HEC dead

First topic message reminder :

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/mobile/news/28786.php

At least until ERC and the IRB tell them they're ultra vires.

Interesting times.

SecretFly wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

SecretFly wrote:The PRL have nothing...no deal until there is a European element to the money BT Vision are promising them.  BT Vision are promising money for a European event, not writing a blank cheque that PRL can use any way they like.  They have a domestic slice of the BT pie and then money that will be available should BT win a lucrative European competition contract.

That's the issue.  The money isn't English PRL's..it's avaialable to them should they successfully lobby on behalf of BT to have BT as controlling broadcaster of a European event.  PRL are really BT Visions agent....working on its behalf and in line for a substantial fee should their client win out.

By the way that the PRL have upset the Welsh, Scottish, Irish, Italian, French Unions even the RFU I don't think they have done a very good job of working for BT.

I know what you mean but I wouldn't be letting BT so easily off either.  They've acted the hidden rat in all this.  They 'offered' gold, silver and jewels to the PRL that they didn't have a right to.  They never came to any other "European' HEC partners to give an overview of an alternative European event.  Never offered the three leagues an equal slice of the info or the offer but crassly used one distinct league to attempt to muscle it's overall European vision through.  Nice marketing ploy there.  Shame so many execs at BT fail to understand the very real political dynamics of rugby in Europe.

Agree with you there...

wolfball wrote:

the-goon wrote:My question to the English rugby fans is, do you want rugby to turn into soccer? I.e. dying international scene and only a handful of clubs with money and the rest scraping the barrel or just going under.  

This is the exact same question I have. I see what the English and French clubs/money men want. But why are English fans interested in this? Just saying, "its a business etc" doen't answer the feeling, the emotion behind the argument. What is in your bones, what does your love for the game tell you? Do you honestly think its unfair that Irish teams with smaller budgets beat you? That they only win in the HEC because of resting players (from their much smaller playing base)? Why not believe in your  own teams? Or can you only win with 5-6 times the salary budget? Or be expelling the Irish all together? And do you even like having all the non-english players in your teams? I know I hate the amount of non-irish in Connacht and cannot wait for us to be at a level where the IRFU holds us to the same standard as other Irish provinces. I do not want Connacht to become Sunderland, Leicester to become Liverpool and Munster Man utd. I want these teams to represent the countryside and cityscape which bred the passion and players that make our game great. Why don't the english fans want this? Why is money the be all and end all?

Well said

blackcanelion wrote:

Standulstermen wrote: One solution would be to expand the autumn series so that the respective unions can generate more money which they in turn pass onto the regions/provinces. This would be a sticking point (but not insurmountable) in Wales but would work in other nations.

Not sure how this would work. I'm presuming that it would involve non 6 nations sides. The RC teams will no longer play more than 3 games. Additionally many sides (PI teams, Georgia, etc) need the release of top players from clubs (usually French) outside the international window.

Not too sure about that. Ireland, Wales, Scotland and Italy will all be available for extra internationals.

Maybe something like the following would work nicely.

Sept to Nov - Rabo
Nov - AIs (and a weekend off, or 4th AI)
Dec - Rest/Training
Jan - 1st week Rest/Training, rest Wales/Italy/Ireland/Scotland (Rabo based players only) International Friendlies against each other
Feb - March - 6Ns
March - Apr - Rabo

That way the Rabo would be in two blocks, and not the 6/7 blocks it is in now. Also the option of a 4th AI (USA, Canada, Japan etc if need be). And if we could get a few friendlies against each other using just Rabo based players then that should give us four a boost going into the 6Ns, and also encourage players to stay in our countries in order to have a better chance of being selected in case someone else ousts them whilst they are not available.

Yeah I know it is pie in the sky and never happen. But that said I can't realistically see and reason why it couldn't happen.

Would additional meaningless internationals put enough bums on seats? Games against SH teams dont happen every year and offer the chance to see some great players. The 6N has its own dynamics that make it hugely popular. Too many extra games without the quality on one side or history on the other wont make for a popular product

Games against the SH do happen every year and provide massive revenue for the Celtic unions. That's why the WRU play so many AIs. Extending that or even making a separate competition including the 4 Rabo unions wouldn't be impossible. There would be barriers but it is one possible way to go for the Rabo unions

Well, after reading through all this mess i'm shocked that some people seem to think the fault lies with only one side of the fence.

All of them need there heads banging together and forget about there own interests.

I do think all this will make the next 6 nations a spicy encounter.

Scrumpy wrote:I for one will not miss the HC in its current format, as long as I have the weekly grind of the Jeff I'm happy.

Who do Bath have in the Heineken this season anyway? Is the reason you are so keen for change, because you haven't qualified for two seasons or so?

This post was made by Risca Rev who is currently on your ignore list. See the message.

Scrumpy wrote:This post was made by Risca Rev who is currently on your ignore list. See the message.

Sorry beaut, but you wouldn't know what I was posting about unless you read it  

No answer though?

This post was made by Risca Rev who is currently on your ignore list. See the message.

No thanks, I'll pass on that one.

Risca Rev wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:This post was made by Risca Rev who is currently on your ignore list. See the message.

Sorry beaut, but you wouldn't know what I was posting about unless you read it  

No answer though?

Bath are playing the same teams in the HEC as the Dragons if I am not mistaken.

Risca Rev I'm having fish fingers for tea.

wolfball wrote:

the-goon wrote:My question to the English rugby fans is, do you want rugby to turn into soccer? I.e. dying international scene and only a handful of clubs with money and the rest scraping the barrel or just going under.  

This is the exact same question I have. I see what the English and French clubs/money men want. But why are English fans interested in this? Just saying, "its a business etc" doen't answer the feeling, the emotion behind the argument. What is in your bones, what does your love for the game tell you? Do you honestly think its unfair that Irish teams with smaller budgets beat you? That they only win in the HEC because of resting players (from their much smaller playing base)? Why not believe in your  own teams? Or can you only win with 5-6 times the salary budget? Or be expelling the Irish all together? And do you even like having all the non-english players in your teams? I know I hate the amount of non-irish in Connacht and cannot wait for us to be at a level where the IRFU holds us to the same standard as other Irish provinces. I do not want Connacht to become Sunderland, Leicester to become Liverpool and Munster Man utd. I want these teams to represent the countryside and cityscape which bred the passion and players that make our game great. Why don't the english fans want this? Why is money the be all and end all?

No I don't want rugby turning into football but then again I do want to see a competitive club competition with top notch teams.

Do you genuinely think Zebre and Edinburgh for example are two of the best sides in Europe? I know you want to humour them but what's the guarantee they'll actually progress?

Edinburgh for example have had over 10 years of HC rugby - where's the progress? A place in the Amlin might wake them out of their stupor.

I don't think the internationals should be the most important thing like in cricket.

Wales for example are going the other extreme - good international side but clubs under performing. The Irish have the right balance as it stands.

The English have the right balance as it stands. The French are too club orientated as things stand.

To me 6,6,8 is more important than money. It's the structural issues I want sorted. I want more money pumped into the likes of Spanish,Romanian and Russian sides for example.

Scrumpy, the question was: 'Who do Bath have in the Heineken this season anyway? Is the reason you are so keen for change, because you haven't qualified for two seasons or so?'

"This post was made by Scrumpy who is currently on your ignore list. Display this post."

Is what it actually would say, as I've just tried it. But if I were on your foes list, thanks for caring so much to still read my posts babes, otherwise you wouldn't know I was directing a question at you  

Try answering a fair and on topic rugby question though? I fail to see why a Bath fan would be too bothered, when they aren't losing out to one of these teams in the Heineken. Amlin is probably your level nowadays anyway.

I have size 12 feet.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:This post was made by Risca Rev who is currently on your ignore list. See the message.

Sorry beaut, but you wouldn't know what I was posting about unless you read it  

No answer though?

Bath are playing the same teams in the HEC as the Dragons if I am not mistaken.

Which is kind of the point. Funnily enough, the last time Bath were in the Heineken, the Dragons probably deserved to be in there too given they finished top 8 in their league (which I think is the accepted position that people want from the RABO?).

If you're wondering why I solely asked a Bath fan, well I haven't really seen any other Jeff supporter (whose team aren't currently qualifying for the top competition anyway) be so anti the current format. Was just curious as to why.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Risca / Scrumpy - if you can't play nice then just ignore each other, this kiddy stuff is really teadious

I believe I have been asking on topic questions. I am not sure what relevance what somebody is having for tea and the size of their feet has to this thread?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Scrumpy, the question was: 'Who do Bath have in the Heineken this season anyway? Is the reason you are so keen for change, because you haven't qualified for two seasons or so?'

We haven't qualified for it as we haven't deserved to!

So why should other teams be guaranteed a place in the HC when they have played no better, the places should be rewarded to the best teams in the Rabo, T14 and Aviva, all other teams should play in the 2nd tier competition. It's really not that unfair what the English and French clubs want yet the Rabo unions keep voting against it as it benefits them the way it is hence why the Eng and French have to move on.

All parties reaffirm commitment to ERC negotiations
10 September 2013 18:57pm
acc_hctrophies
Despite recent reports, all parties involved in the formulation of a new ERC Accord, including the Ligue Nationale de Rugby (LNR) and Premiership Rugby, have reaffirmed their commitment to the process. A meeting focused solely on the negotiations will be convened by ERC as soon as practicable.

It was agreed at a scheduled ERC Board meeting in Dublin today (Wednesday, 11 September 2013) that ERC would facilitate the discussions and that the current points of difference, including the share of central revenues, qualification and season dates, would all be on the table.

The Board reiterated that European club competitions must be organised by ERC and that any purported cross-border club tournaments needed the approval both of the IRB, and of the relevant Unions who are shareholders of ERC.

Surprise was expressed at the timing and content of yesterday's media announcements by the Ligue Nationale de Rugby (LNR) and Premiership Rugby, and representatives of both bodies were invited to explain their positions.

It was pointed out that there was a range of proposals made by stakeholders, none of which were acceptable to all parties, and it was agreed that the negotiations towards a definitive solution needed to begin again in earnest.
Attendees at today's ERC Board meeting
Jean-Pierre Lux (ERC Chairman)
René Bouscatel (Ligue Nationale de Rugby)
Olivier Keraudren (Federation Française de Rugby)
Philip Browne (Irish Rugby Football Union)
Peter Boyle (Irish Rugby Football Union)
Peter Wheeler (Premiership Rugby)
Roy Headey (Rugby Football Union)
Ian McLauchlan (Scottish Rugby)
Dominic McKay (Scottish Rugby)
Roger Lewis (Welsh Rugby Union)
Stuart Gallacher (Regional Rugby Wales)
Fabrizio Gaetaniello (Federazione Italiana Rugby)

Scrumpy wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Scrumpy, the question was: 'Who do Bath have in the Heineken this season anyway? Is the reason you are so keen for change, because you haven't qualified for two seasons or so?'

We haven't qualified for it as we haven't deserved to!

So why should other teams be guaranteed a place in the HC when they have played no better, the places should be rewarded to the best teams in the Rabo, T14 and Aviva, all other teams should play in the 2nd tier competition. It's really not that unfair what the English and French clubs want yet the Rabo unions keep voting against it as it benefits them the way it is hence why the Eng and French have to move on.

Well said Scrumpy.

So it looks like there has actually been some progress in all these meetings, andy nicol mentions they start with around 40 issues and thats now down to 10.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24049126

Firstly I agree it should be the HC in it's current format but with the 6,6,8 split, 20 teams, 4 pools of 5, top 2 from each into the QF etc.

BUT, even in it's current format the HC still serves up the best games of the year. Munster v Quins last year was an amazing game, and the semi with Clermont was also top draw. Last year we had the semi final with Leinster and Clermont, unreal match, the year before the semi between Leinster and Toulouse, possibly the best game of rugby i've ever seen.

Is all of that worth throwing away so that English and French clubs get more money?

Mickado I don't know what the deal with the money is.

What are the English and French exactly asking for in regards to money? I know there is the impression they want more but how much?

I don't want to see the HC scrapped but I do want a restructure.

Would you also do away with the dropping down into the Amlin beshocked? Like Leinster did last season?

Scrumpy wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Scrumpy, the question was: 'Who do Bath have in the Heineken this season anyway? Is the reason you are so keen for change, because you haven't qualified for two seasons or so?'

We haven't qualified for it as we haven't deserved to!

So why should other teams be guaranteed a place in the HC when they have played no better, the places should be rewarded to the best teams in the Rabo, T14 and Aviva, all other teams should play in the 2nd tier competition. It's really not that unfair what the English and French clubs want yet the Rabo unions keep voting against it as it benefits them the way it is hence why the Eng and French have to move on.

Look at it this way Scrumpy - when the Scots had 4 pro-districts, we only had 2 Heino places - the best two qualified on merit. We've not got the finances to sustain 4 anymore, but the best two (and only remaining two) still qualify on merit - nothing has changed. For Ireland, 3 provinces qualify on merit out of 4. And so on.

For English clubs, there is a guarantee of 6 places between 12 teams, and they qualify on merit

beshocked wrote:Mickado I don't know what the deal with the money is.

What are the English and French exactly asking for in regards to money? I know there is the impression they want more but how much?

I don't want to see the HC scrapped but I do want a restructure.

I think what beshocked was suggesting is decent enough. I don't mind 6,6,8 with the proviso that we need some contingency should the amlinn/HEC winner not make it into the qualifying places. As a for instance in the Rabo because there would need to be 1 team per country you could have a team qualify for the playoffs but not make the HEC the next season.

Perhaps a play off in that situation would be a solution? Either way I think the debate is more to do with money than anything else especially with BT trying to get the PRL to act as their broker

beshocked wrote:Mickado I don't know what the deal with the money is.

What are the English and French exactly asking for in regards to money? I know there is the impression they want more but how much?

I don't want to see the HC scrapped but I do want a restructure.

An interpretation of the proposed money split from walesonline.co.uk:

They (PRL) were also insisting on a change in the way the revenue from European competition was divided, so there should be an even three-way split between the three leagues rather than the current arrangement of 52 per cent going to the Pro12 countries and 24 per cent to them (and the French clubs).

Such a change would see the English and French being the primary beneficiaries from the injection of the new BT cash.

According to reports, the Aviva Premiership and Top14 clubs would each gain around £14m (up from £10.56 to £24m), while the four Pro12 countries combined would get just over an extra £1m (up from £22.8m to £24m).

That would, in theory, work out as around £250,000 a year more for Wales, Ireland, Scotland and Italy or, for example, about £60,000 more for each of the four Welsh regions.

 

i was just wondering what the English fans, that want the HEC over in the format it currently resides, would prefer?

A restructuring of the qualification?

or

A restructuring of the finances?

Which is more important....????

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

beshocked wrote:Mickado I don't know what the deal with the money is.

What are the English and French exactly asking for in regards to money? I know there is the impression they want more but how much?

I don't want to see the HC scrapped but I do want a restructure.

An interpretation of the proposed money split from walesonline.co.uk:

They (PRL) were also insisting on a change in the way the revenue from European competition was divided, so there should be an even three-way split between the three leagues rather than the current arrangement of 52 per cent going to the Pro12 countries and 24 per cent to them (and the French clubs).

Such a change would see the English and French being the primary beneficiaries from the injection of the new BT cash.

According to reports, the Aviva Premiership and Top14 clubs would each gain around £14m (up from £10.56 to £24m), while the four Pro12 countries combined would get just over an extra £1m (up from £22.8m to £24m).

That would, in theory, work out as around £250,000 a year more for Wales, Ireland, Scotland and Italy or, for example, about £60,000 more for each of the four Welsh regions.

 

just goes to show how much extra there getting now eh?

So the other nations just dont want england and france to have more money...

It would be easier to have everyone in it and do away with the Amlin.

nathan wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

beshocked wrote:Mickado I don't know what the deal with the money is.

What are the English and French exactly asking for in regards to money? I know there is the impression they want more but how much?

I don't want to see the HC scrapped but I do want a restructure.

An interpretation of the proposed money split from walesonline.co.uk:

They (PRL) were also insisting on a change in the way the revenue from European competition was divided, so there should be an even three-way split between the three leagues rather than the current arrangement of 52 per cent going to the Pro12 countries and 24 per cent to them (and the French clubs).

Such a change would see the English and French being the primary beneficiaries from the injection of the new BT cash.

According to reports, the Aviva Premiership and Top14 clubs would each gain around £14m (up from £10.56 to £24m), while the four Pro12 countries combined would get just over an extra £1m (up from £22.8m to £24m).

That would, in theory, work out as around £250,000 a year more for Wales, Ireland, Scotland and Italy or, for example, about £60,000 more for each of the four Welsh regions.

 

just goes to show how much extra there getting now eh?

So the other nations just dont want england and france to have more money...

Exactly. £24m for the rabo to support their 12 teams. £24m for the PRL to support their 12 teams. Seems pretty fair to me.

Maesteg,

If it continues I'd rather see restructuring than more money, but then I'm not a club owner losing millions propping the club up. The most obvious solution to me is to play the HEC in one block - then there's no difference in preparation for the matches. I also think the current system of 6 group leaders and 2 best runners up is daft. The format is ridiculous and always has been.

I have to say though that I won't be too sad to see it go. There's currently too much rugby for the top players and at times too little for those coming through. Something has to give, and in my mind the HEC is the best candidate to be cut. As a result, if anything I'd rather see more development type games (like the Anglo Welsh being expanded). Even an increase in the premiership to 14 teams would be better than continuing with the HEC.

Just my view though.

Toadfish wrote:

nathan wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

beshocked wrote:Mickado I don't know what the deal with the money is.

What are the English and French exactly asking for in regards to money? I know there is the impression they want more but how much?

I don't want to see the HC scrapped but I do want a restructure.

An interpretation of the proposed money split from walesonline.co.uk:

They (PRL) were also insisting on a change in the way the revenue from European competition was divided, so there should be an even three-way split between the three leagues rather than the current arrangement of 52 per cent going to the Pro12 countries and 24 per cent to them (and the French clubs).

Such a change would see the English and French being the primary beneficiaries from the injection of the new BT cash.

According to reports, the Aviva Premiership and Top14 clubs would each gain around £14m (up from £10.56 to £24m), while the four Pro12 countries combined would get just over an extra £1m (up from £22.8m to £24m).

That would, in theory, work out as around £250,000 a year more for Wales, Ireland, Scotland and Italy or, for example, about £60,000 more for each of the four Welsh regions.

 

just goes to show how much extra there getting now eh?

So the other nations just dont want england and france to have more money...

Exactly.  £24m for the rabo to support their 12 teams.  £24m for the PRL to support their 12 teams.  Seems pretty fair to me.

When will you feicers learn?!?! The Rabo don't own any teams at all. It's 4 unions!!! Please get this into your thick skulls

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:When will you feicers learn?!?! The Rabo don't own any teams at all.  It's 4 unions!!!  Please get this into your thick skulls

I've always preferred the Socratic method...

 

ERC have just made their statement after the meeting.  Apparently the English and French are still involved in negotiations.  They also stated the ERC have made all participating teams aware that any counter tournament proposal would require Union and IRB sanctioning.  Given at least 4 Unions would file an appeal its hard to exactly see how McCafferty would get this by the IRB committee.

Sounds to me as if the pre statement releases where given to get a response out of the ERC.  Looks like they have come back and said its HC or nothing at all.  Think the Anglo French thing might be dead in the water.  I'm assuming while the PRL and LFR can still arrange their own tournament the IRB ban would impact both France and England National sides who would be banned from any sanctioned matches and immediately relinquish their ranking.  Be interesting to see if the RFU and FRU could actually do anything about this though.

Interesting, so any cross boarder competition needs to be approved by the IRB? ..Well there goes the franglo cup.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:When will you feicers learn?!?! The Rabo don't own any teams at all.  It's 4 unions!!!  Please get this into your thick skulls

I've always preferred the Socratic method...

 

Needs must when dealing with a bunch of Sophists, fES

If the ERC/IRB tries to stop a FRANGLO comp I could see a Restraint Of Trade court case & somehow think the clubs would win in the European Courts

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Toadfish wrote:

nathan wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

beshocked wrote:Mickado I don't know what the deal with the money is.

What are the English and French exactly asking for in regards to money? I know there is the impression they want more but how much?

I don't want to see the HC scrapped but I do want a restructure.

An interpretation of the proposed money split from walesonline.co.uk:

They (PRL) were also insisting on a change in the way the revenue from European competition was divided, so there should be an even three-way split between the three leagues rather than the current arrangement of 52 per cent going to the Pro12 countries and 24 per cent to them (and the French clubs).

Such a change would see the English and French being the primary beneficiaries from the injection of the new BT cash.

According to reports, the Aviva Premiership and Top14 clubs would each gain around £14m (up from £10.56 to £24m), while the four Pro12 countries combined would get just over an extra £1m (up from £22.8m to £24m).

That would, in theory, work out as around £250,000 a year more for Wales, Ireland, Scotland and Italy or, for example, about £60,000 more for each of the four Welsh regions.

 

just goes to show how much extra there getting now eh?

So the other nations just dont want england and france to have more money...

Exactly.  £24m for the rabo to support their 12 teams.  £24m for the PRL to support their 12 teams.  Seems pretty fair to me.

When will you feicers learn?!?! The Rabo don't own any teams at all.  It's 4 unions!!!  Please get this into your thick skulls

So because you are being represented as unions each of your teams needs more money?

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Toadfish wrote:

nathan wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

beshocked wrote:Mickado I don't know what the deal with the money is.

What are the English and French exactly asking for in regards to money? I know there is the impression they want more but how much?

I don't want to see the HC scrapped but I do want a restructure.

An interpretation of the proposed money split from walesonline.co.uk:

They (PRL) were also insisting on a change in the way the revenue from European competition was divided, so there should be an even three-way split between the three leagues rather than the current arrangement of 52 per cent going to the Pro12 countries and 24 per cent to them (and the French clubs).

Such a change would see the English and French being the primary beneficiaries from the injection of the new BT cash.

According to reports, the Aviva Premiership and Top14 clubs would each gain around £14m (up from £10.56 to £24m), while the four Pro12 countries combined would get just over an extra £1m (up from £22.8m to £24m).

That would, in theory, work out as around £250,000 a year more for Wales, Ireland, Scotland and Italy or, for example, about £60,000 more for each of the four Welsh regions.

 

just goes to show how much extra there getting now eh?

So the other nations just dont want england and france to have more money...

Exactly.  £24m for the rabo to support their 12 teams.  £24m for the PRL to support their 12 teams.  Seems pretty fair to me.

When will you feicers learn?!?! The Rabo don't own any teams at all.  It's 4 unions!!!  Please get this into your thick skulls

So because you are being represented as unions each of your teams needs more money?

Welshmushroom wrote:ERC have just made their statement after the meeting.  Apparently the English and French are still involved in negotiations.  They also stated the ERC have made all participating teams aware that any counter tournament proposal would require Union and IRB sanctioning.  Given at least 4 Unions would file an appeal its hard to exactly see how McCafferty would get this by the IRB committee.

Sounds to me as if the pre statement releases where given to get a response out of the ERC.  Looks like they have come back and said its HC or nothing at all.  Think the Anglo French thing might be dead in the water.  I'm assuming while the PRL and LFR can still arrange their own tournament the IRB ban would impact both France and England National sides who would be banned from any sanctioned matches and immediately relinquish their ranking.  Be interesting to see if the RFU and FRU could actually do anything about this though.

We will have to wait and see. ERC can give dire warnings about IRB approval being required, but it may prove difficult to block. That's not to say that the IRB won't block it, but the 4 teams concerned hold less than half the votes at the IRB, and I would imagine that there are official criteria on whether or not a tournament gets approval that probably don't include keeping ERC or it's member unions happy. Even if it were to be blocked I expect lawyers would make a lot of money debating whether or not they could legally do that, not dissimilar to the legality of PRLs rules being quite rightly challenged by London Welsh.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Toadfish wrote:

nathan wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

beshocked wrote:Mickado I don't know what the deal with the money is.

What are the English and French exactly asking for in regards to money? I know there is the impression they want more but how much?

I don't want to see the HC scrapped but I do want a restructure.

An interpretation of the proposed money split from walesonline.co.uk:

They (PRL) were also insisting on a change in the way the revenue from European competition was divided, so there should be an even three-way split between the three leagues rather than the current arrangement of 52 per cent going to the Pro12 countries and 24 per cent to them (and the French clubs).

Such a change would see the English and French being the primary beneficiaries from the injection of the new BT cash.

According to reports, the Aviva Premiership and Top14 clubs would each gain around £14m (up from £10.56 to £24m), while the four Pro12 countries combined would get just over an extra £1m (up from £22.8m to £24m).

That would, in theory, work out as around £250,000 a year more for Wales, Ireland, Scotland and Italy or, for example, about £60,000 more for each of the four Welsh regions.

 

just goes to show how much extra there getting now eh?

So the other nations just dont want england and france to have more money...

Exactly.  £24m for the rabo to support their 12 teams.  £24m for the PRL to support their 12 teams.  Seems pretty fair to me.

When will you feicers learn?!?! The Rabo don't own any teams at all.  It's 4 unions!!!  Please get this into your thick skulls

You and everyone else knows what he means. Stop being so pedantic or was that a diversion tactic?

EDIT: just thinking about this, but are they actual teams? (not to be confused with clubs)

broadlandboy wrote:If the ERC/IRB tries to stop a FRANGLO comp I could see a Restraint Of Trade court case & somehow think the clubs would win in the European Courts

But not everything in sport translates into business/employment law. By the same token a female team could sue the IRB for discrimination in not letting them into the Heineken Cup, and the Rabo teams could sue for discrimination if they are excluded from the completion based solely on not being French or English??? Of course that would be silly, which is why sport is 'exempt' from certain business and employment-themed laws.

It's like Deja vu go back to 98-99 and 06-07 it's the exact same problems qualification, money, broadcaster, powers in the hands of union or club.

Mark Dodson CEO of the SRU has already stated its acceptable to drop at least one team from Edinburgh or Glasgow into the Amlin.

The qualification isn't the sticking point its just a distraction from the real issues for the PRL and to some degree the LNR.  Sky or BT, Pro 12 clubs seem happy with the Sky agreement and more so now that Sky picked up the rights for the Pro 12 or go with the PRL deal with BT which apparently the union/clubs have still to see the full details off.

The PRL have stated they want the money split 33% across the 3 leagues, so the Pro 12 unions would go from 52% down to 33% but how much are BT putting into the PRL and how much are they putting into the ERC, PRL stated the BT was a substantial increase for the league and European tournament but which ever way you try to figure out the % of the deal it's a substantial increase for either the league or European tournament but not both, not unless BT up the amount, seen an article recently which said it would have to be closer to 200 million rather than 152 million for it to be a substantial increase for both competitions.

Posted on May 21, 2013
''Paul Goze, chairman of Ligue Nationale de Rugby, the French Top 14, was also there. This time last year the French clubs joined the English in serving two years notice of their intention to form an alternative tournament based on Premier Rugby’s claim of a £152m deal with BT Vision.
Some leading French figures have voiced private concern at not being given more specific details of that contract. Six years ago after the English clubs thought they had cross-channel support for their last planned breakaway, an eleventh-hour French U-turn left them isolated''.

It's the same problems with who holds the power in rugby, Unions or Private clubs, RFU v PRL, FFR v LNR, WRU v REGIONS.

English clubs had decided to withdraw from the competition in a dispute over the way it was run. Without English clubs, the 1998–99 tournament revolved around France, Italy and the Celtic nations. Sixteen teams took part in four pools of four

Posted on 25 October 2006
''The future of the Heineken Cup could be left hanging in the balance today when a proposal from the Premiership clubs for a greater say in the running of the competition is likely to be rejected, reviving the threat of a breakaway tournament''.

Posted on 10 April 2007
The proposed boycott of next season's Heineken Cup by the leading English and French clubs was branded "absolutely disgraceful" yesterday by the International Rugby Board's chairman, Syd Millar, who has also accused the legendary former French full-back Serge Blanco of trying to destabilise the world game.Rarely, if ever, has such a strongly worded communique emerged from the IRB's Dublin headquarters and there was no disguising Millar's anger at what the board clearly regard as a deliberate challenge to the authority of the sport's ruling body. Far from proffering a diplomatic olive branch, he has warned the rebels to back down and openly queried the motives of the club's wealthy backers.

Posted on 11th April 2007
''The six unions have have proved determined to find a solution, while they also have the support of the International Rugby Board, whose chairman Dr Syd Millar launched an astonishing attack on the Anglo-French clubs earlier this week.
The Anglo-French clubs claim the RFU have reneged on an agreement struck last autumn, something the Twickenham top brass flatly deny.
Both Premier Rugby and LNR blame the RFU's refusal to pass half their ERC shares to the English clubs as the reason for their withdrawal''.

Posted on May 21, 2013
''FFR president Pierre Camou summoned senior representatives of the six competing nations amid signs that the French clubs, far from quitting, are willing to get back to the negotiating table.

Camou, a retired 68-year-old banker, is understood to have backed up his call for the French clubs to get back in line by warning that they will be replaced in Europe if necessary by makeshift French teams chosen on a regional basis''.

Posted on 08 September 2013
ERC chairman Jean Pierre Lux has called on the unions who make up the premier European rugby competitions to prevent the English and French clubs from hijacking the Heineken Cup.

"With our majority shareholders, we can set up a competition for 2014/2015 with whoever wants to compete," he told L'équipe last week. "I'm making my views public now because we
are under pressure from English and French leagues who have financial motives. And the unions cannot let the professional leagues decide instead of them."





Not really surprised the Heineken cup is at deaths door.

allyt2k wrote:It's like Deja vu go back to 98-99 and 06-07 it's the exact same problems qualification, money, broadcaster, powers in the hands of union or club.

Mark Dodson CEO of the SRU has already stated its acceptable to drop at least one team from Edinburgh or Glasgow into the Amlin.

The qualification isn't the sticking point its just a distraction from the real issues for the PRL and to some degree the LNR.  Sky or BT, Pro 12 clubs seem happy with the Sky agreement and more so now that Sky picked up the rights for the Pro 12 or go with the PRL deal with BT which apparently the union/clubs have still to see the full details off.

The PRL have stated they want the money split 33% across the 3 leagues, so the Pro 12 unions would go from 52% down to 33% but how much are BT putting into the PRL and how much are they putting into the ERC, PRL stated the BT was a substantial increase for the league and European tournament but which ever way you try to figure out the % of the deal it's a substantial increase for either the league or European tournament but not both, not unless BT up the amount, seen an article recently which said it would have to be closer to 200 million rather than 152 million for it to be a substantial increase for both competitions.

Posted on May 21, 2013
''Paul Goze, chairman of Ligue Nationale de Rugby, the French Top 14, was also there. This time last year the French clubs joined the English in serving two years notice of their intention to form an alternative tournament based on Premier Rugby’s claim of a £152m deal with BT Vision.
Some leading French figures have voiced private concern at not being given more specific details of that contract. Six years ago after the English clubs thought they had cross-channel support for their last planned breakaway, an eleventh-hour French U-turn left them isolated''.

It's the same problems with who holds the power in rugby, Unions or Private clubs, RFU v PRL, FFR v LNR, WRU v REGIONS.

English clubs had decided to withdraw from the competition in a dispute over the way it was run. Without English clubs, the 1998–99 tournament revolved around France, Italy and the Celtic nations. Sixteen teams took part in four pools of four

Posted on 25 October 2006
''The future of the Heineken Cup could be left hanging in the balance today when a proposal from the Premiership clubs for a greater say in the running of the competition is likely to be rejected, reviving the threat of a breakaway tournament''.

Posted on 10 April 2007
The proposed boycott of next season's Heineken Cup by the leading English and French clubs was branded "absolutely disgraceful" yesterday by the International Rugby Board's chairman, Syd Millar, who has also accused the legendary former French full-back Serge Blanco of trying to destabilise the world game.Rarely, if ever, has such a strongly worded communique emerged from the IRB's Dublin headquarters and there was no disguising Millar's anger at what the board clearly regard as a deliberate challenge to the authority of the sport's ruling body. Far from proffering a diplomatic olive branch, he has warned the rebels to back down and openly queried the motives of the club's wealthy backers.

Posted on 11th April 2007
''The six unions have have proved determined to find a solution, while they also have the support of the International Rugby Board, whose chairman Dr Syd Millar launched an astonishing attack on the Anglo-French clubs earlier this week.
The Anglo-French clubs claim the RFU have reneged on an agreement struck last autumn, something the Twickenham top brass flatly deny.
Both Premier Rugby and LNR blame the RFU's refusal to pass half their ERC shares to the English clubs as the reason for their withdrawal''.

Posted on May 21, 2013
''FFR president Pierre Camou summoned senior representatives of the six competing nations amid signs that the French clubs, far from quitting, are willing to get back to the negotiating table.

Camou, a retired 68-year-old banker, is understood to have backed up his call for the French clubs to get back in line by warning that they will be replaced in Europe if necessary by makeshift French teams chosen on a regional basis''.

Posted on 08 September 2013
ERC chairman Jean Pierre Lux has called on the unions who make up the premier European rugby competitions to prevent the English and French clubs from hijacking the Heineken Cup.

"With our majority shareholders, we can set up a competition for 2014/2015 with whoever wants to compete," he told L'équipe last week. "I'm making my views public now because we
are under pressure from English and French leagues who have financial motives. And the unions cannot let the professional leagues decide instead of them."





Not really surprised the Heineken cup is at deaths door.

This comment gets pushed around, the share for the unions may go down but it's a bigger pot so they get a slight increase. The other two leagues both get a bigger increase that brings to up to the same amount the Pro12 gets.

I'm sure you know this so not sure why im posting it! lol

Griff wrote:

broadlandboy wrote:If the ERC/IRB tries to stop a FRANGLO comp I could see a Restraint Of Trade court case & somehow think the clubs would win in the European Courts

But not everything in sport translates into business/employment law. By the same token a female team could sue the IRB for discrimination in not letting them into the Heineken Cup, and the Rabo teams could sue for discrimination if they are excluded from the completion based solely on not being French or English???  Of course that would be silly, which is why sport is 'exempt' from certain business and employment-themed laws.

If the possible Franglo cup takes money away from the Celtic clubs, debilitating rugby in those countries i think even the IRB would be taking those involved to court on restraint of trade.

Toadfish wrote:
So because you are being represented as unions each of your teams needs more money?

At the ERC table all teams are represented by their Union.

This is the crux of the debate should club rugby be managed by clubs or by Unions.

maestegmafia wrote:

Toadfish wrote:
So because you are being represented as unions each of your teams needs more money?

At the ERC table all teams are represented by their Union.

This is the crux of the debate should club rugby be managed by clubs or by Unions.

That isn't the point at all although I know this is an issue. The point is as of the end of next season there is no agreement in place. Forgetting everything that happened in the past if a deal was put together that meant that every one of the 36 teams that each year has a chance to qualify for the premier European competition received equal funding would this be deemed to be unfair? Surely this is exactly what rugby needs. A secure, guaranteed annual income which is equal to that received by all the competition regardless of whether you qualified? Would that not be a good outcome? If not why not?