HEC dead

by justified sinner Tue 10 Sep 2013, 5:32 pm

First topic message reminder :

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/mobile/news/28786.php

At least until ERC and the IRB tell them they're ultra vires.

Interesting times.

by Toadfish Wed 11 Sep 2013, 5:35 pm

Toadfish wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
Toadfish wrote:
So because you are being represented as unions each of your teams needs more money?
At the ERC table all teams are represented by their Union.

This is the crux of the debate should club rugby be managed by clubs or by Unions.
That isn't the point at all although I know this is an issue. The point is as of the end of next season there is no agreement in place. Forgetting everything that happened in the past if a deal was put together that meant that every one of the 36 teams that each year has a chance to qualify for the premier European competition received equal funding would this be deemed to be unfair? Surely this is exactly what rugby needs. A secure, guaranteed annual income which is equal to that received by all the competition regardless of whether you qualified? Would that not be a good outcome? If not why not?

And might I say also that doesn't require a drop in current funding.

by Poorfour Wed 11 Sep 2013, 5:41 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
Griff wrote:
broadlandboy wrote:If the ERC/IRB tries to stop a FRANGLO comp I could see a Restraint Of Trade court case & somehow think the clubs would win in the European Courts
But not everything in sport translates into business/employment law. By the same token a female team could sue the IRB for discrimination in not letting them into the Heineken Cup, and the Rabo teams could sue for discrimination if they are excluded from the completion based solely on not being French or English??? Of course that would be silly, which is why sport is 'exempt' from certain business and employment-themed laws.
If the possible Franglo cup takes money away from the Celtic clubs, debilitating rugby in those countries i think even the IRB would be taking those involved to court on restraint of trade.

...and be laughed out of court. Given that the English and French clubs served notice on the ERC - in line with its own rules - and are very clear that teams from other nations will be invited to join any new tournament, oh - and have offered the Celtic unions more money rather than less (albeit not much), there ain't much of a legal leg to stand on there. No-one's trade is being restrained.

The ERC's best bet would be a claim that the unions ceded authority to it to organise any cross-border cup, but unless it was set up in a very stupid way (not outside the bounds of possibility), serving notice is likely to trigger clauses that cause the authority to revert to the parent unions.

So the issue would be whether the RFU and FFR are willing to give that authority to the new tournament. They may not, but since the clubs control the players and the RWC will be a year away, they also may not want to provoke a spat.

by Exiledinborders Wed 11 Sep 2013, 5:49 pm

nathan wrote:Well, after reading through all this mess i'm shocked that some people seem to think the fault lies with only one side of the fence.

All of them need there heads banging together and forget about there own interests.

I do think all this will make the next 6 nations a spicy encounter.

Not sure why. Many of the Celtic and Italian players play for French and English clubs. Why would George North be angry at England over this?

by ChequeredJersey Wed 11 Sep 2013, 5:49 pm

Shame, I really like the HEC Sad

Suppose we'd better win it this year then. Should be easy, I hear Clermont away is a gimmee

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 11 Sep 2013, 5:59 pm

It was agreed at a scheduled ERC Board meeting in Dublin today (Wednesday, 11 September 2013) that ERC would facilitate the discussions and that the current points of difference, including the share of central revenues, qualification and season dates, would all be on the table.

The Board reiterated that European club competitions must be organised by ERC and that any purported cross-border club tournaments needed the approval both of the IRB, and of the relevant Unions who are shareholders of ERC.

Well that's that then, surely?

by Standulstermen Wed 11 Sep 2013, 6:21 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
It was agreed at a scheduled ERC Board meeting in Dublin today (Wednesday, 11 September 2013) that ERC would facilitate the discussions and that the current points of difference, including the share of central revenues, qualification and season dates, would all be on the table.

The Board reiterated that European club competitions must be organised by ERC and that any purported cross-border club tournaments needed the approval both of the IRB, and of the relevant Unions who are shareholders of ERC.
Well that's that then, surely?

Im glad someone raised that. Does that suggest that without union approval at erc level (and by that i mean all the unions) there can be no sanctioned cross border event? The only way round that would be if the French and English Unions left the ERC but im not sure there is enough in it for them to do so and risk the wrath of the IRB.

I genuinely am not sure PRL can make good on this new suggestion.

by formerly known as Sam Wed 11 Sep 2013, 6:28 pm

The RFU will do nothing to impede the PRL. You're grasping at straws if you think otherwise. The EPS agreement is due for renewal after the next RWC and they won't risk a major fall out with the PRL before that.

I see Andy Nicol is agreeing with the need for change on the been website.

by Standulstermen Wed 11 Sep 2013, 6:34 pm

Sam but is there not an ambiguity in the above statement in terms of which unions need to agree?

Also the line prior to it where all club competitions must be organised by ERC. The only way round that is the two unions leaving the ERC? Im not sure i just find the wording (as with most things) ambiguous. It certainly is bullish though. It would have been an interesting meeting anyway

by allyt2k Wed 11 Sep 2013, 6:43 pm

Can't see the RFU or FFR pulling out of the ERC, if the PRL and LNR pull out there's still 28 clubs i can see who would like to take there place which right now are fighting tooth and nail just to get TV coverage of league games can't see them turning down a bit of cash and a decent European audience.

by allyt2k Wed 11 Sep 2013, 6:50 pm

This pretty much sums up the whole mess its about Clubs v Unions

Who has the power?

Bringing in a mediator just means things are so bad they ain't talking to each other.

Saracens chairman Nigel Wray
"It was inevitable, it has to happen," Wray told ESPN.

"It is a Union competition, set up by the Unions, fair enough. But it is the clubs taking part in it and it's hugely important to the clubs. We want it to be a club-controlled competition.

"In addition, under the current structure, the two nations - France and England - who provide the vast majority of the revenue are permanently out-voted by the four other nations. In that system, you have to leave if you want to change something.

by Feckless Rogue Wed 11 Sep 2013, 6:59 pm

Well this has woken up the forum. It's terrible for the game of rugby what's happening. I honestly think the The Franglos are following soccers dark path. The rich setting the rules to keep themselves richer than the rest and then buying the best players that the rest produce, to keep themselves successful and keep the money and glory rolling in. Kids in Cardiff and Dublin walking around in Toulon and Saracens jerseys buying BT subscriptions to watch their favourite players play for foreign clubs is the destination of this path. Future Brian O'Driscolls running in five tries for Racing Metro against his impoverished home town team. Jaysus, I can't stand the thought of it.

What do ye hope will happen?
What do ye think will happen?
Realistically, can the teams from the four smaller ~~targets of advertisements~~ Nations stand up to the bully? Or will we have to humiliatingly bend over and like it?

by The Saint Wed 11 Sep 2013, 7:06 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:Shame, I really like the HEC

Suppose we'd better win it this year then. Should be easy, I hear Clermont away is a gimmee

They could be vulnerable now. I'm sure constantly failing in the latter stages of the HEC over a No. of years will take its toll. You'd just need to find a way to hold them in the scrum.

by SecretFly Wed 11 Sep 2013, 7:22 pm

Feckless Rogue wrote:Well this has woken up the forum. It's terrible for the game of rugby what's happening. I honestly think the The Franglos are following soccers dark path. The rich setting the rules to keep themselves richer than the rest and then buying the best players that the rest produce, to keep themselves successful and keep the money and glory rolling in. Kids in Cardiff and Dublin walking around in Toulon and Saracens jerseys buying BT subscriptions to watch their favourite players play for foreign clubs is the destination of this path. Future Brian O'Driscolls running in five tries for Racing Metro against his impoverished home town team. Jaysus, I can't stand the thought of it.

What do ye hope will happen?
What do ye think will happen?
Realistically, can the teams from the four smaller ~~targets of advertisements~~ Nations stand up to the bully? Or will we have to humiliatingly bend over and like it?

Complete summation of the truth...as PRL and their French brothers would have it.

Fewer and bigger sides syphoning off other neighbouring nation's best players.... all other Europeans walking around with a few well funded club shirts on their backs and, of course, the ever present tut tutting excuse of "this is business", "rugby needs to grow", "nationalism is such a burden on the growth of the sport".

Yeah......... ? It is? Well live with it. It ain't going away anytime soon.

by allyt2k Wed 11 Sep 2013, 7:26 pm

Feckless Rogue wrote:Well this has woken up the forum. It's terrible for the game of rugby what's happening. I honestly think the The Franglos are following soccers dark path. The rich setting the rules to keep themselves richer than the rest and then buying the best players that the rest produce, to keep themselves successful and keep the money and glory rolling in. Kids in Cardiff and Dublin walking around in Toulon and Saracens jerseys buying BT subscriptions to watch their favourite players play for foreign clubs is the destination of this path. Future Brian O'Driscolls running in five tries for Racing Metro against his impoverished home town team. Jaysus, I can't stand the thought of it.

What do ye hope will happen?
What do ye think will happen?
Realistically, can the teams from the four smaller ~~targets of advertisements~~ Nations stand up to the bully? Or will we have to humiliatingly bend over and like it?

What do ye hope will happen?

qualification for 20 or 24 teams don't really care about how many groups but minimum of one representative per nation in the top tier

Introduce a third tier

ERC collectively sells the rights to the top tier tournament, clubs/unions can sell there rights for second and third tier games to who ever they want.

longer term agreement

every club/union should be better with a new agreement than any old agreement.

What do ye think will happen?

Pro 12 Unions, PRL, LNR will not back down in there stance because no side will want to show weakness

PRL, LNR walk away, Shares revert back to RFU and FFR weaker teams from second tier French and English leagues enter. monies are reduced but some form of European tournament continues.

PRL and LNR move ahead with a new tournament unions reject it, ends up in court for about a year everybody tries to sue everybody else more and more bickering fans get fed up and attendances drop for all leagues.

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 11 Sep 2013, 7:50 pm

allyt2k wrote:Can't see the RFU or FFR pulling out of the ERC, if the PRL and LNR pull out there's still 28 clubs i can see who would like to take there place which right now are fighting tooth and nail just to get TV coverage of league games can't see them turning down a bit of cash and a decent European audience.

That's a great point. As much as the Aviva and Top 14 sides would like to think that they are rugby in England and France, they're not. There are teams in divisions below them who would bite your hand off if you offered them European cup rugby. Another poster (Asbo) made the point earlier that professional rugby can't be divorced from the amateur and community game and it's so true. Those player numbers we keep hearing about could end up scuppering the PRL's plans.

by Totalflanker Wed 11 Sep 2013, 8:11 pm

Very strange, find myself agreeing with Andy Nicol.

I think the competition needs to be a meritocracy, so no automatic places for pro12.

However where the argument is lost for me on these pages is that if the French and English clubs gain control over in the competition, then we end up in the same position, with the big French and English getting richer/stronger with effectively no chance of relegation from the competition. So automatic places but just by another name. Moreover a dilution of unions and the national game across all of the NH.

Collectively we already struggle enough to win the world cup without giving the SH a further leg up.

by bedfordwelsh Wed 11 Sep 2013, 8:13 pm

SO is it dead or not seems that they can't go it alone officially without IRB sanctioning it and would the IRB do that?

Broadcasters would be very sceptical of getting behind a bootleg tournament

by Artful_Dodger Wed 11 Sep 2013, 8:13 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqvywJkx1PI

by **Notch** Wed 11 Sep 2013, 8:19 pm

It's been the best club competition ever, and it looks like greed and self-interest will mean it's gone.

I think we should have a Heineken Cup tribute thread. So many magical memories.

by Feckless Rogue Wed 11 Sep 2013, 8:43 pm

Nice video dodger. But I can't see it tugging at McCafferty's heart strings. He's a business man, not a rugby man. If he was paid by a certain cola company, he wouldn't see has job as working towards the greater good of fizzy drinks in general. He'd see his job as working towards the profits of who he represents and taking their competitors market share, and crushing them if possible.

For those of us who see rugby as more than just a business, it's not nice to see what's happening.

And for those of us who see fizzy drinks as more than just a business, well we need to get out more.

by Hood83 Wed 11 Sep 2013, 8:49 pm

wolfball wrote:
the-goon wrote:My question to the English rugby fans is, do you want rugby to turn into soccer? I.e. dying international scene and only a handful of clubs with money and the rest scraping the barrel or just going under.
This is the exact same question I have. I see what the English and French clubs/money men want. But why are English fans interested in this? Just saying, "its a business etc" doen't answer the feeling, the emotion behind the argument. What is in your bones, what does your love for the game tell you? Do you honestly think its unfair that Irish teams with smaller budgets beat you? That they only win in the HEC because of resting players (from their much smaller playing base)? Why not believe in your own teams? Or can you only win with 5-6 times the salary budget? Or be expelling the Irish all together? And do you even like having all the non-english players in your teams? I know I hate the amount of non-irish in Connacht and cannot wait for us to be at a level where the IRFU holds us to the same standard as other Irish provinces. I do not want Connacht to become Sunderland, Leicester to become Liverpool and Munster Man utd. I want these teams to represent the countryside and cityscape which bred the passion and players that make our game great. Why don't the english fans want this? Why is money the be all and end all?

Here here (an English fan)

by Artful_Dodger Wed 11 Sep 2013, 8:50 pm

Feckless Rogue wrote:Nice video dodger. But I can't see it tugging at McCafferty's heart strings. He's a business man, not a rugby man. If he was paid by a certain cola company, he wouldn't see has job as working towards the greater good of fizzy drinks in general. He'd see his job as working towards the profits of who he represents and taking their competitors market share, and crushing them if possible.

For those of us who see rugby as more than just a business, it's not nice to see what's happening.

And for those of us who see fizzy drinks as more than just a business, well we need to get out more.

by wolfball Wed 11 Sep 2013, 10:00 pm

The IRB being invoked is essential. That's where it will all come down. Someone said legally the IRB couldn't block the PRL/LNR from starting their own competition. No, but they could expel the RFU and FFR from the IRB and hence test rugby. Its drastic, but the IRB could see that the very survivability of test rugby is being challenged by clubs taking over rugby. Its a hope at least...

Note, I would like to see the following format:

2 irish, 2 Welsh, 1 Scotland, 1 Italy, 5 English, 5 French.
4 groups of 4. 6,5,5. Everyone Takes a hit.

Then Amlin the remaining 6 rabo,7 english,9 french teams=22, add 2 others from other EU countries, 24 teams, 6 pools of 4.

NO DROP DOWN FROM HEC TO AMLIN AFTER GROUP STAGES.

by wolfball Wed 11 Sep 2013, 10:05 pm

beshocked wrote:
wolfball wrote:
the-goon wrote:My question to the English rugby fans is, do you want rugby to turn into soccer? I.e. dying international scene and only a handful of clubs with money and the rest scraping the barrel or just going under.
This is the exact same question I have. I see what the English and French clubs/money men want. But why are English fans interested in this? Just saying, "its a business etc" doen't answer the feeling, the emotion behind the argument. What is in your bones, what does your love for the game tell you? Do you honestly think its unfair that Irish teams with smaller budgets beat you? That they only win in the HEC because of resting players (from their much smaller playing base)? Why not believe in your own teams? Or can you only win with 5-6 times the salary budget? Or be expelling the Irish all together? And do you even like having all the non-english players in your teams? I know I hate the amount of non-irish in Connacht and cannot wait for us to be at a level where the IRFU holds us to the same standard as other Irish provinces. I do not want Connacht to become Sunderland, Leicester to become Liverpool and Munster Man utd. I want these teams to represent the countryside and cityscape which bred the passion and players that make our game great. Why don't the english fans want this? Why is money the be all and end all?
No I don't want rugby turning into football but then again I do want to see a competitive club competition with top notch teams.

Do you genuinely think Zebre and Edinburgh for example are two of the best sides in Europe? I know you want to humour them but what's the guarantee they'll actually progress?

Edinburgh for example have had over 10 years of HC rugby - where's the progress? A place in the Amlin might wake them out of their stupor.

I don't think the internationals should be the most important thing like in cricket.

Wales for example are going the other extreme - good international side but clubs under performing. The Irish have the right balance as it stands.

The English have the right balance as it stands. The French are too club orientated as things stand.

To me 6,6,8 is more important than money. It's the structural issues I want sorted. I want more money pumped into the likes of Spanish,Romanian and Russian sides for example.

But do you not see, even if the HEC is flawed in your eyes, the PRL suggested French/English competition would be a disaster for the very things above you say you want? Where is the money for Spanish sides then? The competitive club competition with the BEST Europe has to offer? if the HEC is flawed, surely you would prefer it in its current form, flawed as it is, to a Franglocup? Is not "winning" the argument by destroying the HEC the embodiment of a hollow victory? Do you think you can beat Irish teams? (Because thats still what it comes down to, not weak Italians and Scots- no, its the too-strong Irish with their sneaky winning ways...)

by maestegmafia Wed 11 Sep 2013, 10:23 pm

So happy to read so many posters talking sense. I just hope some of the posts by the lads who think dissolving the HEC are starting to see some bloody sense.

by Feckless Rogue Wed 11 Sep 2013, 10:25 pm

the-goon wrote:My question to the English rugby fans is, do you want rugby to turn into soccer? I.e. dying international scene and only a handful of clubs with money and the rest scraping the barrel or just going under.

Because a line has been drawn in the sand and people are taking sides and throwing insults (on both sides). English fans are naturally taking the side of their clubs. But McCaffery has been smartly stirring this for months. And I focus on him again because I think it's fair to say that he's one of the main players in this saga.

He's from a business culture in which alpha males play hard ball and get results. "I want this, this and this. It's my way or I'll bust your a$$". I was about to call it the "anglo-saxon" way of doing business. But that would be unfair, since it's a culture that dominates in Ireland and the rest of Britain as well, among others. Whatever you want to call it, it's the culture McCafferty has been immersed in and successful in throughout his career.

I'd suggest that a more Scandinavian consensus based approach would be more suitable for 6 nations trying to get together to play rugby. The meetings can seem endless and decisions are made more slowly. But things aren't decided until there's much more give and take and everyone is on board and moves forward.

Which is all pointless to talk about because the business men are there and know they hold the chips (TV viewers) and they're going to use them to get what they want. And of course they'll repeatedly let their TV viewers know how unfair it and how disadvantaged their teams are and make it "us against them". Not "Right, lets discuss this again tomorrow and see if we can get our visions for rugby's future to converge a little more. Maybe Zebre deserve to be in tier 2 or 3. But maybe every team that takes part in erc comps should get an equal slice of the money pie no matter what tier they're in?"

And for those who think the IRB will expel the French and English from test rugby, don't hold your breath. Remember all those chips (TV viewers). And I don't want this to spill over and ruin the 6 Nations on me too.

by maestegmafia Wed 11 Sep 2013, 10:29 pm

If the English and French were expelled from the six nations for a season you would soon see the RFU and FFR standing up to the clubs and telling them who's boss.

Probably do both nations a world of good.

by doddieman Wed 11 Sep 2013, 10:35 pm

Haven't read all that's been said on this but is it just me that sees the irony in French and English teams claiming things aren't fair due to qualification as pro12 teams can rest players while they have budgets over double what most pro12 teams have and can afford many more elite quality players.

Maybe we should switch to an nfl style process with drafts and set budgets for wages to try and keep teams equal. Might make the tournament fair, equal and more interesting.

by broadlandboy Wed 11 Sep 2013, 10:40 pm

Interesting point made on another forum The ERC doesn't run the LV competition

by Dubbelyew L Overate Wed 11 Sep 2013, 10:54 pm

broadlandboy wrote:Interesting point made on another forum The ERC doesn't run the LV competition

Nor the B&I Cup, nor the World Club 7's, nor the pre-season cross-border friendlies, nor the Bash Street Kids XV tour to the Outer Hebrides, all of which are cross-border european (global for the 7's) matches/competitions. Do you think ERC are telling porkies?
The inevitable conclusion is that IRB ought to expel IRFU, WRU, SRU for dishonesty - seems as reasonable as some of the previous suggestions.

by IanBru Thu 12 Sep 2013, 12:48 am

This is all about fairness and rewarding achievement. Here's what I want, and bear with me:

I want the best four teams from each union to qualify. That's twenty-four teams.

Sure, Scotland only have two teams, but I'd back Melrose or Ayr to give Northampton and Harlequins a good game.

Alternatively, the SRU could sell their extra two spots for £1 million each. The RFU could just stage one of the relevant Heino games at Twickenham to pay for it, charge £15 per ticket, £6.50 for a pint of watered-down IPA and £8 for a bratwurst.

You've got it made in the shade.

by ME-109 Thu 12 Sep 2013, 12:53 am

Lots of brinkmanship but here is a possible outcome....

1. PRL and the French clubs go off and do there own thing.
2. FFR and RFU will NOT get kicked out of the IRB
3. FFR and RFU invite Championship and the next level in France to the European/HC cup, and pick their international team from them (assuming the Top 14 and PRL forbid their player from playing intl - see how many players will go with that...)
4. We get an extended number of internationals as the SANZAR unions will be more than willing to play more games in terms of revenue
5. The Pro 12 is extended becomes the major league in union.

The only possible spanner in the works will be the Welsh Regions as the ones to go bleating after the English...

Does anyone remember Kerry Packer...

As the saying goes
Keep Calm and Carry on...international is still where its at...

Just to note the French clubs will never break away completely....too much clout from the FFR too many municipal stadia etc etc.

by gelodge Thu 12 Sep 2013, 1:28 am

I like many hope we don't see the end of the HC for this Franglo thing and that this is just brinkmanship. I can't say I'm that keen on the survival of those running the ERC though. I think very little of McCafferty and his tactics, but how the hell was it that the last meeting for negotiations was back in May, what have these board members been doing all summer, what has been more important than resolving this issue? Combined with them having seemingly undersold the rights to the competition at a time when a number of the teams are struggling financially and they are increasingly looking like they couldn't organise a p155 up in a brewery, a bunch of old boys more interested in milking their jobs than effectively dealing with what they entail. We need new blood at the top after this debacle has played out.

by nth Thu 12 Sep 2013, 6:34 am

gelodge wrote:I like many hope we don't see the end of the HC for this Franglo thing and that this is just brinkmanship. I can't say I'm that keen on the survival of those running the ERC though. I think very little of McCafferty and his tactics, but how the hell was it that the last meeting for negotiations was back in May, what have these board members been doing all summer, what has been more important than resolving this issue? Combined with them having seemingly undersold the rights to the competition at a time when a number of the teams are struggling financially and they are increasingly looking like they couldn't organise a p155 up in a brewery, a bunch of old boys more interested in milking their jobs than effectively dealing with what they entail. We need new blood at the top after this debacle has played out.

For those who don't remember Lux's 2011 election as ERC president was somewhat controversial

Frenchman Jean-Pierre Lux won last week's vote in Dublin – a decision which was expected to go Wheeler's way with the support of the English clubs, the Rugby Union, and the Welsh and French clubs.

But the vote seems to have been decided by a controversial move by the French Rugby Federation (FFR) to deny their clubs their votes. They 'acquired' them for their own purpose, under the belief that it was 'on behalf of the better interests of French rugby'.

The four votes that the FFR took from the French Top 14 clubs swayed a tight decision in Lux's direction, and Wheeler was left high and dry with only six of the 10 he needed for victory.

The result meant Lux, who became chairman in 1999, was re-elected for another three years with the support of just six clubs (Scottish and Irish), while the 30 clubs who supported Wheeler (English, French and Welsh) were left disappointed.

While Wheeler, the RFU and the English clubs' umbrella body, Premier Rugby, have yet to comment, the French clubs have reacted with fury.

In a statement, they criticised their union for commandeering their votes, and called Lux's re-appointment an 'electorial masquerade'.

Here are some interesting quotes from a 2011 Guardian article

Money, as usual, is at the heart of the matter. The Heineken Cup is run by European Rugby Cup Ltd which acts on behalf of the unions involved. Tournament turnover has doubled in five years to just over €50m (£43m) but there are many who believe the competition is capable of generating far more.

The surprise re-election of Jean Pierre Lux as ERC chairman ahead of England's Peter Wheeler has irked the bigger clubs, with McCafferty calling for a third European competition to be introduced to expand the game beyond its traditional heartlands. "We feel there needs to be a stronger form of leadership and governance within ERC. We've got to try and embrace the emerging countries: Russia, Spain, Romania, Georgia etc. The Heineken Cup shouldn't just be limited to six countries."

Leinster's chief executive Mick Dawson cast doubt on the wisdom of English and French clubs attempting to break away. "I'm on ERC's commercial and marketing committee and I know the English clubs well. I'd say the monies generated by the TV contracts are quite big and competitive. Everyone says 'You can get more money' until they actually have to go and get it. Is there a whole pot load of money out there that we're missing? I doubt it."

by Big Thu 12 Sep 2013, 7:19 am

nth - I do recall the controversy at the time, but it is interesting to see the quotes again. I'd be very interested to see Mick Dawson questioned on his views again now that PRL apparently have gone out and found someone willing to offer more.

I don't really like PRL and I'd like to see the RFU bring them in line with the wider game. However, I also dislike ERC - I suspect they are far more cosy with Sky (underselling to mates?) and even Heineken than they ought to be (May be wrong but I have heard that the reason for not playing this in a single block, which would imo solve the 'they can rest between games and we can't' argument, is that it would upset the sponsors).

There's just so many self interested parties everywhere, it's not all that long ago that some of the top premiership clubs were mooting the idea of a euro league to get away from some of the PRL rules that they felt were holding them back - salary cap, payment smoothing, etc. When I look at rugby management I sometimes get the feeling that everyone is fighting with everyone else.

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 12 Sep 2013, 7:45 am

ME-109 wrote:The only possible spanner in the works will be the Welsh Regions as the ones to go bleating after the English...

I'm genuinely worried about this. If the money's right, Roger Lewis will do anything; on the other hand, he puts Team Wales before the regions every time and if there's a chance of Wales fauling foul of the IRB, he might not risk it.

by maestegmafia Thu 12 Sep 2013, 8:30 am

[quote="nth"]
For those who don't remember Lux's 2011 election as ERC president was somewhat controversial

Frenchman Jean-Pierre Lux won last week's vote in Dublin – a decision which was expected to go Wheeler's way with the support of the English clubs, the Rugby Union, and the Welsh and French clubs.

JP Lux or Wheeler. Thats like jumping out the frying pan and into the fire. Wheeler is hardly the type of club owner that anyone would want running the ERC other than Leicester Tigers. How could he possibly be CEO at Leicester RFC, Sit on the Board of the PRL and also president of the ERC and be impartial...?

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Thu 12 Sep 2013, 8:36 am

IanBru wrote:This is all about fairness and rewarding achievement. Here's what I want, and bear with me:

I want the best four teams from each union to qualify. That's twenty-four teams.

Sure, Scotland only have two teams, but I'd back Melrose or Ayr to give Northampton and Harlequins a good game.

Alternatively, the SRU could sell their extra two spots for £1 million each. The RFU could just stage one of the relevant Heino games at Twickenham to pay for it, charge £15 per ticket, £6.50 for a pint of watered-down IPA and £8 for a bratwurst.

You've got it made in the shade.

by Irish Londoner Thu 12 Sep 2013, 8:37 am

Can someone who understands this thing better than me tell me who has the TV rights for French rugby - I know that BT show it here but who shows it in France and do they show the French HEC games as well?
Has the French broadcaster agreed with BT/PRL that BT have the rights to show HEC games involving French sides?
Also how much are BT paying the Top 14 to show it outside France?

by Irish Londoner Thu 12 Sep 2013, 8:38 am

maestegmafia wrote:
nth wrote:
For those who don't remember Lux's 2011 election as ERC president was somewhat controversial

Frenchman Jean-Pierre Lux won last week's vote in Dublin – a decision which was expected to go Wheeler's way with the support of the English clubs, the Rugby Union, and the Welsh and French clubs.
JP Lux or Wheeler. Thats like jumping out the frying pan and into the fire. Wheeler is hardly the type of club owner that anyone would want running the ERC other than Leicester Tigers. How could he possibly be CEO at Leicester RFC, Sit on the Board of the PRL and also president of the ERC and be impartial...?

I think there may be a lesson here for PRL in regard to the solidarity and trustworthiness of the French in the current negotiations.

by 2ndtimeround Thu 12 Sep 2013, 8:42 am

I'm all for levelling the playing field both financially and through teams having to actually qualify for the tournament, automatically entering Zebre into what is hailed as an elite tournament makes a mockery of the competition.
While were at it though lets level the rest of the field also, all teams in the competition need to have at least 19 players qualified to play for their country in the match day squad, that will stop the falsely inflated wages been pushed up by the richest clubs and help all clubs to afford a competitive squad utilising players they managed to keep after developing them.

by beshocked Thu 12 Sep 2013, 8:45 am

allyt2k wrote:This pretty much sums up the whole mess its about Clubs v Unions

Who has the power?

Bringing in a mediator just means things are so bad they ain't talking to each other.

Saracens chairman Nigel Wray
"It was inevitable, it has to happen," Wray told ESPN.

"It is a Union competition, set up by the Unions, fair enough. But it is the clubs taking part in it and it's hugely important to the clubs. We want it to be a club-controlled competition.

"In addition, under the current structure, the two nations - France and England - who provide the vast majority of the revenue are permanently out-voted by the four other nations. In that system, you have to leave if you want to change something.

Nigel Wray = top bloke. notworthy

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 12 Sep 2013, 8:53 am

2ndtimeround wrote:Automatically entering Zebre into what is hailed as an elite tournament makes a mockery of the competition.

How so? They're one of the top two Italian sides, Italy being one of the participating unions.

by 2ndtimeround Thu 12 Sep 2013, 9:04 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
2ndtimeround wrote:Automatically entering Zebre into what is hailed as an elite tournament makes a mockery of the competition.
How so? They're one of the top two Italian sides, Italy being one of the participating unions.

Simple really, as they have never won a game at league level they can not be classed as an elite team. Simply been from a nation with only 2 teams should not be enough to qualify for the top tournament at club level in NH rugby.

by beshocked Thu 12 Sep 2013, 9:13 am

Well said 2nd time round.

IanBru you talk about rewarding achievement? Very funny.

Perhaps Scotland should focus on getting sides to win more consistently in the HC before wanting two extra teams. Glasgow and Edinburgh have win rates that are around 30% and 35% respectively.

You mentioned Saints - well their win rate is around 59% in the HC.

by Scrumpy Thu 12 Sep 2013, 9:22 am

A Club competition should be run by the clubs for the clubs, The Unions are outdated and belong to the history books in their current format.

by Tattie Scones RRN Thu 12 Sep 2013, 9:23 am

beshocked wrote:Well said 2nd time round.

IanBru you talk about rewarding achievement? Very funny.

Perhaps Scotland should focus on getting sides to win more consistently in the HC before wanting two extra teams. Glasgow and Edinburgh have win rates that are around 30% and 35% respectively.

You mentioned Saints - well their win rate is around 59% in the HC.

by Poorfour Thu 12 Sep 2013, 9:24 am

Irish Londoner, that's exactly the point. Read the extract on Lux carefully. 85% of the clubs [1] wanted Wheeler [2]. Including all the Top 14 clubs, who showed solidarity and trustworthiness and did not change their position. But the FFR denied them the right to vote, and voted in Lux.

This is the central conflict of interest: the competition is governed and controlled by unions whose interests are different from those of the clubs who compete. Whether you like it or not, that's an unsustainable position.

What the PRL and LNR are doing now is pretty extreme (cue chorus: "Awful. Despicable. End of rugby as we know it. POWER. CONTROL. MONEY."), but at root they have been asking for 3 things - a more meritocratic and streamlined tournament; a fairer balance of revenue at a team level; and a bigger say in a tournament in which they make up two thirds of the teams.

If they had been starting from a position where they already had parity and wanted a bigger share, I wouldn't support them. But these are not unreasonable requests given where we are starting from.

What they are doing now to get what they want is pretty extreme, and again I would not support it if this were the opening move. But they have been trying to negotiate these things for several years and have been blocked at every turn by a minority of the interested parties who have a disproportionate share of control and have given no indication of willingness to negotiate at any stage.

ERC have taken a "like it or lump it" stance at every turn (does anyone have any tangible evidence to the contrary?), the PRL and LNR have played hardball (I would say they have been given little option. Again, show me any evidence of any other approach producing any movement?) but have followed due process, and the ERC is now reaping what it has sown through its intransigence.

I suppose the ERC could limp on if the RFU and FFR turned to lower division teams to play in it. But why would they throw a full division of semi-pro teams at it. Why not spend their share of the cash on turning Bristol, Leeds, Bedford and the Pirates into genuine competitors? And even then, I bet the top English and French teams would be a bigger draw for tv.

[1] y'know the ones who spend the money building squads and who actually compete in the competition
[2] who, incidentally, is not a club owner. Leicester is owned by its fans

by Poorfour Thu 12 Sep 2013, 9:29 am

Irish Londoner, that's exactly the point. Read the extract on Lux carefully. 85% of the clubs [1] wanted Wheeler [2]. Including all the Top 14 clubs, who showed solidarity and trustworthiness and did not change their position. But the FFR denied them the right to vote, and voted in Lux.

This is the central conflict of interest: the competition is governed and controlled by unions whose interests are different from those of the clubs who compete. Whether you like it or not, that's an unsustainable position.

What the PRL and LNR are doing now is pretty extreme (cue chorus: "Awful. Despicable. End of rugby as we know it. POWER. CONTROL. MONEY."), but at root they have been asking for 3 things - a more meritocratic and streamlined tournament; a fairer balance of revenue at a team level; and a bigger say in a tournament in which they make up two thirds of the teams.

If they had been starting from a position where they already had parity and wanted a bigger share, I wouldn't support them. But these are not unreasonable requests given where we are starting from.

What they are doing now to get what they want is pretty extreme, and again I would not support it if this were the opening move. But they have been trying to negotiate these things for several years and have been blocked at every turn by a minority of the interested parties who have a disproportionate share of control and have given no indication of willingness to negotiate at any stage.

ERC have taken a "like it or lump it" stance at every turn (does anyone have any tangible evidence to the contrary?), the PRL and LNR have played hardball (I would say they have been given little option. Again, show me any evidence of any other approach producing any movement?) but have followed due process, and the ERC is now reaping what it has sown through its intransigence.

I suppose the ERC could limp on if the RFU and FFR turned to lower division teams to play in it. But why would they throw a full division of semi-pro teams at it. Why not spend their share of the cash on turning Bristol, Leeds, Bedford and the Pirates into genuine competitors? And even then, I bet the top English and French teams would be a bigger draw for tv.

[1] y'know the ones who spend the money building squads and who actually compete in the competition
[2] who, incidentally, is not a club owner. Leicester is owned by its fans

by **Notch** Thu 12 Sep 2013, 9:32 am

How is four of the six nations involved a 'minority'?

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