A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser

First topic message reminder :

Can't see Truss being happy with this:

http://www.thesweetscience.com/news/articles-frontpage/17280-a-look-back-at-mayweather-alvarez-part-one

"Also, as great a fighter as Mayweather is, there’s one flaw on his resume. He has consistently avoided the best available opposition.

A fighter doesn’t have to be bloodied and knocked down and come off the canvas to prove his greatness. A fighter can also prove that he has the heart of a legendary champion by testing himself against the best available competition.

Mayweather has done neither.

Floyd said earlier this month, “I push myself to the limit by fighting the best.”

That has all the sincerity of posturing by a political candidate.

Mayweather has some outstanding victories on his ring record. But his career has been marked by the avoidance of tough opponents in their prime.

There always seems to be someone who Mayweather is ducking. The most notable example was his several-year avoidance of Manny Pacquiao. Bob Arum (Pacquiao’s promoter) might not have wanted the fight. But Manny clearly did. And it appeared as though Floyd didn’t.

Mayweather also steered clear of Paul Williams, Antonio Margarito, and Miguel Cotto in their prime. He waited to fight Cotto until Miguel (like Shane Mosley) was a shell of his former self. Then Floyd made a show of saying that he’d fight Cotto at 154 pounds so Miguel would be at his best. But when Sergio Martinez offered to come down to 154, Floyd said that he’d only fight Martinez at 150 (an impossible weight for Sergio to make).

Thus, Frank Lotierzo writes, “Mayweather has picked his spots in one way or another throughout his career. Floyd got over big time on Juan Manuel Marquez with his weigh-in trickery at the last moment. He fought Oscar De La Hoya and barely won when Oscar was a corpse. Shane Mosley was an empty package when he finally fought him seven years after the fight truly meant anything. As terrific as Mayweather is, he's not the Bible of boxing the way he projects himself as being. He came along when there were some other outstanding fighters at or near his weight. Yet, aside from the late Diego Corrales, he has never met any of them when the fight would have confirmed his greatness. It would be great to write about Mayweather and laud all that he has accomplished as a fighter without bringing up these inconvenient facts. But it can't be done if you're being intellectually honest.”

“Mayweather,” Lotierzo continues, “wouldn't be the face of boxing today if there was an Ali, Leonard, De La Hoya, or Tyson around. But they're long gone. Give him credit for being able to make a safety-first counter-puncher who avoided the only fight fans wanted him to deliver [into] the face of what once was the greatest sport in the world.”"

Michael spinks regards Mayweather as one of the greatest fighters of alltime and Oscar doesn't ........

Who should I respect more ?????

Still think throwing all your eggs in one basket is stupid........

As for Pep think he's slightly overrated.........when a historian says he won a round without throwing a punch you know you're in rose-tinted Country..

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:He also lost 3 times out of 4 to Saddler, I don't hard it against as much as others because with a modern ref I think he wins 4 out of 4 but you can argue he wasn't even the best featherweight of his era.

Pep rates higher, though. Similar scenario to Bowe-Holyfield.

I'll be honest the 1950's featherweights are a bit of a blind spot for me but there isn't a great deal on Peps record from what I can see, Bartolo, Wright and Famechon being the standouts.

 
Jock Leslie, Humberto Sirra, Paddy DeMarco, Phil Terranova, Joey Archibald, Sal Bartola, Chalky Wright, Allie Stolz, Bobby "Poison" Ivy, Lulu Constantino, Jackie Wilson, Willie Joyce.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Michael spinks regards Mayweather as one of the greatest fighters of alltime and Oscar doesn't ........

Who should I respect more ?????..

Bob Mee.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Michael spinks regards Mayweather as one of the greatest fighters of alltime and Oscar doesn't ........

Who should I respect more ?????

Still think throwing all your eggs in one basket is stupid........

As for Pep think he's slightly overrated.........when a historian says he won a round without throwing a punch you know you're in rose-tinted Country..

I don't really the point you're trying to make. You keep throwing round fighters names without explaining yourself. All you're doing is spewing nonsense everywhere..

All fighters pick their opponents to a certain extent.............

Why Did Duran go for Barkley instead of Nunn or Mccallum........Probably because at that stage of his career he knew that was his best shot.......If Hearns had beat Barkley would duran have fought him ??

Leonard picked his moment with Hagler............Robbo reneged on Turpin 3........Dempsey-Burley

Not to diminish these wonderful fighters but to show It happens...

My points aren't aimed at you Lumbering just ignore my posts..

hazharrison wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Michael spinks regards Mayweather as one of the greatest fighters of alltime and Oscar doesn't ........

Who should I respect more ?????..

Bob Mee.

Ha ha...I'll have to research this guy.....I was going to join the scientology cult..but I think I'll join his instead..

I see no reason why they are any better than the men Mayweather has fought, on the whole a bunch of contenders who didn't amount to much especially Jock Leslie.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:All fighters pick their opponents to a certain extent.............

Why Did Duran go for Barkley instead of Nunn or Mccallum........Probably because at that stage of his career he knew that was his best shot.......If Hearns had beat Barkley would duran have fought him ??

Leonard picked his moment with Hagler............Robbo reneged on Turpin 3........Dempsey-Burley

Not to diminish these wonderful fighters but to show It happens...

My points aren't aimed at you Lumbering just ignore my posts..

Duran didn't choose not to fight Leonard.
Leonard didn't choose not to fight Hearns.

You're wasting your time with this mong. He's blinded by his own arrogance.

No but they avoided fighters until the time was right............Robbo didn't want Turpin 3..

Holmes even gave up his belt to avoid Page.........You rate him.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:No but they avoided fighters until the time was right............Robbo didn't want Turpin 3..

Holmes even gave up his belt to avoid Page.........You rate him.

Do you believe either of those statements?

Lumbering_Jack wrote:You're wasting your time with this mong. He's blinded by his own arrogance.

Go away.....nobody respects your opinion......You have no knowledge to offer........You're just a vile, abusive, shallow sad loser.

hazharrison wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:No but they avoided fighters until the time was right............Robbo didn't want Turpin 3..

Holmes even gave up his belt to avoid Page.........You rate him.

Do you believe either of those statements?

Common knowledge the WBC mandated Page and Holmes gave up the belt to fight IBF stiffs... Not a case of believing........It's fact.

Holmes ducked Page
Hagler ducked Hearns
Robinson ducked Turpin

Floyd didn't duck Pacquiao

Entertaining, I'll give you that.

I said floyd and Manny were both responsible........Never said he didn't duck manny...Just that there were extenuating circumstances..

Holmes did duck Page..............Hagler said hearns didn't deserve a rematch.......Turpin's promoter Soloman tried to sue SRR for renegaging on a deal......

I back up my statements.............Just like Bob Mee......... 

Come on man. Holmes beat everyone who beat Page in an era of extreme politicking. Hagler destroyed Hearns. Robinson whupped Turpin.

Mayweather didn't want to risk his unbeaten record against his greatest rival.  

Mate I'm not suggesting Holmes didn't have a great career.......but at that time post the contentious decision against witherspoon he wanted an easy life.......

Page had a big reputation then.............and was highly regarded.........

Larry took the IBF so he could fight Bey, Smith and stiffs like that..

With all due respect it was common knowledge back home Holmes was handpicking his fighters and objected to Page..

I know you don't like floyd and look for any way you can to bring him down.......But great warrior though larry was........Post Witherspoon he didn't want trouble.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Mate I'm not suggesting Holmes didn't have a great career.......but at that time post the contentious decision against witherspoon he wanted an easy life.......

Page had a big reputation then.............and was highly regarded.........

Larry took the IBF so he could fight Bey, Smith and stiffs like that..

With all due respect it was common knowledge back home Holmes was handpicking his fighters and objected to Page..

I know you don't like floyd and look for any way you can to bring him down.......But great warrior though larry was........Post Witherspoon he didn't want trouble.

Do you think Floyd was thinking the same?

Post Witherspoon..........Holmes took on Marvis frazier and scott Frank........Most of the press and HBO had witherspoon beating Larry.......I did too.......As did the historian Angelo Dundee!! 

Larry had a tissy fit because Page was mandatory and he was much higher regarded than Timmy Witherspoon......

Trust me on this one...........Page was interviewed saying how upset he was that Holmes wouldn't fight him..

Think it's on youtube........Ask bob Mee he'll agree with me..trust me !!

I think Floyd didn't fancy Manny and certainly not for 50/50........Arum was more to blame than Manny........who I think goes with the flow.......Never suggest Manny would duck anybody.....

Arum's ego got in the way......If manny took 40% it would have been much more than he'd ever have earned..

Think after Marquez - Manny ..Floyd probably thinks he should have taken the fight......

But I suggest Floyd is ranked on fights he fought not ones he didn't......

Burley isn't held against Dempsey........

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Burley isn't held against Dempsey........

I wouldn't think so, Dempsey was probably too big.

Robinson?

Scottrf wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Burley isn't held against Dempsey........

I wouldn't think so, Dempsey was probably too big.

Would have still taken him.

Scotty has committed the ultimate sin....

That old chestnut.

Robinson wasn't in the same vicinity as Burley. They turned pro at different times and at different weights. When Robinson moved up to middleweight (officially) in 1950, Burley retired (or had retired that year).

Nothing like the same scenario.

hazharrison wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:He also lost 3 times out of 4 to Saddler, I don't hard it against as much as others because with a modern ref I think he wins 4 out of 4 but you can argue he wasn't even the best featherweight of his era.

Pep rates higher, though. Similar scenario to Bowe-Holyfield.

I'll be honest the 1950's featherweights are a bit of a blind spot for me but there isn't a great deal on Peps record from what I can see, Bartolo, Wright and Famechon being the standouts.

 
Jock Leslie, Humberto Sirra, Paddy DeMarco, Phil Terranova, Joey Archibald, Sal Bartola, Chalky Wright, Allie Stolz, Bobby "Poison" Ivy, Lulu Constantino, Jackie Wilson, Willie Joyce.

Again, maybe just my ignorance, but not sure how those guys greatly exceed a unbeaten career covering 20lbs including wins of Hernandez, Corrales, Castillo (x2), Gatti, Judah, ODLH, Hatton, JMM, Cotto and Alvarez.

Now, now Haz, Burley could have been accommodated at welter had Ray chosen. Charley was only really fighting at middle due to his lack of opportunities down at welter. The situation is not really the same as Floyd and Manny because at no point were Robbo and Charley the undisputed number one and two in the sport, but there is certainly enough anecdotal evidence to suggest Robinson at worst did not fancy facing Burley or at best viewed him as too much risk for not enough reward.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:He also lost 3 times out of 4 to Saddler, I don't hard it against as much as others because with a modern ref I think he wins 4 out of 4 but you can argue he wasn't even the best featherweight of his era.

Pep rates higher, though. Similar scenario to Bowe-Holyfield.

I'll be honest the 1950's featherweights are a bit of a blind spot for me but there isn't a great deal on Peps record from what I can see, Bartolo, Wright and Famechon being the standouts.

 
Jock Leslie, Humberto Sirra, Paddy DeMarco, Phil Terranova, Joey Archibald, Sal Bartola, Chalky Wright, Allie Stolz, Bobby "Poison" Ivy, Lulu Constantino, Jackie Wilson, Willie Joyce.

Again, maybe just my ignorance, but not sure how those guys greatly exceed a unbeaten career covering 20lbs including wins of Hernandez, Corrales, Castillo (x2), Gatti, Judah, ODLH, Hatton, JMM, Cotto and Alvarez.

The return win over Saddler alone trumps anything on that list.

Funny thing is Martinez last four fights have been Macklin, Barker, Chavez jr and Murray...

Mayweather's have been Ortiz, Guerrero, Alvarez and Cotto..........Count the titles..

Yet Floyd is criticised for his opponents ad nauseum...........

There isn't a fighter around today who fights the quality Floyd does.......apart from Manny

Ward's opponents are good but he's slagged off for being boring.......

Some guys can't win........

hazharrison wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:No but they avoided fighters until the time was right............Robbo didn't want Turpin 3..

Holmes even gave up his belt to avoid Page.........You rate him.

Do you believe either of those statements?

I'm a huge Holmes fan. Unfortunately it's true. Holmes to me is the 2 HW ATG. That's how high I rate him.

hazharrison wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:He also lost 3 times out of 4 to Saddler, I don't hard it against as much as others because with a modern ref I think he wins 4 out of 4 but you can argue he wasn't even the best featherweight of his era.

Pep rates higher, though. Similar scenario to Bowe-Holyfield.

I'll be honest the 1950's featherweights are a bit of a blind spot for me but there isn't a great deal on Peps record from what I can see, Bartolo, Wright and Famechon being the standouts.

 
Jock Leslie, Humberto Sirra, Paddy DeMarco, Phil Terranova, Joey Archibald, Sal Bartola, Chalky Wright, Allie Stolz, Bobby "Poison" Ivy, Lulu Constantino, Jackie Wilson, Willie Joyce.

Again, maybe just my ignorance, but not sure how those guys greatly exceed a unbeaten career covering 20lbs including wins of Hernandez, Corrales, Castillo (x2), Gatti, Judah, ODLH, Hatton, JMM, Cotto and Alvarez.

The return win over Saddler alone trumps anything on that list.

And the numerous times Saddley slapped him about?

How highly do you rate Kirk Laing?

Rowley wrote:Now, now Haz, Burley could have been accommodated at welter had Ray chosen. Charley was only really fighting at middle due to his lack of opportunities down at welter. The situation is not really the same as Floyd and Manny because at no point were Robbo and Charley the undisputed number one and two in the sport, but there is certainly enough anecdotal evidence to suggest Robinson at worst did not fancy facing Burley or at best viewed him as too much risk for not enough reward.

To be fair, Robinson had his plate full. He was hardly looking for fights. Agree it's nothing like the same scenario, though. Annoying when people throw it up as fact.

hazharrison wrote:

Rowley wrote:Now, now Haz, Burley could have been accommodated at welter had Ray chosen. Charley was only really fighting at middle due to his lack of opportunities down at welter. The situation is not really the same as Floyd and Manny because at no point were Robbo and Charley the undisputed number one and two in the sport, but there is certainly enough anecdotal evidence to suggest Robinson at worst did not fancy facing Burley or at best viewed him as too much risk for not enough reward.

To be fair, Robinson had his plate full. He was hardly looking for fights. Agree it's nothing like the same scenario, though. Annoying when people throw it up as fact.

That's the best excuse I've read for ducking a fighter. And you buy it hook line and sinker also.

hazharrison wrote:

Rowley wrote:Now, now Haz, Burley could have been accommodated at welter had Ray chosen. Charley was only really fighting at middle due to his lack of opportunities down at welter. The situation is not really the same as Floyd and Manny because at no point were Robbo and Charley the undisputed number one and two in the sport, but there is certainly enough anecdotal evidence to suggest Robinson at worst did not fancy facing Burley or at best viewed him as too much risk for not enough reward.

To be fair, Robinson had his plate full. He was hardly looking for fights. Agree it's nothing like the same scenario, though. Annoying when people throw it up as fact.

That's the best excuse I've read for ducking a fighter. And you buy it hook line and sinker also.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Funny thing is Martinez last four fights have been Macklin, Barker, Chavez jr and Murray...

Mayweather's have been Ortiz, Guerrero, Alvarez and Cotto..........Count the titles..

Yet Floyd is criticised for his opponents ad nauseum...........

There isn't a fighter around today who fights the quality Floyd does.......apart from Manny

Ward's opponents are good but he's slagged off for being boring.......

Some guys can't win........

Froch, Mares, Dawson and Ward have all faced better quality. Ortiz? Guerrero?

hazharrison wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:He also lost 3 times out of 4 to Saddler, I don't hard it against as much as others because with a modern ref I think he wins 4 out of 4 but you can argue he wasn't even the best featherweight of his era.

Pep rates higher, though. Similar scenario to Bowe-Holyfield.

I'll be honest the 1950's featherweights are a bit of a blind spot for me but there isn't a great deal on Peps record from what I can see, Bartolo, Wright and Famechon being the standouts.

 
Jock Leslie, Humberto Sirra, Paddy DeMarco, Phil Terranova, Joey Archibald, Sal Bartola, Chalky Wright, Allie Stolz, Bobby "Poison" Ivy, Lulu Constantino, Jackie Wilson, Willie Joyce.

Again, maybe just my ignorance, but not sure how those guys greatly exceed a unbeaten career covering 20lbs including wins of Hernandez, Corrales, Castillo (x2), Gatti, Judah, ODLH, Hatton, JMM, Cotto and Alvarez.

The return win over Saddler alone trumps anything on that list.

Well, 1) My original point was about depth of CV, i.e. lots of very good fights, rather than singular huge highlight wins; and 2) He still had a losing record to Sandy though, didn't he?

Come on Haz.......I applaud your stubbornness........but please.

Guerrero was top 10 P4P. Alvarez was the lineal champion. JMM was and still is P4P top 3.

He's fought and beat 5 at the time p4pers.......

No one since Leonard has done that.........Apart from froch apparently.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:He also lost 3 times out of 4 to Saddler, I don't hard it against as much as others because with a modern ref I think he wins 4 out of 4 but you can argue he wasn't even the best featherweight of his era.

Pep rates higher, though. Similar scenario to Bowe-Holyfield.

I'll be honest the 1950's featherweights are a bit of a blind spot for me but there isn't a great deal on Peps record from what I can see, Bartolo, Wright and Famechon being the standouts.

 
Jock Leslie, Humberto Sirra, Paddy DeMarco, Phil Terranova, Joey Archibald, Sal Bartola, Chalky Wright, Allie Stolz, Bobby "Poison" Ivy, Lulu Constantino, Jackie Wilson, Willie Joyce.

Again, maybe just my ignorance, but not sure how those guys greatly exceed a unbeaten career covering 20lbs including wins of Hernandez, Corrales, Castillo (x2), Gatti, Judah, ODLH, Hatton, JMM, Cotto and Alvarez.

The return win over Saddler alone trumps anything on that list.

Well, 1) My original point was about depth of CV, i.e. lots of very good fights, rather than singular huge highlight wins; and 2) He still had a losing record to Sandy though, didn't he?

Yes, but at the tail-end of a career blighted by his involvement in a plane crash.

I've never disputed Floyd's quality of opposition is consistently good but is it any better than Pacquiao's?

azania wrote:Guerrero was top 10 P4P. Alvarez was the lineal champion. JMM was and still is P4P top 3.

1. Only the Ring, and apparently you and Truss, has Guerrero top10.
2. Fine.
3. He wasn't when Floyd fought him. If he put on the same masterclass now then hat's off to him.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:He's fought and beat 5 at the time p4pers.......

No one since Leonard has done that.........Apart from froch apparently.

I thought those lists were irrelevant?

TopHat24/7 wrote:

azania wrote:Guerrero was top 10 P4P. Alvarez was the lineal champion. JMM was and still is P4P top 3.

1. Only the Ring, and apparently you and Truss, has Guerrero top10.
2. Fine.
3. He wasn't when Floyd fought him.  If he put on the same masterclass now then hat's off to him.

Where was he ranked when Floyd fought him?

azania wrote:Guerrero was top 10 P4P. Alvarez was the lineal champion. JMM was and still is P4P top 3.

What were their welterweight records like?

hazharrison wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:He also lost 3 times out of 4 to Saddler, I don't hard it against as much as others because with a modern ref I think he wins 4 out of 4 but you can argue he wasn't even the best featherweight of his era.

Pep rates higher, though. Similar scenario to Bowe-Holyfield.

I'll be honest the 1950's featherweights are a bit of a blind spot for me but there isn't a great deal on Peps record from what I can see, Bartolo, Wright and Famechon being the standouts.

 
Jock Leslie, Humberto Sirra, Paddy DeMarco, Phil Terranova, Joey Archibald, Sal Bartola, Chalky Wright, Allie Stolz, Bobby "Poison" Ivy, Lulu Constantino, Jackie Wilson, Willie Joyce.

Again, maybe just my ignorance, but not sure how those guys greatly exceed a unbeaten career covering 20lbs including wins of Hernandez, Corrales, Castillo (x2), Gatti, Judah, ODLH, Hatton, JMM, Cotto and Alvarez.

The return win over Saddler alone trumps anything on that list.

Well, 1) My original point was about depth of CV, i.e. lots of very good fights, rather than singular huge highlight wins; and 2) He still had a losing record to Sandy though, didn't he?

Yes, but at the tail-end of a career blighted by his involvement in a plane crash.

I've never disputed Floyd's quality of opposition is consistently good but is it any better than Pacquiao's?

1) The first fight where he got stopped by Sandler wasn't the tail of his career; and 2) Pac is another example of someone I'd say with better highs than Floyd but less consistency and depth.

No but he hasn't been trashed like Manny........

How the heck does anyone with a stright face say Froch has beaten better fighters.........

Marquez is an alltime great for a start........What alltimer has froch beat......

Marquez was top 5 at the time of the fight I'm pretty sure.

azania wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

azania wrote:Guerrero was top 10 P4P. Alvarez was the lineal champion. JMM was and still is P4P top 3.

1. Only the Ring, and apparently you and Truss, has Guerrero top10.
2. Fine.
3. He wasn't when Floyd fought him.  If he put on the same masterclass now then hat's off to him.

Where was he ranked when Floyd fought him?

Not top 3 for certain. JMM might've been in the lower reaches of top10 at best. But even that wouldn't do justice to the reality of the fight.

hazharrison wrote:

azania wrote:Guerrero was top 10 P4P. Alvarez was the lineal champion. JMM was and still is P4P top 3.

What were their welterweight records like?

Irrelevant seeing as alvarez is a jmw.

TopHat24/7 wrote:Not top 3 for certain. JMM might've been in the lower reaches of top10 at best.

Na, top 5.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

azania wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

azania wrote:Guerrero was top 10 P4P. Alvarez was the lineal champion. JMM was and still is P4P top 3.

1. Only the Ring, and apparently you and Truss, has Guerrero top10.
2. Fine.
3. He wasn't when Floyd fought him.  If he put on the same masterclass now then hat's off to him.

Where was he ranked when Floyd fought him?

Not top 3 for certain. JMM might've been in the lower reaches of top10 at best.  But even that wouldn't do justice to the reality of the fight.

Yeah, Floyd was streets ahead of him. Shutout if there ever was one. Won every second of that fight.