Ireland's November Series and Beyond...

First topic message reminder :

Right boys, I want you give realistic guess of how Ireland will do in the November tests. I want you to separate your hearts from your heads. How do you predict Ireland will do and how will this set them up for the Six nations based on your poll prediction for the Autumn tests.

Do you believe in Schmidt? Do you believe he is the catalyst for consistent success or will we yet again disappoint by firing hot and cold like recent championships have dictated. Is there cause for quite confidence or should we be holding are cards close to our chest.

Feel free to throw out your wildest aspirations on the table or to throw caution to the wind.

The rest is up to you....


Sat 9th Ireland vs Samoa - Autumn
Sat 16th Ireland vs Australia - Autumn
Sun 24th Ireland vs New Zealand

Engine#4 wrote:

theslosty wrote:What's the consensus on the back row? I think most of us agree that SOB, POM and Heaslip (despite his struggles as captain) are the top three individuals, but would Henry or McLaughlin create a more balanced unit?

SOB looks like a better openside every week so maybe a "natural 7" like Henry would no longer make that much of a difference.

One of the areas which I think may test supporters desires to see 'horses for courses' versus old provincial loyalties.  I don't think anyone would argue that the best 3 currently fit are POM,SOB and Heaslip (O'Brien and O'Mahoney in particular have been excellent recently) but they've never really ticked as a unit.  McLaughlin has been going well this season and I'd say an all Leinster backrow will play at some point though I think Schmidt will mix it up for each test.

(POM>Henry and Locky)+(POM>Heaslip)+(Balanced backrow>unbalanced backrow)+(SOB must start)= 6.SOB 7.Henry 8.POM

I would like to see O'Brien getting a shot at number 8 again at some point. He is not always going to play at 7, I am almost sure of that. Especially if Leavy is as good as everyone says he might be. Which means O'Brien will be pushed into either 6 or 8.

6) O'Mahony
7) Henry
8) O'Brien

I would like to see if this would gel at all. To me it is very balanced and each player can do what they do best in their respective positions.

I read way back that there was a conscious decision to change O'Briens style and develop him away from the ball carrying dynamo to prolong his career - use his natural footballing skills more at 7. He's actually not that big a guy for me open side is his long term position. He has a limited shelf life as a battering ram.

I think Chris Henry deserves to start one or two games. Its going to be attritional so Schmidt might decide to makeone or two changes to the backrow during the 3 weeks.

The second row is a bit of a problem area now. Besides POC theres no real stand outs. Hopefully one or two will emerge in the next few years but theres no stand outs among the young players either.

Hooker is up for grabs. You have 3 very different players. Best is the best doing the nitty gritty and winning turnovers, Cronin is the best ball carrier and adds most impact off the bench while Sherry is the best thrower. Best is more experienced so I expect Schmidt to go with him.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I would like to see O'Brien getting a shot at number 8 again at some point.  He is not always going to play at 7, I am almost sure of that.  Especially if Leavy is as good as everyone says he might be.  Which means O'Brien will be pushed into either 6 or 8.

6) O'Mahony
7) Henry
8) O'Brien

I would like to see if this would gel at all.  To me it is very balanced and each player can do what they do best in their respective positions.

That is not balanced at all. All 3 players prefer playing in the wider channels and you don't have a hard nosed basteraud in there who is going to physically graft with brawn rather than guile/breakdown skill.

I'd want someone in there who is a bit of a piano shifter at 6, like Ferris would be perfect or McLaughlin would be like a Ferris light.
The three you have there are too loose to go together IMO. I'm not sure POM and SOB can be in the same team myself and make up a successfully balanced backrow unless Ferris is at 6.

profitius wrote:
The second row is a bit of a problem area now. Besides POC theres no real stand outs. Hopefully one or two will emerge in the next few years but theres no stand outs among the young players either.

Hooker is up for grabs. You have 3 very different players. Best is the best doing the nitty gritty and winning turnovers, Cronin is the best ball carrier and adds most impact off the bench while Sherry is the best thrower. Best is more experienced so I expect Schmidt to go with him.

I don't think Hooker is up for grabs at all as Best is a country mile ahead of the others. Cronin is good carrier but that's it and Varley is in better form than Sherry imo.

In terms of second row I think Toner and Touhy are the form players right now. Henderson is a stand out talent in my opinion and come the world cup he could be world class.

I really like Varley.  I've been thinking about him getting a shot in the Irish team for some time now.  
He's old school Munster.  You just look at his eyes and there's a whole load of divilment there - in the sense of being a cute hoor and having plenty of room for an old mid-game blood feud to keep his concentration on the game alive.
But that's not to say he's a hot head. No, he seems to keep an inner calm - when others might be losing theirs, Varley is calmly thinking ahead.
Best can be steaming hot in certain games, which can obviously help, but can hinder too.  Cronin can also be overly nostrilly (pent up horse in other words)
Varley; a cigarette - a knowing twinkle in his eye - a yawn - and 'let's do this.'

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I would like to see O'Brien getting a shot at number 8 again at some point.  He is not always going to play at 7, I am almost sure of that.  Especially if Leavy is as good as everyone says he might be.  Which means O'Brien will be pushed into either 6 or 8.

6) O'Mahony
7) Henry
8) O'Brien

I would like to see if this would gel at all.  To me it is very balanced and each player can do what they do best in their respective positions.

That is not balanced at all. All 3 players prefer playing in the wider channels and you don't have a hard nosed basteraud in there who is going to physically graft with brawn rather than guile/breakdown skill.

Henry is a grafter, POM can play that role too

I think if you need someone to be at every breakdown in defence, Henry is the man and O'Mahony is a smart enough player to do that too. The thing is a lack of genuine ball carriers in the backrow but McLaughlin doesn't solve that problem either.

Only real carrier we have is SOB...

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/sexton-picked-up-pre-game-niggle-travers-1.1583148

Sextons availability for Samoa still up in the air- Schmidt may focus on getting him right for Australia.

Schmidt text message to Sexton before game: "What we talked about..! I'm not asking you now. I'm begging you"
Sexton: "Don't know. We'll see."

SecretFly wrote:I really like Varley.  I've been thinking about him getting a shot in the Irish team for some time now.  
He's old school Munster.  You just look at his eyes and there's a whole load of divilment there - in the sense of being a cute hoor and having plenty of room for an old mid-game blood feud to keep his concentration on the game alive.
But that's not to say he's a hot head. No, he seems to keep an inner calm - when others might be losing theirs, Varley is calmly thinking ahead.
Best can be steaming hot in certain games, which can obviously help, but can hinder too.  Cronin can also be overly nostrilly (pent up horse in other words)
Varley; a cigarette - a knowing twinkle in his eye - a yawn - and 'let's do this.'

Yeah good choice if you want the penalty count against to go through the roof...

Notch wrote:I think if you need someone to be at every breakdown in defence, Henry is the man and O'Mahony is a smart enough player to do that too. The thing is a lack of genuine ball carriers in the backrow but McLaughlin doesn't solve that problem either.

Only real carrier we have is SOB...

I am not sure of the discussion concerning balance/grafters versus whatever but the fact is the three best backrowers we have are SOM and POM with Jamie and his hair a mile or so behind and lucky that Coughlan/Wilson are too old.

When it comes down to it I want the three best players in the team. Whether Joe the Messiah chops and changes is up to him but I doubt it as he is fairly conservative (i.e he picked his best team) for Leinster for the big games and these are three big games for him and he will want to do well, get his game plan going and a core team in place. I don't think he will start "looking" at very new combinations/players.

ah... ME. I still say I'd let him horse around with the Irish team for a bit. You never know how a cookie disintergates in tea until you dip it in.

SecretFly wrote:ah... ME.  I still say I'd let him horse around with the Irish team for a bit.  You never know how a cookie disintergates in tea until you dip it in.

Do you prefer soft and soggy with the a little daring in case it falls in or just a slight dip so that the cookie is just slightly soggy...its a question for the ages...

Best and Cronin to be our two hookers every time. Varley can sing the anthem and be on stand-by for any post match punch ups that might happen!

Poor Varley.

Oh well, I tried to educate the masses, Damien. I promised you I'd bring it up as a thought.... but............... well, they're all set in their ways. You'll have to keep a sloggin' in Pro12 for now.

O'Brien is only due to get back training this week, so he's still a doubt for the Samoa game if he doesn't get back to full fitness soon.

Really hope he is fit tbh, no O'Brien there's not many other ball carriers in that pack of forwards.

rodders wrote:

profitius wrote:
The second row is a bit of a problem area now. Besides POC theres no real stand outs. Hopefully one or two will emerge in the next few years but theres no stand outs among the young players either.

Hooker is up for grabs. You have 3 very different players. Best is the best doing the nitty gritty and winning turnovers, Cronin is the best ball carrier and adds most impact off the bench while Sherry is the best thrower. Best is more experienced so I expect Schmidt to go with him.

I don't think Hooker is up for grabs at all as Best is a country mile ahead of the others. Cronin is good carrier but that's it and Varley is in better form than Sherry imo.

In terms of second row I think Toner and Touhy are the form players right now. Henderson is a stand out talent in my opinion and come the world cup he could be world class.

He isn't a country mile ahead of the others. If he plays anything like last season he won't be in the squad. You can't have your hooker handing the opposition back hard won ball.


Schmidt is a coach who wants to do the basics very well. He demands that simple things like handling and passing are of a high standard. For that reason Trimble isn't in the squad because Dave Kearney and McFadden are likely to make less mistakes. I can see the same happening with Best if he doesn't improve.

Michael Corcoran ‏@MichaelC_RTE 2m

Paul O Connell, Cian Healy and Sean O'Brien expected to train fully tomorrow, Keith Earls ruled out of game v Samoa #rterugby

Not too bad. McFadden in for Earls I suppose.

Were the Samoans playing at the weekend or in camp?

profitius wrote:He isn't a country mile ahead of the others. If he plays anything like last season he won't be in the squad. You can't have your hooker handing the opposition back hard won ball.

I didn't notice Cronin or Sherry on the Lions tour? I don't think Best place is under threat as much as you'd like it to be - he'll be one of the first players on the team sheet I've no doubt.

rodders wrote:

profitius wrote:He isn't a country mile ahead of the others. If he plays anything like last season he won't be in the squad. You can't have your hooker handing the opposition back hard won ball.

I didn't notice Cronin or Sherry on the Lions tour? I don't think Best place is under threat as much as you'd like it to be - he'll be one of the first players on the team sheet I've no doubt.

Lets just hope he has some giving some decent lineout calls instead of to themselves everytime so the opposition can read it everytime

As his number is 2 ...... you're in with a real chance there, Rodders.

profitius wrote:
He isn't a country mile ahead of the others. If he plays anything like last season he won't be in the squad. You can't have your hooker handing the opposition back hard won ball.

Did you see Cronin against Connacht? He couldnt throw straight or strike the ball in the scrum, the ball sat for an age before he did and it led directly to Marmion getting the Connacht try

marty2086 wrote:

rodders wrote:

profitius wrote:He isn't a country mile ahead of the others. If he plays anything like last season he won't be in the squad. You can't have your hooker handing the opposition back hard won ball.

I didn't notice Cronin or Sherry on the Lions tour? I don't think Best place is under threat as much as you'd like it to be - he'll be one of the first players on the team sheet I've no doubt.

Lets just hope he has some giving some decent lineout calls instead of to themselves everytime so the opposition can read it everytime

Well 90% of them are going to Toner so (the other 10% are overthrows)....

marty2086 wrote:

profitius wrote:
He isn't a country mile ahead of the others. If he plays anything like last season he won't be in the squad. You can't have your hooker handing the opposition back hard won ball.

Did you see Cronin against Connacht? He couldnt throw straight or strike the ball in the scrum, the ball sat for an age before he did and it led directly to Marmion getting the Connacht try

And thats my point. Poor throwing is a body blow for any team. Sherry is easily the best thrower. People might point to the Edinburgh game but Edinburgh read Munsters lineouts and before that game Shrry didn't miss one all season.

Well Keith Wood couldn't hit a barn door with a banjo in his pomp but I know who I'd pick between him and Sherry...

I'd have to say I'd pick Sherry over Wood right now. Wood is suffering too much PTSD from the Gatland fall out. His mind wouldn't be on it.

Bring back Shane '2 tries' Byrne - now he could throw...

A real treat for everyone here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaZwFGu7ngo

Ye Sherry has a huge advantage of not being a dodgy thrower, however Best has to be in the 23 at least and the fact that Cronin plays for Leinster counts for more than being able to throw into a line out.

When is the team being announced (and Captain?)

profitius wrote:

rodders wrote:

profitius wrote:
The second row is a bit of a problem area now. Besides POC theres no real stand outs. Hopefully one or two will emerge in the next few years but theres no stand outs among the young players either.

Hooker is up for grabs. You have 3 very different players. Best is the best doing the nitty gritty and winning turnovers, Cronin is the best ball carrier and adds most impact off the bench while Sherry is the best thrower. Best is more experienced so I expect Schmidt to go with him.

I don't think Hooker is up for grabs at all as Best is a country mile ahead of the others. Cronin is good carrier but that's it and Varley is in better form than Sherry imo.

In terms of second row I think Toner and Touhy are the form players right now. Henderson is a stand out talent in my opinion and come the world cup he could be world class.

He isn't a country mile ahead of the others. If he plays anything like last season he won't be in the squad. You can't have your hooker handing the opposition back hard won ball.


Schmidt is a coach who wants to do the basics very well. He demands that simple things like handling and passing are of a high standard. For that reason Trimble isn't in the squad because Dave Kearney and McFadden are likely to make less mistakes. I can see the same happening with Best if he doesn't improve.

Well Best had a poor Lions tour but a very good season- if he throws like he did for the Lions there's a chance for someone else to come in but if he throws like he did all last season for Ulster and also for Ireland and has been throwing so far he'll be definitely be selected.

Basically, barring some rotation, Best will start against Samoa and if he has an absolute nightmare in the lineout he may be dropped. If he is anywhere above okay at set piece time he'll probably continue as first choice!

As much as Sherry might the better thrower, Best has him beat in pretty much every other area.

DOC has signed a new 2 year deal everyone will be happy to hear - just shows how long you can last these days if you spend most of the match crouched over the top of a ruck on all fours ....  

I'm hoping for balls to Heaslip or Toner at the back of the lineout and quick ball into a backline with some creativity (here's hoping)

Bit of succession problem in that position for Munster. Ian Nagle had a few good games way back then dropped off the face of the earth. O'Connell is needing to manage his body and picking up lots of injuries. Ryan will be Irelands go-to lock for the foreseeable future and be in and out of Munster.

Keeping DOC around makes a degree of sense.

Notch wrote:Basically, barring some rotation, Best will start against Samoa and if he has an absolute nightmare in the lineout he may be dropped. If he is anywhere above okay at set piece time he'll probably continue as first choice!

As much as Sherry might the better thrower, Best has him beat in pretty much every other area.

I'm hoping for some rotation though.  Let Best have the Samoa game, then Cronin/Sherry for Ozzies with Best back in for the NZ game.

I think there will be a heavy tint of blue in the match day squad for the Samoa game.  I'm also not expecting the fireworks to go off as planned in these AIs, it will take time for the Joe way to settle in.

Hmm if there is a heavy blue tint to the team wouldn't you expect to have the team hit the ground running as they will be following the Joe way from previously. This isn't a club/province. It will be a testament (hopefully) to his skills as a coach to get the Joe way working for him as soon as possible no? What happens if the team turn into a rabble during the Samoan game (alá Italy in the 6ns)...what then?

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I would like to see O'Brien getting a shot at number 8 again at some point.  He is not always going to play at 7, I am almost sure of that.  Especially if Leavy is as good as everyone says he might be.  Which means O'Brien will be pushed into either 6 or 8.

6) O'Mahony
7) Henry
8) O'Brien

I would like to see if this would gel at all.  To me it is very balanced and each player can do what they do best in their respective positions.

That is not balanced at all. All 3 players prefer playing in the wider channels and you don't have a hard nosed basteraud in there who is going to physically graft with brawn rather than guile/breakdown skill.

I'd want someone in there who is a bit of a piano shifter at 6, like Ferris would be perfect or McLaughlin would be like a Ferris light.
The three you have there are too loose to go together IMO. I'm not sure POM and SOB can be in the same team myself and make up a successfully balanced backrow unless Ferris is at 6.

Although POM has been found in the wider channels for Ireland (not sure why) he is quite clearly best when he is getting involved in the donkey work. This is what he does for Munster, and where he excels. He is a great carrier in open space, and very skilful, but they are more luxuries on top of his fantastic work rate. Under Kidney this was not the case though, for whatever reason.

I'm not sure how you can possibly say Henry prefers playing in the wider channels though..  

Notch wrote:I think if you need someone to be at every breakdown in defence, Henry is the man and O'Mahony is a smart enough player to do that too. The thing is a lack of genuine ball carriers in the backrow but McLaughlin doesn't solve that problem either.

Only real carrier we have is SOB...

POM is also a great ball carrier; quite a rangy sort of ball carrier, very different from SOB. Always seems to make ground even in the tight exchanges. I think with both POM and SOB in the back row we are fine for ball carrying options.

O'Donnell is another option though, if we are looking for more carrying options. Both himself and O'Mahony look great together.

Notch wrote:Bit of succession problem in that position for Munster. Ian Nagle had a few good games way back then dropped off the face of the earth. O'Connell is needing to manage his body and picking up lots of injuries. Ryan will be Irelands go-to lock for the foreseeable future and be in and out of Munster.

Keeping DOC around makes a degree of sense.

I think Ryan may struggle under these new scrum engage laws. I think we'll see him employed more in the Munster backrow as he's too lightweight in the scrum....

Notch wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I would like to see O'Brien getting a shot at number 8 again at some point.  He is not always going to play at 7, I am almost sure of that.  Especially if Leavy is as good as everyone says he might be.  Which means O'Brien will be pushed into either 6 or 8.

6) O'Mahony
7) Henry
8) O'Brien

I would like to see if this would gel at all.  To me it is very balanced and each player can do what they do best in their respective positions.

That is not balanced at all. All 3 players prefer playing in the wider channels and you don't have a hard nosed basteraud in there who is going to physically graft with brawn rather than guile/breakdown skill.

Henry is a grafter, POM can play that role too

I'd disagree on both those fronts. Henry isn't much of a grafter in that he doesn't Smeg sh!t up, he is much more subtle in how he plays I believe, clever player but not the guy who is gonna get some aggression going towards the rucks in my eyes. POM doesn't seem to do that to rucks, he is a looney toon when it comes to carrying and tackling but his rucking seems to be of a (good but) lesser quality.

We have ball carriers in Healy and Tuohy in our front 5 unit. We then have SOB and Heaslip. Marshall and Bowe are relatively powerful backs. I'm not worried about ball carrying myself.

Really sucks for Earls as he was playing some seriously good rugby

http://www.espn.co.uk/ireland/rugby/story/203053.html

Looks like POC is off at the end of the season....

POC doing the biz and hoping to suck every penny he can get off the IRFU.

But he's right. These big French sides with their large squads can afford to let their players rest up on clouds of cottonwool. Sexton had to pretend he has lame to get a breather

If I were POC I'd leave Munster too...man is wasted with that shower.

Seriously rodders, don't you think you can do better than that

He's holding them back this year as he's never out of cottonwool these days

But seriously, yeah, it'll be interesting to see if he takes up an offer.  But if he does, the poor guy will be worked like a carthorse to get their investment money back on him, as the new club will be conscious that it's kinda last-legs on his career and he mightn't last a full season, even through training.

If I was Paul, I'd ease off the trottle towards final retirement day, not become a new owner's donkey.