norton v modern heavyweights

First topic message reminder :

Evening all,

With the sad passing away of Ken Norton I've been wondering how you guys think fights would have gone on with the current crop of heavyweights. So let's try the following.

Vital
Wladimir
Povetkin
Haye
Adamek
Stiverne
Pulev
Fury
Arreola
Solis

Cheers gents
Wilder

Just being cynical Dave. I don't think a lot of 70s heavies are as great as they're made out to be. However, they ARE better than most of today's dross!

I agree Chris,even the the commentators were saying that Ali needs a knockout in the last round to save this fight,and when he got a UD I was amazed.Still that's boxing.

azania wrote:Aggressive Haye? When have you seen that happen at HW? Norton beats Haye.

When he throws punches. With quantity being an issue with him that's not all too common but still it does happen occasionally, and if he went on the offense from the first round I think he could take Ken out. As you say though, it doesn't seem to be in his nature to take the fight to his foe.

very very early to give wilder a chance of beating norton, wilder does look decent knocking tin cans over at the minute but still to be seen if how he deals with anyone who can move or box! the only two that beat ken on that list is the klits for me and the wlad fight is a close one due to wlads negativity and unwillingness to let his shots go giving ken chance to out work him

compelling and rich wrote:very very early to give wilder a chance of beating norton, wilder does look decent knocking tin cans over at the minute but still to be seen if how he deals with anyone who can move or box

Exactly. Wilder's best wins are against a washed up Audley and an even more washed up Liakhovich....and people are making him favourite against a top HW in Norton?

 

Ken wasn't a top heavy against someone with one-punch KO ability. Whatever his other faults may be, it seems reasonable to believe that Wilder has a top-class dig. That information alone was usually enough for Ken to go into his shell, retreat around the ring with his gloves cupping his head and forget how good he was when fighting off the front foot. It was 100% mental with Norton - he totally lost his confidence against a hitter and was one tenth the fighter in consequence. Wilder to win inside the distance is a more than reasonable call.

captain carrantuohil wrote:Ken wasn't a top heavy against someone with one-punch KO ability. Whatever his other faults may be, it seems reasonable to believe that Wilder has a top-class dig. That information alone was usually enough for Ken to go into his shell, retreat around the ring with his gloves cupping his head and forget how good he was when fighting off the front foot. It was 100% mental with Norton - he totally lost his confidence against a hitter and was one tenth the fighter in consequence. Wilder to win inside the distance is a more than reasonable call.

Would not the same apply to Wlad then captain? Anyone who has fought him has said they've never faced a harder hitter - I know he doesnt set the world alight but Norton would know the opinions of the other boxers and seen his punch power when he lets it go - probably cause him to freeze as well.

Shah, I think with Wlad, you have the knowledge that he would rather be cautious then risk putting his punch dial on 'full'. That would mean a lot to someone like Ken; at least he wouldn't be beaten before getting into the ring, as he was against Foreman and Shavers. Of course, if Norton were to have tasted Wlad's power early, things might have changed radically, so Wlad to win is the percentage call. The difference is that for me, Vitali to win against Norton would be a stone-cold certainty, Wlad more akin to an 80% likelihood.

i wouldnt rank wlad up there with foreman and shavers for power, one shot power perhaps wouldn't be much in it, but both the latter were aggressive with there power. the best wins of wlad have normally been points win and he's dined out on some rubbish in between to bump up his ko % (era's fault not his).

any of wlad ko victims that you would back to get past 4/5 rounds with foreman or shavers?

George and Shavers also dined out on some rubbish to get their percentages quite as high as they are, c&r. I do agree with your basic point, though, which is why I'm not 100% sure that Wlad beats Ken, although I think he's an overwhelming favourite to do so. A lot would depend on the state of Ken's mind - he was quite capable of coming into the ring already beaten.

Think Corrie Sanders (the one who faced Wlad, not the flabby one who prepaired for his Vitali fight by going 18 rounds in the golf course) would be a decent go vs both Shavers and Norton. Lewis and Rahman are big hitters and Rahman said Sanders hit him like a train, while Lewis quite publicly ducked him, so I think he would spook Norton, while having a "First to connect wins" battle with Shavers, though he took eight rounds of clean shots vs Vitali, and didnt so much as quiver at the few leads Wlad landed, so I think he chins through both of them... *This in response to Compelling's last sentence*

Also, very unfair to use fights with eight-foot tall, 250lbs Ukranians as proof that boxers couldnt live with slightly more normal boxers. Styles make fights and all that.

captain carrantuohil wrote:George and Shavers also dined out on some rubbish to get their percentages quite as high as they are, c&r. I do agree with your basic point, though, which is why I'm not 100% sure that Wlad beats Ken, although I think he's an overwhelming favourite to do so. A lot would depend on the state of Ken's mind - he was quite capable of coming into the ring already beaten.

i agree on the wlad point, i rate wlad as the better boxer of the two brothers but give vitali a better chance against norton, think wlad would also still beat him but not convinced i see a blow out because despite nortons fragile mind you could easily say the same about wlad when he's fighting someone of nortons calibre, very possible wlad fights scared which suits norton imo.

kingraf wrote:Think Corrie Sanders (the one who faced Wlad, not the flabby one who prepaired for his Vitali fight by going 18 rounds in the golf course) would be a decent go vs both Shavers and Norton. Lewis and Rahman are big hitters and Rahman said Sanders hit him like a train, while Lewis quite publicly ducked him, so I think he would spook Norton, while having a "First to connect wins" battle with Shavers, though he took eight rounds of clean shots vs Vitali, and didnt so much as quiver at the few leads Wlad landed, so I think he chins through both of them... *This in response to Compelling's last sentence*

Also, very unfair to use fights with eight-foot tall, 250lbs Ukranians as proof that boxers couldnt live with slightly more normal boxers. Styles make fights and all that.

sanders could be a handful no doubt, but i asked who of wlads ko wins would stand a chance not his ko loses, basically suggesting the ko wins of wlad have normally been poor quality that most decent boxers would have got rid of let alone power hitters like foreman and shavers

Lewis ducked Sander? News to me that one. In boxing or a game of golf? Im amazed people think the Klitschkos never mind Wilder would beat Norton. He was a very skillful boxer and tougher than being credited for. Neither of the Klitschkos have the ability or style to unlock and open up on him. I think he boxes them comfortable. Im not even going to consider Wilder until he faces someone that isnt a punching bag.

I dont know, I think Thompson goes twelve with Norton, but is sparked by Shavers. A motivated Frans Botha would also go twelve with Hercules, and a fit Rahman is a hamdful for anyone...

CW - It was a pretty hot topic in SA when I was a kid, as Lewis' legend matured, the story has transformed to "Lewis-Sander was just bad timing",

Not quite sure I follow the idea that Lewis "publicly ducked Sanders", raf. I have to say that it slipped below my radar, in any case, although I acknowledge that I'm not South African.

At what point of Lewis's reigns was he supposed to fight Corrie? First time round, Sanders got himself KO'd by Nate Tubbs just before Lewis himself lost his title to McCall. Sanders then spent the next five years or so being either inactive or hammering the superannuated, the overmatched or cruiserweights trying their luck. At this point, he's nowhere near first in the queue to fight any belt holder.

Lewis finally wins back all the titles in 99, six months before Sanders is spanked by Rahman. Corrie then has two meaningless fights in nearly three years - why is he in line to fight Lewis then, who in any case loses his titles to Rahman and has to win them back?

Finally, Corrie does the business against Wlad, but by now, Lewis is one fight away from retirement. He beats Vitali; if he is going to fight again, the only acceptable option is a rematch of that controversial (to some) contest. Again, where is the duck of Sanders? Corrie and Vit square off for Lewis's vacated crown and Vit wins with something to spare.

I don't remember any great demand for Sanders to fight Lewis from the boxing world and I therefore don't recall any question of a duck. Wishful thinking, this.

kingraf wrote:I dont know, I think Thompson goes twelve with Norton, but is sparked by Shavers. A motivated Frans Botha would also go twelve with Hercules, and a fit Rahman is a hamdful for anyone...

My point wasnt really about kens power but more that wlads isnt as good as foreman or shavers. As the suggestion was that ken can be beaten before he enters the ring against big hitters something which I dont think would have been the case against wlad who's a lot more negative

When would Lewis against Sanders have been a proper fight? Sanders was a pretty part time boxer who only really got noticed after Lewis retired thanks to his fights with the Klitschkos. I dont think he was ever a serious threat to Lewis outside of South Africa maybe.

Rahman was(is?) awful by the way.

Oh, alright, then... Two different vantage points and all that. While its not exactly JFK in conspiracy theories, I jnow there are quite a few who saw it that way. Also, Rahman didnt spank Sanders, it was a clear win, but he was in serious trouble in that fight. More trouble than Lewis gave him. If Chavez ended up not fighting Martinez in his career, I doubt it will be called a duck ten years from now.

Lewis fought a Botha who had lost two of his last four fights and drawn one. So I doubt a lack of wins was the sole reason... Remember Mike not buying the "Old man" Foreman myth, with no record to back up his fears? But like I said, differing vantage points create different realities

Rahman is awful, but when he warmed to the idea of a fight he was a handful

Botha was the selected sacrificial lamb for what was always likely to be Lennox's last fight in London. It was designed as a conquering hero's return, and the White Buffalo was never likely to upset that particular applecart. Considering that Lennox had just disposed of the "next big thing", in Grant, and would then outclass the much-feared Tua, he is probably permitted the gimme that he received in Botha.

Foreman was a legend. Im not trying be a smartass but I had barely heard of Sanders before his Klitschkos fights. He wasnt exactly putting himself into contention when Lewis was around. Was he ever ranked highly by any of the organisations? The impression I got was he was a golf fanatic that boxed every now and again but didnt really take it too seriously. I find it hard to believe Lewis ducked him. If you mean Sanders gave Rahamn more trouble than Lewis in the first fight I will take your word for it but I think the second fight proved beyond reasonable doubt they were leagues apart. Rahman was still hopeless though. His fight against Ruiz was one of the worst I have ever seen.

Maybe he did maybe he didnt... I still lean to the former. And for good reason, had Sanders actually put some back into the sport, he could have been a great, watching his fight with Vitali is highly entertaining, and yet frustrating, as the seventh round shows just how granite-enforced his chin was... Vitali landing something like twenty unanswered shots without Corrie so much as buckling, Pity he ram out of gas that night, as I think he would have won that fight if he actually trained for it.

For the record though, Rahman beat Sanders the same way Klitschko did, TKO, with Sanders gassed but not even buckling at flush shots... Not knocked cold like Mr. Lewis.

Ok you got me curious. I had a quick look there at Sanders record. He doesnt really fight anybody of serious contention until 2000 where he loses to Rahman. Rahman goes on to fight Lewis for the title. So it would seem that he got close but blew it against Rahman who is pretty rubbish. After that Sanders faces journeymen like Sprott. I have to be honest I dont really see how there is a case for Lewis ducking him. He wasnt ranked and he lost to Rahman who was his first real contender. If Lewis didnt fight I think it was more a case of not seeing the point of fighting him. Why would Lewis be afraid to face him anyway? He faced the guy that had knocked Sanders out and lots of other better fighters.

My memory of the Vitali Klitschko fight differs. Sanders started well in the beginning but basically started to get battered once he couldnt repeat the trick he beat Wladimir with. It wasnt close at all. Brave performance though.

I dont think Ive ever heard a less confident interview than that Rocky Fielding one. He was practically begging Paul Smith to vacate.

Wrong thread!

I never said it was close! I said he could have taken it had he trained. I think he started to get battered because he came in thinking "Im going to try finish this in one, if that fails, well... Five million dollars baby!"
The guy fought with a trainer whose last world champion was twenty years ago, thats how determined he was to take out Vitali.

I might have a look at his fight with Rahman if I have time this evening.

No problem mate, wont be much different from the VK fight, Sanders really just lacked the desire to train which in turn f*****d up his stamina levels.

Looking at the Sanders v Rahman fight on youtube now. There is build up to it on HBO with Larry Merchant doing analysis. It happened on the same night as Maskaev v Jefferson. Theres no suggestion at all that Sanders is really even in the picture for a title shot. Merchant says that he would be happy if any of the four guys could even amount to a contender capable of facing Lewis. The guys being mentioned as possible opponents for Lewis are Klitschko, Tua, Tyson and Roy Jones. So losing to Rahman ended any real chance of Sanders getting into the picture. I dont think Lewis could be accused of ducking him. Good fight. Sanders had potential but looks like he rapidly loses effectiveness after 2 or three rounds. But in the words of the commentary team "Rahman punches Sanders right of the division". So I dont think a fight with Lewis was ever on the cards.

Mate, Im quite happy to cede. Youve done more reaearch than I, as I was following what seems a South African, myth apparently. Fair play.

kingraf wrote:Mate, Im quite happy to cede. Youve done more reaearch than I, as I was following what seems a South African, myth apparently. Fair play.

I was lucky. The Sanders fight with Rahman was up on youtube and the commentry team did a whole build up to it which pretty much explained the situation. Thank Larry Merchant and co. It seems Sanders lack of activity and dedication meant he was never really a contender until after Lewis has retired.

Might explain why I never heard that, as I watched the fight on a Soviet tv network...