Lux said the RFU had promised him it would not support a new tournament

First topic message reminder :

Jean Pierre Lux says the RFU will not support a new tournament.

"I went to a meeting last week where the chief executive of the RFU Ian Ritchie and the president Bill Beaumont clearly said they had told their clubs there would be no new competition. All the federations hope that ERC continues to run the [European] competitions."


http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/sep/17/heineken-cup-rugby-union-world-cup

Its been a constant demand from the PRL almost from the start. No compromise offered anywhere. They knew it would be unacceptable and the PRL had no wish to negotiate meaninfully anyway. Anyway it looks like the PRLs bluff has been well and truly called and the only european cup will be the union run one with or without the PRL

standulstermen well actually it's been the ERC dragging their heels for over a year and being in league with Sky. They should take quite a lot of responsibility for this mess. They could have sat down with the PRL representatives in private to sort out a compromise.

They've only acted when it's too late.

the guardian are part of the media with their own agenda - selling newspapers.

You shouldn't believe everything you read. Lux might well believe what he says but it doesn't mean that the RFU feel that way.

The RFU have to be very careful, especially with the 2015 world cup meant to be in England they need their clubs on board with the programme.

The BT contract was signed 12 months ago was it not? As such hey can talk about wanting to compromise but he thing that precludes agreement was signed over a year ago....

Nowhere did I say that lux was right. I merely said I wouldn't blame the guardian for reporting a direct quote.

TJ wrote:Its been a constant demand from the PRL almost from the start.  No compromise offered anywhere.  They knew it would be unacceptable and the PRL had no wish to negotiate meaninfully anyway. Anyway it looks like the PRLs bluff has been well and truly called and the only european cup will be the union run one with or without the PRL

Or the French...

The french will come on board in some form. I am fairly sure of that.

TJ

The PRL have righteous grievances with the current HC. You talk about not negiotating meaningfully - why are the ERC only willing to negiotate only after a year. The English and French clubs gave the ERC ample opportunity to come to the negiotation table before now.

I know you want the English clubs to be isolated.

You and your anti English brother in arms Maestegmafia have been hoping for that prospect the entire time. Yet again you believe that what you say is gospel - we'll see.

The French have never really taken the HC seriously anyway, they only care about their own competition, so they will probably come on board, but they will still treat the away games like two bits of nothing.

TJ wrote:The french will come on board in some form.  I am fairly sure of that.  

Then you really do have an extremely deluded view of whats happening.

beshocked, I have not seen any anti-English on here, far from it, anti-PRL for sure, but lets not get mixed up in what people are trying to debate, you feel strongly for the PRL's argument, others on here, like me do not trust it, we all aknowledge that there needs to be change, and we all have our opinions, but lets not get dragged down into a nationality argument, nobody is saying anything bad about the English, we are all saying that the PRL should not be doing what they are doing without the unions, although I must commend their efforts in the money they could potentialy get from BT, but it was not within their rights to make any agreements with the HC with BT, so here we are.

Toohey wrote:

TJ wrote:The french will come on board in some form.  I am fairly sure of that.  

Then you really do have an extremely deluded view of whats happening.

Really? read what the FFR have been saying. The french may not come on board but I would be surprised if they don't. the PRL are clearly isolated and desparate.

beshocked wrote:TJ

The PRL have righteous grievances with the current HC. You talk about not negiotating meaningfully - why are the ERC only willing to negiotate only after a year. The English and French clubs gave the ERC ample opportunity to come to the negiotation table before now.

I know you want the English clubs to be isolated.

You and your anti English brother in arms Maestegmafia have been hoping for that prospect the entire time. Yet again you believe that what you say is gospel - we'll see.

Nothing antio english about me. I am english by birth!

I know the PREL are isolated. Its obvious from what has been said publicly. the PRL have not negotiated with good faith at all - its been their way or nothing from the start - they made demands they knew would be unnacceptable in order to give them the excuse to go for a breakaway which appears to have blown up in their faces.

Name me one olive branch / compromise offer from the PRL?

Lorddowlais well obviously I completely disagree. Maestegmafia is well known as anti-English. He celebrated when Ashton got bottled.

The fact that he wound up two posters in a way that even more than myself - LondonTiger and Hammerofthunor just says it all.

I find it irritating when the likes of TJ and Maestegmafia act as if they know eveything that is going on in this whole issue. They don't. It's just a load of speculation.

A club competition should not be the plaything of an incompetent body like the ERC in my opinion who are in the pocket of Sky.

The English clubs did not agree rights in regards to the HC with BT. They agreed rights for a new European competition.

I don't trust the ERC or Unions - they are just as interested in themselves if not more so.

The English clubs are not isolated. They have support of the French clubs. The RFU's current stance is unknown. Stop spouting the rubbish about isolation.

TJ wrote:The french will come on board in some form.  I am fairly sure of that.  

I very much doubt they will.

Most likely outcome for the French is that the FFR agree to an expanded Top Flight Competition and extra money for the clubs, while LNR agree to some form of FQP "quotas"

Of course this leaves English Clubs isolated - but then I suspect that is what most posters want any way. Certainly based on the discussions I have worked my way through, it seems as if most people would rather see a European competition without the English. We shoudl be careful what we wish for.

beshocked wrote:

The English clubs did not agree rights in regards to the HC with BT. They agreed rights for a new European competition.

I

Which doesn't exist and they didn't have the right to sell. Now no one else will join them they look pretty silly

Now go on - name me one compromise position offered by the PRL

Much of what is going on is very obvious to anyone whos mind is open.

TJ wrote:

Toohey wrote:

TJ wrote:The french will come on board in some form.  I am fairly sure of that.  

Then you really do have an extremely deluded view of whats happening.

Really?  read what the FFR have been saying.  The french may not come on board but I would be surprised if they don't. the PRL are clearly isolated and desparate.

Maybe thats your problem, you've been reading what the FFR are saying and not the LNR. The FFR might be able to block the LNR from starting a new tournament but there is no way they can force them back into the ERC. The option for them will be new compeition or no competition. Did you read that Toulon and Clermont generated meritocracy payments of €2.7m from ERC for reaching the final last year but were given just €200k each? Why would they want to be involved in a tournament like that?

beshocked wrote:The English clubs are not isolated. They have support of the French clubs. The RFU's current stance is unknown. Stop spouting the rubbish about isolation.

Its not rubbish. Its unpalatable to you but its the obvious truth. the PRL have been desperately attempting to get others onside but no one will join them. the FFR have slapped the LNR down and made it clear they will not be joining any new non union sanctioned comp.

They didn't have the right to sell? Well actually they did because it's a new competition. You say no one else will join them - the French have.

Why do you keep forgetting the French?

I don't know a compromise position offered by the PRL because I am not part of the PRL!

Perhaps they have. Perhaps they haven't. It's just speculation again. You do not know - I know you believe that you have a vast knowledge of the negotiations but you don't.

You do not know what has been put on the table.

TJ wrote:

beshocked wrote:The English clubs are not isolated. They have support of the French clubs. The RFU's current stance is unknown. Stop spouting the rubbish about isolation.

Its not rubbish.  Its unpalatable to you but its the obvious truth.  the PRL have been desperately attempting to get others onside but no one will join them.  the FFR have slapped the LNR down and made it clear they will not be joining any new non union sanctioned comp.

Of course it's rubbish. You say the English clubs are isolated yet they have the support of the French clubs. Something that in the past you thought the French clubs would never do. The FFR currently disagree with the LNR but that stance could change.

You say it as if stances of the FFR or the RFU are set in stone. They are not.

I could also say it's unpalatable to you that the English clubs might actually succeed in getting much need changes. You will never acknowledge that it could happen.

The french have not joined them and indeed the french union has categorically denied the right to do so. They did not have the right to sell any european competition without the agreement of the other unions.

So no compromise from the PRL side - given how much they have shouted I am sure they would have shouted about one if they had been prepared to compromise at all. But they haven't. Its perfectly clear

Now why should 4 unions loose 40% of their places and 2 unions lose none? the 4 unions with the least representation lose almost half, the two with the most none?

If you cannot understand how isolated the PRL are you are not following what has gone on. Pontless discussing with you further. .

TJ the French still support the English clubs. The French union might change their stance. They can sell rights to an European competition when they want the competition to be run by clubs not unions.

you do not know exactly what the PRL offer is on the table.

Perhaps the PRL would make a compromise on qualification - e.g. 6/6/8. They might even agree upon revenue changes but the biggest struggle is in regards to control.

Why should a club competition be the playground of unions?

The 6 nations is for unions.

TJ you are right it is pointless discussing with you - you have the ego the size of a planet -  you believe everything that you say even when you're wrong.

Perhaps the English clubs will be isolated in the end but as of yet we don't know if they will be. Stop trying to be like mystic meg.

Why suould an international competition be run by clubs? remeber the unions are the entrants into the european cup.

the PRL have made everythign they want public. why have they not made any compromises public? reeber the original PRL proposal was for 8/8/8

the french do not support the PRL some club owners do - they are divided and the FFR is against the PRL proposals

Beshocked - I have my opinion. you have yours. No need to be offensive. Nothing I have said is factually wrong. You however are fixed on a proposal that will never be acceptable and I still want to know what compromises the PRL have made and what the logic is that 4 unions go from 10 entrants between them to 6 while 2 unions have no reduction?

There is no logical defensible basis to this position at all. None. try to find one and I will demolish it

beshocked wrote:TJ the French still support the English clubs. The French union might change their stance. They can sell rights to an European competition when they want the competition to be run by clubs not unions.

you do not know exactly what the PRL offer is on the table.

Perhaps the PRL would make a compromise on qualification - e.g. 6/6/8. They might even agree upon revenue changes but the biggest struggle is in regards to control.

Why should a club competition be the playground of unions?

The 6 nations is for unions.

No the Unions are the guardians of the game,they oversee every aspect of the game in the country and have the overall good of the game in their respective countries as their top priority.This idea of the clubs organising their own competitions is ridiculous.Just look at how that model has ruined soccer,now you need a billionaire to takeover a soccer club before they have a chance to win anything and rugby will turn out the same if the clubs get their way.

International competition? We are not talking about the likes of Toulon,Saracens,Castres,Saints,Leicester running the 6 nations!

Scotland does not take part in the HC. Wales does not take part in the HC. England does not take part in the HC.

It is clubs from these countries.

ERC - Driving European Club Rugby Competition - this is what is on the HC website so don't feed me pointless drivel about the HC not being a club competition.

We are talking about an European club competition involving clubs being run by clubs.

You'll have to ask the PRL yourself.

The French clubs are not divided - they support the English clubs completely.

TJ on the contrary I don't think you have said anything factually correct. Most of your comments are based on rumours,hearsay and an awful lot of bluster.

What is my proposal in your opinion?

I have always said 6,6,8.

asoreleftshoulder how naive to call unions guardians of the game. The Scottish rugby union were happy to destroy club rugby in Scotland. The WRU have effectively done the same in Welsh rugby. Well at least they make lots of money to fill their coffers even though Welsh club rugby is effectively a laughing stock. It's no surprise the average Welsh person is a fervent Welsh international rugby team supporter but couldn't given a damn about the regions.

I am not against keeping club's power in check but then again I don't want the unions running everything. I don't want club rugby becoming 2nd fiddle to international rugby like it is in cricket.

Unions are just as greedy if not more so. The RFU for example were happy to screw over their loyal debenture holders in the 2015 RWC so they can make even more money.

Squeeze as much money from the international cash cow as possible.......

TJ wrote:Nothing I have said is factually wrong.  

I would argue that a lot of what you have said is assumption and conjecture. Like pretty much everone's argument on this

TJ wrote:You however are fixed on a proposal that will never be acceptable 

Acceptable to whom? Pretty sure the head of the SRU was quoted as accepting that going forward having two automatic entrants may not be right

TJ wrote: and I still want to know what compromises the PRL have made and what the logic is that 4 unions go from 10 entrants between them to 6 while 2 unions have no reduction?

PRL/LNR seem to have made no concessions and I doubt they had any interest in making a concession unless they got extra cash - and I am pretty sure money is what this is all about. But please don't talk about the bloody awful one we offered that sold smaller countries and clubs down the river.

TJ wrote:There is no logical defensible basis to this position at all.  None.  try to find one and I will demolish it

I will not try and defend the proposal put forward initially by PRL. It is horrid. I will defend however the concept of making participation in the elite competition more meritocratic - something players across all countries seem to agree with. I feel it would be advantageous to all concerned - especially if money is shared equally no matter which tier of competition you are in. Then we have a competition where teams are at the right level for their ability, no-one gains financially and we actually move some money to developing nations whose teams are in a lower tier competition.

6/6/8 might be acceptable. 5/5/8 plus 2winners would be better

6 rabo teams is the proposal that would never be acceptable.  some reduction and qualification would be as agreed and mooted by numerous Rabo unions representatives i wouylod prefer the reduction in places to be shared

Of course its assumption and conjecture as everyone posting is pretty much.  thats my point.  An opinion is not wrong.  Its an opinion that yo might or might not share

Anyone arguing that new allocation is going to work isn't thinking about the long term of club european rugby. The allocations have to be able to change without all this nonsense happening again.

Variable allocations must be used to counter this problem and based on a coefficient(league ranking based on european performance) will be the only way for the longevity of a european cup!

we should also take this opportunity to also give the lesser leagues coefficients with a long term view of allowing them to get into the ERC when they are good enough with no more need for future nonsense negotiations and blank union representatives

TJ wrote:Of course its assumption and conjecture as everyone posting is pretty much.  thats my point.  An opinion is not wrong.  Its an opinion that yo might or might not share

I agree, and please do not think I am accusing you of this, but there are too many posts where supposition, conjecture and gossip is being passed off as fact and then adopted by others.

There is a real lack of any desire to listen to anyone with a different point of view - so instead we get people shouted down. Beshocked has done that to you. And, here now I am "accusing you, you have done that to him.

We are all in the end attaching far too much weight to public utterances, often by people with verbal diarrhoea. I hope that the conversations behind closed door are more useful than the blustering we see in public from far too many. I suspect they are not though. too many people, with too much to lose and positions that are too entrenched.

Yet again I pity the Scots and Italians who seem pawns in the whole thing, and just desperate to get whatever crumbs are thrown their way.

This is not supposition or conjecture this is what Jean Pierre Lux said.

"I went to a meeting last week where the chief executive of the RFU Ian Ritchie and the president Bill Beaumont clearly said they had told their clubs there would be no new competition. All the federations hope that ERC continues to run the [European] competitions."


http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/sep/17/heineken-cup-rugby-union-world-cup

I don't think that anyone doubts Lux might have said that, it's just the veracity of his statement given some of the peculiarities of his career and that he's effectively fighting for the future of it.

The PRL has clearly stated they would go legal if the rfu oppose  it. What lux has said is just ramblings

By the way I don't believe this will happen just that by all accounts this was the only way the english and french could discuss the nonsense of the pro 12 having 10 teams and the financial split which also seems moronic..

BUt I will admit- this issue seems to have brought out the true colours in a lot of fans/posters. So from that POV i would love the PRL and french leagues to just tell them where to go and just set this up

The big achilles heal of a breakaway is the France-English only competitiion will not be a terribly attractive one to the viewing puiblic, sponsors.

It could take on the importance of the LV Cup

TJ you talk so much £$%^ hence why I can't take anything you say seriously. You talk about conjecture yet make statements like the English clubs are isolated as if they are fact.

Vietgwentrevisted I completely agree with you hence why I find maestegmafia and TJ in particular irritating. They seem to believe they know more than anyone else when they are equally in the dark.

Maestegmafia seems to think he knows what the RFU are going to do! He is taking far too much interest in one comment.

I have listened to TJ - he repeatedly bangs on about the English clubs being isolated etc. When there's little proof of that yet.

Both want to see the English clubs isolated - that is their hope. Only perhaps Ashton getting bottled again would give Maestegmafia more pleasure.

Personally I want an European club competition which involves the Italian and Scottish clubs as well as the English,Irish,Welsh and French but not the HC. I don't want isolation for anyone but concessions must be made by the Pro12 teams.

TJ cannot understand why the Pro12 teams must make concessions - I will explain yet again - it's because the English and French clubs in the HC generate the most revenue but get the least rewards proportionally. The English and French clubs also generally perform better than the Pro12 sides in the HC except of course Munster and Leinster. Also most of the Pro12 gets auto qualification.

I can understand TJ's point of view - he wants to keep the status quo. Understandable as so far Scotland have had an incredibly nice deal for them.

markb wrote:I don't think that anyone doubts Lux might have said that, it's just the veracity of his statement given some of the peculiarities of his career and that he's effectively fighting for the future of it.

The veracity of the statement is not out of character for JP Lux. Obviously he has no sympathy for the RFUs relationship with the PRL, but at the ERC table it appears not many do, though this is mainly because the RFU seem to have no control over them.

But the Pro12 teams are prepared to make consessions

From 24/24/52 money to 30/30/40
From 6/6/10+2 teams to 6/6/8

What is being demanded by the English is

33/33/33 and 6/6/6+2

Meet the Pro12 half way and this can be resolved

Meet the PRL and its resolved- End of story!

why the heck should the pro 12 receive more money, when the money coming in is due to the french and english fan base!

Its about time England stopped being this charity that everyone else demands we are

mystiroakey wrote:Meet the PRL and its resolved- End of story!

Basically you are completely right. If the PRL and LNR attend the ERC meeting on the 23rd especially with the attitude that concession on all fronts is the way forward, then this will all be resolved and we can all get on looking forward to the future.

VietGwentRevisited wrote:

TJ wrote:The french will come on board in some form.  I am fairly sure of that.  

I very much doubt they will.

Most likely outcome for the French is that the FFR agree to an expanded Top Flight Competition and extra money for the clubs, while LNR agree to some form of FQP "quotas"

Of course this leaves English Clubs isolated - but then I suspect that is what most posters want any way. Certainly based on the discussions I have worked my way through, it seems as if most people would rather see a European competition without the English. We shoudl be careful what we wish for.

VGR, i don't think that's the case at all. I think most posters would now accept that the way forward is neither the current Heino, and most certainly not the RCC (ridonkulous name), but everyone that is a true supporter of rugby would want a competition in which the best clubs from each country (including England) are represented

haven't the prl and LNR being trying to hold talks for the last few years over this and no one from the pro 12 would discuss it!

Do you not understand this is their own doing!

"but everyone that is a true supporter of rugby would want a competition in which the best clubs from each country (including England) are represented"


sadly that isn't the case

beshocked wrote:TJ  you talk so much £$%^ hence why I can't take anything you say seriously. You talk about conjecture yet make statements like the English clubs are isolated as if they are fact.

Vietgwentrevisted I completely agree with you hence why I find maestegmafia and TJ in particular irritating. They seem to believe they know more than anyone else when they are equally in the dark.

Maestegmafia seems to think he knows what the RFU are going to do! He is taking far too much interest in one comment.

I have listened to TJ - he repeatedly bangs on about the English clubs being isolated etc. When there's little proof of that yet.

Both want to see the English clubs isolated - that is their hope. Only perhaps Ashton getting bottled again would give Maestegmafia more pleasure.

Personally I want an European club competition which involves the Italian and Scottish clubs as well as the English,Irish,Welsh and French but not the HC. I don't want isolation for anyone but concessions must be made by the Pro12 teams.

TJ cannot understand why the Pro12 teams must make concessions - I will explain yet again - it's because the English and French clubs in the HC generate the most revenue but get the least rewards proportionally. The English and French clubs also generally perform better than the Pro12 sides in the HC except of course Munster and Leinster. Also most of the Pro12 gets auto qualification.

I can understand TJ's point of view - he wants to keep the status quo. Understandable as so far Scotland have had an incredibly nice deal for them.

beshocked, wanting to see English clubs isolated so that a settlement can be reached (which is a view, perhaps not yours) is not unreasonable, but that is not the same as wanting English clubs excluded from a pan-European tournament. Your second statement is inflammatory - pls desist

mystiroakey wrote:"but everyone that is a true supporter of rugby would want a competition in which the best clubs from each country (including England) are represented"


sadly that isn't the case

You'll need to back that up pls, strokey?

No one knows what the money is contingent on mysti because no one has seen the deal. If ( as rumoured) the RCC money from BT is predicated on having 4 tier one nations involved then each of any potential 4 nations is as significant as any other.

If you think the same money will be there for and Anglo-French comp when people already accuse the french of a degree of apathy towards the HEC then I'm afraid that's a tad far fetched. Consider the different attendences last season for Sarries QF and SF and tell me what nations fans bring more to the HEC. I not saying the Irish are better but when you consider you get 26k at thomond, 18k at RDS and 14k + at ravenhill. Given that we travel better than most it's too simplistic to say the English and the French are the sole reason anyone invests.

As regards the PRL going to court well if they take the IRB to court they will soon find themselves not playing rugby union and Probyns apocalyptic view draws a step nearer. We are a fair bit away from that though and I wouldn't be as certain as lux that the rfu will back him. It's a hard one to call for them. Not an enviable position at all

As regards talks. The PRL claim to have been trying to do this within erc for the past year but they signed the BT contract over a year ago. Given that is a major reason why they won't negotiate within erc is said contract where they really serious about negotiations? I just wish neither the erc or PRL had negotiated a contract because then we could sort this mess out and let the two broadcasters fight it out

mystiroakey wrote:Meet the PRL and its resolved- End of story!

Do you mean 'cave into the PRL's demands?' - er, no, in a word

why?

haven't you read the comments that many just want the prl isolated, as they have been isolated from talks  in the past. They take a stand(the only thing they can do!!) and everyone else is getting hurt. by it and feel dictated to!!)

England give way to much. You do realise that NZ are the most selfish sporting organisation on the planet earth and England are possibly the least. If we want to become the best maybe its time to bulldoze these little countries as they do!


(by the way i am not suggesting we do deep down- but the way people are reacting to this it does make me wonder)