlandboy wrote:SS
The LNR released a statement yesterday that translate almost identical to the PRL statement, a link & translation has been posted on this thread several times.

SS is right, it is just the same statement re-hashed with the final part missing. It is Spin by the PRL prior to the next meeting... They have done the same prior to every meeting and kicked up a huge fuss when there were meetings that they were not invited to.

If I was a shareholder in an organisation and entitled to a seat on the board I would be pretty ticked off if they held meeting without me. The PRL and LNR are entitled to attend meeting until they leave after having given due notice.

Of couse in the end the meeting backfired because basically the LNR told Rabo to get lost and that they wanted a new deal and it had to include PRL.

Incidentally how is a statement put out by LNR PRL spin. LNR spin maybe, joint PRL/LNR spin maybe but PRL spin?

At the end of the day LNR want a new competition which MUST involve the English and which they would LIKE to involve the Rabo. This is not because they like the English but is down to money. At the end of the day that is down to population which England has and the Celts do not.

I'm guessing it's mostly about posturing prior to the upcoming meeting. The English and French clubs are effectively saying:
1) the current agreement expires
2) we want a change
3) here is what we want
4) you can join us if you want

It just looks like brinkmanship. The Heineken cup works because it has a teams from 6 nations involved. A two nation competition is still going to be a dog as will a 4 team competition. They're still going to have to get back into bed with one another. Either back to the old format, the new one or something else.

I can see a potential split for a year. I can't see SH clubs getting involved. The seasonal split and the effect on international competitions is too great.

Exiledinborders wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

broadlandboy wrote:SS
The LNR released a statement yesterday that translate almost identical to the PRL statement, a link & translation has been posted on this thread several times.

SS is right, it is just the same statement re-hashed with the final part missing. It is Spin by the PRL prior to the next meeting... They have done the same prior to every meeting and kicked up a huge fuss when there were meetings that they were not invited to.

If I was a shareholder in an organisation and entitled to a seat on the board I would be pretty ticked off if they held meeting without me. The PRL and LNR are entitled to attend meeting until they leave after having given due notice.

Of couse in the end the meeting backfired because basically the LNR told Rabo to get lost and that they wanted a new deal and it had to include PRL.

Incidentally how is a statement put out by LNR PRL spin. LNR spin maybe, joint PRL/LNR spin maybe but PRL spin?

At the end of the day LNR want a new competition which MUST involve the English and which they would LIKE to involve the Rabo. This is not because they like the English but is down to money. At the end of the day that is down to population which England has and the Celts do not.

It was actually a meeting held in Paris last year that was to discuss what BT Vision and the PRL were bringing to the table and therefor they were not needed. The PRL made it sound like they were being expelled from further discussions. The RFU were at the meeting.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

munkian wrote:A Franglo competition will be even more of a war of attrittion that England won't have the financial resources to win.

It would be very interesting to see how long a competition like that would go on for before it got 'down graded' like the EDF Cup and the games Vrs Cardiff and Swansea back in the rebel years.

Unlikely because it will involve most of the best players in Europe - all the best French and English and increasingly the best of the other European countries. The talent outflow from Rabo is happening already and this situation will accellerate it if.

I was surprised by the French fans and media's response to this.

On Le Monde, almost all the comments were against the French and English cups forming a comp and against the end of the h cup. What most complained about was the notion that money and greed was ruining the sport. Surprisingly I didn't see the complaints that the English fans throw out about the unfairness of the way things are.

More surprisingly in SudOuest the leading article about this was not only against this development it suggested that some leading figures in the league would be in favour of extending the Top 14 to 16, adding an international and having no club competition with the English. I'm not sure why exactly, that wasn't discussed. But this third option is a possibility. Perhaps they don't think the fans would buy into a comp with the English alone but would gobble up more Top 14.

http://www.sudouest.fr/2013/09/11/danger-sur-l-europe-1164985-5103.php

Nigel Wray:

"It was inevitable, it has to happen," Wray told ESPN.

"It is a Union competition, set up by the Unions, fair enough. But it is the clubs taking part in it and it's hugely important to the clubs. We want it to be a club-controlled competition.

"In addition, under the current structure, the two nations - France and England - who provide the vast majority of the revenue are permanently out-voted by the four other nations. In that system, you have to leave if you want to change something."

It's all about CONTROL and MONEY

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:It's all about CONTROL and MONEY

Well done, that is how Businesses work.

Good quote that As, shows how the ERC functions. The Rabo Unions hold a monopoly on votes and vote as a block negating any agenda other than their own. Hence why the Rabo want status quo and why England and France want change.

The tournament needs a shake-up. Good on the English and French for looking to freshen things up a bit.

Real shame all this. Sounds like I'll no longer get to spend £50 watching Edinburgh getting pumped in Europe anymore.

It's going to be interesting to see how this gets resolved.

Intotouch wrote:I was surprised by the French fans and media's response to this.

On Le Monde, almost all the comments were against the French and English cups forming a comp and against the end of the h cup. What most complained about was the notion that money and greed was ruining the sport. Surprisingly I didn't see the complaints that the English fans throw out about the unfairness of the way things are.

More surprisingly in SudOuest the leading article about this was not only against this development it suggested that some leading figures in the league would be in favour of extending the Top 14 to 16, adding an international and having no club competition with the English. I'm not sure why exactly, that wasn't discussed. But this third option is a possibility. Perhaps they don't think the fans would buy into a comp with the English alone but would gobble up more Top 14.

http://www.sudouest.fr/2013/09/11/danger-sur-l-europe-1164985-5103.php

havent found any article on the le monde website. am not surprised by the type of comments you mention though. mainly lefties would post there
the other article has a quite neutral tone, not really taking sides. people are not too worried here. no european cup is better than a devalued cup and at least means more time for resting players and possibly more internationals as well. Too many games is what french rugby followers are worried of. money is secondary I reckon so not quite the English standpoint.
also, moving from 14 to 16 clubs would work on the short term but would create issues once the european cup is back.

If it is a Union competition why have non eligible players in Union teams?

Exiledinborders wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

munkian wrote:A Franglo competition will be even more of a war of attrittion that England won't have the financial resources to win.

It would be very interesting to see how long a competition like that would go on for before it got 'down graded' like the EDF Cup and the games Vrs Cardiff and Swansea back in the rebel years.

Unlikely because it will involve most of the best players in Europe - all the best French and English and increasingly the best of the other European countries. The talent outflow from Rabo is happening already and this situation will accellerate it if.

I can't really say that any new French/English competition would be more a benefit to those nations, and neither can you. We just don't know, although on probability it will likely attract less viewing figures.
The 'talent outflow from the Rabo'? Some players go where the money is. Who is to say that in this new competition the PRL propose, they won't lose more players to the T14? Maybe it is France which will attract 'all the best'?  If it was to happen as you suggest, it really would be following in the footsteps of soccer, and it would be to the detriment of individual nations, and European rugby as a whole, I believe.
The PRL are already in bed with BT. Maybe it's in their interests, financially, to scupper the HEC, and fashion a competition after their own image?

Exiledinborders wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

munkian wrote:A Franglo competition will be even more of a war of attrittion that England won't have the financial resources to win.

It would be very interesting to see how long a competition like that would go on for before it got 'down graded' like the EDF Cup and the games Vrs Cardiff and Swansea back in the rebel years.

Unlikely because it will involve most of the best players in Europe - all the best French and English and increasingly the best of the other European countries. The talent outflow from Rabo is happening already and this situation will accellerate it if.

Not wanting to sound bitter, or any other thing that I will be accused of for saying this, but IF it were just an English/French cup witht he top ten Jeff and T14/T16 teams in it, then I would be willing to bet that the French would tend to be the top sides in it, and the Jeff sides would be strugglingto keep up. And in past instances when the English have been in competitions when they have not had the assendancy they have tended to go down the route of either ending the competition (the games versus the welsh rebels, and now the HEC) or they have taken to fielding weaker sides in order to concentrate on bigger and better things (the welsh rebels, and Powergen/EDF/LV=).

On the other hand it could end up with the top Jeff teams will be safe enough in the Jeff to secure qualification (anything above bottom two), and then concetrate more on the Fr-Anglo Cup (like the Rabo teams are accused of). I doubt the French will ease of in the T14/16, so then this could also lead to the same issues of easy qualification making the HEC (or Fr-Anglo Cup) a bit of a joke as some teams will have the advantage of having an easier national league.

Another issue would be that it could be detremental for the Jeff if the clubs, especially lower level clubs like Wuss, LI and Co., have to try and buy in players just to be able to compete with the French.

As wrote:It's all about CONTROL and MONEY

And change, As. And I don't mean loose change (before anyone asks).

Too many weak teams imo. Irrespective of leagues/Unions.

Why are the 6Ns ring-fenced in their own cartel when most posters appear to agree that the pinnacle of the game and its principal domestic driver is on the International field? Now that's greed and jealosy of acquired/inherited power.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:

As wrote:It's all about CONTROL and MONEY

And change, As. And I don't mean loose change (before anyone asks).

Too many weak teams imo. Irrespective of leagues/Unions.

Why are the 6Ns ring-fenced in their own cartel when most posters appear to agree that the pinnacle of the game and its principal domestic driver is on the International field? Now that's greed and  jealosy of acquired/inherited power.

Would a 20 team comp, featuring only Jeff and T14/16 sides be any better strengthwise? I think there would be some monumentous miss matches in there.

in the event the HC is dumped, you are unlikely to see an increased import of top players into France. if anything it will be the oppposite as with a lighter calendar (less injury cover), less income and less competitive games, what team will need to have 5 top class props or 7 ex international backrowers? none *

* appart from Toulon of course

beshocked wrote:Welshmushroom share of profits is a big bone of contention.


I don't look at Edinburgh's squad and think wow - that's a home grown squad!

In a squad of 38 - 13 are foreign.

I think something like 75% of the squad being home grown could work.

In regards to salary cap I would like to see a level set throughout Europe that no team will go above.  £4 million would mean we go down. Can't see that happening. Plus getting agreement from the French would be impossible.

Mickado you mean just Leinster and Munster. Both these sides are very good but they are only two teams compared to the 11 who qualify from the Pro12.

I have already said that 6 English sides have win rates around 60%.

In the English and French models 75% couldn't work. Part of the logic being that only HC participating teams would have to abide by this so when they return to their domestic tournaments the risk of relegation would be even more dangerous as the other 6 English sides/ 8 French sides, wouldn't have to abide by the European quota and therefore be able to select foreigners (of higher calibre) at less money. So essentially you would then be diminishing the chances of them qualifying the following year.

Regarding the CAP yes it would mean you would go down but Welsh Regions are currently capped at 3.5 million so in order to level the spending playing field you would have to come down to the level of spends of the lowest qualifying Pro 12 team in order for it to be fair.

This whole argument regarding unfair advantage is a joke. Toulouse have a budget 5 times bugger than the Ospreys. In essence they could in fact choose to buy 5 times as many players, thus giving them plenty of selection and resting periods. The fact they spent their money so unwisely seems to not be a talking point. Do people really think Pro 12 sides have an advantage when you consider the bigger playing budgets of other squads? I fail to see how it appears to be our fault that Europe's elite are paying over the odds to assemble the best teams and then have the audacity to moan that we rest our players which gives us an advantage. Here's a thought, how about you don't sign players like George North and buy 2 wingers with his pay. That way they can split the work load.

Welshmushroom wrote:

This whole argument regarding unfair advantage is a joke.  Toulouse have a budget 5 times bugger than the Ospreys.  In essence they could in fact choose to buy 5 times as many players, thus giving them plenty of selection and resting periods.  The fact they spent their money so unwisely seems to not be a talking point.  Do people really think Pro 12 sides have an advantage when you consider the bigger playing budgets of other squads?  I fail to see how it appears to be our fault that Europe's elite are paying over the odds to assemble the best teams and then have the audacity to moan that we rest our players which gives us an advantage.   Here's a thought, how about you don't sign players like George North and buy 2 wingers with his pay.  That way they can split the work load.

Here here... Well Said

In club rugby or sport etc it doesn't matter how much money you have, only how much money you have relative to your competitors.

Without the HC how will the Rabo teams survive? It will almost certainly drastically cut their budget... no one in the Rabo can be described as flush with cash. Players have salary expectations...  if they go to England they will be able to earn more, both as seniors and juniors so they will have to at least try and keep up with paying market rates.

Wales and Scotland in particular are already suffering... lets say they lose a further 20% funding... what happens to the domestic game then?

It will have its impacts... 20% reduction to a union or the franchises will probably hit grassroots hard. How will that impact further generations of players and their development?

I think going it alone will be very difficult for the Rabo.

fa0019 wrote:In club rugby or sport etc it doesn't matter how much money you have, only how much money you have relative to your competitors.

Without the HC how will the Rabo teams survive? It will almost certainly drastically cut their budget... no one in the Rabo can be described as flush with cash. Players have salary expectations...  if they go to England they will be able to earn more, both as seniors and juniors so they will have to at least try and keep up with paying market rates.

Wales and Scotland in particular are already suffering... lets say they lose a further 20% funding... what happens to the domestic game then?

It will have its impacts... 20% reduction to a union or the franchises will probably hit grassroots hard. How will that impact further generations of players and their development?

I think going it alone will be very difficult for the Rabo.

I think the dramatic economic effect that this would have on three leading rugby nations is the reason that the IRB will get involved.

maestegmafia wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:

This whole argument regarding unfair advantage is a joke.  Toulouse have a budget 5 times bugger than the Ospreys.  In essence they could in fact choose to buy 5 times as many players, thus giving them plenty of selection and resting periods.  The fact they spent their money so unwisely seems to not be a talking point.  Do people really think Pro 12 sides have an advantage when you consider the bigger playing budgets of other squads?  I fail to see how it appears to be our fault that Europe's elite are paying over the odds to assemble the best teams and then have the audacity to moan that we rest our players which gives us an advantage.   Here's a thought, how about you don't sign players like George North and buy 2 wingers with his pay.  That way they can split the work load.

Here here... Well Said

Dead on. Northampton played Leinster in a pre-season friendly a few weeks back and had a virtually full strenght team out, by the end of the season they'll all be bollixed and JM will be moaning about how Rabo players are rested for unimportant games...

Actually if the WRU are smart they will actually play some fundraising International rugby to make the short fall up. Without at least 6-9 weeks of HC rugby in the calendar they could probably play 3 matches and make up the difference. No real need to panic as people will go watch the National side play. It would also actually mean our top pro's would probably be playing 3-6 less matches a year so that would make them available for additional games in the Pro 12 which could spark extra interest from fans in the league.

By contrast England & France will flog their pro's and the Anglo/French tournament format, putting both their national sides at a even further disadvantage at international level, which im sure will delight the RFU and FRU

fa0019 wrote:In club rugby or sport etc it doesn't matter how much money you have, only how much money you have relative to your competitors.

Without the HC how will the Rabo teams survive? It will almost certainly drastically cut their budget... no one in the Rabo can be described as flush with cash. Players have salary expectations...  if they go to England they will be able to earn more, both as seniors and juniors so they will have to at least try and keep up with paying market rates.

Wales and Scotland in particular are already suffering... lets say they lose a further 20% funding... what happens to the domestic game then?

It will have its impacts... 20% reduction to a union or the franchises will probably hit grassroots hard. How will that impact further generations of players and their development?

I think going it alone will be very difficult for the Rabo.

Indeed fa, so effectively the PRL are holding the CUs and Italy over a barrel and telling them that the future of the game in their countries are in doubt unless they do exactly what the PRL want  

As I understand it the Rabo unions subsidise to clubs. (to a lesser degree in Wales). One solution would be to expand the autumn series so that the respective unions can generate more money which they in turn pass onto the regions/provinces. This would be a sticking point (but not insurmountable) in Wales but would work in other nations. Also the Rabo could be redesigned and given that without HEC the best players in the celtic nations would be playing week in week out the would be no issue with consumers paying to see 2nd string teams that has been mooted.

The alternative, which is essentially to hand control of European rugby over to a handful of big club owners in France and England would be much more detrimental to the Celtic unions and I can't see them following PRL .

This is what it comes down to the ERC and Rabo need the English and French more than they need them, yet the Rabo/ERC don't want to lose the power they have over England and France.

That kind of relationship will never work, so the HC is finished.

Scrumpy wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:It's all about CONTROL and MONEY

Well done, that is how Businesses work.

It's a Sport, numpty, and you can't dissociate the pro game from the amateur game - they are inextricably linked. The unions provide that link and should be left to manage the game in the best interests of all. You can attempt to adopt your Darwinian approach to rugby if you like, but their lie   Alternatively you could adopt a mature approach that we all sink or swim together and that our mutual interests and the interests of Rugby as a whole are far better served by trying to get a deal that works for everyone and not simply having the PRL get its own way

But PRL have a far better deal on the table, and I'm afraid rugby is now a business those who hang onto the ideas and views of the amateur era will be left behind, and rightly so.

My question to the English rugby fans is, do you want rugby to turn into soccer? I.e. dying international scene and only a handful of clubs with money and the rest scraping the barrel or just going under.

Standulstermen wrote: One solution would be to expand the autumn series so that the respective unions can generate more money which they in turn pass onto the regions/provinces. This would be a sticking point (but not insurmountable) in Wales but would work in other nations.

Not sure how this would work. I'm presuming that it would involve non 6 nations sides. The RC teams will no longer play more than 3 games. Additionally many sides (PI teams, Georgia, etc) need the release of top players from clubs (usually French) outside the international window.

Scrumpy wrote:But PRL have a far better deal on the table, and I'm afraid rugby is now a business those who hang onto the ideas and views of the amateur era will be left behind, and rightly so.

The best never get left behind.  The English and French go it alone...that doesn't make them the best.  And market pressure will force them yet again to prove it against the 'best' of Pro12.  
Back to a version of 'HEC'.  Back to square one.  I believe we should all allow that process to happen.  Allow the English and French to carry through their separatist plans and then watch them try to organise another yearly competion between the best of those two leagues and the best of Pro12.

Scrumpy wrote:But PRL have a far better deal on the table, and I'm afraid rugby is now a business those who hang onto the ideas and views of the amateur era will be left behind, and rightly so.

The PRL have a far better deal on the table for English and French clubs. There in lies the nub of the issue.

blackcanelion wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:But PRL have a far better deal on the table, and I'm afraid rugby is now a business those who hang onto the ideas and views of the amateur era will be left behind, and rightly so.

The PRL have a far better deal on the table for English and French clubs. There in lies the nub of the issue.

We are not able to confirm this beyond what the PRL 'tell' us, bc

Scrumpy wrote:But PRL have a far better deal on the table, and I'm afraid rugby is now a business those who hang onto the ideas and views of the amateur era will be left behind, and rightly so.

You are really missing the point, and the point is key to the lack of excitement many people feel towards the idea of any European Rugby Competition being run by profit hungry clubs and their organising bodies when they are included already in a union run system.

The most important factors are forming a tough and exciting competition that represents the best of European rugby.

The underhand nature of private negotiation and wishing to throw existing rugby out the window thus destroying the ability for the professional game to continue in four countries is precisely why we can not in the slightest bit trust an organisation like the PRL with the game.

blackcanelion wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:But PRL have a far better deal on the table, and I'm afraid rugby is now a business those who hang onto the ideas and views of the amateur era will be left behind, and rightly so.

The PRL have a far better deal on the table for English and French clubs. There in lies the nub of the issue.

So whats the difference between that and the current HC where by the Rabo teams have the better deal?

Scrumpy wrote:But PRL have a far better deal on the table, and I'm afraid rugby is now a business those who hang onto the ideas and views of the amateur era will be left behind, and rightly so.

So then, more power to the elite few whilst rugby, for the love of rugby, is starved of opportunity, and dies a slow death in presently aspiring nations?....and rightly so...

blackcanelion wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:But PRL have a far better deal on the table, and I'm afraid rugby is now a business those who hang onto the ideas and views of the amateur era will be left behind, and rightly so.

The PRL have a far better deal on the table for English and French clubs. There in lies the nub of the issue.

Says the PRL. No one has seen this deal and it hasn't been shared with the other unions. Why would sign up to something they have no clue what it is. BT have a deal now but when nobody watches the Anglo-French contest (because as has been highlighted their isn't the appetite for it in France) then what happens. Will BT still throw money at something that doesn't bring them additional revenue. No chance

The PRL have nothing...no deal until there is a European element to the money BT Vision are promising them.  BT Vision are promising money for a European event, not writing a blank cheque that PRL can use any way they like.  They have a domestic slice of the BT pie and then money that will be available should BT win a lucrative European competition contract.

That's the issue.  The money isn't English PRL's..it's available to them should they successfully lobby on behalf of BT to have BT as controlling broadcaster of a European event.  PRL are really BT Visions agent....working on its behalf and in line for a substantial fee should their client win out.

A comp between England and France would be dull as feck. No question.

Funny how the people that really matter in rugby i.e. the fans, don't see the current format as an issue.

SecretFly wrote:The PRL have nothing...no deal until there is a European element to the money BT Vision are promising them.  BT Vision are promising money for a European event, not writing a blank cheque that PRL can use any way they like.  They have a domestic slice of the BT pie and then money that will be available should BT win a lucrative European competition contract.

That's the issue.  The money isn't English PRL's..it's avaialable to them should they successfully lobby on behalf of BT to have BT as controlling broadcaster of a European event.  PRL are really BT Visions agent....working on its behalf and in line for a substantial fee should their client win out.

By the way that the PRL have upset the Welsh, Scottish, Irish, Italian, French Unions even the RFU I don't think they have done a very good job of working for BT.

maestegmafia wrote:

SecretFly wrote:The PRL have nothing...no deal until there is a European element to the money BT Vision are promising them.  BT Vision are promising money for a European event, not writing a blank cheque that PRL can use any way they like.  They have a domestic slice of the BT pie and then money that will be available should BT win a lucrative European competition contract.

That's the issue.  The money isn't English PRL's..it's avaialable to them should they successfully lobby on behalf of BT to have BT as controlling broadcaster of a European event.  PRL are really BT Visions agent....working on its behalf and in line for a substantial fee should their client win out.

By the way that the PRL have upset the Welsh, Scottish, Irish, Italian, French Unions even the RFU I don't think they have done a very good job of working for BT.

I know what you mean but I wouldn't be letting BT so easily off either.  They've acted the hidden rat in all this.  They 'offered' gold, silver and jewels to the PRL that they didn't have a right to.  They never came to any other "European' HEC partners to give an overview of an alternative European event.  Never offered the three leagues an equal slice of the info or the offer but crassly used one distinct league to attempt to muscle it's overall European vision through.  Nice marketing ploy there.  Shame so many execs at BT fail to understand the very real political dynamics of rugby in Europe.

the-goon wrote:My question to the English rugby fans is, do you want rugby to turn into soccer? I.e. dying international scene and only a handful of clubs with money and the rest scraping the barrel or just going under.  

This is the exact same question I have. I see what the English and French clubs/money men want. But why are English fans interested in this? Just saying, "its a business etc" doen't answer the feeling, the emotion behind the argument. What is in your bones, what does your love for the game tell you? Do you honestly think its unfair that Irish teams with smaller budgets beat you? That they only win in the HEC because of resting players (from their much smaller playing base)? Why not believe in your own teams? Or can you only win with 5-6 times the salary budget? Or be expelling the Irish all together? And do you even like having all the non-english players in your teams? I know I hate the amount of non-irish in Connacht and cannot wait for us to be at a level where the IRFU holds us to the same standard as other Irish provinces. I do not want Connacht to become Sunderland, Leicester to become Liverpool and Munster Man utd. I want these teams to represent the countryside and cityscape which bred the passion and players that make our game great. Why don't the english fans want this? Why is money the be all and end all?

 

I for one will not miss the HC in its current format, as long as I have the weekly grind of the Jeff I'm happy.

A lost soul