Hagler: The Light Heavyweight

As mentioned over numerous threads Marvins all time standing differs,a stick that we can beat Marvin with is the one of not stepping up to face Michael Spinks at LHW.

What is the general consensus on how we feel Hagler would've fared in an era from lets say the late 70s to the mid 80s? A strong era against some big strong LHWs , Dwight Qawi, Eddie Mustafa Muhammad, John Conteh, Michael Spinks, Matthew Saad Muhammad & Marvin Johnson.

Is it a fanciful thought that Hagler may have lost to all these guys ?


Cheers Rodders

Qawi would have been interesting Marvin has to back off in that one.......But I think he could have outboxed him and took a decision over 15..........Couldn't stop him though..

Spinks and maybe Conteh are too cute............and Saad probably knocks him out in 12 or less.......only one to stop him..

He has a chance against pops and Mustafa though........Can't picture those fights..

Glad to see my Hagler avoiding Spinks stuff is being taken in though... 

Yeah can't imagine him going to war with Saad or Qawi would be suicide, he had a small taste with that when he fought Mugabi and soon realised it wasn't the smartest thing to do.

As we know Marvin is teak tough , with a near indestructible chin from what we've seen, so gives him a chance.

Cheers Rodders

Did Marvin ever have trouble making middleweight?

Franklin has such a heavy punch.........Can't see Hagler taking it.......Could see Franklin knocking out some heavyweights........

Hagler would have to tighten up...........Mugabi fight was a shocker..remember that lead uppercut that hit him in the 4th round...

Hagler shades Qawi perhaps and pops/Mustafa are 50/50........

Strongback wrote:Did Marvin ever have trouble making middleweight?

no Like Floyd doesn't at 147............But he looks for challenges..So don't start !!

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Strongback wrote:Did Marvin ever have trouble making middleweight?

no Like Floyd doesn't at 147............But he looks for challenges..So don't start !!

He was forced to go to 154 against 'feet of stone' because Showtime lost money when the public interest in that "P4P" star Guerrera only yielded 900,000 PPV's.

In Marvin's day, a middleweight was a middleweight. Same day weigh ins helped restrict boxers from abusing safety measures to gain unfair advantage (Chavez Jr. for example is a cruiserweight fighting at middleweight).

175lbs back in those days was a legitimate leap -- you'd wind up fighting genuinely larger men. Jumping weights also wasn't as in vogue as it is these days (without legitimate champions in each division, fighters are pressured into finding a solid match in the two or three divisions either side of where they reside, against fighters fighting at unnatural weights -- total shambles all round) and so there was never any real call for Hagler to fight at light heavyweight. He was a dominant middleweight champion (how the sport could do with someone like that today).

As for those match-ups, Hagler would probably be too undersized but he was a great fighter, so who knows?

In Hagler's day a welterweight was a welterweight too........Like Tommy Hearns and Ray Leonard and Roberto duran......

and Spinks, Gomez, Camacho, Chavez and anyone else..who moved up

Very good Mate..

In Hagler's day a welterweight was a welterweight too........Like Tommy Hearns and Ray Leonard and Roberto duran......

and Spinks, Gomez, Camacho, Chavez and anyone else..who moved up

Very good Mate..

In Hagler's day a welterweight was a welterweight too........Like Tommy Hearns and Ray Leonard and Roberto duran......

and Spinks, Gomez, Camacho, Chavez and anyone else..who moved up

Very good Mate..

Sorry about the duplication.......modern technology.

And they all paid the price for doing so.

Nowadays, weight jumping is a joke. The rehydration period is widely abused.

Dick tiger didn't...........

So lets stay at a weight and fight stiffs..........unlike Mayweather looking for challenges.........You're worse than strongy.

Whoever said that Marvin would not ko Qawi must be smoking industrial grade skunk.

Haglar stops Qawi, Conteh and Johnson early to mid rounds. Saad is a long night affair.

How does hagler stop Qawi..........??? Grenade ???

Funny thing is Haz has Duran top 5 and yet the only reeason he has him there is because of Leonard, Moore and barkley.......

You never stop eulogising the Leonard win...12 pounds remember !!!

160-175 is 15 and I'm sure Spinks would have weighed 170 If asked ..He weighed 171 for Mcdonald.

WTF...kind of an argument are you making ???

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Dick tiger didn't...........

So lets stay at a weight and fight stiffs..........unlike Mayweather looking for challenges.........You're worse than strongy.

You don't genuinely believe that. Playground stuff.

Back in the day, Mayweather would have been a lightweight who eventually moved to welterweight. Looked for challenges. My goodness.

Truss is on top wum form at the moment, and still hasn't answered why Floyd has avoided most of the top ranked WW fighters during his time at the weight.

Great fighters look for big challenges, could you imagine Floyd taking on someone like Hagler. Not a chance.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:How does hagler stop Qawi..........??? Grenade ???

Funny thing is Haz has Duran top 5 and yet the only reeason he has him there is because of Leonard, Moore and barkley.......

You never stop eulogising the Leonard win...12 pounds remember !!!

160-175 is 15 and I'm sure Spinks would have weighed 170 If asked ..He weighed 171 for Mcdonald.

WTF...kind of an argument are you making ???

More gibberish. Duran's placing is due, in the main, to his lightweight reign. Yes, the Leonard win enhanced this. Yes, a win over Spinks would have enhanced Hagler's but it was never a viable option and it isn't held against Hagler for that very reason. There was never any pressure on Hagler to fight there.

The worst thing is, you have indoctrinated other posters (unless you post under aliases). I regularly see the same rubbish trotted out.

Everything you post these days is a hamhanded attempt to argue a case for Floyd that most experts (and fair-minded people) dismiss.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Sorry about the duplication.......modern technology.

What you mean is you messed up...........it's been a long time since anybody has called you modern!

Hagler was not even a particularly big Middleweight, why on earth would he move up to fight light heavyweight ?
He was a smart a man and stayed at his best weight anyone trying to mark down his greatness for not moving through the weights is clutching at straws. I actually admire the fact he was able to fight so long at one weight and had the dedication to always make the middleweight limit time after time unlike those who take the lazier way and just move up when it gets to hard for them. I think he would give a good argument to any light heavyweight mentioned and beat most of them, the likes of a great like Spinks though was just too good and hit too hard to be conceding all that size and strength against and he would have taken a bit of a battering.

Nice article Rodders and some good food for thought in the comments.

I actually think that Hagler was well capable of beating Saad, first off. Saad was a naturally bigger guy and one hell of a war monger, but Marvin's better boxing skills could definitely offset that. Pops Johnson was smaller than Saad, too (let's face it, if there'd been a Super-Middleweight class in Johnson's day that's where he'd have been throughout his career) and he was able to build up a big lead on the cards when he first boxed Saad before being stopped in the very last round. Sure, he was a bit bigger than Marvin, but I still think Hagler would have taken what Johnson did in that fight and improved upon it to grind out the win.

Hagler by decision in a grueller.

Would fancy him against Qawi too, perhaps. I think Qawi's lack of height, reach and also his come-forward style would give Hagler opportunities for those scary mid-range counters of his. Don't see a stoppage here either, but could see Hagler perhaps nicking it on the cards.

It's the more rounded boxers like Eddie Mustafa Muhammad, Conteh etc who would give him the most bother. As Duran famously told Ray Leonard after he fought Hagler in '83, "If you box him, you beat him." Galindez had similarities to Hagler, albeit he was a cut-price version, and Eddie did a good enough job on him to the point where he really should have got the decision. I'd expect Eddie to be working a fair bit of magic off the back foot and win a pretty low-key fight on the cards.

Conteh would have been a bit more of a spectacle but a Conteh with two hands, even if he could be countered, had a superb jab, could punch with the best of them and could box well at mid range (Finnegan I) or tear in to an opponent at will (Hutchins, Bennett). He was also a natural Cruiserweight, albeit a smaller one, who cut down to 175, so Hagler won't be able to impose himself on him the way he could to others. I think it's a bridge too far for Marvelous and he loses a decision, a bit wider than the one he loses against Eddie.

Naturally, my boy Galindez would have stood him on his head.....

I'm sorry I've probably gone over the top again..........But I applaud robinson taking on Maxim and to say no one did weightjumping in Hagler's day...

Leonard, Duran, Spinks, Hearns, Gomez, Curry, Benitez........

It's not one of Haz's better arguments..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I'm sorry I've probably gone over the top again..........But I applaud robinson taking on Maxim and to say no one did weightjumping in Hagler's day...

Leonard, Duran, Spinks, Hearns, Gomez, Curry, Benitez........

It's not one of Haz's better arguments..

I haven't said that. Merely it wasn't as widespread, nor was there as much emphasis to do so as there is today.

Let's just agree to disagree Mate..

Strongback wrote:Did Marvin ever have trouble making middleweight?

No he didn't.

During Hagler's whole 14 year career the most he weighed was 163lbs and the lightest he ever weighed was 155lbs. He never had to consider moving up. In todays era he could have easily fought at light middle. A little too small to be moving up to fight Spinks.

Floyd started at 130...........He was ambitious wanted to fight the best....

Roldan, Vito, Obelmijas x 2 , Hamsho x2, Sibson, Lee, Hearns who he made sure never got another shot...

With opposition like that who needs Spinks..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Floyd started at 130...........He was ambitious wanted to fight the best....

Shame it never really materialised. Some potential great fights.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Roldan, Vito, Obelmijas x 2 , Hamsho x2, Sibson, Lee, Hearns who he made sure never got another shot...

With opposition like that who needs Spinks..

Roldan, Obelmijas x 2, Hamsho x 2 and Sibson were all mandatories, which back in Hagler's day, had to be made, and no-one was complaining about those challengers at the time. I can't remember whether Lee was a mandatory or not. Hearns got bumped for Ray Leonard. I don't know why you think Hagler made sure that Hearns never got another shot. Are you trying to imply that Hagler who charged out of his corner to meet the puncher Hearns in the middle of the ring, was scared of a rematch? If Leonard hadn't announced his return to fight Hagler, Hearns would have been accommodated.

I too would have liked to have seen a Hagler v Spinks fight, but it wasn't really talked about that much. I heard it mentioned twice, once by Spinks himself who was obviously looking for a big payday (and who can blame him), and once by Ring magazine after the Hagler v Hearns fight.

I'm a Hagler fan but I would have picked Spinks over the distance.

Good for Floyd that he moved up from 130lbs. But I'm gussing that one of the reasons he moved up was because he had to......Hagler didn't.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Roldan, Vito, Obelmijas x 2 , Hamsho x2, Sibson, Lee, Hearns who he made sure never got another shot...

With opposition like that who needs Spinks..

It's not really fair to rank him based on the fact he never had the second Hearns fight right, Truss?

DUMBASS and you like to say. The hypocrisy is hilarious.

Good article Rodney. However I can't agree with the premise of Marv being criticised for not moving up. The difference between Marvin and some of the more famous weight jumpers mentioned is the fact that some of those that started out at the lower weights and were still filling out.

Marvin wasn't a big middleweight by any stretch of the imagination. Tommy Hearns towered over him especially and there was very little between Marvin. The 15 pounds step up to light heavy presented a massive jump up. And looking at Hagler where was he going to put those 15 pounds without looking like an inflated version of himself?

Duran wasn't filling out............Gomez wsn't filling out, Spinks wasn't filling out, Qawi wasn't filling out...Hearns won the wbc 175 title and then dropped down again, Leonard wasn't filling out..

Sorry Mate............poor argument......

Hagler didn't fancy spinks..

It's a bit rich isn't it........90% on here Hagler worshippers and the same people that think...

7 years and..........Vito x2 , Hamsho x2, Obelmijas x2, Lee, Roldan, Sibson, Hearns and a three year blown up welterweight in Leonard is good...........chuck in a lightweight as well...

But........Mayweather hasn't fought anybody..

Really Truss? Hearns wasn't filling out. Where did he finish his career at? He was a 6 foot 1 welterweight. Hagler was 5'8 and a small enough frame.

Hagler didn't fancy Spinks in the same way Leonard wouldn't have jumped straight to fight Hagler from his start weight.

Never once marked Floyd down and 90% of people have Floyd well above Marv.

Hearns fought andries at 175 and then fought Roldan at 160......

Hearns had the frame for it.

Mate you're reaching.

I'm not saying Hagler shouldn't have moved up but where is he going to put 15 pounds on his frame without looking bloated?

Believe it or not Duran at 5ft 7 managed to win a middleweight title..

135-160 = 25 pounds.........

Spinks 175-210................35 pounds........

Spinks fought at 171 for Mcdonald.........170 for $5million I'm sure he'd have obliged..

Did Duran do that in one jump though or work his way up?

I.e., I could see there being more of an argument in today's age where Marv could've done a Hoppo and work his weight up via SMW first before testing the waters at LHW. 15lbs in one go just feels like too big a jump. Would be like Donaire jumping up to fight Matthyse.

Like I said Spinks weighed 171 for mcdonald...............

If there'd been a SMW back then then I'd knock Marv more for not meeting Spinks in the middle at it.

And I'm saying that everybody's body shape is different. Duran, Leonard, Hearns got bigger and filled out as they got older. Hagler looked near enough exactly the same his whole career so a jump to light heavy would have been pointless

Spinks 175 to 205 for the great Larry.........

he could have took six months for £5 mill for Spinks. at 170.........Instead of peanuts for hamsho, Obelmijas...

He wasn't interested..........

I'm not saying he was interested. He knew his body limits. Do you honestly think a man like Hagler would step up just for a payday?

Hopkins never went up to 168. He went straight to 175. Conjecture as to how Hagler would have gone on if he bulked up. Most likely would have lost to Spinks and had fights of similar magnitude closer to his own weight. With a weaker champion at 175 Hagler might have been more tempted to make the jump.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Spinks 175 to 205 for the great Larry.........

he could have took six months for £5 mill for Spinks. at 170.........Instead of peanuts for hamsho, Obelmijas...

He wasn't interested..........

Where on earth have you plucked that figure from? He was never offered a fight with Spinks.

The issue here is that Hagler was a bonafide champion who faced every challenger or rival that put themselves in his way. He missed no-one.

Floyd, meanwhile, didn't face his toughest challenges (he ducked out of the welterweight division in 2007 when it was full of good, tough men and didn't face Pacquiao -- which we've done to death).

I find it odd that you'd try and bend logic in order to defend a fighter who doesn't defend himself.

If you can't respect Marvin, you can't respect anyone. He was the very definition of a champion.

catchweight wrote:Hopkins never went up to 168. He went straight to 175. Conjecture as to how Hagler would have gone on if he bulked up. Most likely would have lost to Spinks and had fights of similar magnitude closer to his own weight. With a weaker champion at 175 Hagler might have been more tempted to make the jump.  

Why would he move into a less glamorous division? This is an argument that neglects historical context (instigated by a Floyd fan who just simply can't bear the fact Mayweather receives just criticism that he himself fully acknowledges).