A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser

by hazharrison Wed 25 Sep 2013, 7:07 pm

First topic message reminder :

Can't see Truss being happy with this:

http://www.thesweetscience.com/news/articles-frontpage/17280-a-look-back-at-mayweather-alvarez-part-one

"Also, as great a fighter as Mayweather is, there’s one flaw on his resume. He has consistently avoided the best available opposition.

A fighter doesn’t have to be bloodied and knocked down and come off the canvas to prove his greatness. A fighter can also prove that he has the heart of a legendary champion by testing himself against the best available competition.

Mayweather has done neither.

Floyd said earlier this month, “I push myself to the limit by fighting the best.”

That has all the sincerity of posturing by a political candidate.

Mayweather has some outstanding victories on his ring record. But his career has been marked by the avoidance of tough opponents in their prime.

There always seems to be someone who Mayweather is ducking. The most notable example was his several-year avoidance of Manny Pacquiao. Bob Arum (Pacquiao’s promoter) might not have wanted the fight. But Manny clearly did. And it appeared as though Floyd didn’t.

Mayweather also steered clear of Paul Williams, Antonio Margarito, and Miguel Cotto in their prime. He waited to fight Cotto until Miguel (like Shane Mosley) was a shell of his former self. Then Floyd made a show of saying that he’d fight Cotto at 154 pounds so Miguel would be at his best. But when Sergio Martinez offered to come down to 154, Floyd said that he’d only fight Martinez at 150 (an impossible weight for Sergio to make).

Thus, Frank Lotierzo writes, “Mayweather has picked his spots in one way or another throughout his career. Floyd got over big time on Juan Manuel Marquez with his weigh-in trickery at the last moment. He fought Oscar De La Hoya and barely won when Oscar was a corpse. Shane Mosley was an empty package when he finally fought him seven years after the fight truly meant anything. As terrific as Mayweather is, he's not the Bible of boxing the way he projects himself as being. He came along when there were some other outstanding fighters at or near his weight. Yet, aside from the late Diego Corrales, he has never met any of them when the fight would have confirmed his greatness. It would be great to write about Mayweather and laud all that he has accomplished as a fighter without bringing up these inconvenient facts. But it can't be done if you're being intellectually honest.”

“Mayweather,” Lotierzo continues, “wouldn't be the face of boxing today if there was an Ali, Leonard, De La Hoya, or Tyson around. But they're long gone. Give him credit for being able to make a safety-first counter-puncher who avoided the only fight fans wanted him to deliver [into] the face of what once was the greatest sport in the world.”"

by azania Wed 02 Oct 2013, 9:47 pm

I'd back Floyd to nullify Taylor's speed. Accuracy and that instinctive knowledge when to throw the punch and what punch to throw is what separates Floyd from most others in and around his weight. The punches can be taught, but when to throw them cannot in many cases.

by hazharrison Wed 02 Oct 2013, 9:48 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Haz is one of the most informed and knowledgeable posters on here and he's a right to disagree......

My one problem is with his selectivity of experts to back his case...A trait d4 mastered to a tee.....

Hauser's Ali book was one of the most researched I've ever read a real work of art.......His love for the period shone through..........

Which makes one think like Haz himself his heart is in Boxing's past.......and like it or not it shapes opinion.......

Disagree with Haz on this but appreciate his often excellent contribution........

Cheers bud. Wouldn't be much of a board if everyone agreed.

by milkyboy Wed 02 Oct 2013, 9:48 pm

hazharrison wrote:Taylor a nightmare for any 140 pounder - fastest thing on two legs.

outreached by floyd though haz, so suspect he'd pick him off before he got in range, buzzing combinations though, which in theory is the counterpuncher's nightmare. Be interesting.

by hazharrison Wed 02 Oct 2013, 9:52 pm

milkyboy wrote:
hazharrison wrote:Taylor a nightmare for any 140 pounder - fastest thing on two legs.
outreached by floyd though haz, so suspect he'd pick him off before he got in range, buzzing combinations though, which in theory is the counterpuncher's nightmare. Be interesting.

Yeah - tough to call that one. Judah's speed fared him well against Floyd and Taylor was quicker (and threw more combinations).

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 02 Oct 2013, 9:52 pm

Taylor was a huge underachiever.......Saw him beat Buddy Mcgirt and couldn't believe anyone would shut out a boxer of his class..........

Badly managed for sure..........Norris was a joke..........Never recovered from the Julio robbery....

Sad to see him now but in all fairness I could see him beating Floyd.......certainly had the style but being 5 ft 6 would give away height and reach and If it was at 140 Floyd would punch harder..

Mayweather slight favorite.......but only slight.........

by milkyboy Wed 02 Oct 2013, 9:56 pm

hazharrison wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Haz is one of the most informed and knowledgeable posters on here and he's a right to disagree......

My one problem is with his selectivity of experts to back his case...A trait d4 mastered to a tee.....

Hauser's Ali book was one of the most researched I've ever read a real work of art.......His love for the period shone through..........

Which makes one think like Haz himself his heart is in Boxing's past.......and like it or not it shapes opinion.......

Disagree with Haz on this but appreciate his often excellent contribution........
Cheers bud. Wouldn't be much of a board if everyone agreed.

You're getting all Dewey eyed for the old 606, truss. Like when zoomy pops in just before a mayweather fight. All we'd need is LRR, and we can sit back and watch the fireworks. Very Happy

by azania Wed 02 Oct 2013, 9:56 pm

I wouldn't call Taylor an under achiever. He achieved a lot. 2 seconds away from immortality. Then punch drunk set in.

by milkyboy Wed 02 Oct 2013, 9:59 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Taylor was a huge underachiever.......Saw him beat Buddy Mcgirt and couldn't believe anyone would shut out a boxer of his class..........

Badly managed for sure..........Norris was a joke..........Never recovered from the Julio robbery....

Sad to see him now but in all fairness I could see him beating Floyd.......certainly had the style but being 5 ft 6 would give away height and reach and If it was at 140 Floyd would punch harder..

Mayweather slight favorite.......but only slight.........

... When you consider the trouble McGirt caused Whittaker, it puts that into perspective. Funny to think of a natural light welter being at a physical disadvantage to floyd, but you have a point.

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 02 Oct 2013, 10:03 pm

Never disliked LRR.........Always found it quite comforting knowing whenever I posted and wherever I posted I'd have an Oscar Wilde-esq like riposte waiting soon after......

Of course revisionists always suggest he owned me mercilessly but It escaped my attention at the time........

by milkyboy Wed 02 Oct 2013, 10:22 pm

It's ok to be owned by someone who thought Ali was crap.

I second your comments on it being good to have haz here. Good to have steel town cobra too and the captain popping by. Some fresh faces too.

It's looking up.

by Scottrf Wed 02 Oct 2013, 10:32 pm

Pacqiao to beat Floyd at SFW is an odd choice, while he was getting outboxed by Marquez.

Forrest would be an interesting stylistic matchup.

by Hammersmith harrier Wed 02 Oct 2013, 11:02 pm

Arguello and Hearns with the straightness of their punches would offer a problem that Mayweather has yet to face while Forrest probably has the best welterweight jab since Hearns.

by **88Chris05** Wed 02 Oct 2013, 11:17 pm

Forrest (God rest his soul) is an odd one. Had great size for a Welter, could punch a bit and, as he himself said after beating Mosley (and as he showed in those fights), he knew how to box against speed.

But he just tended to drift in and out of form too much for my liking. When he was good, he was excellent or even outstanding (Mosley I, Mora II). When he was bad, he was completely woeful (Mayorga I and II, and the Quartey fight in which he got a total gift).

I think he was lacking a bit mentally, to be honest, and Floyd would have outthought and rattled him, throwing him off his game plan. That first fight against Mayorga is just about THE very definition of fighting the other man's fight when you've got the skills not to. I agree that from a styles point of view he'd cause Mayweather problems, but I'd see Floyd's ring smarts winning a decision in a competitive fight.

by Lumbering_Jack Thu 03 Oct 2013, 7:51 am

It's hard to take the list of Az seriously. It's changed from 7 days ago and he's moved RJJ up the list based on his exploits of the last 4 years. KO defeats don't really enhance your standing.

by TopHat24/7 Thu 03 Oct 2013, 9:42 am

milkyboy wrote:
88Chris05 wrote:This threads got a bit heavy and dark, hasn't it! We should try and steer it back on track.

Speaking of 'experts' (oops, sorry!), in last week's 'Boxing News', boxing historian and author Nigel Collins gave his five fighters (one from each of the divisions in which Mayweather has won titles) who he'd either pick outright to beat Mayweather, or alternatively at least have the best chance of beating him, from the past thirty-five years or so.

Have to say that some of his picks didn't strike me as the most obvious or logical ones, but in Collins' defence he did state that he would keep it to fighters he'd watched from ringside throughout his career.

His picks were;

Super-Featherweight: Pacquiao
Lightweight: Mosley
Light-Welterweight: Pryor
Welterweight: Ray Leonard
Light-Middleweight: McCallum

This was all assuming, of course, that the names mentioned above were at the peaks when facing Floyd at those particular weights.

What does everyone else reckon? Collins' aim any good, for you?
I hate to interupt the foreplay between haz and az.

But... i'd quite like to have seen floyd Taylor and floyd Oscar at 140. Always thought Oscar looked a better fighter at the lighter weights, abd there was enough in their actual fight to suggest s younger, faster, fitter Oscar gives him plenty of trouble. Floyd Norris at 154 would have been interesting too. However, my 5 would be:

Superfeather Manny
Lightweight Whittaker
Light welter: Pryor
Welter: Leonard
Light middle: hearns

That's be my list pretty much, though the LW fight would be tough call, Whittaker not really a cert. It'd be a chess match with minimal action and I could see it play out 10 times with various SD's. A Duran fight at LW would be much more interesting......

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 03 Oct 2013, 10:02 am

Benitez wasn't as good as Floyd and the fact he outboxed Duran for me is enlightening.....

Mayweather-Duran is a bit like Hatton-Mayweather........Mayweather waits the early onslaught out and then dominates with the jab........Duran would be more competitive.....than Ricky as he had a better boxing brain..

Duran never beat a "boxer" of note above 135........Leonard slugged.........and we saw what happened when he didn't......

I'd pick whittaker and Taylor to beat Roberto (certainly the Taylor that destroyed Buddy)..........Also pick Brown, Starling and Breland to beat him at 147 and the Honey that beat Curry........

Curry was too good for him........at 147.......

Moore and Barkley weren't slicksters.........and they were his best victories bar Leonard 1........

Mayweather was all wrong for Roberto........

Duran vs Pryor at 140 would be more interesting.........

Duran was Boxing's biggest overachiever and it's a credit to him he made a good talent into a great career.......Kudos to him for it.......

by TopHat24/7 Thu 03 Oct 2013, 10:12 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Benitez wasn't as good as Floyd and the fact he outboxed Duran for me is enlightening.....

Mayweather-Duran is a bit like Hatton-Mayweather........Mayweather waits the early onslaught out and then dominates with the jab........Duran would be more competitive.....than Ricky as he had a better boxing brain..

Duran never beat a "boxer" of note above 135........Leonard slugged.........and we saw what happened when he didn't......

I'd pick whittaker and Taylor to beat Roberto (certainly the Taylor that destroyed Buddy)..........Also pick Brown, Starling and Breland to beat him at 147 and the Honey that beat Curry........

Curry was too good for him........at 147.......

Moore and Barkley weren't slicksters.........and they were his best victories bar Leonard 1........

Mayweather was all wrong for Roberto........

Duran vs Pryor at 140 would be more interesting.........

Duran was Boxing's biggest overachiever and it's a credit to him he made a good talent into a great career.......Kudos to him for it.......

1. What weight was SRL at?
2. The fight isn't above 135.

Also, I wasn't saying it was a shoe-in, just more 'interesting' than a Sweet Pea chess match. I'd back Floyd 6 times out of 10 maybe, but he's no cert and at Duran's best weight he could be devastating and was a greater master of dirty tricks than Floyd even.

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 03 Oct 2013, 10:14 am

"Leonard slugged"......

by TopHat24/7 Thu 03 Oct 2013, 10:22 am

Ah, that old chesnut, disregard Leonard's loss as a fluke by Duran but then when SRL pushed Manos straight back into a rematch when he was out of shape and in party mode - that is a credible win.

SRL>Floyd. If Duran could make SRL fight his fight once I'm sure he could Floyd.

That also doesn't answer any of the other points. Particularly the key one - being the fight isn't 'above 135' anyway.

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 03 Oct 2013, 10:28 am

Taken out of context again.......

Where did I say it was a fluke..........He psyched Leonard out into slugging with him and won a fight that could have gone either way..........But it went his way and he deserves the kudos for it.......

But I am suggesting Leonard fought the wrong fight yes.....

Leonard didn't box Duran the first time......

by TopHat24/7 Thu 03 Oct 2013, 10:34 am

TopHat24/7 wrote:
SRL>Floyd. If Duran could make SRL fight his fight once I'm sure he could Floyd.

That also doesn't answer any of the other points. Particularly the key one - being the fight isn't 'above 135' anyway.

by Lumbering_Jack Thu 03 Oct 2013, 10:36 am

Leonard didn't box because he wasn't allowed to. The spew that is thrown around to try and big up Floyd is crazy.

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 03 Oct 2013, 10:38 am

But he was allowed to in the 2nd fight.........Read Leonard's book.......

Then again don't bother just wait around for Az.......

Like I said you don't add anything but bile and spite..

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 03 Oct 2013, 10:39 am

TopHat24/7 wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
SRL>Floyd. If Duran could make SRL fight his fight once I'm sure he could Floyd.

That also doesn't answer any of the other points. Particularly the key one - being the fight isn't 'above 135' anyway.

Leonard chose to slug with Duran.....Read his book..........He couldn't make Benitez, Laing, hearns, leonard 2 slug .........

by TopHat24/7 Thu 03 Oct 2013, 10:45 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
SRL>Floyd. If Duran could make SRL fight his fight once I'm sure he could Floyd.

That also doesn't answer any of the other points. Particularly the key one - being the fight isn't 'above 135' anyway.
Leonard chose to slug with Duran.....Read his book..........He couldn't make Benitez, Laing, hearns, leonard 2 slug .........

How many of those fights were at 135? I forget?

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 03 Oct 2013, 10:50 am

What has 135 got to do with anything.........

I'm talking about his career post 135.......

His career at 135 was full of no marks.......With Buchanan and Dejesus 2-1, chucked in..

by TopHat24/7 Thu 03 Oct 2013, 10:55 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:What has 135 got to do with anything.........

I'm talking about his career post 135.......

His career at 135 was full of no marks.......With Buchanan and Dejesus 2-1, chucked in..

Ermmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm everything when the question is "Who at 135 could beat Mayweather Jr"???????????????????????????????

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 03 Oct 2013, 11:00 am

Alright dejesus outslicked Duran and then decked him in the rematch until he faded in 130 degree heat......

Also Duran couldn't stop Viruet in two times of asking and he was ordinary......

So mayweather, floyd, Chavez, camacho and whittaker all beat him for me as does Manny..

You won't have heard of Viruet.......I know but he is relevant..........Rosario ko'd him in two...and Edwin couldn't stop Chavez or camacho.

by TopHat24/7 Thu 03 Oct 2013, 11:09 am

Dejesus is the only guy to beat Duran at his best weight, the weight in consideration here, and Duran ko'd him in the rubber and the rubber rubber. And DJ was no bum.

Like I said, I'd back PBF more often than not, but I don't think he'd find it easy and I'd back Duran to win his fair share and rough Floyd up like no other boxer has ever been able to do.

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 03 Oct 2013, 11:13 am

You aren't telling me anything i don't know already..........

Camacho was a slick beast at 135...........chavez body attack for me would wear Roberto down (Chavez was much better than Viruet).........Maywearther is too everything.........Oscar's jab would own him.......

Whittaker shuts him out........

Duran fought two decent opponents at lightweight and the rest is longevity.......a la calzaghe.......and he lost to one of them.......

Just my opinion which I'm entitled to..........

by Lumbering_Jack Thu 03 Oct 2013, 11:16 am

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 03 Oct 2013, 11:20 am

88Chris05 wrote:Forrest (God rest his soul) is an odd one. Had great size for a Welter, could punch a bit and, as he himself said after beating Mosley (and as he showed in those fights), he knew how to box against speed.

But he just tended to drift in and out of form too much for my liking. When he was good, he was excellent or even outstanding (Mosley I, Mora II). When he was bad, he was completely woeful (Mayorga I and II, and the Quartey fight in which he got a total gift).

I think he was lacking a bit mentally, to be honest, and Floyd would have outthought and rattled him, throwing him off his game plan. That first fight against Mayorga is just about THE very definition of fighting the other man's fight when you've got the skills not to. I agree that from a styles point of view he'd cause Mayweather problems, but I'd see Floyd's ring smarts winning a decision in a competitive fight.

Vernon was a disappointment.......I expected him to beat Mayorga............Some guys perform better when little is expected of them.......

One thing for sure is Vernon was a nice guy and his life was cut cruelly short........

by Hammersmith harrier Thu 03 Oct 2013, 11:41 am

Chavez doesn't beat Duran in a month of Sundays, he outmatched in every single department. Durans lightweight reign is far better than you make out, you just can't stand the fact the most highly regarded boxer since Ali isn't American.

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 03 Oct 2013, 11:44 am

With respect he isn't..........

He's more durable....Had a better chin....He was a better body puncher.........and Duran was no Sugar ray leonard.......

Rosario wasn't called little hands of stone for nothing and look what he did to him......

Duran leads early until the body stuff wears him down..

by Hammersmith harrier Thu 03 Oct 2013, 11:47 am

Chavez is none of those things, Duran trumps him in every department. Duran beats him any which way he chooses he's simply better.

With respect Duran is regarded higher than the rest of the Fab Four and Mayweather, something you hate.

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 03 Oct 2013, 11:49 am

No he doesn't..........Chavez had a great body attack and was durable........never off his feet at 130-135.......

Duran was..............

With respect Leonard is rated the highest of the fab 4.......

by Hammersmith harrier Thu 03 Oct 2013, 11:53 am

Leonard really? By you maybe but I'd place Duran above him any day.

The same Duran who Leonard, Benitez, Hagler, Castro and Barkley couldn't put a dent in, don't be blinded by Hearns.

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 03 Oct 2013, 11:55 am

If you look on page 2 you'll see only you and strongy rate Duran higher ......"The top 10 greatest fighters of alltime list thread "........whilst almost everyone else out of the 35 or so lists has Ray.......including chris, Rowley and I believe the Captain has him also......

Now not for a minute suggesting this means I'm right to have him as such but it invalidates your statement that "Duran is regarded the best of the fab 4 and I hate it"..

as it's debatable at best..........

by Hammersmith harrier Thu 03 Oct 2013, 11:58 am

Last time I did a combined list Duran was 9th with Leonard 12th.

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 03 Oct 2013, 12:03 pm

Maybe you should do another one then.........

I've just glanced at the thread...........and paperbag, gentleman 01, Hogey, mobile, Rowley, Chris, captain and myself all have Leonard higher........and that's just a quarter of the thread.......

Whatever your combined list it's still contentious and not enough to validate the statement..

"Duran is regarded higher out of all the fab 4 and you hate it"........

as it's at worst wrong and at best contentious..

Azania regards Leonard as the best p4per that ever lived.........which is praise too far.

by Hammersmith harrier Thu 03 Oct 2013, 12:19 pm

I would say that overall Duran, Mayweather, Whitaker and the two Leonards are in the same 8-15 group, yes I do believe that your dislike for Duran is largely down to his nationality. Not saying you're racist but you clearly have your favourites and they all seem to be american. I wouldn't argue too much with Leonard being ever so slightly higher but no chance is he the greatest of them all, he has far too few top level fights to come into consideration.

by azania Thu 03 Oct 2013, 12:28 pm

Can we stop playing the race card please. People are too quick to throw that jibe when losing the argument.

Hammersmith is chaves American?

by hazharrison Thu 03 Oct 2013, 12:29 pm

I'd have Duran above both Leonards -- the only guy who tends to be guaranteed a top ten rating from most historian lists I've come across.

The Leonards would be around 10, ahead of Whitaker who'd make my top 20.

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 03 Oct 2013, 12:30 pm

hazharrison wrote:I'd have Duran above both Leonards --

No S**t.

by Hammersmith harrier Thu 03 Oct 2013, 12:30 pm

Last time I checked being american wasn't a race and the irony of the most racially biased poster saying such a thing.

by hazharrison Thu 03 Oct 2013, 12:31 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
hazharrison wrote:I'd have Duran above both Leonards --
No S**t.

No - straight up.

by Rowley Thu 03 Oct 2013, 12:32 pm

Will make this whole race issue really easy for you all. Either you stop throwing the accusations around at each other or I will stop it for you. I am easy either way.

by hazharrison Thu 03 Oct 2013, 12:34 pm

Boxing News' top 100 fighters

1. Ray Robinson
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Joe Louis
5. Ray Leonard
6. Roberto Duran
7. Harry Greb
8. Jimmy Wilde
9. Willie Pep
10. Archie Moore
11. Benny Leonard
12. Jack Johnson
13. Carlos Monzon
14. Marvin Hagler
15. Sam Langford
16. Stanley Ketchel
17. Tony Canzoneri
18. Sandy Saddler
19. Gene Tunney
20. Jack Dempsey
21. Rocky Marciano
22. Joe Gans
23. Julio Cesar Chavez
23. Pernell Whitaker
25. Larry Holmes
26. Ezzard Charles
27. Evander Holyfield
28. Eder Jofre
29. Mickey Walker
30. Thomas Hearns
31. Alexis Arguello
32. Jose Napoles
33. George Foreman
34. Joe Frazier
35. Lennox Lewis
36. Roy Jones Jr.
37. Kid Gavilan
38. Michael Spinks
39. Barney Ross
40. Jimmy McLarnin
41. Floyd Mayweather
42. Manny Pacquiao

HOLD ON A SEC.....HAGLER ABOVE FLOYD!!!!!!!!!!!! WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by azania Thu 03 Oct 2013, 12:36 pm

I think we should all take heed of what Rowley said for a change.

by Rowley Thu 03 Oct 2013, 12:37 pm

In all fairness Haz the Boxing News list was terrible. If memory serves they had Fitzsimmons down in the 60s which is inexcusably low and like all these lists tend to do they favoured the heavyweights to shameful levels. Love the magazine dearly but thought the list was very poor on the whole.

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