Ireland's November Series and Beyond...

First topic message reminder :

Right boys, I want you give realistic guess of how Ireland will do in the November tests. I want you to separate your hearts from your heads. How do you predict Ireland will do and how will this set them up for the Six nations based on your poll prediction for the Autumn tests.

Do you believe in Schmidt? Do you believe he is the catalyst for consistent success or will we yet again disappoint by firing hot and cold like recent championships have dictated. Is there cause for quite confidence or should we be holding are cards close to our chest.

Feel free to throw out your wildest aspirations on the table or to throw caution to the wind.

The rest is up to you....


Sat 9th Ireland vs Samoa - Autumn
Sat 16th Ireland vs Australia - Autumn
Sun 24th Ireland vs New Zealand

marty2086 wrote:

Sin é wrote:I wonder how long before JJ passes them all by?

A very good goalkicker - great kick against Glasgow.

Jackson was ahead of JJ at U20 level

Madigan wasn't though - mind you he was 35 at the time I suppose.

SecretFly wrote:Okay...let's do a turn around on it.  Who would do better?  

Jackson with the current Leinster outfit (plus coach) or Madigan with the current Ulster contingent (plus Anscombe)?

Don't take it too seriously but I reckon I'd go for........................... nah, I'll keep it to myself.

"it's Matt O'Connor's conservative new gameplan's fault! HOUSE!!!"


How strange that contextualisation never occurred to you last year, when Madigan was getting all manner of plaudits with a team with BOD, Nacewa, Sexton and Schmidt. Then, his good performances were all his own doing, and entirely devoid of the context of being in the best team in Europe.

Maybe the idea did occur to you... and, then as now, you kept it to yourself. I applaud your consistency.

marty2086 wrote:

Sin é wrote:I wonder how long before JJ passes them all by?

A very good goalkicker - great kick against Glasgow.

Jackson was ahead of JJ at U20 level

Wasn't JJ taking the crunch kicks though? (that very difficult kick against France in France to win the GS was particularly memorable in the 6Ns).

JJ is about 7/8 months younger than Jackson which counts for a lot at that age. JJ didn't play in the first game in the Aviva like Jackson & Marshall did.

rodders wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Sin é wrote:I wonder how long before JJ passes them all by?

A very good goalkicker - great kick against Glasgow.

Jackson was ahead of JJ at U20 level

Madigan wasn't though - mind you he was 35 at the time I suppose.

He did have a few years head start on the others there rodders

But Jackson and Hanrahan are the same age, Jackson was ahead of Hanrahan in selection terms though going by Hanrahans showing at the 2012 JWC it must have been a close call

Theres a big gulf between there and Test level and it'll hopefully be a nice headache ahead of having to choose from the 4 somewhere down the line, should we throw Keatley into the mix too?

Sin é wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Sin é wrote:I wonder how long before JJ passes them all by?

A very good goalkicker - great kick against Glasgow.

Jackson was ahead of JJ at U20 level

Wasn't JJ taking the crunch kicks though? (that very difficult kick against France in France to win the GS was particularly memorable in the 6Ns).

JJ is about 7/8 months younger than Jackson which counts for a lot at that age. JJ didn't play in the first game in the Aviva like Jackson & Marshall did.

6 months in wikipedia time, Jackson was captain and first choice at 10 Im pretty sure against France Hanrahan replaced Jackson

Don Alfonso wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Okay...let's do a turn around on it.  Who would do better?  

Jackson with the current Leinster outfit (plus coach) or Madigan with the current Ulster contingent (plus Anscombe)?

Don't take it too seriously but I reckon I'd go for........................... nah, I'll keep it to myself.

"it's Matt O'Connor's conservative new gameplan's fault! HOUSE!!!"


How strange that contextualisation never occurred to you last year, when Madigan was getting all manner of plaudits with a team with BOD, Nacewa, Sexton and Schmidt. Then, his good performances were all his own doing, and entirely devoid of the context of being in the best team in Europe.

Maybe the idea did occur to you... and, then as now, you kept it to yourself. I applaud your consistency.

Don, Don...Don.... the operative part of my spiel was "Don't take this too seriously".  

But to answer your point.  You won't ever dig up a past and printed idea from me that Leinster never benefitted from having Nacewa, Sexton, Schmidt and the other old geezer O'Driscoll onboard.  I'm sometimes annoying and irritating... but I'm not dumb

But onwards we go and you still didn't answer the question.

I'm not being serious myself. Just can't resist a wee stir.

And you should know it's terribly poor form to insist on someone answering a question you refuse to answer yourself.

But since I love the sound of my own voice (metaphorically), I will rank the combinations for you

In descending order...

Ulster + Jackson
Ulster + Madigan
Leinster + Jackson
Leinster + Madigan


...

Munster + whoever. Is it still ROG?

Don Alfonso wrote:I'm not being serious myself. Just can't resist a wee stir.

And you should know it's terribly poor form to insist on someone answering a question you refuse to answer yourself.

But since I love the sound of my own voice (metaphorically), I will rank the combinations for you

In descending order...

Ulster + Jackson
Ulster + Madigan
Leinster + Jackson
Leinster + Madigan


...

Munster + whoever. Is it still ROG?

But Don, I didn't want to offend anyone So that makes me kind-hearted and gentle-minded.

But in any case, you agree with me thankfully!!! If you dispense with your first choice as that's a natural Provincial affiliation - your second answer is your actual answer to my query. Congratulations, you have the privilege of agreeing with me Don

marty2086 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Sin é wrote:I wonder how long before JJ passes them all by?

A very good goalkicker - great kick against Glasgow.

Jackson was ahead of JJ at U20 level

Wasn't JJ taking the crunch kicks though? (that very difficult kick against France in France to win the GS was particularly memorable in the 6Ns).

JJ is about 7/8 months younger than Jackson which counts for a lot at that age. JJ didn't play in the first game in the Aviva like Jackson & Marshall did.

6 months in wikipedia time, Jackson was captain and first choice at 10 Im pretty sure against France Hanrahan replaced Jackson

7 months to be exact.

Jackson was replaced by Cathal Marsh (& Luke McGrath by Kieran Marmion*). JJ played the 80 minutes in the centre, but he took the winning penalty at the death for Ireland to win 12-13.

*Just shows! Conor Murray was finding it difficult to get a start in the U20s as well. He was behind Matthew Healy.

SecretFly wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:I'm not being serious myself. Just can't resist a wee stir.

And you should know it's terribly poor form to insist on someone answering a question you refuse to answer yourself.

But since I love the sound of my own voice (metaphorically), I will rank the combinations for you

In descending order...

Ulster + Jackson
Ulster + Madigan
Leinster + Jackson
Leinster + Madigan


...

Munster + whoever. Is it still ROG?

But Don, I didn't want to offend anyone  So that makes me kind-hearted and gentle-minded.

But in any case, you agree with me thankfully!!!  If you dispense with your first choice as that's a natural Provincial affiliation - your second answer is your actual answer to my query.  Congratulations, you have the privilege of agreeing with me Don

Ahhh... Superfly. You could never offend us. No matter what you've written, no matter how riled we would otherwise get, if someone explains "that's SpunkyFly's opinion, anyway", we all nod solemnly and look at each other sadly.

"Poor bugger," we say. "Poor, poor bugger."

SpunkyFly?? That is just weird. Is that like a Spanish fly or something?

I have survived many a windscreen at 100MPH - so yeah, I get headaches now and again and PTS flasbacks, but overall, my opinions are good'uns. I find I mostly agree with them anyway.

Can't say furrier than that, as we say in our adorable Northern accents.

JJH top of the Rhino golden boot leader board. Goal kicking was his main weakness last year so fair play to him. http://www.rabodirectpro12.com/statzone/rhino_golden_boot.php

JJ for Sexton understudy then! The debate is now closed.

Simon Hick column: Joe Schmidt can launch Irish rugby towards new heights

The new Ireland coach can forge a new identity for Ireland by making us world leaders in attack

These are anxious times in Irish rugby, but exciting times too. Joe Schmidt, a smart man with a steely resolve, is now in charge of our national team. There is a sense of a fresh dawn among the provinces too.
We have two brand new coaches in Matt O’Connor and Pat Lam, and two who are only in the job a year in Mark Anscombe and Rob Penney. There is a great opportunity for the national team, under Schmidt, to play with a distinct identity, with a flourish and an ambition.
Declan Kidney’s era delivered a Grand Slam, but by the end it felt like a regression. No one could explain with any conviction what our style of play was for those five years. Too often we played not to lose, rather than to go out and win. When Eddie O’Sullivan’s team were at their peak, there was real creativity, but the four provinces were playing four completely different styles.

As cliched and repetitive a notion as it became, the truth was Leinster produced almost all of the back-line in that era and Munster produced the rugged forwards, with Connacht and Ulster occasionally chipping in. There will always be different interpretations on a theme, but at the moment our national coach and all four provincial coaches at least aspire to play progressive rugby, with skills at the core of everything.
Ireland is the only major country that doesn’t have its own rugby identity. We are also the only major country not to have made a World Cup semi-final. Under Joe Schmidt we have a real shot at being perceived as the world leaders in attack play, and the provinces are currently producing players who will suit that style.

http://www.thescore.ie/simon-hick-joe-schmidt-1152881-Oct2013/

SecretFly wrote:JJ for Sexton understudy then!  The debate is now closed.

JJ starts and Ian Keatley understudy with ROG coaching. The dream team!  

Well hand on heart I would not swap Jackson for Madigan.

It is debateable who is the better player and Madigan is 4 years older.

As for JJ Jackson is leaving him behind for the simple reason Jackson is playing week in week out and now calls the shots regarding Ulster's attacking play.

JJ is, at least, a year behind in development.
He will stagnate until Munster have the balls to pick him in preference to Keatley or Downey - neither of whom is international material.

Samoa team looking something like:

15 Kearney
14 Kearney
13 McFadden
12 D'arcy
11 ?
10 Sexton
9 Murray
8 Coughlan
7 SOB
6 O'Mahoney
5 Touhy
4 McCarthy
3 Archer
2 Sherry
1 ?

You sure it'll be Sexton, rodders? Irish camp are already concerned about his game time levels this season... and with two bigger sides to face............ and Samoa being Samoa?
I think it might be........................ tah dah!!!! - Jackson - with Sexton benching and maybe not even coming on.

They're saving Jacko for the ABs fly .....

Archer against Samoa?? God help us.

Archer has been doing very well this year and is well worth the call up. Pay more attention lf4life.

As for the team v Samoa the suggestion from Alan Quinlan is that he will play his strongest possible team (except for certain injured players) given he will be trying to get his game plan in place and will want to use the three games to get the first fifteen up to speed. The only question mark being Sexton.

geoff999rugby wrote:Well hand on heart I would not swap Jackson for Madigan.

It is debateable who is the better player and Madigan is 4 years older.

As for JJ Jackson is leaving him behind for the simple reason Jackson is playing week in week out and now calls the shots regarding Ulster's attacking play.

JJ is, at least, a year behind in development.
He will stagnate until Munster have the balls to pick him in preference to Keatley or Downey - neither of whom is international material.

JJ is only gone 21 - he is doing fine in his all-round development. You must remember that Munster doesn't have Ruan Pienaar to hold his hand as Conor Murray was only being developed.

Jackson is only 21 as well and has a number of Internationals and HC games under his belt.

You clearly didn't watch the HC games this year Jackson is calling the attacking shots not Pienaer.
That is the change since last year.

JJ needs game time to develop - he is getting nowhere near enough

ME-109 wrote:Archer has been doing very well this year and is well worth the call up. Pay more attention lf4life.

As for the team v Samoa the suggestion from Alan Quinlan is that he will play his strongest possible team (except for certain injured players) given he will be trying to get his game plan in place and will want to use the three games to get the first fifteen up to speed. The only question mark being Sexton.

The Munster scrum really struggled last week against Glasgow and Grant (who hasn't been in good form this season) was really getting the better of Archer.

This Samoan scrum is one of the best around now. They can have either Taulafo or Mulipola at LH and Census at TH. Interesting that Samoa are one of the few (if not only) nation with genuine dept at TH. If the Samoans are dominating the scrum there is no way we will win this game.

Its got to be Moore or hopefully a fit Deccie Fitz.

This first game up will be a real acid test of how good or bad we are.

I personally think this is a pretty weak looking Irish squad compared to previous seasons. We could get a real battering.

It says a lot about the state we are in when the two best players in the country by far are the south Africa back up scrum half and a kiwi reject utility back...ok O'Brien is up there too but have ignored him as he doesn't support my point...

rodders wrote:a kiwi reject utility back......

To whom do you refer? -

I'm afraid he is openly insulting the son of BOD and latest great white hope to replace the Lord BOD

Noose awaits poor Rodders before the next Ulster game.  Sure, it'll be something to get the crowd going though.

I'm more optimistic then most. I think Schmidt will make a big difference by getting the team to play better rugby. I think we'll see Ireland playing smart rugby at a high pace. Whether the players have the skill to do that remains to be seen but look at the Leinster side Schmidt had and add in Bowe, L Marshall, Murray, POC, POM etc and you have a potentially excellent team. Next year then we'll see some talented players added to the squad which should help increase the skill levels and help play better Schmidtball.


Ireland will adopt to the opposition too. The Samoans will have weaknesses to exploit and Schmidt will spot them. Australia have weaknesses which I'm sure they'll look to exploit too.

I see who Rodders means now - not rejected though walked away as he was about to burst on the scene

rodders wrote:This first game up will be a real acid test of how good or bad we are.

I personally think this is a pretty weak looking Irish squad compared to previous seasons. We could get a real battering.

It says a lot about the state we are in when the two best players in the country by far are the south Africa back up scrum half and a kiwi reject utility back...ok O'Brien is up there too but have ignored him as he doesn't support my point...

Please stop being so negative Rodders. We have a much stronger squad now than we did when the Irish rugby renaissance began in 2000 at the Stade de France with the 25 - 27 win over France. Our forwards in particular are a good bit stronger and we have better depth in the backs albeit possibly no super stars like BOD was then.

What we need is a coach who can get us back on track. Lets see how the AIs go.

Piennar and Payne might be the top performing players for Ulster at the moment but Irish internationals dont play as many games as those guys so thats to be expected.

profitius wrote:I'm more optimistic then most. I think Schmidt will make a big difference by getting the team to play better rugby. I think we'll see Ireland playing smart rugby at a high pace. Whether the players have the skill to do that remains to be seen but look at the Leinster side Schmidt had and add in Bowe, L Marshall, Murray, POC, POM etc and you have a potentially excellent team. Next year then we'll see some talented players added to the squad which should help increase the skill levels and help play better Schmidtball.


Ireland will adopt to the opposition too. The Samoans will have weaknesses to exploit and Schmidt will spot them. Australia have weaknesses which I'm sure they'll look to exploit too.

That all sounds good, Profitius, and I'm sure we're all together in hoping that's what transpires into the future - especially that allusion to "smart rugby at a high pace" and the point about "Ireland will adapt to the opposition".  Those two aspects especially are what Irish rugby has been missing in essence and we hope Schmidt intends to give it back to us.

But are these AI games (against the opposition that's going to hit us) just a little early?  Well, we'll see.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Archer has been doing very well this year and is well worth the call up. Pay more attention lf4life.

As for the team v Samoa the suggestion from Alan Quinlan is that he will play his strongest possible team (except for certain injured players) given he will be trying to get his game plan in place and will want to use the three games to get the first fifteen up to speed. The only question mark being Sexton.

The Munster scrum really struggled last week against Glasgow and Grant (who hasn't been in good form this season) was really getting the better of Archer.

This Samoan scrum is one of the best around now. They can have either Taulafo or Mulipola at LH and Census at TH. Interesting that Samoa are one of the few (if not only) nation with genuine dept at TH. If the Samoans are dominating the scrum there is no way we will win this game.

Its got to be Moore or hopefully a fit Deccie Fitz.

I am not going to split hairs but we won more penalties due to Archer last week than lost. Look at the game., Glasgow were trying it on for ages getting the shove on early. When the ref got them to stop Archer was very effective. I wouldn't worry about him either way. But I am not sure I would put him ahead of D Fitz.

SecretFly wrote:

profitius wrote:I'm more optimistic then most. I think Schmidt will make a big difference by getting the team to play better rugby. I think we'll see Ireland playing smart rugby at a high pace. Whether the players have the skill to do that remains to be seen but look at the Leinster side Schmidt had and add in Bowe, L Marshall, Murray, POC, POM etc and you have a potentially excellent team. Next year then we'll see some talented players added to the squad which should help increase the skill levels and help play better Schmidtball.


Ireland will adopt to the opposition too. The Samoans will have weaknesses to exploit and Schmidt will spot them. Australia have weaknesses which I'm sure they'll look to exploit too.

That all sounds good, Profitius, and I'm sure we're all together in hoping that's what transpires into the future - especially that allusion to "smart rugby at a high pace" and the point about "Ireland will adapt to the opposition".  Those two aspects especially are what Irish rugby has been missing in essence and we hope Schmidt intends to give it back to us.

But are these AI games (against the opposition that's going to hit us) just a little early?  Well, we'll see.

Thats probably why he picked 17 Leinster players I'd say. He wants to hit the ground running and gradually introduce others into the squad.

GunsGerms wrote:Please stop being so negative Rodders. We have a much stronger squad now than we did when the Irish rugby renaissance began in 2000 at the Stade de France with the 25 - 27 win over France. Our forwards in particular are a good bit stronger and we have better depth in the backs albeit possibly no super stars like BOD was then.

Ah here now Guns, the fact that you have to go back 14 seasons to find a weaker panel than this shower says it all!

Kiwi Utility back - ah come on guys....ok clue...its not Isaac Boss ....

GunsGerms wrote:

rodders wrote:This first game up will be a real acid test of how good or bad we are.

I personally think this is a pretty weak looking Irish squad compared to previous seasons. We could get a real battering.

It says a lot about the state we are in when the two best players in the country by far are the south Africa back up scrum half and a kiwi reject utility back...ok O'Brien is up there too but have ignored him as he doesn't support my point...

Please stop being so negative Rodders. We have a much stronger squad now than we did when the Irish rugby renaissance began in 2000 at the Stade de France with the 25 - 27 win over France. Our forwards in particular are a good bit stronger and we have better depth in the backs albeit possibly no super stars like BOD was then.

What we need is a coach who can get us back on track. Lets see how the AIs go.

Piennar and Payne might be the top performing players for Ulster at the moment but Irish internationals dont play as many games as those guys so thats to be expected.

Schmidt has picked a squad that makes us look weaker than we are. Stick in Fitzgerald, Olding, Marmion and/or Marshall, Gilroy (is he injured?), Cave, and we're looking a bit stronger.

I personally think a team of our best fit and in form players is, with Schmidt at the helm, is better than England or Wales, but Schmidt may not pick our strongest squad and of course we have injuries.

rodders may very well be right and it makes me scared but I think if Schmidt picks the right players and gets out pack, especially our back row, humming we will be too good for Samoa and will give the Aussies a close game.

Healy, Best, Fitzpatrick, POC, Tuohy, SOB, Henry, POM, Murray, Sexton, Earls, Marshall, BOD, Bowe, Olding

This team looks a good bit stronger than the Leinster orientated one he may very well go for with Ross, Toner, Heaslip, D'Arcy, Kearney.

Better than England and Wales - wow big shout ....I don't agree but hey ho.

OK talking point on the new scrum rules - the talk seems to be that the second rows are taking more of the strain and the requirement is for more powerful locks. Muller also mentioned it is more energy sapping.

What impact will this have - my feeling is that Touhy, McCarthy - maybe DOC, decent scrummagers, will benefit more than the likes of Ryan or Toner.

I think the new emphasis on straight put-ins is having the major effect on scrums - and on that sense that they are now more energy sapping (Muller's point). The dangers have obviously grown now of being pushed off the ball... as you're much more vulnerable to a shunt when trying to collect it.

I witnessed one Irish side last weekend have really serious problems with that one.

Improved techniques into the next weeks and months might take some of that extra stress off the second rows as all sides adapt better to the rules

SecretFly wrote:You sure it'll be Sexton, rodders? Irish camp are already concerned about his game time levels this season... and with two bigger sides to face............ and Samoa being Samoa?
I think it might be........................ tah dah!!!!  - Jackson - with Sexton benching and maybe not even coming on.

Got a wee hunch about that.

http://www.irishrugby.ie/matchdaytv?play=media&id=16733

Paddy Jackson, Luke Marshall, Brian O'Driscoll, Tommy Bowe the backline in this video. Ian Madigan also pictured at 10. I think Sexton will not be involved, Paddy will start and Madigan will bench.

No proof or anything just a wee hunch.

Notch wrote:

SecretFly wrote:You sure it'll be Sexton, rodders? Irish camp are already concerned about his game time levels this season... and with two bigger sides to face............ and Samoa being Samoa?
I think it might be........................ tah dah!!!!  - Jackson - with Sexton benching and maybe not even coming on.

Got a wee hunch about that.

http://www.irishrugby.ie/matchdaytv?play=media&id=16733

Paddy Jackson, Luke Marshall, Brian O'Driscoll, Tommy Bowe the backline in this video. Ian Madigan also pictured at 10. I think Sexton will not be involved, Paddy will start and Madigan will bench.

No proof or anything just a wee hunch.

If true... it's welcome to the new world!
As now we have to use some of our International games to actually rest up a player who has been run hard by his club. That'll take getting used to and might present major problems into the future as and when more Irish players inevitably answer the call of French/English money.
Coming into Irish camp for a rest might become the norm!

geoff999rugby wrote:Jackson is only 21 as well and has a number of Internationals and HC games under his belt.

You clearly didn't watch the HC games this year Jackson is calling the attacking shots not Pieneaar.
That is the change since last year.

JJ needs game time to develop - he is getting nowhere near enough

Pienaar was parachuted in to take the kicks against Castres. That doesn't help. Pienaar is a crutch he has at Ulster that he doesn't have with Ireland.

JJ has no such crutch to lean on and he will end up the better player for it. Penney is managing JJ exactly the same he managed Carter, (and a few other Canterbury 10s/12s) - which was giving them time to grow into the position without overwhelming them with responsibility. That Carter fellow turned out alright.

rodders wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Please stop being so negative Rodders. We have a much stronger squad now than we did when the Irish rugby renaissance began in 2000 at the Stade de France with the 25 - 27 win over France. Our forwards in particular are a good bit stronger and we have better depth in the backs albeit possibly no super stars like BOD was then.

Ah here now Guns, the fact that you have to go back 14 seasons to find a weaker panel than this shower says it all!

Kiwi Utility back - ah come on guys....ok clue...its not Isaac Boss ....

You just have to go back to the 2007 world cup when ROG's backup was only Paddy Wallace (who is mainly a 12). Ireland had a good first team then but needed to rely on them remaining injury free.

Sexton has played 10 games in 9 weeks or something like that. He'll be flogged and flogged and I can't see it not affecting his game.

Sin é wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Jackson is only 21 as well and has a number of Internationals and HC games under his belt.

You clearly didn't watch the HC games this year Jackson is calling the attacking shots not Pieneaar.
That is the change since last year.

JJ needs game time to develop - he is getting nowhere near enough

Pienaar was parachuted in to take the kicks against Castres. That doesn't help. Pienaar is a crutch he has at Ulster that he doesn't have with Ireland.

JJ has no such crutch to lean on and he will end up the better player for it. Penney is managing JJ exactly the same he managed Carter, (and a few other Canterbury 10s/12s) - which was giving them time to grow into the position without overwhelming them with responsibility. That Carter fellow turned out alright.

Weirdly, having Pienaar take the kicks sounds exactly like the bolded part to me. But I'm sure I'm wrong. After all, you wouldn't be suggesting we judge these two players by different criteria.

profitius wrote:

rodders wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Please stop being so negative Rodders. We have a much stronger squad now than we did when the Irish rugby renaissance began in 2000 at the Stade de France with the 25 - 27 win over France. Our forwards in particular are a good bit stronger and we have better depth in the backs albeit possibly no super stars like BOD was then.

Ah here now Guns, the fact that you have to go back 14 seasons to find a weaker panel than this shower says it all!

Kiwi Utility back - ah come on guys....ok clue...its not Isaac Boss ....

You just have to go back to the 2007 world cup when ROG's backup was only Paddy Wallace (who is mainly a 12). Ireland had a good first team then but needed to rely on them remaining injury free.  

Accepted. But our depth then was deceptively good in most positions bar prop and fly half under EOS.

Quinlan, Leo Cullen, Malcolm O'Kelly, Jennings, Gleeson, Neil Best, Roger Wilson, Bob Casey, Trevor Brennan, Rory Best, Geordan Murphy, Tommy Bowe, Stephen Ferris, Maggs - a lot of these guys couldn't make the regular 15 and in their primes or coming through... serious players some of these guys...

No disrespect to guys like Toner, Coughlan, Touhy, Dave Kearney,Henshaw etc., all good players, but they wouldn't have got near the squad back then.

Don Alfonso wrote:

Sin é wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Jackson is only 21 as well and has a number of Internationals and HC games under his belt.

You clearly didn't watch the HC games this year Jackson is calling the attacking shots not Pieneaar.
That is the change since last year.

JJ needs game time to develop - he is getting nowhere near enough

Pienaar was parachuted in to take the kicks against Castres. That doesn't help. Pienaar is a crutch he has at Ulster that he doesn't have with Ireland.

JJ has no such crutch to lean on and he will end up the better player for it. Penney is managing JJ exactly the same he managed Carter, (and a few other Canterbury 10s/12s) - which was giving them time to grow into the position without overwhelming them with responsibility. That Carter fellow turned out alright.

Weirdly, having Pienaar take the kicks sounds exactly like the bolded part to me. But I'm sure I'm wrong. After all, you wouldn't be suggesting we judge these two players by different criteria.

The way JJ is being managed, his all round game is being developed gradually by giving him more difficult games and full responsibility to manage (like Glasgow away last weekend - no Keatley on the bench) and he responded well to the added responsibility and performed well (super placekick in a tight match as well).

PJ has got every opportunity possible and lots of game time, but his goalkicking (confidence thing?) is very inconsistent and I don't think it helps that Pienaar takes over when it looks likely that every point is going to be needed.

Ulster need to sort this or else he will turn into another Brock James or Nick Evans - can't do it when the pressure was on.

What better thing to bring him on than competition? He'll develop consistency and I don't think sharing the kicking duties hurts him very much. Battling with Pienaar for the role will both develop his resilience, which has already been helped by the pressures he's came through, and give him a focus to improve his kicking. I would wager that he has both taken more kicks at goal in general than Hanrahan this year and taken more pressure kicks.

There's no right or wrong way to bring through players. The reason Jackson has been given so much responsibility at a young age is because successive coaches see that his personality is such that if he has a bad game it won't destroy him. Like Ronan O'Gara said in his Irish Examiner column he has 'resilience written all over him'.

Notch wrote:What better thing to bring him on than competition? He'll develop consistency and I don't think sharing the kicking duties hurts him very much. Battling with Pienaar for the role will both develop his resilience, which has already been helped by the pressures he's came through, and give him a focus to improve his kicking. I would wager that he has both taken more kicks at goal in general than Hanrahan this year and taken more pressure kicks.

Notch your right, JJ has a better percentage but Jackson has taken a lot more

Can't dismiss character as being crucial in development, Hanrahan may need to be managed PJ seems to be one that relishes a challenge and isn't afraid to fail as he seems to come back stronger

Notch wrote:What better thing to bring him on than competition? He'll develop consistency and I don't think sharing the kicking duties hurts him very much. Battling with Pienaar for the role will both develop his resilience, which has already been helped by the pressures he's came through, and give him a focus to improve his kicking. I would wager that he has both taken more kicks at goal in general than Hanrahan this year and taken more pressure kicks.

In the interests of fairness and because I was just curious:

Kicking.  As we all agree, a kicker kicks what is earned by his team and kicking isn't influenced by the opposition as they have to all stand back and let the kicker kick.  So number of kicks is not really indicative of kicking ability and neither is the opposition relevant to kicking.

Pro12

Paddy has 1 Try  3 conversions and 17 penalties (20 successful kicks) from 465 minutes on the field
JJ has 2 Tries 7 Conversions and 10 penalties (17 successful kicks) from 244 minutes on the field

Paddy has indeed taken more kicks  - 20 successful kicks to JJ's 18 attempts.  I don't know (can't find) how many attempts Paddy has made.

Kicking and hitting the target top spot though (Pro12 Golden Boot) goes to JJ so far in Pro12 competition.  17 hits from 18 attempts.