Ireland's November Series and Beyond...

First topic message reminder :

Right boys, I want you give realistic guess of how Ireland will do in the November tests. I want you to separate your hearts from your heads. How do you predict Ireland will do and how will this set them up for the Six nations based on your poll prediction for the Autumn tests.

Do you believe in Schmidt? Do you believe he is the catalyst for consistent success or will we yet again disappoint by firing hot and cold like recent championships have dictated. Is there cause for quite confidence or should we be holding are cards close to our chest.

Feel free to throw out your wildest aspirations on the table or to throw caution to the wind.

The rest is up to you....


Sat 9th Ireland vs Samoa - Autumn
Sat 16th Ireland vs Australia - Autumn
Sun 24th Ireland vs New Zealand

As with DK a few possible quibbles on the team but generally looks to be what was expected...

Regardless of who was picked isn't how the team plays more important....lets wait til Sat for that

ME-109 wrote:
Regardless of who was picked isn't how the team plays more important....lets wait til Sat for that

Well stone the crows I couldn't have put it better myself!

rodders wrote:

Notch wrote:
It's just a reality check about the quality of players we have available. If that is our tight five... jeezus. It's not looking rosy!

Ah here now I've being telling everyone we have a rubbish panel for yonks!

Christ if I was offered the wooden spoon for the 6N I'd bite your hand off! Silverware is silverware!

A good grannygate scandal a la Henry's Wales should get us going again!

All Hail Joe the redeemer!  

A wooden spoon is not silverware sure tis wooden.

Better than an empty trophy cabinet and sure it saves on the polish.

true

Next weeks selection will be a lot more telling. This is a bit of a mix and match, to test some options.
McCarthy and McFadden are short of international quality, will Earls be back next week?
I donut that centre partnership will last 3 tests, so who Joe brings in will be interesting.

Guys, I guess there was a lot of optimism and seeing the likes of Devin Toner in is a bit like letting the air out of a balloon. I was imaging what Schmidt could do with some of the Ulster/Munster forwards mixed in to cover up where his Leinster side is weakest. I'm still hoping we see that sooner rather than later, and hoping they can pull it off on Saturday.

It all starts up front, but the saving grace of Leinster- how they managed to hide their soft underbelly under Schmidt to the extent that they did- is that their continuity game and breakdown work is so exceptional they rarely get dragged into situations where their tight five is exposed. When they did, they'd lose. Thats how we beat them twice in the Pro12 last year. We knew that we had better players right through our tight five in pretty much every position and if the game became attritional we could really beat up their pack and outmuscle them.

It's just so much easier said than done against Schmidts Leinster because they are so, so good at keeping the ball quick, their workrate at the breakdown compensates for their lack of quality forwards and they know how to win games. Hopefully Schmidts Ireland will be the same... but test rugby is a step up in physicality again. The idea of the Leinster tight five transplanted almost whole into an Ireland test side is pretty terrifying to me.

I support this team but I don't believe in it. I'm bummed out.

Okay...I'm going to be the first to say this, lads.  The players are there.  I'm behind the blessed lot of them.  

If we can't beat Samoa, that's going to open up the opportunities some people here are seeking for more young'uns.
If we can beat Samoa - then I hope it's in Leinster style (no offence meant )  I hope if we're in a mood to score tries, that we go ahead and score them.  Become like other sides in dominant positions and punish sides there to be punished.
If we have the ammo, then I hope Schmidt's era will signal the fact that we're prepared to use it - without embarrassment for the other poor team (that we've sometimes been all too ready to feel about sides like Italy in the past)

Anyway, none of that is what I wanted to say at all!  I just wanted to say - that I'm excited.

Notch wrote:
It all starts up front, but the saving grace of Leinster- how they managed to hide their soft underbelly under Schmidt to the extent that they did-

They signed Wagga and Brad Thorn .....

rodders wrote:

Notch wrote:
It all starts up front, but the saving grace of Leinster- how they managed to hide their soft underbelly under Schmidt to the extent that they did-

They signed Wagga and Brad Thorn .....

Pre-fecking-cisely!

BOD playing should help sell tickets for the game. The crowds are already way up this year which is great

Notch wrote:

rodders wrote:

Notch wrote:
It all starts up front, but the saving grace of Leinster- how they managed to hide their soft underbelly under Schmidt to the extent that they did-

They signed Wagga and Brad Thorn .....

Pre-fecking-cisely!

And of course Leinster have won nothing without them...

LeinsterFan4life wrote:BOD playing should help sell tickets for the game. The crowds are already way up this year which is great

Amen to that. Tickets for 25 squids help.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:BOD playing should help sell tickets for the game. The crowds are already way up this year which is great

I think the cheaper tickets and a new coach are the reason for that not BOD playing

I am ok with this team, and I fully expect the below team for Australia; I think Marshall will get in then, being supported by experienced guys on either side of him. highlighted those players I think will be consistent between the two teams. Toner is my only real worry, but In Joe We Trust. Also, I think if Henry plays well. we may well see POM and SOB battling for the 6 shirt.

    Samoa              -> Australia
15. Rob Kearney  - > Rob Kearney  
14. Tommy Bowe   - > Tommy Bowe  
13. Brian O'Driscoll   - > Brian O'Driscoll  
12. Gordon D'Arcy   - > Marshall
11. Fergus McFadden  - > Dave Kearney  
10. Paddy Jackson   - > Jonny Sexton
9. Conor Murray  - > Conor Murray  
8. Jamie Heaslip   - > Jamie Heaslip  
7. Chris Henry   - > Chris Henry  
6. Peter O'Mahony   - > Sean O'Brien  
5. Devin Toner   - > Paul O'Connell  
4. Mike McCarthy   - > Mike McCarthy  
3. Mike Ross   - > Mike Ross  
2. Rory Best   - > Rory Best  
1. Jack McGrath   - > Cian Healy  

REPLACEMENTS
16. Sean Cronin   - > Sean Cronin  
17. Cian Healy   - > Jack McGrath  
18. Declan Fitzpatrick   - > Declan Fitzpatrick  
19. Paul O'Connell   - > Devin Toner (Though would prefer Touhy here)  
20. Sean O'Brien   - > Peter O'Mahony  
21. Eoin Reddan   - > Eoin Reddan  
22. Ian Madigan   - > Paddy Jackson

geoff999rugby wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:BOD playing should help sell tickets for the game. The crowds are already way up this year which is great

I think the cheaper tickets and a new coach are the reason for that not BOD playing

That was the reason for selling 30,000k or so for the game. BOD playing will of course be the reason even more will sell. its his last season so everyone will want to see him.

Mickado wrote:

Notch wrote:

rodders wrote:

Notch wrote:
It all starts up front, but the saving grace of Leinster- how they managed to hide their soft underbelly under Schmidt to the extent that they did-

They signed Wagga and Brad Thorn .....

Pre-fecking-cisely!

And of course Leinster have won nothing without them...

No they won a couple of trophies last year, but I'm sure not even the most hardcore Leinster fan will say that they have the players they need in the second row to win another Heineken Cup. They need another marquee signing at second row to stay at that level.

Leinster are still a fantastic team, with many great units- as much as I'm disappointed not to see Marshall that centre partnership will work, a Leinster back three will work well- Leinster halfbacks and backrow are absolutely exceptional, as good as any side in Europe.

Leinsters second row? Thats their big weakness! Thats where they are lacking in quality! It's the last Leinster combo you want to see in green...

I think we can all agree that this is probably the best bench Ireland have had to call upon for a very long time.

[quote="Mickado"]I think we can all agree that this is probably the best bench Ireland have had to call upon for a very long time.[/quote

Some would say the bench is better than the starters  

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:I think we can all agree that this is probably the best bench Ireland have had to call upon for a very long time.[/quote

Some would say the bench is better than the starters  

Some might indeed say such a thing...thus the beauty of 80 minutes per one game.

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:I think we can all agree that this is probably the best bench Ireland have had to call upon for a very long time.[/quote

Some would say the bench is better than the starters  

Reddan over Murray?

Whatever you say man...

Only 3 players on the bench that would be unquestionably better than a starter, POC, SOB and Healy.

I hope some fans give Joe an earful during the game and he punches them. Just so the headline can read "Schmidt hits the fan"

...or that he playfully pulls down Kiss's tracksuit bottoms. Just so the headline reads: MesserSchmidt Kiss's Ass

As I understand it POC has been named Team captain but Heaslip is captain for this match until POC comes on the pitch

geoff999rugby wrote:As I understand it POC has been named Team captain but Heaslip is captain for this match until POC comes on the pitch

Correct. Shmidt was very clear that O'Connell is Captain and Heaslip vice-Captain, or "Captain of Vice". I made that last part up.

I'd assume the dynamics is that Heaslip will remain captain for as long as he's on the field.  Schmidt, as far as I can recall, said that Heaslip is captain for this game - no qualification about what happens when and if O'Connell comes on.  
I think it would be needless and anti-productive to whip the Captaincy immediately from Heaslip if O'Connell came on in the 50th minute - especially if the team had been performing satisfactorily up until that point.
Schmidt will want to bond the team, not tear them apart with fussy housework.

I still can't understand how much the personage of captain motivates such animated debates here though.

Sin. Whats Paul O'Connell's diciplinary record? Assuming your primary concern for Heaslip was his "apauling dicipline" could you please confirm what POCs is like?

He didnt get cited for kicking Kearney in the head so we can rule that one out. But in general would you be concerned that he has been seen stamping on Healy's head for which Hayes copped the blame and kicked Kearney in the head in an incident he was also vindicated for?

GunsGerms wrote:Sin. Whats Paul O'Connell's diciplinary record? Assuming your primary concern for Heaslip was his "apauling dicipline" could you please confirm what POCs is like?

He didnt get cited for kicking Kearney in the head so we can rule that one out.

International - 2 YCs (2003 & 2008)
Club - 3 YCs, 1 Red.

 OMG! HE'S GOT MORE INTERNATIONAL YELLOW CARDS THAN HEASLIP! OMFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFG!

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Sin. Whats Paul O'Connell's diciplinary record? Assuming your primary concern for Heaslip was his "apauling dicipline" could you please confirm what POCs is like?

He didnt get cited for kicking Kearney in the head so we can rule that one out.

International - 2 YCs (2003 & 2008)
Club - 3 YCs, 1 Red.

Given that he has magically gotten off a few times I dont think his diciplinary record is much better. Some examples:

Stamping v Australia in '03 world cup
Stamping v Leinster (Cian Healy's head)
Kicking Kearney in the head

His name was also mentioned in Munsters Kilkennygate saga.

He isnt exactly squeaky clean himself and I reckon his profile may have got him out of trouble on a few occasions.

By the way where do you get the yellow/red card stats? Would be good to know.

PS I think POC is the right man for the job. Just dont think Heaslip's record is as bad as you make out.

How many yellows make up a red? Two?

So that's three reds and yellow for Paulie.... the devious divil!

And his hair isn't as nice as Jaime's (and he talks in an awful bogger limerick accent and isn't "down" with the youth)

ME-109 wrote:And his hair isn't as nice as Jaime's (and he talks in an awful bogger limerick accent and isn't "down" with the youth)

He does have a real bogger accent alright. He is quite funny though to be fair to him.

Mickado wrote: OMG! HE'S GOT MORE INTERNATIONAL YELLOW CARDS THAN HEASLIP! OMFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFG!

A yellow is 10 minutes in the bin and a penalty.

The Red was about 60 mins in the bin and a couple of match suspensions - costly when you are in NZ with injuries mounting.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Toner does not come into the McCarthy/Tuohy argument. He is there to run the lineout with POC not starting. (if the team is accurate)

It was always going to be him POC and one of McCarthy/Tuohy.

McCarthy/Tuohy is not a tight call - if form means anything. Tuohy is playing the best rugby of his life
Anyone is rumours are correct Toner not Tuohy is on standby for POC -  that is complete and utter madness.
Toner should be nowhere near Samoa - completely the wrong player

You have obviously not been watching Toner. He is well able for this. He played against the ABs 3 years ago and has improved steadily since then.

No international side is going to play Tuohy and McCarthy together. They are too similar. One of them has to miss out. Toner and POC for the last 20 minutes would be better than Tuohy and McCarthy.

geoff999rugby wrote:
Tuohy not Toner

What bit of Tuohy and Toner are not in competition do you not get?

Not sure which side Tuohy packs down but I am presuming it is the TH. Him and McCarthy are the TH ruck hitting enforcer type locks.

POC and Toner are the LH Scrumaging Athletic Lineout running locks.

3 of them will make a matchday squad. For me Toner is the best bench option of the 4 as he can actually play on the TH side (He does when with Leo) He can also run a lineout.

For me that means one of McCarthy or Tuohy must miss out completely. McCarthy was in the side last year Tuohy less so. For me it is a tight call between them. I'd pick McCarthy but not by much. I don't see as much of Tuohy, You don't see as much of McCarthy. Probably has something to do with it.

Non Leinster folk (who perhaps don't watch him as closely) don't rate Toner's toughness. He's plenty tough. He just looks awkward. That makes people think he ain't any good. The guy is great in the lineout. Has serious hands in open play. Good rugby brain, Just don't expect him to run through people like Sean O'Brien. Even Bakkies Botha can't do that.

To sum up. With all fit it is POC and one of McCarthy/Tuohy and Toner on the bench.

If Poc is out, you need Toner and one of the others.

wasn't he banned for clocking some Welsh lad in the HC couple of years ago?

GunsGerms wrote:

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Sin. Whats Paul O'Connell's diciplinary record? Assuming your primary concern for Heaslip was his "apauling dicipline" could you please confirm what POCs is like?

He didnt get cited for kicking Kearney in the head so we can rule that one out.

International - 2 YCs (2003 & 2008)
Club - 3 YCs, 1 Red.

Given that he has magically gotten off a few times I dont think his diciplinary record is much better. Some examples:

Stamping v Australia in '03 world cup
Stamping v Leinster (Cian Healy's head)
Kicking Kearney in the head

His name was also mentioned in Munsters Kilkennygate saga.

He isnt exactly squeaky clean himself and I reckon his profile may have got him out of trouble on a few occasions.

Richie McCaw gets away with murder and most people admire him for it (unless you are playing against NZ).  
What is munster's Kilkennygate?

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Sin. Whats Paul O'Connell's diciplinary record? Assuming your primary concern for Heaslip was his "apauling dicipline" could you please confirm what POCs is like?

He didnt get cited for kicking Kearney in the head so we can rule that one out.

International - 2 YCs (2003 & 2008)
Club - 3 YCs, 1 Red.

Given that he has magically gotten off a few times I dont think his diciplinary record is much better. Some examples:

Stamping v Australia in '03 world cup
Stamping v Leinster (Cian Healy's head)
Kicking Kearney in the head

His name was also mentioned in Munsters Kilkennygate saga.

He isnt exactly squeaky clean himself and I reckon his profile may have got him out of trouble on a few occasions.

Richie McCaw gets away with murder and most people admire him for it (unless you are playing against NZ).  
What is munster's Kilkennygate?

Wasn't that the furore with Howlett and Ian Dowling or something on a night out in Kilkenny...something along the lines of group of Rugby players get drunk and are rowdy - shock!!!

Tuohy is not the enforcer lock at Ulster Muller/Stevenson are.

In fact if there was a criticism of Tuohy last year it was hid did too much playing in the loose and not enough at the breakdown.

He offers far more than Toner as a 2nd row in the scrum.
I do accept the point regarding which side of the scrum they pack but it is not unknown for Tuohy to pack behind the LH at Ulster

ME-109 wrote:Wasn't that the furore with Howlett and Ian Dowling or something on a night out in Kilkenny...something along the lines of group of Rugby players get drunk and are rowdy - shock!!!

One of the Munster players aparently urinated in a bar. Howlett tried to stop them didnt he?

This is getting a bit ridiculous now lads.

Woah.....! Some seriously over the top reactions on here in the last few hours.

This is a warm-up team. He is not underestimating Samoa but he knows some lads are coming back from injury and he has his "easiest game" up first so he is making use of that to rest some guys and see some newbies.

Jack McGrath has been playing really well this year and a lot of last year. Samoa are not a massive scrummaging team. Calm down lads.

Toner is not amazing but with POC starting he is the only other option as Tuohy/McCarthy etc both play TH. I would have picked Tuohy over McCarthy myself but Toner was always going to play if POC wasn't with Ryan and Henderson out. Toner has toughened up a lot, the scrum laws suit him more than they did, his rucking has improved, he is a great lineout man and great ball player. Calm down lads. (I understand that McCarthy is an odd call over the inform Tuohy)

Henry is in at 7 for the same reason Toner is in at 5. To cover SOB (POC). Henry is a great player and I'm really looking forward to seeing him.

Jackson is in at 10 to cover Sexton. I think Madigan is a better player but Jackson is definitely the right call to start the game as he offers control where as Madigan is a great impact. NB: if Sexton was starting I would have Madigan on the bench (because he offers and covers more from the bench than Jackson)

Darcy is in instead of Marshall. This is one that could go either way. I am not sure if Marshall will start against Australia but I hope so. God do I hope so. Darcy could be in there to offer guidance to Jackson but Marshall would offer familiarity. Perhaps it is game plan orientated in that Marshall hasn't yet got on Schmidt's wavelength (no one could blame him - it's only been a few weeks). I see no reason why he can't adapt to Schmidt's plan as he is a talented footballer and has good all-round skills. I do think his decision making would need to "change" in a green jersey as opposed to a white one. His order of plays would need to be re-worked. That's a complicated one and I could be writing about it all day.

McFadden is the best option on the wing after Zebo and Earls. Earls was doing flippin awesome stuff and should come back in unless McFadden has a whopper game....which he's been having a few of. He is the form winger in Leinster, hard to take down, massive workrate, low error count, kicking option.....he's quite underrated IMO.




Lads let this one breathe for a bit.....this selection means very little without

a) the performance and systems (we won't see many systems due to newness of coaching staff and possibly hiding things from Aus/NZ)

b) next week's team sheet.

Chill the beans boy and girls.   There's a reason our bench looks so good....stop typing for a second and think it through....




Much love from the sandpit. Get your green on.

As a great man so often writes.......

Believe.

Look all Im saying is that Heaslip's diciplinary record isnt great but neither is POCs. Lets not pretend he is an angel by contrast. It is good to have a hard edge. He is the right choice anyway though IMO.

POC and Touhy can bind down on either side.

Anyways Toner getting a bit of unfair stick, he's one of Leinster's better players these days.

McCarthy is the elephant in the engine room.

Hope Paddy Jackson has a good day at the office. Nice player. I expect him to take the kicks with McFadden in the team in case he gets the yips.

Schmidt is sensible enough to realise there should be more that one kicking option.

You're right of course Pete. Team selection day is a very emotionally charged day.

I don't agree with the idea that Toner and Tuohy aren't in direct competition. As a lock, Tuohy is an all-rounder. Can call the lineout, carry in wide channels, scrummages very well on either the tighthead side or the loosehead side and has massively improved his work rate in the tight. He's one of the very few locks I'd feel is as comfortable with 4 or 5 on his back. He's the most athletic lock we have, and with Ryan missing and O'Connell just coming back from injury probably the most physically abrasive lock we could have started.

It may well be that Schmidt and Plumtree are looking to McCarthy to call the lineouts and thats the key reason Tuohy isn't in but I'm astounded there's no place for him against a team like Samoa. He's an athletic, physical guy who would seem perfect for this challenge- maybe they are concerned about his discipline. He can give away silly penalties and Samoa will doubtless bring plenty of niggle.

I hope he gets a chance at some point, he's earned it but this is only the first team Schmidt has named so I should be giving him and the team waaaaay more of the benefit of the doubt than I have been. Fair enough- hope we see Tuohy more as the series goes on. I think if we dominate the breakdown here we'll win this and I'm fairly optimistic about that. Best and Henry will be a complete nuisance on their ball and force them to put a lot of guys into clear them out of rucks on their own ball, hopefully win us a few penalties too- if Schmidt can get us working as hard at the breakdown and clearing it as quickly as he had Leinster we can hurt them.

On the Captaincy, apparently BOD ruled himself out?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Hate him so much you can't be arsed spelling his name right eh?

Who? Kneeslip?

That's him.

I'll tee them up. You smash them over the net.  

Your hatred of him is funny really. Guy is one of the best rugby players on the planet. Arguably only behind Read. But because he wears headphones and loose trousers we should get shut of him?

Sorry Jen, but that really is complete rubbish.  I know you are a fan, but Heaslip has been well off the mark compared to many other 8s, never mind being considered one of the best rugby players on the planet..

He has been so inconsistent over the past few years.

I gave up on the Heaslip thing a few pages ago. But I'd just like to point out that this post is from a guy who thought James Cawlin was the "form 8 in Ireland"  

As I said earlier. He changed his game for various reasons (mainly because it was the best for the team) from the all singing all dancing carrying game to a more rucking, defensive and breakdown game.

Some people have interpreted this as a "loss of form" He can still turn on the carrying when he wants.

I think Jackson is really well suited to the attacking game Joe will want to play so it should be interesting to see how he goes.