Greatest Captain Of The Modern Game

First topic message reminder :

The common factor in the greatest teams of the modern era is an heroic leader, a man who can give 10% more than physically possible and coax 5% more from the players around him.

These players have an aura that makes them seem bigger and more influential than one man has a right to be. They soldier on through adversity, never say die, they choose country over personal reward and they put their bodies on the line for their team.

As captains are all said to have influenced referees and single handedly changed the outcome of matches, melded men into characters of unflinching resolve and generally been top blokes as well.

But which was the best? And why? Who gave most to their country?

GloriousEmpire wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Well in 1997 his success was reflected light from Neil Jenkins. 2003 his success was reflected light from Jonny Wilkinson.

I'm just not sure he made a team greater than a sum of its parts, rather than just happened to be in the right place at the right time.

Evidence of this would be his failure to fashion England into their traditional tournament team in 2011.

Must have missed his come back as captain or are we extending this topic?

Re-read the post and you'll see my point.

Done so. What exactly does underperforming as manager have to do with being captain? These are different roles.

Well 7.5 I'm talking about the "captain's roles" of leadership, motivation and melding into a unit.

I see these as also facets of a manager.

MJ let the side fall apart completely in NZ, and I'm questioning why this was and what this says about his time as captain...was he just a figure head with others within the team providing the real leadership?

So the captain's role overlaps that of the coach then. Maybe his bad choice as coach was not picking a better captain. You should really redo the whole votes thing so that we can see the leadership team of captain and coach together.

I would also mention that in 2011 the team wasn't of the same calibre as before... probably the weakest since 1987.

91 - Moore, Dooley, Teague, Winterbottom, Andrew, Guscott, Carling, Underwood.
95 - Moore, Leonard, Johnson, Clarke, Rodber, Andrew, Guscott, Underwood, Catt.
99 - Vickery, Johnson, Hill, Dillaglio, Back, Wilkinson, Greenwood, Catt
03 - Thompson, Vickery, Johnson, Hill, Dillaglio, Back, Wilkinson, Greenwood, Robinson, Lewsey,
07 - Vickery, Shaw, Corry, Moody, Wilkinson, Robinson, Lewsey

Those 5 world cup teams were filled with world class players.

In 2011 England simply didn't have that luxury, was there one player in that side who wouldhave made top 3 in their position at the time???? and they went out to the finalists who took NZ to a point of the trophy and had they had a more impartial ref they may have won the game.

Wait wait wait. I thought that blaming the ref when you lost to France in a world cup was the providence of a choker?

No ones blaming the ref for the loss to France, England weren't as good as France on the day.. and they would have been beaten by Wales anyhow had they progressed.

I see. So whinging about the ref in the world cup is fine provided you've already lost to the team who go on to be defeated "because of the ref" so you can justify your team's moral victory in the tournament by proxy? on the A>B>C rule?

Crikey! That is a convoluted way of admitting you weren't good enough.

First off GE, not English mate.

England didn't have any moral victory in 2011. They didn't have the best players and did as well as they could given that. Perhaps a SF at a stretch was possible but that was the limitations of that side at peak performance. I don't think anyone could have any complaints about their exit.

Tell me then... you say that great captains make great coaches... can you name some great captains that became great coaches?

For every 1 you may be able to quote there are about 10 which couldn't make the transformation. Its a different job altogether.

I didn't say great captains make great coaches at all.

I'm pointing to MJ's failure to man-manage his team or project a vaugely acceptable front given the chaos that he allowed to ensue, and then questioning why this inability to create a team spirit didn't manifest itself when he was captain.

Perhaps he tried to run with the foxes and hunt with the hounds as a manager, and perhaps that shows that there were some fairly useful hounds when he was captain.

GloriousEmpire wrote:I didn't say great captains make great coaches at all.

I'm pointing to MJ's failure to man-manage his team or project a vaugely acceptable front given the chaos that he allowed to ensue, and then questioning why this inability to create a team spirit didn't manifest itself when he was captain.  

Perhaps he tried to run with the foxes and hunt with the hounds as a manager, and perhaps that shows that there were some fairly useful hounds when he was captain.

I'm not entirely sure I know what you mean? Do you see the difference between a manager and a captain. last time I checked Johnson wasn't on the pitch with his players in 2011 and had a few more resposibilities.

GE has gone off-topic on his own thread  

Still, if he can move the goalposts and get a dig in it's a day worth living, eh?

I really must take biltong's advice and stop wrestling with this pig.

funny that... but you make a case for MJ's you use it as a reason to criticise his playing career and you said there are snergies between a captains role and a coaches... so why has there never really been any great coaches from past great players bar the odd 1 or 2... the rest have almost always been average players at best... often not even test players.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:I didn't say great captains make great coaches at all.

I'm pointing to MJ's failure to man-manage his team or project a vaugely acceptable front given the chaos that he allowed to ensue, and then questioning why this inability to create a team spirit didn't manifest itself when he was captain.  

Perhaps he tried to run with the foxes and hunt with the hounds as a manager, and perhaps that shows that there were some fairly useful hounds when he was captain.

I'm not entirely sure I know what you mean? Do you see the difference between a manager and a captain. last time I checked Johnson wasn't on the pitch with his players in 2011 and had a few more resposibilities.

Do you see this facet of the job is common to both roles? If you see it's grotesquely absent in one capacity you have to wonder why it might not have been noticed in the other capacity... did he merely fail to achieve the same objective from a different perspective? or was his failure covered up for him by management in the prior instance?

It's a different role. But seeing as you see it this way surely you would have to discount any of the great captains above who never made it as a great manager.

there may be similarities between the roles but then again Chimps share 99% of our DNA, hell we share 50% of our DNA with Banana's.

Roy Keane was one of the best captain's in modern football history. Perhaps one of the worst coaches of all time. The list could go on.  When out of the host of best test coaches throughout the last 30 odd years only 1 or 2 have been top players themselves let alone captains it shows that regardless of the similarities they often are not definers.

In fact, being an average player is probably a better education to being a top future coach... be it Woodward, Gatland, Henry, White, Meyer, Jones etc etc etc.

Martin Johnson was a great captain (I voted for him) but let's just keep that separate from his tenure as team manager/head coach (whatever he was).

He should never have taken the job and his reign was a chaotic disaster. There was no strategy, long-term planning, discipline or any sense to his selection policy.

Still, wonderful captain though, and I don't dock him points for his subsequent error of judgement.

fa0019 wrote:there may be similarities between the roles but then again Chimps share 99% of our DNA, hell we share 50% of our DNA with Banana's.

Roy Keane was one of the best captain's in modern football history. Perhaps one of the worst coaches of all time. The list could go on.  When out of the host of best test coaches throughout the last 30 odd years only 1 or 2 have been top players themselves let alone captains it shows that regardless of the similarities they often are not definers.

In fact, being an average player is probably a better education to being a top future coach... be it Woodward, Gatland, Henry, White, Meyer, Jones etc etc etc.

Roy Keane has 0 people skills so will never be a good manager.

If you want a football example look no further than Johan Cruyff. Incredibly sucessful as player, captain, manager and administrator. Is there anything he cant do? Probably the most influential, sucessfull and all round gifted footballer in every facet of the game there will ever be. Mr Football.

Am I alone in not giving a monkey's cobbler about soccer "comparisons"?

probably more synergies in what makes a good football coach to what makes a good rugby coach compared to being a good captain.

GloriousEmpire wrote:Am I alone in not giving a monkey's cobbler about soccer "comparisons"?

Can you please entertain us all with some America's cup comparisons then please?

GunsGerms wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Am I alone in not giving a monkey's cobbler about soccer "comparisons"?

Can you please entertain us all with some America's cup comparisons then please?

Sure.

What about Russell Coutts? Could've been an all time legendary New Zealander. Face on a note and everything. Up there with Sir Ed Hillary or Sir Peter Blake. But what did he do? sold his soul to the highest bidder and went off and won the cup with a bunch of other turn coats for another nation who know absolutely nothing about the sport.  There's a parrallel with MJ there to.  MJ, being identified as a potential rugby player by a Kiwi and rescued from American Football, brought to NZ to be a fine King Country lad and trained in the ways of the rugby Jedi by the AB junior squad where we taught him how to beat Australia...then what happened? Yep. He's a Coutts all over is that MJ.

So that's it. You're annoyed that he picked the team you supported last over the team you support now. You'll soon be singing Matt Damon's praises when you move onto SA then.

GloriousEmpire wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Am I alone in not giving a monkey's cobbler about soccer "comparisons"?

Can you please entertain us all with some America's cup comparisons then please?

Sure.

What about Russell Coutts? Could've been an all time legendary New Zealander. Face on a note and everything. Up there with Sir Ed Hillary or Sir Peter Blake. But what did he do? sold his soul to the highest bidder and went off and won the cup with a bunch of other turn coats for another nation who know absolutely nothing about the sport.  There's a parrallel with MJ there to.  MJ, being identified as a potential rugby player by a Kiwi and rescued from American Football, brought to NZ to be a fine King Country lad and trained in the ways of the rugby Jedi by the AB junior squad where we taught him how to beat Australia...then what happened? Yep. He's a Coutts all over is that MJ.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!!!

Fell asleep after the first word.

GloriousEmpire wrote:MJ, being identified as a potential rugby player by a Kiwi and rescued from American Football, brought to NZ to be a fine King Country lad and trained in the ways of the rugby Jedi by the AB junior squad where we taught him how to beat Australia...then what happened? Yep. He's a Coutts all over is that MJ.

Do not let the facts get in the way of a good story, never stopped Hollywood.

After all Johnson was in the Leicester system, had captained Leicestershire U18s, appeared for England age group teams and went to NZ for a year under the recommendation and introduction of a Leicester coach. He worked as a labourer and on a farm, where he met now wife Kay, and played junior rugby. It was at that point Colin Meads saw him and he was fast-tracked through the Kiwi system. He always intended to return, at least according to his autobiog, and Kay accompanied him.
In a Q&A I attended a few years ago, Johnson stated he wished he had tried American football - as he loved it - suggesting perhaps not all wikipedia facts are facts.

I don't read wikipedia. I didn't think anybody did.

Sailing

Cyril wrote:Sailing

Cyril, I challenge you. To say one thing. Just one thing, actually about rugby. At all. Anything.

I doubt Johnson would have been any good at american football even if he played it from young... he didn't have the speed for the game. Even the big 300Ibs guys can seriously shift it.

Its not like NZ discovered him. He toured NZ and beat both AUS and NZ in a 3N competition with England U18s. By all accounts he enhanced his game no end but I doubt he wouldn't have made it had he not gone over... he's the type of guy who would have made it in any country, in any era, battling any player for a test shirt.

fa0019 wrote:I doubt Johnson would have been any good at american football even if he played it from young... he didn't have the speed for the game. Even the big 300Ibs guys can seriously shift it.

Its not like NZ discovered him. He toured NZ and beat both AUS and NZ in a 3N competition with England U18s. By all accounts he enhanced his game no end but I doubt he wouldn't have made it had he not gone over... he's the type of guy who would have made it in any country, in any era, battling any player for a test shirt.

I'm not sure he'd have made much of a fight for a fullback spot to be fair.

GloriousEmpire wrote:

Cyril wrote:Sailing

Cyril, I challenge you. To say one thing. Just one thing, actually about rugby. At all. Anything.

Your posts are for off-topic discussion. It's like light relief among the serious issues.

LondonTiger wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:MJ, being identified as a potential rugby player by a Kiwi and rescued from American Football, brought to NZ to be a fine King Country lad and trained in the ways of the rugby Jedi by the AB junior squad where we taught him how to beat Australia...then what happened? Yep. He's a Coutts all over is that MJ.

Do not let the facts get in the way of a good story, never stopped Hollywood.

After all Johnson was in the Leicester system, had captained Leicestershire U18s, appeared for England age group teams and went to NZ for a year under the recommendation and introduction of a Leicester coach. He worked as a labourer and on a farm, where he met now wife Kay, and played junior rugby. It was at that point Colin Meads saw him and he was fast-tracked through the Kiwi system. He always intended to return, at least according to his autobiog, and Kay accompanied him.
In a Q&A I attended a few years ago, Johnson stated he wished he had tried American football - as he loved it - suggesting perhaps not all wikipedia facts are facts.

Beat me to it LT. The thread doesn't matter any more. Nobody voted the way GE wanted us to so the topic and posts have been moved to include managerial skills and fairy tails of MJ's Rugby past.

But if I follow your posting history Cyril, you never say anything at all about rugby, on any thread at all...

tigerleghorn wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:MJ, being identified as a potential rugby player by a Kiwi and rescued from American Football, brought to NZ to be a fine King Country lad and trained in the ways of the rugby Jedi by the AB junior squad where we taught him how to beat Australia...then what happened? Yep. He's a Coutts all over is that MJ.

Do not let the facts get in the way of a good story, never stopped Hollywood.

After all Johnson was in the Leicester system, had captained Leicestershire U18s, appeared for England age group teams and went to NZ for a year under the recommendation and introduction of a Leicester coach. He worked as a labourer and on a farm, where he met now wife Kay, and played junior rugby. It was at that point Colin Meads saw him and he was fast-tracked through the Kiwi system. He always intended to return, at least according to his autobiog, and Kay accompanied him.
In a Q&A I attended a few years ago, Johnson stated he wished he had tried American football - as he loved it - suggesting perhaps not all wikipedia facts are facts.

Beat me to it LT. The thread doesn't matter any more. Nobody voted the way GE wanted us to so the topic and posts have been moved to include managerial skills and fairy tails of MJ's Rugby past.

I didn't have an agenda on the voting. I'm just interested in this aspect of MJ's skillset which has apparently been revealed to be lacking. Any thoughts on whether his leadership was always lacking? or did it fall apart under the stress incurred due to his poor run of results as coach?

GloriousEmpire wrote:

tigerleghorn wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:MJ, being identified as a potential rugby player by a Kiwi and rescued from American Football, brought to NZ to be a fine King Country lad and trained in the ways of the rugby Jedi by the AB junior squad where we taught him how to beat Australia...then what happened? Yep. He's a Coutts all over is that MJ.

Do not let the facts get in the way of a good story, never stopped Hollywood.

After all Johnson was in the Leicester system, had captained Leicestershire U18s, appeared for England age group teams and went to NZ for a year under the recommendation and introduction of a Leicester coach. He worked as a labourer and on a farm, where he met now wife Kay, and played junior rugby. It was at that point Colin Meads saw him and he was fast-tracked through the Kiwi system. He always intended to return, at least according to his autobiog, and Kay accompanied him.
In a Q&A I attended a few years ago, Johnson stated he wished he had tried American football - as he loved it - suggesting perhaps not all wikipedia facts are facts.

Beat me to it LT. The thread doesn't matter any more. Nobody voted the way GE wanted us to so the topic and posts have been moved to include managerial skills and fairy tails of MJ's Rugby past.

I didn't have an agenda on the voting. I'm just interested in this aspect of MJ's skillset which has apparently been revealed to be lacking. Any thoughts on whether his leadership was always lacking? or did it fall apart under the stress incurred due to his poor run of results as coach?

Others may indulge you, I can't be bothered anymore on this one.

Spoken like a truly defeated contributor in a debate...

You probably would have been supporting England in 2003 GE what did you see in him?

GloriousEmpire wrote:Spoken like a truly defeated contributor in a debate...

If you like. You're like the Black Knight in Monty Python and the Holy Grail. Your arms and legs are gone and you want to bite me to death now, it's just too tiresome.

The best way to not contribute is to not contribute. If you stick around for two hours reiterating that you're going it just looks a bit like that character you're trying to mock.

Looks like MJ has comfortably won this vote with Eales a distant second.

Slightly surprised by that gap, thought it would be closer.

Smit and McCaw joint 3rd seems about right. I'd expect the McCaw vote to increase if NZ can defend the World Cup.

I'd expect the current result so long as the heavy population of nh correspondents here continue to reference their belief system on events that occurred over a decade ago. Comforting possibly, but hardly in touch with reality.

So you became an England supporter after 2003 GE, or before and dropped them after?

GloriousEmpire wrote:I'd expect the current result so long as the heavy population of nh correspondents here continue to reference their belief system on events that occurred over a decade ago. Comforting possibly, but hardly in touch with reality.

You did ask us to consider the greatest captain of the "modern" era and then listed players such as Farr-Jones and Kirk, so clearly you were hoping for posters like myself to consider as far back as the 1987 WC in making our determination.

Did you not also suggest that Eales was your choice based on performances around the same time as Martin Johnson's era?

There is a heavy NH bias on here, no question, but I don't think the Scots, Irish and Welsh posters would necessarily vote for MJ if they didn't indeed feel that he was the best captain from the options provided.

And I don't doubt that is what they think.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So you became an England supporter after 2003 GE, or before and dropped them after?

I don't think he'll answer you so you need to know he is a Kiwi but pretended to be English with this latest incarnation when he first started posting. Over the last few weeks he's dropped the "Tolworth" from his profile and given up with pretending to be English. He now posts in the same interesting style as his previous manifestations (no pun intended)

tigerleghorn wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:So you became an England supporter after 2003 GE, or before and dropped them after?

I don't think he'll answer you so you need to know he is a Kiwi but pretended to be English with this latest incarnation when he first started posting. Over the last few weeks he's dropped the "Tolworth" from his profile and given up with pretending to be English. He now posts in the same interesting style as his previous manifestations (no pun intended)

Oh right. Disappearing and reappearing almost like a ghost.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

tigerleghorn wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:So you became an England supporter after 2003 GE, or before and dropped them after?

I don't think he'll answer you so you need to know he is a Kiwi but pretended to be English with this latest incarnation when he first started posting. Over the last few weeks he's dropped the "Tolworth" from his profile and given up with pretending to be English. He now posts in the same interesting style as his previous manifestations (no pun intended)

Oh right. Disappearing and reappearing almost like a ghost.

Jeez, that's spooky!

I don't know why he doesn't just own up to all the ghosty antics. After all it's an open secret that he's

It just seems a bit weird to keep denying it all the time  

Personally I think that it is nigh on impossible to separate most on the list.

Speaking frankly I couldn't pick the best Captain from that Bunch but would say this.Great
players don`t always make great Captains,or Coaches most of the above BOD excepted.
During there teams successful periods had the luxury of being the Worlds best arguably
at the time.There has been some swinging statements which are not really altogether true.
Joubert was THE best Ref in RWC 2011 and got the final on merit,yes the AB`s froze but
they took all there scoring chances France didn't.There have been allegations by biased
fans about the Ref.1995 Semi final,2007 qtr final and final,2011 qtr final and final.THOSE
are fans opinions right or wrong the results stand.
Martin Johnson was a Great player,but had great Senior players around him Dallagio,Hill,Catt,etc.In the same way Brian Lochore had the support of Tremain.Meads,
Gray etc.Whineray had senior pros with him who captained there own provinces and so on.
England in 2003 by the form book were RWC Favourites NOT the All Blacks,there form in
2007 was a surprise.Thrashed by the Boks in the pool stages only JW`s goal kicking got
them to the final.2007 was weird from start to finish BUT the Boks were worthy winners
overall.MJ was not a Coach holding no certificates at any level England 2011 had no chance
of winning it at all on any known form.

Cyril wrote:I don't know why he doesn't just own up to all the ghosty antics. After all it's an open secret that he's

It just seems a bit weird to keep denying it all the time  

Cyril are you ever going to make a comment about rugby?