A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
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The v2 Forum :: Sport :: Boxing
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A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
First topic message reminder :
Can't see Truss being happy with this:
http://www.thesweetscience.com/news/articles-frontpage/17280-a-look-back-at-mayweather-alvarez-part-one
"Also, as great a fighter as Mayweather is, there’s one flaw on his resume. He has consistently avoided the best available opposition.
A fighter doesn’t have to be bloodied and knocked down and come off the canvas to prove his greatness. A fighter can also prove that he has the heart of a legendary champion by testing himself against the best available competition.
Mayweather has done neither.
Floyd said earlier this month, “I push myself to the limit by fighting the best.”
That has all the sincerity of posturing by a political candidate.
Mayweather has some outstanding victories on his ring record. But his career has been marked by the avoidance of tough opponents in their prime.
There always seems to be someone who Mayweather is ducking. The most notable example was his several-year avoidance of Manny Pacquiao. Bob Arum (Pacquiao’s promoter) might not have wanted the fight. But Manny clearly did. And it appeared as though Floyd didn’t.
Mayweather also steered clear of Paul Williams, Antonio Margarito, and Miguel Cotto in their prime. He waited to fight Cotto until Miguel (like Shane Mosley) was a shell of his former self. Then Floyd made a show of saying that he’d fight Cotto at 154 pounds so Miguel would be at his best. But when Sergio Martinez offered to come down to 154, Floyd said that he’d only fight Martinez at 150 (an impossible weight for Sergio to make).
Thus, Frank Lotierzo writes, “Mayweather has picked his spots in one way or another throughout his career. Floyd got over big time on Juan Manuel Marquez with his weigh-in trickery at the last moment. He fought Oscar De La Hoya and barely won when Oscar was a corpse. Shane Mosley was an empty package when he finally fought him seven years after the fight truly meant anything. As terrific as Mayweather is, he's not the Bible of boxing the way he projects himself as being. He came along when there were some other outstanding fighters at or near his weight. Yet, aside from the late Diego Corrales, he has never met any of them when the fight would have confirmed his greatness. It would be great to write about Mayweather and laud all that he has accomplished as a fighter without bringing up these inconvenient facts. But it can't be done if you're being intellectually honest.”
“Mayweather,” Lotierzo continues, “wouldn't be the face of boxing today if there was an Ali, Leonard, De La Hoya, or Tyson around. But they're long gone. Give him credit for being able to make a safety-first counter-puncher who avoided the only fight fans wanted him to deliver [into] the face of what once was the greatest sport in the world.”"
Can't see Truss being happy with this:
http://www.thesweetscience.com/news/articles-frontpage/17280-a-look-back-at-mayweather-alvarez-part-one
"Also, as great a fighter as Mayweather is, there’s one flaw on his resume. He has consistently avoided the best available opposition.
A fighter doesn’t have to be bloodied and knocked down and come off the canvas to prove his greatness. A fighter can also prove that he has the heart of a legendary champion by testing himself against the best available competition.
Mayweather has done neither.
Floyd said earlier this month, “I push myself to the limit by fighting the best.”
That has all the sincerity of posturing by a political candidate.
Mayweather has some outstanding victories on his ring record. But his career has been marked by the avoidance of tough opponents in their prime.
There always seems to be someone who Mayweather is ducking. The most notable example was his several-year avoidance of Manny Pacquiao. Bob Arum (Pacquiao’s promoter) might not have wanted the fight. But Manny clearly did. And it appeared as though Floyd didn’t.
Mayweather also steered clear of Paul Williams, Antonio Margarito, and Miguel Cotto in their prime. He waited to fight Cotto until Miguel (like Shane Mosley) was a shell of his former self. Then Floyd made a show of saying that he’d fight Cotto at 154 pounds so Miguel would be at his best. But when Sergio Martinez offered to come down to 154, Floyd said that he’d only fight Martinez at 150 (an impossible weight for Sergio to make).
Thus, Frank Lotierzo writes, “Mayweather has picked his spots in one way or another throughout his career. Floyd got over big time on Juan Manuel Marquez with his weigh-in trickery at the last moment. He fought Oscar De La Hoya and barely won when Oscar was a corpse. Shane Mosley was an empty package when he finally fought him seven years after the fight truly meant anything. As terrific as Mayweather is, he's not the Bible of boxing the way he projects himself as being. He came along when there were some other outstanding fighters at or near his weight. Yet, aside from the late Diego Corrales, he has never met any of them when the fight would have confirmed his greatness. It would be great to write about Mayweather and laud all that he has accomplished as a fighter without bringing up these inconvenient facts. But it can't be done if you're being intellectually honest.”
“Mayweather,” Lotierzo continues, “wouldn't be the face of boxing today if there was an Ali, Leonard, De La Hoya, or Tyson around. But they're long gone. Give him credit for being able to make a safety-first counter-puncher who avoided the only fight fans wanted him to deliver [into] the face of what once was the greatest sport in the world.”"
hazharrison- Posts : 7540
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Re: A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
What was Hearns middleweight record when he lost to Hagler Haz ????????????
If Mayweather has beaten castillo, Marquez, cotto, guerrero, Oscar, Hatton and alvarez......
Apart from hearns which defences did Hagler take that were better than these guys between 80 and 87.........
If Mayweather has beaten castillo, Marquez, cotto, guerrero, Oscar, Hatton and alvarez......
Apart from hearns which defences did Hagler take that were better than these guys between 80 and 87.........
TRUSSMAN66- Posts : 40687
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Re: A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
Pep was in a plane crash in '47 (after which he wasn't expected to walk again -- never mind fight). He lost 10 of his 11 career reverses after that -- including the Saddler fights.TopHat24/7 wrote:1) The first fight where he got stopped by Sandler wasn't the tail of his career; and 2) Pac is another example of someone I'd say with better highs than Floyd but less consistency and depth.hazharrison wrote:Yes, but at the tail-end of a career blighted by his involvement in a plane crash.TopHat24/7 wrote:Well, 1) My original point was about depth of CV, i.e. lots of very good fights, rather than singular huge highlight wins; and 2) He still had a losing record to Sandy though, didn't he?hazharrison wrote:The return win over Saddler alone trumps anything on that list.TopHat24/7 wrote:Again, maybe just my ignorance, but not sure how those guys greatly exceed a unbeaten career covering 20lbs including wins of Hernandez, Corrales, Castillo (x2), Gatti, Judah, ODLH, Hatton, JMM, Cotto and Alvarez.hazharrison wrote:Hammersmith harrier wrote:I'll be honest the 1950's featherweights are a bit of a blind spot for me but there isn't a great deal on Peps record from what I can see, Bartolo, Wright and Famechon being the standouts.hazharrison wrote:Pep rates higher, though. Similar scenario to Bowe-Holyfield.Hammersmith harrier wrote:He also lost 3 times out of 4 to Saddler, I don't hard it against as much as others because with a modern ref I think he wins 4 out of 4 but you can argue he wasn't even the best featherweight of his era.
Jock Leslie, Humberto Sirra, Paddy DeMarco, Phil Terranova, Joey Archibald, Sal Bartola, Chalky Wright, Allie Stolz, Bobby "Poison" Ivy, Lulu Constantino, Jackie Wilson, Willie Joyce.
I've never disputed Floyd's quality of opposition is consistently good but is it any better than Pacquiao's?
hazharrison- Posts : 7540
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Re: A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
What was Hearns middleweight record when he fought Hagler has ??????????
TRUSSMAN66- Posts : 40687
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Re: A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
Marquez and Hatton were hopelessly undersized. Oscar and Cotto were past their best and Guerrero just isn't that good.TRUSSMAN66 wrote:What was Hearns middleweight record when he lost to Hagler Haz ????????????
If Mayweather has beaten castillo, Marquez, cotto, guerrero, Oscar, Hatton and alvarez......
Apart from hearns which defences did Hagler take that were better than these guys between 80 and 87.........
Hagler was the undisputed number one at middleweight and faced everyone who challenged him. Hearns was a legendary welterweight and, arguably, the greatest light middleweight of all time (who had the frame to excel at light heavyweight).
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Re: A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
BTW Marquez was #2 P4P March 2009, I fail to believe he lost much considering he didn't fight again before Mayweather.
Scottrf- Posts : 14359
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Re: A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
Hatton went up one weight class, and was probably bigger than Mayweather in the ring. Hopelessly undersized?hazharrison wrote:Marquez and Hatton were hopelessly undersized. Oscar and Cotto were past their best and Guerrero just isn't that good.
A ridiculous standard of nitpicking that doesn't get applied to anything but the current era.
Scottrf- Posts : 14359
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Re: A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
They took Mayweather on though didn't they............They probably would have thought Hamsho and Obelmijas x2.... beneath them when a Mayweather/Spinks fighter was out there....hazharrison wrote:Marquez and Hatton were hopelessly undersized. Oscar and Cotto were past their best and Guerrero just isn't that good.TRUSSMAN66 wrote:What was Hearns middleweight record when he lost to Hagler Haz ????????????
If Mayweather has beaten castillo, Marquez, cotto, guerrero, Oscar, Hatton and alvarez......
Apart from hearns which defences did Hagler take that were better than these guys between 80 and 87.........
you must have Calzaghe above Mayweather too........His longevity was ten years and he beat the same quality........yet didn't draw with Vito,,,,,,
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Re: A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
Hatton's record above 140 lbs was 1-2 (with the win highly controversial against Luis Collazo). He wasn't effective above light welter.Scottrf wrote:Hatton went up one weight class, and was probably bigger than Mayweather in the ring. Hopelessly undersized?hazharrison wrote:Marquez and Hatton were hopelessly undersized. Oscar and Cotto were past their best and Guerrero just isn't that good.
A ridiculous standard of nitpicking that doesn't get applied to anything but the current era.
hazharrison- Posts : 7540
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Re: A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
Mayweather has beaten better men than Calzaghe. So no.TRUSSMAN66 wrote:They took Mayweather on though didn't they............They probably would have thought Hamsho and Obelmijas x2.... beneath them when a Mayweather/Spinks fighter was out there....hazharrison wrote:Marquez and Hatton were hopelessly undersized. Oscar and Cotto were past their best and Guerrero just isn't that good.TRUSSMAN66 wrote:What was Hearns middleweight record when he lost to Hagler Haz ????????????
If Mayweather has beaten castillo, Marquez, cotto, guerrero, Oscar, Hatton and alvarez......
Apart from hearns which defences did Hagler take that were better than these guys between 80 and 87.........
you must have Calzaghe above Mayweather too........His longevity was ten years and he beat the same quality........yet didn't draw with Vito,,,,,,
hazharrison- Posts : 7540
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Re: A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
Hatton was unbeaten when Mayweather fought him.........
Curry had a great record before Honeyghan........so what..........
some times a loss can kill confidence..........Or even a fight in camacho's case..
Look at Hamed...............
Curry had a great record before Honeyghan........so what..........
some times a loss can kill confidence..........Or even a fight in camacho's case..
Look at Hamed...............
Last edited by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 03 Oct 2013, 3:15 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : ..)
TRUSSMAN66- Posts : 40687
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Re: A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
And if Ward fought Garcia at a 160 catchweight but came in a 168 anyway I'd expect him to win a shut-out also.azania wrote:Yeah, Floyd was streets ahead of him. Shutout if there ever was one. Won every second of that fight.TopHat24/7 wrote:Not top 3 for certain. JMM might've been in the lower reaches of top10 at best. But even that wouldn't do justice to the reality of the fight.azania wrote:Where was he ranked when Floyd fought him?TopHat24/7 wrote:1. Only the Ring, and apparently you and Truss, has Guerrero top10.azania wrote:Guerrero was top 10 P4P. Alvarez was the lineal champion. JMM was and still is P4P top 3.
2. Fine.
3. He wasn't when Floyd fought him. If he put on the same masterclass now then hat's off to him.
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Re: A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
How can he be hopelessly undersized against someone that he in all probability outweighed? Of the 2 losses, one was where he was completely shot, the other against the greatest in a generation. Hardly a worthwhile stat. Skill clearly won that fight, not size.hazharrison wrote:Hatton's record above 140 lbs was 1-2 (with the win highly controversial against Luis Collazo). He wasn't effective above light welter.Scottrf wrote:Hatton went up one weight class, and was probably bigger than Mayweather in the ring. Hopelessly undersized?hazharrison wrote:Marquez and Hatton were hopelessly undersized. Oscar and Cotto were past their best and Guerrero just isn't that good.
A ridiculous standard of nitpicking that doesn't get applied to anything but the current era.
Scottrf- Posts : 14359
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Re: A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
Unbeaten also when Floyd fought him........and a 50/50 fight on the old 606.......Scottrf wrote:How can he be hopelessly undersized against someone that he in all probability outweighed? Of the 2 losses, one was where he was completely shot, the other against the greatest in a generation. Hardly a worthwhile stat. Skill clearly won that fight, not size.hazharrison wrote:Hatton's record above 140 lbs was 1-2 (with the win highly controversial against Luis Collazo). He wasn't effective above light welter.Scottrf wrote:Hatton went up one weight class, and was probably bigger than Mayweather in the ring. Hopelessly undersized?hazharrison wrote:Marquez and Hatton were hopelessly undersized. Oscar and Cotto were past their best and Guerrero just isn't that good.
A ridiculous standard of nitpicking that doesn't get applied to anything but the current era.
TRUSSMAN66- Posts : 40687
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Re: A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
Hatton struggled above 140. He'd have made a hopeless welterweight. How do you explain the Collazo performance? He was lucky to escape with that one.TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Hatton was unbeaten when Mayweather fought him.........
Curry had a great record before Honeyghan........so what..........
some times a loss can kill confidence..........Or even a fight in camacho's case..
Look at Hamed...............
hazharrison- Posts : 7540
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Re: A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
This is all speculation Haz dear boy...........
He had a bad night against Collazo.............Holy had a bad night against Cooper......Hagler against Vito........
He had a bad night against Collazo.............Holy had a bad night against Cooper......Hagler against Vito........
TRUSSMAN66- Posts : 40687
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Re: A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
You must really rate Pacquiao's performance against Hatton Truss?TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Unbeaten also when Floyd fought him........and a 50/50 fight on the old 606.......Scottrf wrote:How can he be hopelessly undersized against someone that he in all probability outweighed? Of the 2 losses, one was where he was completely shot, the other against the greatest in a generation. Hardly a worthwhile stat. Skill clearly won that fight, not size.hazharrison wrote:Hatton's record above 140 lbs was 1-2 (with the win highly controversial against Luis Collazo). He wasn't effective above light welter.Scottrf wrote:Hatton went up one weight class, and was probably bigger than Mayweather in the ring. Hopelessly undersized?hazharrison wrote:Marquez and Hatton were hopelessly undersized. Oscar and Cotto were past their best and Guerrero just isn't that good.
A ridiculous standard of nitpicking that doesn't get applied to anything but the current era.
hazharrison- Posts : 7540
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Re: A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
Ricky never looked good against southpaws either if we can base so much on the Collazo fight, so do we give Pacquiao no credit for the win?
What aspects of the Mayweather-Hatton fight do you think weight was a factor in?
What aspects of the Mayweather-Hatton fight do you think weight was a factor in?
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Re: A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
If he was good enough to win after the crash , and be credited for it, then his losses cannot be disregarded. If we're to disregard his Saddler losses due to the effect of the crash then I'll have to write-off his win as a fluke.hazharrison wrote:Pep was in a plane crash in '47 (after which he wasn't expected to walk again -- never mind fight). He lost 10 of his 11 career reverses after that -- including the Saddler fights.TopHat24/7 wrote:1) The first fight where he got stopped by Sandler wasn't the tail of his career; and 2) Pac is another example of someone I'd say with better highs than Floyd but less consistency and depth.hazharrison wrote:Yes, but at the tail-end of a career blighted by his involvement in a plane crash.TopHat24/7 wrote:Well, 1) My original point was about depth of CV, i.e. lots of very good fights, rather than singular huge highlight wins; and 2) He still had a losing record to Sandy though, didn't he?hazharrison wrote:The return win over Saddler alone trumps anything on that list.TopHat24/7 wrote:Again, maybe just my ignorance, but not sure how those guys greatly exceed a unbeaten career covering 20lbs including wins of Hernandez, Corrales, Castillo (x2), Gatti, Judah, ODLH, Hatton, JMM, Cotto and Alvarez.hazharrison wrote:Hammersmith harrier wrote:I'll be honest the 1950's featherweights are a bit of a blind spot for me but there isn't a great deal on Peps record from what I can see, Bartolo, Wright and Famechon being the standouts.hazharrison wrote:Pep rates higher, though. Similar scenario to Bowe-Holyfield.Hammersmith harrier wrote:He also lost 3 times out of 4 to Saddler, I don't hard it against as much as others because with a modern ref I think he wins 4 out of 4 but you can argue he wasn't even the best featherweight of his era.
Jock Leslie, Humberto Sirra, Paddy DeMarco, Phil Terranova, Joey Archibald, Sal Bartola, Chalky Wright, Allie Stolz, Bobby "Poison" Ivy, Lulu Constantino, Jackie Wilson, Willie Joyce.
I've never disputed Floyd's quality of opposition is consistently good but is it any better than Pacquiao's?
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Re: A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
Irrelevant. He wasn't undersized. He was the bigger man on fight night. Even when he fought at 140 he regularly stepped into the ring heavier than Floyd.hazharrison wrote:Hatton's record above 140 lbs was 1-2 (with the win highly controversial against Luis Collazo). He wasn't effective above light welter.Scottrf wrote:Hatton went up one weight class, and was probably bigger than Mayweather in the ring. Hopelessly undersized?hazharrison wrote:Marquez and Hatton were hopelessly undersized. Oscar and Cotto were past their best and Guerrero just isn't that good.
A ridiculous standard of nitpicking that doesn't get applied to anything but the current era.
Was Floyd hopel;essly undersized when he faced everyone about 140 (bar JMM)? Floyd has beaten bigger guys so why do people use the size differential when it comes to his great win against JMM?
azania- Posts : 19471
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Re: A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
It isn't speculation that Hatton wasn't very good at welterweight. It's fact.TRUSSMAN66 wrote:This is all speculation Haz dear boy...........
He had a bad night against Collazo.............Holy had a bad night against Cooper......Hagler against Vito........
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Re: A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
No, it's based on a single fight.hazharrison wrote:It isn't speculation that Hatton wasn't very good at welterweight. It's fact.TRUSSMAN66 wrote:This is all speculation Haz dear boy...........
He had a bad night against Collazo.............Holy had a bad night against Cooper......Hagler against Vito........
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Re: A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
Or a remarkable feat -- depending whether you're looking to apply common sense or score points on a forum?TopHat24/7 wrote:If he was good enough to win after the crash , and be credited for it, then his losses cannot be disregarded. If we're to disregard his Saddler losses due to the effect of the crash then I'll have to write-off his win as a fluke.hazharrison wrote:Pep was in a plane crash in '47 (after which he wasn't expected to walk again -- never mind fight). He lost 10 of his 11 career reverses after that -- including the Saddler fights.TopHat24/7 wrote:1) The first fight where he got stopped by Sandler wasn't the tail of his career; and 2) Pac is another example of someone I'd say with better highs than Floyd but less consistency and depth.hazharrison wrote:Yes, but at the tail-end of a career blighted by his involvement in a plane crash.TopHat24/7 wrote:Well, 1) My original point was about depth of CV, i.e. lots of very good fights, rather than singular huge highlight wins; and 2) He still had a losing record to Sandy though, didn't he?hazharrison wrote:The return win over Saddler alone trumps anything on that list.TopHat24/7 wrote:Again, maybe just my ignorance, but not sure how those guys greatly exceed a unbeaten career covering 20lbs including wins of Hernandez, Corrales, Castillo (x2), Gatti, Judah, ODLH, Hatton, JMM, Cotto and Alvarez.hazharrison wrote:Hammersmith harrier wrote:I'll be honest the 1950's featherweights are a bit of a blind spot for me but there isn't a great deal on Peps record from what I can see, Bartolo, Wright and Famechon being the standouts.hazharrison wrote:Pep rates higher, though. Similar scenario to Bowe-Holyfield.Hammersmith harrier wrote:He also lost 3 times out of 4 to Saddler, I don't hard it against as much as others because with a modern ref I think he wins 4 out of 4 but you can argue he wasn't even the best featherweight of his era.
Jock Leslie, Humberto Sirra, Paddy DeMarco, Phil Terranova, Joey Archibald, Sal Bartola, Chalky Wright, Allie Stolz, Bobby "Poison" Ivy, Lulu Constantino, Jackie Wilson, Willie Joyce.
I've never disputed Floyd's quality of opposition is consistently good but is it any better than Pacquiao's?
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Re: A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
Maybe they use it because it's convenient............Hagler's reign was no better than Calzaghe's............and If being UNDISPUTED matters........azania wrote:Irrelevant. He wasn't undersized. He was the bigger man on fight night. Even when he fought at 140 he regularly stepped into the ring heavier than Floyd.hazharrison wrote:Hatton's record above 140 lbs was 1-2 (with the win highly controversial against Luis Collazo). He wasn't effective above light welter.Scottrf wrote:Hatton went up one weight class, and was probably bigger than Mayweather in the ring. Hopelessly undersized?hazharrison wrote:Marquez and Hatton were hopelessly undersized. Oscar and Cotto were past their best and Guerrero just isn't that good.
A ridiculous standard of nitpicking that doesn't get applied to anything but the current era.
Was Floyd hopel;essly undersized when he faced everyone about 140 (bar JMM)? Floyd has beaten bigger guys so why do people use the size differential when it comes to his great win against JMM?
Then stick Douglas in a list above Tommy Hearns......
Haz wanted to know their welterweight records before Floyd and yet hasn't told me what Hearns middleweight record was before Hagler........
Last edited by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 03 Oct 2013, 3:24 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : ..)
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Re: A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Hagler's reign was no better than Calzaghe's....azania wrote:Irrelevant. He wasn't undersized. He was the bigger man on fight night. Even when he fought at 140 he regularly stepped into the ring heavier than Floyd.hazharrison wrote:Hatton's record above 140 lbs was 1-2 (with the win highly controversial against Luis Collazo). He wasn't effective above light welter.Scottrf wrote:Hatton went up one weight class, and was probably bigger than Mayweather in the ring. Hopelessly undersized?hazharrison wrote:Marquez and Hatton were hopelessly undersized. Oscar and Cotto were past their best and Guerrero just isn't that good.
A ridiculous standard of nitpicking that doesn't get applied to anything but the current era.
Was Floyd hopel;essly undersized when he faced everyone about 140 (bar JMM)? Floyd has beaten bigger guys so why do people use the size differential when it comes to his great win against JMM?
Beauty
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Re: A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
Why was it better Haz..........Hopkins vs Hearns..............Kesler vs Mugabi............
Who did he beat better than Eubank..........Sibson ??
Who did he beat better than Eubank..........Sibson ??
Last edited by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 03 Oct 2013, 3:26 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : ..)
TRUSSMAN66- Posts : 40687
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Re: A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
The verbal gymnastics being employed by haz is something I should take on board.
Great stuff haz. I wonder when the joke that is TopHat will start the flip flop stuff because you don't halk use it a lot.
Great stuff haz. I wonder when the joke that is TopHat will start the flip flop stuff because you don't halk use it a lot.
azania- Posts : 19471
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Re: A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
Lacey, Eubank, Kessler and Hopkins................
I'll swap a dipping his feet at middle for the first time Hearns for Hoppo.........
Come on ...............
I'll swap a dipping his feet at middle for the first time Hearns for Hoppo.........
Come on ...............
TRUSSMAN66- Posts : 40687
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Re: A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
If I was trying to score points do you think the first thing I would've done is plead ignorance?hazharrison wrote:Or a remarkable feat -- depending whether you're looking to apply common sense or score points on a forum?TopHat24/7 wrote:If he was good enough to win after the crash , and be credited for it, then his losses cannot be disregarded. If we're to disregard his Saddler losses due to the effect of the crash then I'll have to write-off his win as a fluke.hazharrison wrote:Pep was in a plane crash in '47 (after which he wasn't expected to walk again -- never mind fight). He lost 10 of his 11 career reverses after that -- including the Saddler fights.TopHat24/7 wrote:1) The first fight where he got stopped by Sandler wasn't the tail of his career; and 2) Pac is another example of someone I'd say with better highs than Floyd but less consistency and depth.hazharrison wrote:Yes, but at the tail-end of a career blighted by his involvement in a plane crash.TopHat24/7 wrote:Well, 1) My original point was about depth of CV, i.e. lots of very good fights, rather than singular huge highlight wins; and 2) He still had a losing record to Sandy though, didn't he?hazharrison wrote:The return win over Saddler alone trumps anything on that list.TopHat24/7 wrote:Again, maybe just my ignorance, but not sure how those guys greatly exceed a unbeaten career covering 20lbs including wins of Hernandez, Corrales, Castillo (x2), Gatti, Judah, ODLH, Hatton, JMM, Cotto and Alvarez.hazharrison wrote:Hammersmith harrier wrote:I'll be honest the 1950's featherweights are a bit of a blind spot for me but there isn't a great deal on Peps record from what I can see, Bartolo, Wright and Famechon being the standouts.hazharrison wrote:Pep rates higher, though. Similar scenario to Bowe-Holyfield.Hammersmith harrier wrote:He also lost 3 times out of 4 to Saddler, I don't hard it against as much as others because with a modern ref I think he wins 4 out of 4 but you can argue he wasn't even the best featherweight of his era.
Jock Leslie, Humberto Sirra, Paddy DeMarco, Phil Terranova, Joey Archibald, Sal Bartola, Chalky Wright, Allie Stolz, Bobby "Poison" Ivy, Lulu Constantino, Jackie Wilson, Willie Joyce.
I've never disputed Floyd's quality of opposition is consistently good but is it any better than Pacquiao's?
TopHat24/7- Posts : 17008
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Age : 40
Location : London
Re: A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
Caveman Lee, Hamsho x2, Obelmijas x2, Roldan, Vito, Mugabi, Hearns and Scypion.......
Wow.............
Wow.............
TRUSSMAN66- Posts : 40687
Join date : 2011-02-02
Re: A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
Let's have a look:TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Why was it better Haz..........Hopkins vs Hearns..............Kesler vs Mugabi............
Who did he beat better than Eubank..........Sibson ??
Calzaghe
Lacy
Bika
Manfredo
Kessler
Hagler
Minter
Obelmejias
Antuofermo
Hamsho
Lee
Obelmejias
Sibson
Scypion
Duran
Roldan
Hamsho
Hearns
Mugabi
Hmmm. It's a toughie.
hazharrison- Posts : 7540
Join date : 2011-03-26
Re: A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
Bika...Manfredo ??????????????????????????????????? Behave yourself
Hopkins, Mitchell, Kessler, Lacey Eubank............More than matches anything bar Hearns on that list.........
Duran ?????????? Was a shocking display as you well know.......Hearns trashed him in two next fight......
chuck in two defeats and a draw with the mighty Vito.........I rest my case..
...................
Hopkins, Mitchell, Kessler, Lacey Eubank............More than matches anything bar Hearns on that list.........
Duran ?????????? Was a shocking display as you well know.......Hearns trashed him in two next fight......
chuck in two defeats and a draw with the mighty Vito.........I rest my case..
...................
Last edited by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 03 Oct 2013, 3:35 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : ..)
TRUSSMAN66- Posts : 40687
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Re: A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
Edit: Nevermind.
Last edited by Scottrf on Thu 03 Oct 2013, 3:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
Scottrf- Posts : 14359
Join date : 2011-01-26
Re: A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
Title reigns Truss. That's what we were taling about. Keep up -- it's me that's having ten different conversations. I feel like Michael Caine in Zulu.TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Bika...Manfredo ??????????????????????????????????? Behave yourself
Hopkins, Mitchell, Kessler, Lacey Eubank............More than matches anything bar Hearns on that list.........
Duran ?????????? Was a shocking display as you well know.......hearns trashed him in two next fight......
...................
Duran fought out of his skin that night -- he looked half cut against Hearns.
hazharrison- Posts : 7540
Join date : 2011-03-26
Re: A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
Patronise when you're losing huh...........I'm talking about careers...........
Oh Hearns got lucky...........Thank god Duran never wanted a rematch..
Oh Hearns got lucky...........Thank god Duran never wanted a rematch..
TRUSSMAN66- Posts : 40687
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Re: A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
No. Calzaghe fought Hopkins at light heavyweight. Last time I looked that precludes him from Calzaghe's super middleweight reign.Scottrf wrote:Puts Scypion in Hagler's list, leaves Hopkins out of Calzaghe's. Agenda?
KAPOW! (getting bored now).
hazharrison- Posts : 7540
Join date : 2011-03-26
Re: A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
Yeah, acknowledged that. Hardly interesting to compare though, seeing as most of his title defences were of the WBO title.hazharrison wrote:No. Calzaghe fought Hopkins at light heavyweight. Last time I looked that precludes him from Calzaghe's super middleweight reign.Scottrf wrote:Puts Scypion in Hagler's list, leaves Hopkins out of Calzaghe's. Agenda?
KAPOW! (getting bored now).
Scottrf- Posts : 14359
Join date : 2011-01-26
Re: A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
But you said "reigns".TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Patronise when you're losing huh...........I'm talking about careers...........
Oh Hearns got lucky...........Thank god Duran never wanted a rematch..
Duran was hopelessly erratic post Leonard (when he scored one of the greatest wins in boxing history). Hearns was hardly lucky -- kicked the living daylights out of him.
hazharrison- Posts : 7540
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Re: A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
hazharrison wrote:Let's have a look:TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Why was it better Haz..........Hopkins vs Hearns..............Kesler vs Mugabi............
Who did he beat better than Eubank..........Sibson ??
Calzaghe
Lacy
Bika
Manfredo
Kessler
Hagler
Minter
Obelmejias
Antuofermo
Hamsho
Lee
Obelmejias
Sibson
Scypion
Duran
Roldan
Hamsho
Hearns
Mugabi
Hmmm. It's a toughie.
Vito, Caveman Lee, Fully Obel, Willy Scipion, Hamsho, Duran (at MW), Roldan were worse than rubbish.
Sibbo was average, so was Mugabi. It leaves just Hearns who was hopelessly undersized.
azania- Posts : 19471
Join date : 2011-01-29
Age : 112
Re: A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
He didn't become top man until the Lacy fight (remember he was an underdog heading into that one).Scottrf wrote:Yeah, acknowledged that. Hardly interesting to compare though, seeing as most of his title defences were of the WBO title.hazharrison wrote:No. Calzaghe fought Hopkins at light heavyweight. Last time I looked that precludes him from Calzaghe's super middleweight reign.Scottrf wrote:Puts Scypion in Hagler's list, leaves Hopkins out of Calzaghe's. Agenda?
KAPOW! (getting bored now).
hazharrison- Posts : 7540
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Re: A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
I'm not interested in reigns.......I'm interested in opposition..........Stop smokescreening......
Duran fought out of his skin that night perhaps..............25 pounds above his weight class and Hagler fights stiffs so he can avoid Spinks.........
and you moan about Mayweather................Who has left his comfort zone repeatedly.....
Oscar could have fought stiffs at lightweight for 10 years......no doubt that would make him top 10 material in your book........not in mine though.
Duran fought out of his skin that night perhaps..............25 pounds above his weight class and Hagler fights stiffs so he can avoid Spinks.........
and you moan about Mayweather................Who has left his comfort zone repeatedly.....
Oscar could have fought stiffs at lightweight for 10 years......no doubt that would make him top 10 material in your book........not in mine though.
TRUSSMAN66- Posts : 40687
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Re: A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
Yet won titles at 160 and 175. BOOM!!azania wrote:hazharrison wrote:Let's have a look:TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Why was it better Haz..........Hopkins vs Hearns..............Kesler vs Mugabi............
Who did he beat better than Eubank..........Sibson ??
Calzaghe
Lacy
Bika
Manfredo
Kessler
Hagler
Minter
Obelmejias
Antuofermo
Hamsho
Lee
Obelmejias
Sibson
Scypion
Duran
Roldan
Hamsho
Hearns
Mugabi
Hmmm. It's a toughie.
It leaves just Hearns who was hopelessly undersized.
hazharrison- Posts : 7540
Join date : 2011-03-26
Re: A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
Waht was his record at middle when he fought Hagler haz ??
Hatton's and Marquez records at welter mattered................
Hatton's and Marquez records at welter mattered................
Last edited by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 03 Oct 2013, 3:44 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : ..)
TRUSSMAN66- Posts : 40687
Join date : 2011-02-02
Re: A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
I'm only addressing what you asked. Don't blame me if I can't read your mind!TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I'm not interested in reigns.......I'm interested in opposition..........Stop smokescreening......
Duran fought out of his skin that night perhaps..............25 pounds above his weight class and Hagler fights stiffs so he can avoid Spinks.........
and you moan about Mayweather................Who has left his comfort zone repeatedly.....
Oscar could have fought stiffs at lightweight for 10 years......no doubt that would make him top 10 material in your book........not in mine though.
I agree -- remarkable performance from Duran. Fought with a broken hand also.
And we've been through the Spinks thing. There's no evidence to back your assertion. THWACK!!
hazharrison- Posts : 7540
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Re: A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
So if JMM beats Bradley he wouldn't have been undersized against Mayweather?hazharrison wrote:Yet won titles at 160 and 175. BOOM!!
Scottrf- Posts : 14359
Join date : 2011-01-26
Re: A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
Later on. On that night, just as Hatton was apparently undersized against Floyd even though he was bigger and heavier, Hearns was the smaller guiy. Hopelessly undersized. He had never won a fight at MW either.hazharrison wrote:Yet won titles at 160 and 175. BOOM!!azania wrote:hazharrison wrote:Let's have a look:TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Why was it better Haz..........Hopkins vs Hearns..............Kesler vs Mugabi............
Who did he beat better than Eubank..........Sibson ??
Calzaghe
Lacy
Bika
Manfredo
Kessler
Hagler
Minter
Obelmejias
Antuofermo
Hamsho
Lee
Obelmejias
Sibson
Scypion
Duran
Roldan
Hamsho
Hearns
Mugabi
Hmmm. It's a toughie.
It leaves just Hearns who was hopelessly undersized.
azania- Posts : 19471
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Age : 112
Re: A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Waht was his record at middle when he fought Hagler haz ??
Hatton's and Marquez records at welter mattered................
TRUSSMAN66- Posts : 40687
Join date : 2011-02-02
Re: A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
I'd argue it isn't the same principle. Hearns had the frame to win titles at 175 and then 160 so, while he wasn't as good above 154 lbs, he was still good enough to fight at world class.TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Waht was his record at middle when he fought Hagler haz ??
Hatton's and Marquez records at welter mattered................
Hatton and Marquez didn't do anything at the higher weights (until Marquez hired Heredia and turned into Lou Ferrigno).
hazharrison- Posts : 7540
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Re: A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:TRUSSMAN66 wrote:What was his record at middle when he fought Hagler haz ??
Hatton's and Marquez records at welter mattered................
TRUSSMAN66- Posts : 40687
Join date : 2011-02-02
Re: A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
I'd suggest that Marquez is a different physical specimen now than what he was then (clearly). Make of that what you will (makes me puke to be honest).Scottrf wrote:So if JMM beats Bradley he wouldn't have been undersized against Mayweather?hazharrison wrote:Yet won titles at 160 and 175. BOOM!!
hazharrison- Posts : 7540
Join date : 2011-03-26
Re: A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser
Pathetic...........Hearns beats a half cut Duran..........No evidence to suggest he was half cut...hazharrison wrote:I'm only addressing what you asked. Don't blame me if I can't read your mind!TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I'm not interested in reigns.......I'm interested in opposition..........Stop smokescreening......
Duran fought out of his skin that night perhaps..............25 pounds above his weight class and Hagler fights stiffs so he can avoid Spinks.........
and you moan about Mayweather................Who has left his comfort zone repeatedly.....
Oscar could have fought stiffs at lightweight for 10 years......no doubt that would make him top 10 material in your book........not in mine though.
I agree -- remarkable performance from Duran. Fought with a broken hand also.
And we've been through the Spinks thing. There's no evidence to back your assertion. THWACK!!
But there is no evidence Hagler fought stiff after stiff instead of wanting a fight with spinks..
p**s poor stuff.
TRUSSMAN66- Posts : 40687
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