Greatest Captain Of The Modern Game

First topic message reminder :

The common factor in the greatest teams of the modern era is an heroic leader, a man who can give 10% more than physically possible and coax 5% more from the players around him.

These players have an aura that makes them seem bigger and more influential than one man has a right to be. They soldier on through adversity, never say die, they choose country over personal reward and they put their bodies on the line for their team.

As captains are all said to have influenced referees and single handedly changed the outcome of matches, melded men into characters of unflinching resolve and generally been top blokes as well.

But which was the best? And why? Who gave most to their country?

Take them carp fishing at Bonnie doon?

That'll sort out the captains from the boys.

Ha, yes, it's Mabo, bet he was a great captain

GloriousEmpire wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

Norfolklass wrote:

Cyril wrote:They were hardly personal attacks. I said he/she made a 'daft' comment.

Shame on you. Why doubt my sexuality?  Women like rugby. Why is that outside your belief system? Oh !!I

To be fair to Cyril, I believe it was your gender rather than your sexuality he was calling into question.

Knowing Cyril as the stickler for detail he is, and the sort of chap who wouldn't leap to any embarrassing incorrect conclusion he would undoubtably have noted that you had withheld gender information from your profile and his impeccable manners would have him respond Ina gender neutral manner to honour your apparent intention for lack of specificity in this demographic.

Yes, sorry, meant gender LOL. Wrong forum! PS I married in July to a Saffer.Am I first 606 bride?

Not everyone who comments here has a great knowledge of the game,the laws,or has played the game to any extent.BUT they have the right to an opinion and to be respected for that even if it is variance with others.Recently sensible threads have been highjacked with rubbish
about Flags,the Americas Cup and other off topic comments.
MOST here come for a sensible debate about the subject involved and should be treated as such.INSTEAD two or three recently have been trolling,bullying ,and flaming.
The only advice one can give is ignore it and treat it with the contempt it deserves and ANY
ONES OPINION is as valid as another.
Most in that list were by the record Great Captains,most also had the luxury of Great Teams
around them at the time.
Martin Johnson was a Great Player,and as a Captain led by example,he had no Qualifications
as a Coach at any Level.His England Job occurred due to Media Pressure his record was average for England post SCW and was improving when he left the Job.His Problem was some of his players discipline let himdown.
In 1995 such was the feeling in SA ,NO other team was going to win the RWC that year whoever was the Captain.The nearest thing to it was NZ in the 1956 Bok series the WHOLE
Country was willing them on.
David Kirk was Captain by default the side was Andy Daltons,That side under him then
Fitzy was the Worlds best for nearly 4 years.McCaw has been Captain of the Worlds best
side []2009 aside]since at least 2008 by the record.
Martin Johnson had the luxury of THE Worlds best side for the latter end of his reign till2003.
Eales side was probably the Worlds Best during his reign arguable but true.
Smit briefly 2009 was the best but sadly he was picked after his user date in the last few
years Bismarck Du Plessis should have started at hooker.
BOD has never had that luxury and has been a Great Player whether he was a great Captain
wouldn't like to argue.Purely because I haven't followed Ireland,BUT Irish sides have a good
HK record so they must be doing something right.
Now the Wums may start because haven't picked out one single one,it is like ALL the
Greatest Polls of the past just a matter of opinion.

I was about to say I agree with you Alan! Let's not get dragged off topic. But as I started typing  I notice I've spilled some spray bleach on my hands whilst cleaning the bath for the girlfriend (she has the flu) and my hand is going spongy. Should I worry about it do you think? Or is it normal?

I have a lot of time for Fitzpatrick in that list, even though he didn't manage to win a World Cup as captain.

If you are going to go back as far as David Kirk, and include BOD, then another captain probably warrants a mention. Finlay Calder led probably the last great Scottish side. On top of that, he led the Lions to a come-from-behind win in Australia in 1989.

Philippe Saint-André wasn't a bad captain either. That series win in New Zealand came right at the start of his tenure.

where's the box to tick grandslam and winning lions tour captain Sam warburton  

I've gone with John Smit. On the field he was an above average player who had a calming effect on the other players, and helped to bring bok-rugby back from the brain-less thug era of the Krige / Straueli days (okay: cue one-eyed comments to the effect that the boks are still brainless thugs). However, it's his off-field performance that really gets my vote. He managed to unite several different groups within the team (Afrikaans, English, White, Coloured, Black) a task that many other nation's captains don't have to do to the same degree (given SA's divided past and all). He also ably navigated the off-field politics! Sure other captains have to face media scrutiny and Rugby Administrator tom-foolery, but not many have to face politicians that are wholly against the existence of rugby in their country and would seek to mobilise popular support for the undermining of rugby itself. Not many captains have to face national politicians intervening in selection to ensure that certain players get picked and certain others don't. Smit coped with all of this, but more, he managed to charm many of his adversaries and he helped to create a place for rugby in the hearts of a much broader spectrum of the population.

Norfolklass wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

Norfolklass wrote:

Cyril wrote:They were hardly personal attacks. I said he/she made a 'daft' comment.

Shame on you. Why doubt my sexuality?  Women like rugby. Why is that outside your belief system? Oh !!I

To be fair to Cyril, I believe it was your gender rather than your sexuality he was calling into question.

Knowing Cyril as the stickler for detail he is, and the sort of chap who wouldn't leap to any embarrassing incorrect conclusion he would undoubtably have noted that you had withheld gender information from your profile and his impeccable manners would have him respond Ina gender neutral manner to honour your apparent intention for lack of specificity in this demographic.

Yes, sorry,  meant gender LOL. Wrong forum! PS I married in July to a Saffer.Am I first 606 bride?

That's ok, I forgive you

We've had other weddings on here. View and Morgannwg got married a while back. Not sure what's happened to them though. I think they're on an extended honeymoon.

John Eales for me. Possibly Johnson second then McCaw or Smit.

Buck Shelford played with a postponed prom and fired up his troops like no other but to me there was always a touch of myth and legend about his image than substance. Bring Back Buck only served to reinforce that. What McCaw did in 2011 on a dodgy foot will never go unnoticed for me. It's hard enough to play and captain a side in his position when fully fit. What he did I still find difficult to believe and for that he stands out from the rest.

That said I think Eales or the likes of Fitzpatrick were better leaders. McCaw had to grow his captaincy but at least you could say he learned from his mistakes. Eales like his nickname was perfect from the start and that makes him more intimidating and unreal but also it makes him seem less human. Nobody's. perfect so what was he really hiding well we couldn't see? People talk of Lomu as a freak but Eales for me was much more in a rugby sense. A comic book cartoon factor with some preposterous flaw that never amounted to anything significant.

Fitzy certainly had to grow in the role. In 86/87 he was battling Abercrombie for the Auckland 2 pos and for years was never considered a leader in the Auckland or Ab side, but under guys like Kirk, Shelford etc sure had good examples to follow.

I was too young to appreciate what I was witnessing Tman. Auckland's dominance maybe colors my view much like Australia's dominance. I guess they all build up legends when they win as many games as they did.

John Smit for me.... did everything for the boks. His leadership was immense and whenever he left the field the boks looked like they had no rudder.... even when they had the leadership of guys like Burger, Matfield, De Villiers still on the pitch.

I thnk George Gregan should be right up there in that list. He was immense esp. in 2003 when he with Mortlock and a few others took a vastly inferior side to within inches of causing one of the biggest upsets in RWC history.

Not suggesting he was a great player but Will Carling was a very good captain.

46N, 3 GS, 1 RWC final, 1 RWC SF.

and he is the leading KO try scorer for England at the RWC still.

I myself never thought much of him as a player until the SF in 95. The team was beat and for him, Underwood, Andrew, Richards etc it was an end of an era... but in the 2nd half he showed his own strengths and put in a big 40 mins and grabbed 2 tries... one of which was rather impressive if I recall.

Various people slam him but interestingly the only guy from the England team which has done is Jeff Probyn. The rest have always backed him.
Anyway, not to everyone's taste, I hated him myself as he epitomised everything I hated in the English but he lead his team very well and took them to places they had only dreamt of previously, and he should take a lot of credit for that.

emack2 wrote:Not everyone who comments here has a great knowledge of the game,the laws,or has played the game to any extent.BUT they have the right to an opinion and to be respected for that even if it is variance with others.Recently sensible threads have been highjacked with rubbish
about Flags,the Americas Cup and other off topic comments.
MOST here come for a sensible debate about the subject involved and should be treated as such.INSTEAD two or three recently have been trolling,bullying ,and flaming.
The only advice one can give is ignore it and treat it with the contempt it deserves and ANY
ONES OPINION is as valid as another.
Most in that list were by the record Great Captains,most also had the luxury of Great Teams
around them at the time.
Martin Johnson was a Great Player,and as a Captain led by example,he had no Qualifications
as a Coach at any Level.His England Job occurred due to Media Pressure his record was average for England post SCW and was improving when he left the Job.His Problem was some of his players discipline let himdown.
In 1995 such was the feeling in SA ,NO other team was going to win the RWC that year whoever was the Captain.The nearest thing to it was NZ in the 1956 Bok series the WHOLE
Country was willing them on.
David Kirk was Captain by default the side was Andy Daltons,That side under him then
Fitzy was the Worlds best for nearly 4 years.McCaw has been Captain of the Worlds best
side []2009 aside]since at least 2008 by the record.
Martin Johnson had the luxury of THE Worlds best side for the latter end of his reign till2003.
Eales side was probably the Worlds Best during his reign arguable but true.
Smit briefly 2009 was the best but sadly he was picked after his user date in the last few
years Bismarck Du Plessis should have started at hooker.
BOD has never had that luxury and has been a Great Player whether he was a great Captain
wouldn't like to argue.Purely because I haven't followed Ireland,BUT Irish sides have a good
HK record so they must be doing something right.
Now the Wums may start because haven't picked out one single one,it is like ALL the
Greatest Polls of the past just a matter of opinion.

Emack, brilliant post.  Someone should take the first part of your post and use it as one of the primary principles of anyones use of the 606v2 site.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

emack2 wrote:Not everyone who comments here has a great knowledge of the game,the laws,or has played the game to any extent.BUT they have the right to an opinion and to be respected for that even if it is variance with others.Recently sensible threads have been highjacked with rubbish
about Flags,the Americas Cup and other off topic comments.
MOST here come for a sensible debate about the subject involved and should be treated as such.INSTEAD two or three recently have been trolling,bullying ,and flaming.
The only advice one can give is ignore it and treat it with the contempt it deserves and ANY
ONES OPINION is as valid as another.
Most in that list were by the record Great Captains,most also had the luxury of Great Teams
around them at the time.
Martin Johnson was a Great Player,and as a Captain led by example,he had no Qualifications
as a Coach at any Level.His England Job occurred due to Media Pressure his record was average for England post SCW and was improving when he left the Job.His Problem was some of his players discipline let himdown.
In 1995 such was the feeling in SA ,NO other team was going to win the RWC that year whoever was the Captain.The nearest thing to it was NZ in the 1956 Bok series the WHOLE
Country was willing them on.
David Kirk was Captain by default the side was Andy Daltons,That side under him then
Fitzy was the Worlds best for nearly 4 years.McCaw has been Captain of the Worlds best
side []2009 aside]since at least 2008 by the record.
Martin Johnson had the luxury of THE Worlds best side for the latter end of his reign till2003.
Eales side was probably the Worlds Best during his reign arguable but true.
Smit briefly 2009 was the best but sadly he was picked after his user date in the last few
years Bismarck Du Plessis should have started at hooker.
BOD has never had that luxury and has been a Great Player whether he was a great Captain
wouldn't like to argue.Purely because I haven't followed Ireland,BUT Irish sides have a good
HK record so they must be doing something right.
Now the Wums may start because haven't picked out one single one,it is like ALL the
Greatest Polls of the past just a matter of opinion.

Emack, brilliant post.  Someone should take the first part of your post and use it as one of the primary principles of anyones use of the 606v2 site.

Agreed Bandwagon.

Alan has hit the nail on the head.

The reason why Smit was picked beyond 2009 was due to his influence in the side.

PDV has stated in his book that he actually told Smit in 07 when he took over that he wanted him up to the 09 lions tour and then Bismarck would take over, something Smit saw himself as a goal for retirement.

The only issue was that without Smit the boks leadership was shallow and PDV bulked choosing to keep Smit and not try and develop the leadership skills of Matfield or Du Preez at a test level.
Smit in the end chose the boks over his own legacy, he could have been selfish and thought, I want to go out at the top... but PDV relied on him so much he felt obliged to keep on going.... when he could have had another 2 bumper years in Europe filling up his pension.

It certainly wasn't Smit thinking I want to go on forever.

Gunner wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

emack2 wrote:Not everyone who comments here has a great knowledge of the game,the laws,or has played the game to any extent.BUT they have the right to an opinion and to be respected for that even if it is variance with others.Recently sensible threads have been highjacked with rubbish
about Flags,the Americas Cup and other off topic comments.
MOST here come for a sensible debate about the subject involved and should be treated as such.INSTEAD two or three recently have been trolling,bullying ,and flaming.
The only advice one can give is ignore it and treat it with the contempt it deserves and ANY
ONES OPINION is as valid as another.
Most in that list were by the record Great Captains,most also had the luxury of Great Teams
around them at the time.
Martin Johnson was a Great Player,and as a Captain led by example,he had no Qualifications
as a Coach at any Level.His England Job occurred due to Media Pressure his record was average for England post SCW and was improving when he left the Job.His Problem was some of his players discipline let himdown.
In 1995 such was the feeling in SA ,NO other team was going to win the RWC that year whoever was the Captain.The nearest thing to it was NZ in the 1956 Bok series the WHOLE
Country was willing them on.
David Kirk was Captain by default the side was Andy Daltons,That side under him then
Fitzy was the Worlds best for nearly 4 years.McCaw has been Captain of the Worlds best
side []2009 aside]since at least 2008 by the record.
Martin Johnson had the luxury of THE Worlds best side for the latter end of his reign till2003.
Eales side was probably the Worlds Best during his reign arguable but true.
Smit briefly 2009 was the best but sadly he was picked after his user date in the last few
years Bismarck Du Plessis should have started at hooker.
BOD has never had that luxury and has been a Great Player whether he was a great Captain
wouldn't like to argue.Purely because I haven't followed Ireland,BUT Irish sides have a good
HK record so they must be doing something right.
Now the Wums may start because haven't picked out one single one,it is like ALL the
Greatest Polls of the past just a matter of opinion.

Emack, brilliant post.  Someone should take the first part of your post and use it as one of the primary principles of anyones use of the 606v2 site.

Agreed Bandwagon.

Alan has hit the nail on the head.

Please stop going off at tangents with posts like this about carpentry, please.

Gunner wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

emack2 wrote:Not everyone who comments here has a great knowledge of the game,the laws,or has played the game to any extent.BUT they have the right to an opinion and to be respected for that even if it is variance with others.Recently sensible threads have been highjacked with rubbish
about Flags,the Americas Cup and other off topic comments.
MOST here come for a sensible debate about the subject involved and should be treated as such.INSTEAD two or three recently have been trolling,bullying ,and flaming.
The only advice one can give is ignore it and treat it with the contempt it deserves and ANY
ONES OPINION is as valid as another.
Most in that list were by the record Great Captains,most also had the luxury of Great Teams
around them at the time.
Martin Johnson was a Great Player,and as a Captain led by example,he had no Qualifications
as a Coach at any Level.His England Job occurred due to Media Pressure his record was average for England post SCW and was improving when he left the Job.His Problem was some of his players discipline let himdown.
In 1995 such was the feeling in SA ,NO other team was going to win the RWC that year whoever was the Captain.The nearest thing to it was NZ in the 1956 Bok series the WHOLE
Country was willing them on.
David Kirk was Captain by default the side was Andy Daltons,That side under him then
Fitzy was the Worlds best for nearly 4 years.McCaw has been Captain of the Worlds best
side []2009 aside]since at least 2008 by the record.
Martin Johnson had the luxury of THE Worlds best side for the latter end of his reign till2003.
Eales side was probably the Worlds Best during his reign arguable but true.
Smit briefly 2009 was the best but sadly he was picked after his user date in the last few
years Bismarck Du Plessis should have started at hooker.
BOD has never had that luxury and has been a Great Player whether he was a great Captain
wouldn't like to argue.Purely because I haven't followed Ireland,BUT Irish sides have a good
HK record so they must be doing something right.
Now the Wums may start because haven't picked out one single one,it is like ALL the
Greatest Polls of the past just a matter of opinion.

Emack, brilliant post.  Someone should take the first part of your post and use it as one of the primary principles of anyones use of the 606v2 site.

Agreed Bandwagon.

Alan has hit the nail on the head.

Please stop going off at tangents with posts like this about carpentry, please.

I agree with the sentiment Alan but if everyone's opinion is valid how are we to treat certain posters with contempt as you say? I believe that meaningful debate can be extracted from any source material just as you decide to which threads you respond. A difference of opinion is not always conflict just as what you consider relevant might not fit with my own perception. I come on here to discuss all things related to rugby. The word choke is now bring referenced with a sporting event about which you want to know nothing. I could see how that might easily come up as a topic. I've been ruing over something related to that myself. If you have no interest in responding to that you are exercising your right but so am I in writing that thread.

This is a rugby board but certain things outside of rugby like politics, race, current events to name a few have been incorporated into these threads. You may argue that some are not relevant to the rugby board or that posts are made to inflame opinions. But if a WUM writes a thread that seems relevant but people wish to respond in a way that is accustomed to the manner in which said WUM writes are they not complicit in the aforementioned wummery? WUMs write to get a response and like these gutter journalists we do the very thing they set out to achieve. Pointing out a WUM is like feeding a gremlin after midnight. If a WUM falls down in a forest and no one is around to comment on it does the WUM cease to exist?

Kia you been smoking grandad's old tobacco again???

I actually agree with you totally mate. Rugby especially in SA is a very political topic and has impacts from all sphere's... you cannot talk about rugby and no more else you would be negating direct impacts of the sport.

I agree it can be frustrating when its taken over by sensationalist posters but the best way to deal with it is to not rise to any personal attacks, not comment in the first place or have the mods sweat about it rather them yourself.

Gentlemen my point was just that EVERYONE has the right to voice an opinion without being
bullied or whatever.The response of one of the gentlemen concerned in the last few comments
with inane banality.I do not claim to have played the Game to any level except as a Schoolboy
or have great knowledge of the Laws.I DO claim to have conservable knowledge of the game
gathered over 60 years.My opinion is just that an opinion right or wrong just that,no one has the right to ridicule me for my sex,prose style etc.
Politics sadly is involved in the game I once answered a thread in depth quoting chapter and
verse about it.WHEN it gave offence I was man enough to apologise to the person concerned in open forum.
Who I choose to support or otherwise is my own choice,my opinions ditto they are INFORMED
ones based on reading,watching,and talking to people in several SH countries plus people
here etc.
People can and Cyril will keep chipping away about my AB`s support I take it as it comes.
I`m happy in the knowledge whatever I am I make no pretensions about it,and don`t rubbish others for supporting there own sides at ANY level.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:
This is a rugby board but certain things outside of rugby like politics, race, current events to name a few have been incorporated into these threads. You may argue that some are not relevant to the rugby board or that posts are made to inflame opinions.

Discussions of parsnips and nights out spring to mind.  

Beauty is in the eye of the potato.  

This was a tough one for me - I went with Johnson purely down to his success as a captain with club, country and Lions. Mighty close call, and on another day I could easily have gone with Eales or McCaw.

Great list.

Alan

The thing is about this site is that you probably need quite thick skin to keep on it. The minute you join you are dealt with with suspicion of being a WUM and you're instantly having to justify yourself, the teams you support and those you don't.

Back to topic... we see all the world cup winning captains mentioned... but what about those who didn't quite make the grade.
Daustoir was immense in 2011 as was Vickery in 2007 and Gregan in 2003... in all 3 cases they managed a broken camp, led from the front and came within inches all of glory.

Norfolklass wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

Norfolklass wrote:

Cyril wrote:

Norfolklass wrote:Martin Johnson was chosen as captain for the British Lions because of his height. He was chosen as England captain because Dallalio was forced to give up the English Captaincy for some sting tabloid misdemeanour. Johnson was his understudy.  Great player yes, lifted the performance of other players by his presence, yes. Great captain, no.

:laugh:Jeebus, the people you get on this forum!

Defend your position then. Don't mock. I don't think he's a good captain, he's an all time great player, a great leader of men into battle, but for me not a great captain. Go on actually say something about rugby instead of your pathetic attempts at ironic humour.

Great leader of men but not a great captain!!! What the hell do you think a captain is if not a leader?

The point may be too subtle for you. As a leader on the pitch MJ was great and he inspired better performances from his team mates through sheer physical presence. However as a captain, for me, he lacks rugby intelligence and Laurence Dallallio was the better natural captain. It is perfectly reasonable to assume that Dallallio would have led England to World Cup Glory had not it been for indiscretions. In addition perhaps Lions Captaincy. MJ was an unsuccessful England Coach because he could not influence games off the pitch. You may not agree with me, but I hold a reasonable point of view and certainly not deserving to be laughed at by that most boring, tedious and unfunny poster, Cyril.

So, Dayglo's "minor indiscretions" would have enhanced his Captaincy credentials? If you don't think Johnson could influence games off the pitch you have missed Tigers dominance of the 2000's. Every fan would tell you he had the refs in his pocket. Remember him refusing to move in Dublin for the presentation to the president? I guess that had no bearing on the result right? Check out "Living with the Lions" to get some idea of his captaincy skills and follow me attitude. Just what was he missing?

You have to stop somewhere though. I thought about adding Umaga and that hairy Argentinian everone raves about. Or perhaps that Welsh chap who looked destined for stardom only to upend a Frenchman and end the tournament in disgrace. So I based the list on world cup winners and then added in those mostly like to spark contentious debate.

Given the amount of cards and bans Johnson got I wouldn't go so far to say that Johnson had refs in his pockets, at least in a way that gregan did.

Yes I'm surprised that with the obvious skew expected here that most people prefer someone other than MJ.

It's a list of some truly great players - I'm not at all surprised.

I imagine for most people it's an extremely close decision.

Alan Fitzy didnt take over for the 4 years after kirk, buck shelford did, captaining an unbeaten run as captain with the 20 wins and one draw before getting dropped. Fitzy debuted in 87 and was nowhere near a captaincy option till the 90's' Buck also put the mana back into the haka and had his scrotum ripped open against the french in 86, telling the doc to stitch him up and went back on.

So no denying his commitment and contribution to AB rugby.

Quite funny when you compare these so called amateurs to modern day prima donnas like JOC.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:I agree with the sentiment Alan but if everyone's opinion is valid how are we to treat certain posters with contempt as you say?

Treat everyone with equal contempt. It's the safest way

Oh, and it's good to see Jonno doing well.

On the greatest captain? ( I have ignored all the bickering above)
Thru gritted teeth I would have to put Johnson up there - simply because of the way he led the team to the world cup. He curbed his temper which was a weakness of his and by sheer belief / force of personality drove that team to the win. I really think he was the factor that gave them the win. He was the difference.

Since MJ is out front as an individual preference, would any of those who voted care to share their thoughts on why he is superior to any if the current NH captains? Is it just the RWC win?

I can only comment on the handful of games I saw him play the ABs and the RWC but he could certainly lay down the law to his team during the game when it was needed. Would give anyone a hurry up. But that only works if you have the backing, which he clearly did. He was a tough rooster, won his line outs and executed the forward dominated and kick tactical game plan very well. And he's a gentleman off the pitch that doesn't rub people up the wrong way including non-English fans.

That's my perception anyway

One of my lads was lucky enough to have a training session with Lewis Moody recently. After the session he did a question and answer spot for the kids. One of the 13 year old asked him who his favourite player to play with him was. He immediately replied with Martin Johnson. He said that he was a man of few words but just a look or a narrowing of the famous brow was enough to motivate his team. He also said that he made the mistake of trying to rough up Jonno at a mid week training session after trying to impress after a long injury lay off.

Under his Captaincy Tigers won back to back Heineken Cups, several league titles, Grand slams,World Cup, 3 Lions tours, two as Captain winning a series in SA. Captaining England to wins in SA, Aus and NZ.

What more could he have achieved as a player?

When you come to things like this THE Greatest bit etc.Leicester and England at the Time
Of Johnson`s Captaincy were the top sides. Certainly he achieved a lot as Player/Captain
but would another player in the same sides have been just as successful.
As an example during the Great Wales/Lions period in the 1970`s John Dawes wasn't himself
considered a great player.But he was a very successful Captain.
My problem is especially with AB Captains if they are successful there lauded if not rubbished.
McCaw probably has the best win record but the recent AB sides have been extremely successful.Even in a bad year it has been something like 4 out of 13 matches the average
is 2 in a 14/15 match season.He on one foot outplayed most he opposed during the 2011
RWC.Since the RWC is considered the only bench mark here Nz wouldn't have won in 2011
without him.England in 2003 probably could have if MJ was injured.

That's speculation. The reality is, is that McCaw and Johnson were the captains of successful teams and as such would have (or do have) an influence on the team's fortunes. A good captain gets the best out of his players. A poor captain running a team of talented individuals is unlikely to be a great 'team'. I don't buy the throw anyone in there and the results would be the same argument. Not for players, coaches, or captains.

Obviously you havent watched Barcelona play football then...

I have mate, in person actually, at the nou camp. Boy that was an awesome experience. Couldn't see f-all as we were up in the heavens though and it was difficult to judge the impact of the captain.

Difference may be that a captain of a football team only makes one decision during the game, who takes the penalty kick.

emack2 wrote:When you come to things like this THE Greatest bit etc.Leicester and England at the Time
Of Johnson`s Captaincy were the top sides. Certainly he achieved a lot as Player/Captain
but would another player in the same sides have been just as successful.
As an example during the Great Wales/Lions period in the 1970`s John Dawes wasn't himself
considered a great player.But he was a very successful Captain.
My problem is especially with AB Captains if they are successful there lauded if not rubbished.
McCaw probably has the best win record but the recent AB sides have been extremely successful.Even in a bad year it has been something like 4 out of 13 matches the average
is 2 in a 14/15 match season.He on one foot outplayed most he opposed during the 2011
RWC.Since the RWC is considered the only bench mark here Nz wouldn't have won in 2011
without him.England in 2003 probably could have if MJ was injured.

To be honest I doubt England would have reached the final without Johnson. He was a rock in that side and they relied on him hevaily.... England missed out on the GS on the final day of 6N in 2000 and 2001, who wasn't playing..... Johnson. They had massive games vs. Wales and France in the QF and SF and could easily have lost those matches.
Mike Catt should take a lot of credit for those matches but Johnson set the tone. Although in the final he himself as well as Dillaglio got pinged for on the floor penalties which let AUS back into the match. You expect that from youngsters but not the 2 main leaders in your side.

McCaw... very difficult to establish credentials. Yes he's go a great record but when haven't NZ had a great record... in the dark days of Mitchell they had a win % of 82%. They certainly play worse without him but how much is that to do with him being captain and him as a player? He's been the best player in the world for a decade... any team would suffer. The same question can be applied to Johnson and any other captain really.

Would NZ really have not won the RWC without him... perhaps... esp given they were on their 3rd and 4th choice 10 come the final but the impact was less so then Johnson's.... not because Johnson was necessarily a better captain but because they were more reliant on Johnson then NZ were/are with McCaw.
The chips were down though and the way they held on with a little bit of boere help was admiral at least. That comes from senior players and McCaw is one of those... although you could also say NZ froze a little under the expectation and they were at fault there too.... a standard NZ vs. FRA match in NZ with the talent each side had at the time should not have made it a one point game.

tigerleghorn wrote:One of my lads was lucky enough to have a training session with Lewis Moody recently. After the session he did a question and answer spot for the kids. One of the 13 year old asked him who his favourite player to play with him was. He immediately replied with Martin Johnson. He said that he was a man of few words but just a look or a narrowing of the famous brow was enough to motivate his team. He also said that he made the mistake of trying to rough up Jonno at a mid week training session after trying to impress after a long injury lay off.

Under his Captaincy Tigers won back to back Heineken Cups, several league titles, Grand slams,World Cup, 3 Lions tours, two as Captain winning a series in SA. Captaining England to wins in SA, Aus and NZ.

What more could he have achieved as a player?

Nothing is the answer.

Well, he proved that he could do it. What he didn't prove was that he could do it again.

The best of the best can not just achieve, but achieve consistently and repeatedly. Look at the countless back to back AB granslams over the NH.

Sometimes I get the feeling NH players like to retire just after they've for example, beaten NZ once or gone on a successful tour rather than manning up and proving if they can do it again.

Johnson falls into this category. He shuffled off from playing and unfortuantely revealed he was no man-manager.

Johnson retired at the right time. He had a test career for 10 years and won the RWC when he was 33. McCaw was 30. Its a big diff.

When you're 33 at 37 are you going to make it to the next world cup? No, then whats the incentive. At 30 its still possible to make another world cup. Perhaps he could have made another Lions tour, but he had nothing more to prove, he'd already been on a lions tour to NZ and for some players, once they lose the fire, thats it.

Had he been a pro player throughout I think he may have continued for another season or 2 but I don't think England can have any complaints over his service.

Johnson didn't just do 1 good odd thing also, he captained a winning tour in SA... something only 2 other men in the world can boast of. He won a world cup away from home, he had a winning record against every team out there bar NZ... where he had a record of 4 wins, 4 defeats and 1 draw... not many people have a better record then that.

Well in 1997 his success was reflected light from Neil Jenkins. 2003 his success was reflected light from Jonny Wilkinson.

I'm just not sure he made a team greater than a sum of its parts, rather than just happened to be in the right place at the right time.

Evidence of this would be his failure to fashion England into their traditional tournament team in 2011.

GloriousEmpire wrote:Well in 1997 his success was reflected light from Neil Jenkins. 2003 his success was reflected light from Jonny Wilkinson.

I'm just not sure he made a team greater than a sum of its parts, rather than just happened to be in the right place at the right time.

Evidence of this would be his failure to fashion England into their traditional tournament team in 2011.

Must have missed his come back as captain or are we extending this topic?

tigerleghorn wrote:One of my lads was lucky enough to have a training session with Lewis Moody recently. After the session he did a question and answer spot for the kids. One of the 13 year old asked him who his favourite player to play with him was. He immediately replied with Martin Johnson. He said that he was a man of few words but just a look or a narrowing of the famous brow was enough to motivate his team. He also said that he made the mistake of trying to rough up Jonno at a mid week training session after trying to impress after a long injury lay off.

Under his Captaincy Tigers won back to back Heineken Cups, several league titles, Grand slams,World Cup, 3 Lions tours, two as Captain winning a series in SA. Captaining England to wins in SA, Aus and NZ.

What more could he have achieved as a player?

Sums it up nicely. I'm sure GE will disagree though.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Well in 1997 his success was reflected light from Neil Jenkins. 2003 his success was reflected light from Jonny Wilkinson.

I'm just not sure he made a team greater than a sum of its parts, rather than just happened to be in the right place at the right time.

Evidence of this would be his failure to fashion England into their traditional tournament team in 2011.

Must have missed his come back as captain or are we extending this topic?

Re-read the post and you'll see my point.

Being a good captain has nothing to do with being a good coach.

List the best coaches of the last decade or so.... Henry, White, Jones, Woodward... none of them were test players bar Woodward who was a good player but nothing special and certainly not a team man.

Why is it that all the best captains of the bygone era hardly ever made it into management. Often the most natural of players find it hard to relate to those who have to work at their game. What they see as simple, others see as impossible. They have impeccable standard, others less so.