Ireland's November Series and Beyond...

First topic message reminder :

Right boys, I want you give realistic guess of how Ireland will do in the November tests. I want you to separate your hearts from your heads. How do you predict Ireland will do and how will this set them up for the Six nations based on your poll prediction for the Autumn tests.

Do you believe in Schmidt? Do you believe he is the catalyst for consistent success or will we yet again disappoint by firing hot and cold like recent championships have dictated. Is there cause for quite confidence or should we be holding are cards close to our chest.

Feel free to throw out your wildest aspirations on the table or to throw caution to the wind.

The rest is up to you....


Sat 9th Ireland vs Samoa - Autumn
Sat 16th Ireland vs Australia - Autumn
Sun 24th Ireland vs New Zealand

Murray, for me personally, is much too hot and cold.
Zebo....................... well,.................. I don't want to offend people.

Earls though is actually quite a positive with me...in the sense that I think he'd have excelled under Schmidt.

If BOD is out I'd start Henshaw as he is the only one playing 13 on a week in week out basis.

I'd start BOD because he is such a class act.

Madigan makes more sense for the 22 shirt but if Sexton was out I'd still put in Jackson to start

The question ad to how many Munster players would start at Ulster and Leinster is an easy answer....they wouldn't want to ( unless they are rejects like redden).

still the question as to the captain lads...hmmm

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:If BOD is out I'd start Henshaw as he is the only one playing 13 on a week in week out basis.

I'd start BOD because he is such a class act.

Madigan makes more sense for the 22 shirt but if Sexton was out I'd still put in Jackson to start

While I understand the argument about Madigan offerimg a different style of play from the bench, and think there's some validity to it, if he plays like he did against Connacht or Munster, we'll lose. Regardless of what gameplan is put into operation.

Don Alfonso wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:If BOD is out I'd start Henshaw as he is the only one playing 13 on a week in week out basis.

I'd start BOD because he is such a class act.

Madigan makes more sense for the 22 shirt but if Sexton was out I'd still put in Jackson to start

While I understand the argument about Madigan offerimg a different style of play from the bench, and think there's some validity to it, if he plays like he did against Connacht or Munster, we'll lose. Regardless of what gameplan is put into operation.

True, but if Jackson kicks like he did against Cardiff we will lose. So its a tough position for Schmidt. Lucky we have Sexton who was very good against SF.

rodders wrote:Jackson is certainly no2 to Sexton for me now. His all round game and decision making is so good and his flat passing game really makes his Ulster teammates look good - Payne, Olding Marshall in particular. Currently his tactical kicking would be something ROG would be proud of.

Pete's point about Madigan is good though in terms of being an impact player. Jacksons game is actually quite similar to Sextons whereas Madigan offers something a bit different.

Sexton looks in good form with Racing which is great news.

OK question - BOD and POC -  should they be selected? Great players they have been but neither have really done anything of note this season due to injury. Certainly I wouldn't select either against Samoa therefore putting them in against either of the big two is a massive risk.More and more this season is looking like a bridge too far for these two legends and neither may get the glorious swansong they deserve...

Rodders,

I am with you on this one, they have been fantasic servants for Ireland and their provinces. There comes a time when your reputation is not enough and people should realise that and not put individuals first. The team comes first not a swan song for some great players who have passed their best. They should realise that themselves and make the decision easier for managers.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:If BOD is out I'd start Henshaw as he is the only one playing 13 on a week in week out basis.

I'd start BOD because he is such a class act.

Madigan makes more sense for the 22 shirt but if Sexton was out I'd still put in Jackson to start

While I understand the argument about Madigan offerimg a different style of play from the bench, and think there's some validity to it, if he plays like he did against Connacht or Munster, we'll lose. Regardless of what gameplan is put into operation.

True, but if Jackson kicks like he did against Cardiff we will lose. So its a tough position for Schmidt. Lucky we have Sexton who was very good against SF.

You're not wrong. I was thinking that as I typed. But if Jacko kicks like he did against the Ospreys or Leicester, we're laughing.

ME-109 wrote:The question ad to how many Munster players would start at Ulster and Leinster is an easy answer....they wouldn't want to ( unless they are rejects like redden).

still the question as to the captain lads...hmmm

It's gotta be Toner. Everyone looks up to him.

According to Michael Corcoran at RTE, Cian Healy, Paul O'Connell and Keith Earls won't be training this week. Sean O'Brien might train on Thurdsay.

Andrew Trimble, Donncha O'Callaghan, Martin Moore and Roger Wilson added to squad.

Interesting its another tighthead not a loosehead. Maybe an indication they are happy with the two guys Court and McGrath to feature against Samoa, or just that Declan Fitzpatrick is also an ongoing doubt.

SecretFly wrote:Murray, for me personally, is much too hot and cold.
Zebo....................... well,.................. I don't want to offend people.

Earls though is actually quite a positive with me...in the sense that I think he'd have excelled under Schmidt.

I agree with this, and the great news is he is still 26. Schmidt will have plenty of time with him.

SecretFly wrote:

ME-109 wrote:The question ad to how many Munster players would start at Ulster and Leinster is an easy answer....they wouldn't want to ( unless they are rejects like redden).

still the question as to the captain lads...hmmm

It's gotta be Toner.  Everyone looks up to him.

 

rodders wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

ME-109 wrote:The question ad to how many Munster players would start at Ulster and Leinster is an easy answer....they wouldn't want to ( unless they are rejects like redden).

still the question as to the captain lads...hmmm

It's gotta be Toner.  Everyone looks up to him.

 

Thanks rodders saved me the bother...did you put that bet on Racing like i old you

Nah but I might give you a shout for a tip on last weeks lotto numbers.

theslosty wrote:PJ has played well lately but I do feel that some people are very quick to hype him up, for example Madigan's goal kicking is always immaculate but seems to get very little praise for it, whereas I've seen a few posters laud "outstanding" kicking performances from Jackson, when in reality even on a good day his percentages aren't world class

Don Alfonso wrote:But if Jacko kicks like he did against the Ospreys or Leicester, we're laughing.

 

Fair enough full marks for PJ's kicking against the Os, but against Leicester he did miss a clanger. Still a good kicking performance mind, and he played pretty well in general that night but some people are very anxious to "stick up for him".

But he is in good form, a few strong performances in a row, but none of them were show-stopping.

theslosty wrote:
But he is in good form, a few strong performances in a row, but none of them were show-stopping.

Sorry but that is an absolute nonsense statement.

His kicking from hand pretty much single handedly beat the Tigers - he had Flood and the back 3 eating out of his hand for 60 minutes. His performances against Blues, Ospreys and Montpellier were up there too.

He might look like one of the Muppets but right now he is delivering as accomplished performances as we've seen from an Irish fly-half in recent times.

rodders wrote:

theslosty wrote:
But he is in good form, a few strong performances in a row, but none of them were show-stopping.

Sorry but that is an absolute nonsense statement.

His kicking from hand pretty much single handedly beat the Tigers - he had Flood and the back 3 eating out of his hand for 60 minutes. His performances against Blues, Ospreys and Montpellier were up there too.

He might look like one of the Muppets but right now he is delivering as accomplished performances as we've seen from an Irish fly-half in recent times.

I said he has played well since the Ospreys game, how is that "absolute nonsense"?

And I agree his tactical kicking has been superb, definitely an area where he holds a major advantage over Madigan. But when I see some claim he single-handedly beat the Tigers, it only reinforces my existing view.

I'll rephrase then - if he'd of been off the field the Tigers would likely have won, as his kicking from hand turned the game. In my opinion.

If you factor the try saving tackle against Montpellier then the same probably applies.

I'm not sure what you class as show stopping, but when a player plays such a fundamental part in his sides results -against such quality opposition, I'm not sure what else you can ask - or indeed what else you are asking from him?

rodders wrote:I'll rephrase then - if he'd of been off the field the Tigers would likely have won, as his kicking from hand turned the game. In my opinion.

If you factor the try saving tackle against Montpellier then the same probably applies.

I'm not sure what you class as show stopping, but when a player plays such a fundamental part in his sides results -against such quality opposition, I'm not sure what else you can ask - or indeed what else you are asking from him?  

Don't forget as well rodders its not Pienaar or Marshall calling the attacking plays for Ulster its Jackson which is pretty impressive for a 21 year old

Ireland is coming to SA next year eh?

3 tests?

Are we? Aw bollix we timed that well .....  

Biltong wrote:Ireland is coming to SA next year eh?

3 tests?

I get a feeling you'll enjoy your guys marmalising the Irish, bilt  Which is a pity, as we've given some of your lads such a nice place to call home away from home.  There's gratitude for ye!!!

Irish Guys:

Tonight on "Reunion" Isa Nacewa reckoned that Joe Schmidt could well get Irelands first victory over the ABs.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Irish Guys:

Tonight on "Reunion" Isa Nacewa reckoned that  Joe Schmidt could well get Irelands first victory over the ABs.

Isa, you know we all love you here. But please..........shut it! We have a mortal fear of people thinking we might have a chance. Much too much pressure.

SecretFly wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Irish Guys:

Tonight on "Reunion" Isa Nacewa reckoned that  Joe Schmidt could well get Irelands first victory over the ABs.

Isa, you know we all love you here.  But please..........shut it!  We have a mortal fear of people thinking we might have a chance.  Much too much pressure.

If my memory serves me right he didnt use the word 'chance"... far too speculative. but Ill check the recordng to morrow.

I'm sitting on the fence regarding Jackson. He does have a good rugby brain and is talented but very error prone so far. He is very young yet though and has plenty of time on his side.


Madigan has talent but he needs to control games better. I think people are being overly harsh on Madigan considering he has started 2 games this season and they've a new coach and the backline has not got firing yet.


You'd have to start Madigan ahead of Jackson for Ireland because Madigan is a 90% kicker while Jackson is about 66% kicker. I presume in the big games Sexton will start and Madigan on the bench.

profitius wrote:
You'd have to start Madigan ahead of Jackson for Ireland because Madigan is a 90% kicker while Jackson is about 66% kicker. I presume in the big games Sexton will start and Madigan on the bench.

That's a logical point but what I would say is that for all the plaudits Madigan gets, he is not, nor ever has been deemed good enough by either Schmidt or O'Connor to be the first choice 10 at Leinster.

If he is indeed a 90% kicker (fact) and the best passer in the country (popular opinion) then what is the issue? Too young? Nope. Tries? Nope.

If it quacks like a duck then it should be a duck but in this case it would seem not because O'Connor went an bought a duck which he deems better suited to the needs of the flock.

Well he should be our starting 10 now and under Schmidt he was behind the second best 10 in the world (imo).

He is definately no where near the finished article though.

SecretFly wrote:

Biltong wrote:Ireland is coming to SA next year eh?

3 tests?

I get a feeling you'll enjoy your guys marmalising the Irish, bilt  Which is a pity, as we've given some of your lads such a nice place to call home away from home.  There's gratitude for ye!!!

It is that home away from home that should concern you Fly. With the manner in which Meyer keeps selecting overseas players we might just see those stadiums as home grounds.  

It seems you boys won't be visiting us next year.

This from SARU website.

For June next year.
Castle Incoming Tour: Springboks v Wales (Johannesburg)
Castle Incoming Tour: Springboks v Wales (Nelspruit)
Castle Incoming Tour: Springboks v Scotland (Port Elizabeth)

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Well he should be our starting 10 now and under Schmidt he was behind the second best 10 in the world (imo).

He is definately no where near the finished article though.

Don't get me wrong I am not saying he isn't a duck but obviously some people (at Leinster) clearly aren't convinced by the quack and waddle. Is there something in that? I don't know.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Well he should be our starting 10 now and under Schmidt he was behind the second best 10 in the world (imo).

He is definately no where near the finished article though.

Come on...

profitius wrote:I'm sitting on the fence regarding Jackson. He does have a good rugby brain and is talented but very error prone so far. He is very young yet though and has plenty of time on his side.

Outside of his place kicking what are the errors your talking about? His kicking out of hand this season has been almost flawless this season, his passing has improved and hes a solid tackler

Notch wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Well he should be our starting 10 now and under Schmidt he was behind the second best 10 in the world (imo).

He is definately no where near the finished article though.

Come on...

ok...the best 10 in the world then. You guys, so fussy about details

SecretFly wrote:

Notch wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Well he should be our starting 10 now and under Schmidt he was behind the second best 10 in the world (imo).

He is definately no where near the finished article though.

Come on...

ok...the best 10 in the world then.  You guys, so fussy about details

Obviously he is not the best or even the 2nd best 10 in the world (although I'd say 3rd  ) but he was in quite some form from January to May last year, he was an 8 or 9/10 in almost every match. It was the best streak of form I'd seen from an Irish player since SOB in 2010/11.

This year he was MOTM against Cardiff, had one shaky game against Munster (along with most of his Leinster team-mates) and has been frozen out ever since.

I've asked this before but some people got slightly defensive, what does D'arcy offer at 12 that Madigan doesn't?

theslosty wrote:

I've asked this before but some people got slightly defensive, what does D'arcy offer at 12 that Madigan doesn't?

History?

Not being smart but I'd reckon that's a big factor still when coaches choose players.  D'arcy would have a reputation as a steady pair of hands with oodles of experience about what to do if games go away from the weekly plans.  Madigan is seen as someone of talent but with an unbridled loose youthful temperament about him.  So exciting but risky would be the ...risk assessment on him.

Not saying I agree with that perspective but I'd say it serves D'arcy well at the expence of Madigan. Indeed, that's probably true now more than ever with an increasingly jumpy head coach beginning to feel the strain of the pressure on his shoulders.

theslosty wrote:I've asked this before but some people got slightly defensive, what does D'arcy offer at 12 that Madigan doesn't?

Forget Madigan, Olding and Marshall have to be ahead of him

theslosty wrote:I've asked this before but some people got slightly defensive, what does D'arcy offer at 12 that Madigan doesn't?

Comedy value?

I've come to the conclusion that we're all trying our best to be objective about our different provincial flyhalves, but often, simply can't. No great shame in that. We love our guys.

But, for those outside Leinster, far away from “Madigan Square Gardens”, to hear that it’s PJ that people are too defensive about, is quite bewildering. Madigan’s hair appears to have been fashioned of purest Teflon, and all criticism slides away. (I had originally written a lot more on that, but I don’t want to bog this thread down. That’s just my opinion.)

I’ll say this – Madigan should have been picked for last year’s Six Nations, and he wasn’t. If they pick him instead of PJ for the AIs, I think they’re mirroring that mistake.

You wrote more on the properties of Teflon? Good man but I don't think this damn site does a Science section.
Pity, because I have a lot to say on the apparent paradox in Spacetime theory as it relates to the Expanding Universe.

Don Alfonso wrote:
I’ll say this – Madigan should have been picked for last year’s Six Nations, and he wasn’t. If they pick him instead of PJ for the AIs, I think they’re mirroring that mistake.

Yeah agree and disagree. There is merit to picking either player this time. It will come down to what Joe wants - I don't think whoever he picks will be a mistake - both will see some action this autumn and we should learn a bit more about both players ability to deliver at this level. Its win/win for the fans if not for both players.

I would hope though that these two are focused on usurping Sexton rather than just each other.

Don Alfonso wrote:I've come to the conclusion that we're all trying our best to be objective about our different provincial flyhalves, but often, simply can't. No great shame in that. We love our guys.

But, for those outside Leinster, far away from “Madigan Square Gardens”, to hear that it’s PJ that people are too defensive about, is quite bewildering. Madigan’s hair appears to have been fashioned of purest Teflon, and all criticism slides away. (I had originally written a lot more on that, but I don’t want to bog this thread down. That’s just my opinion.)

I’ll say this – Madigan should have been picked for last year’s Six Nations, and he wasn’t. If they pick him instead of PJ for the AIs, I think they’re mirroring that mistake.

You've got it the wrong way round. Leinster fans acknowledge that Jackson is playing better than Madigan. The men up North, at the end of last season, even after Jackson's horror show at the 6N, were arguing that Jackson should be ahead of Madigan.

Maddog will get the bench spot mostly because of Schmidt's bias, and because he probably offers more impact off the bench, and because he is a superb goal kicker.

I have been wanting to point out though that the only game where Madigan has played 10 and not been behind a retreating pack was against Cardiff, a match where he was MoM. If he had started against Ospreys and Castres I think opinions could may well have been a lot different.

Priority should always be given to home based players.

Sexton should bench it for Samoa and Australia at least. Nothing personal against him - but assisting International by asisting Provinces should be the continued goal in this climate when players are being increasingly tempted to leave.

gleesonisgod wrote:
You've got it the wrong way round. Leinster fans acknowledge that Jackson is playing better than Madigan. The men up North, at the end of last season, even after Jackson's horror show at the 6N, were arguing that Jackson should be ahead of Madigan.

Don't remember many saying that, most where of the opinion that Jackson in the long term would be the better player but last season Madigan was the form man behind Sexton

Okay...let's do a turn around on it. Who would do better?

Jackson with the current Leinster outfit (plus coach) or Madigan with the current Ulster contingent (plus Anscombe)?

Don't take it too seriously but I reckon I'd go for........................... nah, I'll keep it to myself.

I wonder how long before JJ passes them all by?

A very good goalkicker - great kick against Glasgow.

Hand on heart I'd wouldn't swap Paddy for Ian but would swap both for Sexton and all three for Jimmy Copperth.

Jimmy????????????????????

He's yours rodders.......... after you pay us enough for us to buy back Sexton out of his contract in France.

Em, I'd agree in a sense Sin. I was going to suggest we think of more than two...more than three. Sexton, Teflon, PJ AND JJ. It's a mess really to be breeding so many flyhalves and being so shortchanged elsewhere.

gleesonisgod wrote:I have been wanting to point out though that the only game where Madigan has played 10 and not been behind a retreating pack...

Madigan Excuses Bingo - HOUSE!!!

I also had "It's Matt O'Connor's fault", "It's Eoin Reddan's fault" and "It's the rain's fault".

Poor aul' Ian.

Sin é wrote:I wonder how long before JJ passes them all by?

A very good goalkicker - great kick against Glasgow.

Jackson was ahead of JJ at U20 level