Eng v Aus match thread + build up

by DeludedOptimistorjustDave Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:09 pm

First topic message reminder :

Chance to chat about the game.
I think it will be a real cracker with England to take it by around 8 points or more.
I know every game is important but the management must have this penciled in as a must win because they can win it if they play it right.

by doctor_grey Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:09 am

At Saints, Lawes and Wood provide a lot of good push for the props to work with. I think the new laws are a bit more about the entire pack than the hit from the front row. I think we can take the Aussie pack. Grind 'em and maul 'em for 80 sublime minutes.

by Geordie Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:12 am

Wow Hoody ol boy, your not very enthusiastic about this one are you.

Id like to agree with Chris.

Defensively - Is there actually any weeklinks? Even Ashton has found his tackling boots so far this season...and with Lawes leading like a exocet missile i think we should be fine.

Offensively - I was hugely critical that we were underweight - especially against Wales. I have slowly changed my mind and think now its more the fact we lacked ANY kind of carrying ability to relieve the pressure and take the game to the opposition. Look at this pack now...Mako, Billy, Tom Young, as hard yard makers, launchbury, Wood and Robshaw all capable in the looser areas and even Lawes appears to have adapted his carrying a bit.
The other benefits of this is that we can then get our strike runners like Ashton, Yarde brown etc running lines on their shoulders...and also using Tomkins as a pivot.

Lineout - we have Lawes, launchbury, Wood and Robshaw giving us 4 options.

Scrum - Well Youngs and Cole are doing just fine with the new laws and have faced the Aussies before....no worries. Mako despite a torrid half an hour spell is not HALF as bad as everyone seems to make out...and indeed im sure Sarries have been hammering him in this area constantly aswell...add to that Parling is lighter than Lawes and Launchbury we have added bulk in the engine room to support the front row.

I am actually positive that IF we can get our potential gameplan going...we good do quite well.

by BamBam Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:27 am

sirtidychris wrote:Out of that oz backline the last thing i would want to do is kick it anywhere near folau !! He is a natural athletic unit and covers ground so well....he went well at fullback against the lions looking electric everytime he touched the ball...so doubt he will have a problem against us, kick the corners i say

Ha, yep I would definitely avoid kicking it down his throat!

I mean in terms of general FB positioning, looking at someone like Halfpenny who is absolutely brilliant and every kick seems to go straight to him no matter where they are aimed .. just not sure if Folau has the same knack for being in the right place. If we have the chance to make him chase a bouncing ball and get a strong chase on I think it could pay dividends!

by Duty281 Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:38 am

It was a crushing and humilating defeat that started England off to eventually conquer the world in 2003, let's hope that happens again 12 years on. Home advantage, better man-for-man, and have a point to prove. England really are in a better class than Australia.

England by 10-12. Teams like this, England should be beating, and beating well.

by ChequeredJersey Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:38 am

He played wing against the Liobs and is a magnificent counterattacker. However, good at positioning himself he is not

by thomh Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:40 am

sirtidychris wrote:Out of that oz backline the last thing i would want to do is kick it anywhere near folau !! He is a natural athletic unit and covers ground so well....he went well at fullback against the lions looking electric everytime he touched the ball...so doubt he will have a problem against us, kick the corners i say

Correct me if I'm wrong but, unless he swapped there late in a game, Folau didn't play full back against the Lions. Seems to have swapped there since though.

by Cyril Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:43 am

thomh wrote:
sirtidychris wrote:Out of that oz backline the last thing i would want to do is kick it anywhere near folau !! He is a natural athletic unit and covers ground so well....he went well at fullback against the lions looking electric everytime he touched the ball...so doubt he will have a problem against us, kick the corners i say
Correct me if I'm wrong but, unless he swapped there late in a game, Folau didn't play full back against the Lions. Seems to have swapped there since though.

Yeah, when Barnes got injured (in the 1st Test) Beale came in at FB. Folau was wing for all 3 I think.

by butterfingers Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:46 am

Have the teams been named yet?

I am a touch more cautious than many, Aus were pretty poor last year and we all but beat ourselves.

by beshocked Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:49 am

Hood83 wrote:
beshocked wrote:
Hood83 wrote:Can't say i'm looking forward to Dickson and Tomkins playing, it has stodge written all over it. If our backrow doesn't muller Oz at the breakdown we are going to have some very slow and ponderous ball shipped along our line. I don't think Tomkins is anywhere near international class.
Nice of you to write off a player before he has had even played.

You talk about slow and ponderous ball. I would say that Dickson generally gives a snappier pass than Youngs and Care who have a tendency to crab across the field and take too long to make decisions occasionally.

Dickson is in very good form. I know some posters have been waxing lyrical about Myler but he's been made to look better because of the decent form of his scrum halves.

People underestimate how much influence a 9's performance has on the 10's performance. Slow service from the 9 puts the rest of the backline under pressure but if the 9 gives the 10 more time than it makes their job much easier.

In a way it makes sense to start - Dickson/Farrell - both in good form. It means you can bring the Tigers duo of Youngs/Flood off the bench.

Farrell hasn't exactly had the best 9s to work with for his club this season so we might see a further improvement from him.
Nice of you to jump in with your usual chippy support of Sarries players.

Dickson is an unusual one for me. I'd agree when he concentrates on getting the ball away he's probably marginally quicker at getting it out from under a pack than Youngs or Care. The requirement for the scrum half to use the ball has improved his game as he was an awful dawdler before that. Youngs, for me, has gone backwards, but I think Care is a better player than Dickson, and on form his pass is as good.

Our back-line is slower than erosion and carries almost zero running threat at 9, 10, 12 and 13. I don't think that is good enough. Not a criticism of the individual players, but picked together I think we don't have enough. The Aussies are too savvy to just have it trucked up against them.

Hood83 what do you expect me to say? I would have personally probably had Trinder instead of Tomkins but as Tomkins has been picked I will support him. I certainly won't write him off as not being international class before he's even played!

Dickson is not a Sarries player by the way.

Care in my opinion has proven himself as an excellent club player but for me has never really shown the same form at international level.

I think you're underrating the backline. Okay it doesn't have that much X factor but I think the players are good enough to make decent progress. Surely it's an improvement on the one in the 6 nations?

by ChequeredJersey Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:52 am

England Team: Mike Brown (Harlequins), Chris Ashton (Saracens), Joel Tomkins Saracens), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester), Marland Yarde London Irish), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Lee Dickson (Northampton), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Tom Youngs (Leicester), Dan Cole (Leicester), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton), Tom Wood (Northampton), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, c), Billy Vunipola (Saracens).
Replacements: Dylan Hartley (Northampton), Joe Marler Harlequins), David Wilson (Bath), Dave Attwood Bath), Ben Morgan Gloucester), Ben Youngs (Leicester), Toby Flood (Leicester), Ben Foden (Northampton).

It's a good team

by Cyril Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:55 am

That's a strong bench too.

It's good to know that if each player came off the bench we're not looking at a drop in quality.

Conversely (as is often said) I guess it still means we're not quite sure about nailed-on players as you could argue for most of the bench players getting a start.

by ChequeredJersey Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:56 am

beshocked wrote:
Hood83 wrote:
beshocked wrote:
Hood83 wrote:Can't say i'm looking forward to Dickson and Tomkins playing, it has stodge written all over it. If our backrow doesn't muller Oz at the breakdown we are going to have some very slow and ponderous ball shipped along our line. I don't think Tomkins is anywhere near international class.
Nice of you to write off a player before he has had even played.

You talk about slow and ponderous ball. I would say that Dickson generally gives a snappier pass than Youngs and Care who have a tendency to crab across the field and take too long to make decisions occasionally.

Dickson is in very good form. I know some posters have been waxing lyrical about Myler but he's been made to look better because of the decent form of his scrum halves.

People underestimate how much influence a 9's performance has on the 10's performance. Slow service from the 9 puts the rest of the backline under pressure but if the 9 gives the 10 more time than it makes their job much easier.

In a way it makes sense to start - Dickson/Farrell - both in good form. It means you can bring the Tigers duo of Youngs/Flood off the bench.

Farrell hasn't exactly had the best 9s to work with for his club this season so we might see a further improvement from him.
Nice of you to jump in with your usual chippy support of Sarries players.

Dickson is an unusual one for me. I'd agree when he concentrates on getting the ball away he's probably marginally quicker at getting it out from under a pack than Youngs or Care. The requirement for the scrum half to use the ball has improved his game as he was an awful dawdler before that. Youngs, for me, has gone backwards, but I think Care is a better player than Dickson, and on form his pass is as good.

Our back-line is slower than erosion and carries almost zero running threat at 9, 10, 12 and 13. I don't think that is good enough. Not a criticism of the individual players, but picked together I think we don't have enough. The Aussies are too savvy to just have it trucked up against them.
Hood83 what do you expect me to say? I would have personally probably had Trinder instead of Tomkins but as Tomkins has been picked I will support him. I certainly won't write him off as not being international class before he's even played!

Dickson is not a Sarries player by the way.

Care in my opinion has proven himself as an excellent club player but for me has never really shown the same form at international level.

I think you're underrating the backline. Okay it doesn't have that much X factor but I think the players are good enough to make decent progress. Surely it's an improvement on the one in the 6 nations?

I have to agree with Beshocked actually. The reason I think Care plays less well for England than for Quins is that Quins use him very differently and basically give him attacking free reign with plays running off him. England don't and he doesn't seem to adapt to a more structured gameplan that well though he seems to be trying to by working on his kicking etc. when he comes on as a sub he always raises the tempo, because the game is inherently less structured by this point

by Geordie Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:56 am

As most suspected...i hope they click as it really does have alot of potential...and finally we have some real deal carriers!!

by butterfingers Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:02 am

The biggest positive for me is the bench, there are still a few inexperienced players in the team, Mako, Youngs, Launchbury, Billy, Dickson, Tomkins, Yarde etc even Twelvetrees and Wood are still pretty inexperienced, but we should be able to compete in every facet, and our bench will certainly step us up a gear come the 60 inute mark.

by ChequeredJersey Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:03 am

It's a much better bench than the average Lancaster bench

by bluestonevedder Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:03 am

Really like the look of this England team. I think the combination of 36 with Yarde and Ashton could be electric. Hopefully 36 finds his passing game early on to unlock the Oz defence. Heck of a bench for the England boys to bring on too, with Attwood and Morgan two real lumps to bring on to face a tired defence.

Can't wait for this match now!

by bluestonevedder Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:04 am

ChequeredJersey wrote:It's a much better bench than the average Lancaster bench

Would be nice to have Paice on the bench to bring on, but we can't have it all! Whistle

by Scrumpy Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:05 am

The only change I would have made is Burns on the bench instead of Flood.

(Not a Flood fan, never have been or will be)

by stub Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:09 am

sirtidychris wrote:i think that backline has a good attacking threat but its in the back three rather than before where it was bascially just give it to Manu. Ashton is in great form , he will be popping up all over the place and with tompkins you have a big lad, great defence, great offload and good distribution, i will expect to see ashton running lines off him all day. With dickson and Twelvetrees we have two very good passers, twelvetrees will be making sure Yarde and Brown will be seeing alot of the ball and dickson will be geting the ball away very quickly, rather than just staring at it for a while which both Youngs and Care frustratingly do from time to time. We have a very Physical 10,12,13 combo all with great defence and all looking to get it wide..the back three will be chomping at the bit as supposed to buying gloves when barritt and tuilagi play.

I think that this is going to be a very close encounter but I feel a lot more optimistic reading this post! It will be interesting to see how the less established players perform. I'm hopeful that twelvetrees will continue to impress and that Dickson will grasp this opportunity to shine. There is lots of pressure on both teams and I really hope that England step up and get this season off to a good start.

by Bathman_in_London Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:09 am

I have to say I don't feel that optimistic, maybe its just the grey weather today or the my lack of sleep due to my baby but I don't see this game being a good one.

If the Telegraph is right, which they seem to be most of the time re. squad selection then I feel there will be a lot of pressure on Tomkins and the wings to come in looking for work and to make things happen. I think Dickinson is a very good scrum half (best EQ passer?) but I feel we will be relying on Ashton off Farrell's shoulder past Quade as I'm not convinced by what I've seen from our 12 or 13 this season.

It will be an interesting battle up front, Mowen is a quality player I think, it will be interesting to see how he handles the additional pressure of being captain. Lawes has been in great form but I hope having 2 athletic locks won't hamper England on what is apparently going to be a wet day. Personally I would have gone for Attwood, look to dominate upfront, get Farrell to kick the goals and then maybe open it up a bit later on.

by Duty281 Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:10 am

ChequeredJersey wrote:England Team: Mike Brown (Harlequins), Chris Ashton (Saracens), Joel Tomkins Saracens), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester), Marland Yarde London Irish), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Lee Dickson (Northampton), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Tom Youngs (Leicester), Dan Cole (Leicester), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton), Tom Wood (Northampton), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, c), Billy Vunipola (Saracens).
Replacements: Dylan Hartley (Northampton), Joe Marler Harlequins), David Wilson (Bath), Dave Attwood Bath), Ben Morgan Gloucester), Ben Youngs (Leicester), Toby Flood (Leicester), Ben Foden (Northampton).

It's a good team

Good side, even taking into account the injuries England have suffered. It's a fantastic bench as well.

England by 10.

by Toadfish Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:25 am

I think that's about as strong a 23 as we could have put out and am pretty happy with it. Might have had a couple of minor changes myself with Foden for Brown and maybe Burrell for 36 on recent form but can't say that both Brown and 36 haven't earned their right to a start.

Bench looks very strong. With the exception of Flood and maybe Cole I don't think many eyebrows would have been raised if they were starters, which is great for competition for places.

I wish we had a 'Fiji' type match first up to have a run out as it's asking a lot to hit the ground running against a battle hardened Aussie team. Think we have 7 or 8 changes from the side that faced Wales (Maybe not a bad thing!) so it's going to take a lot for everything to work first time out.

I want to see some big performances from the likes of Billy Vunipola and Lawes who just seem to have so much potential. I'm also interested to see how Tomkins goes. I have a feeling he is going to go really well but can't say I have a reason to back that up. Just a gut feel!

Without any real standout 'stars' in the team it's going to take a full team performance to deliver. Let’s hope the coaches have them ready!

by jimmyinthewell68 Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:28 am

Im going for an England win . even tho Australia gradually playing better and tend to be up for the AI, i feel England on home soil will pip them early on and will have most procession . England score three tries to one

by Cumbrian Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:29 am

Mostly happy with the team, there are a couple of calls which could be debated (When isn't there?). Agree about the bench, it contains player that could potentially change a game rather than patch up a hole.

by dummy_half Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:46 am

Think it's pretty much the best team we could put out under the circumstances - Corbs and Manu are obviously big losses, and a close call between the scrum halfs.

My one concern is echoing Beshocked - a bit of a lack of X Factor in the midfield backs. We'll be relying on the back 3 to provide the magic as there is little likelihood of either half or centre making a devastating break. To be fair though, Yarde has been outstanding for LI, Ashton has rediscovered some form and Brown is the outstanding all round FB.

Bench is largely good, but we have a bit of an issue if Tomkins gets injured or doesn't fire - I guess Flood to 12 and 12trees to 13, but neither of them are specialists in those positions.

by Portnoy's Complaint Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:47 am

For shure we'll be foine.
Believe!

Gibson

We won't let a few injuries ruin a golden generation.

Interchangeable parts in all positions.
What's not to like?

Well done the clubs and the academies. clap

Cmon Ingerland! rose

by sirtidychris Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:51 am

Alot of people seem to be talking about the Wales game basically rubbishing the players that played that day....yes we got played off the park but i would say that was more about wales playing like men possessed...a chance to beat england, and win the 6 nations....they played with such a crazy intensity...england weren't ready for it. If we put out the same team now it would be a much better performance, that team had the physicality (weight and muscle wise) but not the mental physicality... we got caught napping on the day..just like the all blacks when we beat them.

by ChequeredJersey Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:56 am

Yeah you don't see the kiwis rubbishing McCaw, Carter, Smith, Read etc because they lost to us. But it's much easier for people to utilise hyperbole over reason

by Geordie Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:02 pm

My one concern is echoing Beshocked - a bit of a lack of X Factor in the midfield backs. We'll be relying on the back 3 to provide the magic as there is little likelihood of either half or centre making a devastating break. To be fair though, Yarde has been outstanding for LI, Ashton has rediscovered some form and Brown is the outstanding all round FB.

Maybe the plan is to have the midfield acting as the pivot for the backs and back rows to run off rather than them being the runners themselves?

Although Farrell has shown that is slowly developing a running game (he's made a few decent breaks this season, 36 is not a poor runner, and Tomkins isnt poor either...

I think lets give these guys a chance...we all might be nicely surprised...

by ChequeredJersey Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:04 pm

Maybe, for once, our backline can facilitate each other and be more than the sum of its parts?

by dummy_half Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:11 pm

GF

I'm not suggesting they are poor runners by any means, just that you wouldn't really class any of the four between 9 and 13 as being outstanding ball carriers in the way you would Manu or Youngs/Care.

To be fair though, you'd probably say much the same about the 2003 backline - of the inner backs only really Dawson was likely to make a decisive break, while Greenwood was a fine support player and skilled at getting half through thr defence and off-loading to the supporting runner. The magic mainly came from Robinson.

Oh, and to pick up on a point sirchris made a few comments back - certainly against Wales we were caught out by their intensity on the day, but we also lacked a bit both in ball carrying grunt (e.g. Wood at 8) and aggressive defence that day, which this pack has addressed - Lawes is a much more aggressive defender than Parling, while the Vunipola brothers give a lot more dynamism ball in hand.

by Cumbrian Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:11 pm

I don't know about the lack of X-Factor in the midfield either, Billy Twelvetrees is probably one of the most creative/ expansive (passing wise) inside centres we've had since Will Greenwood. Put it this way, I'd much rather have him than Mike Tindall or Shontayne Hape!

by ChequeredJersey Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:13 pm

Cumbrian wrote:I don't know about the lack of X-Factor in the midfield either, Billy Twelvetrees is probably one of the most creative/ expansive (passing wise) inside centres we've had since Will Greenwood. Put it this way, I'd much rather have him than Mike Tindall or Shontayne Hape!

Faint praise, there

by BamBam Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:15 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:Maybe, for once, our backline can facilitate each other and be more than the sum of its parts?

What a concept

by Cumbrian Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:17 pm

True, but the last time we pumped skippy in 2010 the back line was:

09. Ben Youngs
10. Toby Flood
11. Mark Cueto
12. Shontayne Hape
13. Mike Tindall
14. Chris Ashton
15. Ben Foden

Is our current backline much worse? Are the Aussies that much better? I'd like to see a bit optimism. Very Happy

by WELL-PAST-IT Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:20 pm

bluestonevedder wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:It's a much better bench than the average Lancaster bench
Would be nice to have Paice on the bench to bring on, but we can't have it all!

With Youngs and Foden we have plenty of Paice on the bench

by Cumbrian Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:21 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
bluestonevedder wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:It's a much better bench than the average Lancaster bench
Would be nice to have Paice on the bench to bring on, but we can't have it all!
With Youngs and Foden we have plenty of Paice on the bench

by GloriousEmpire Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:26 pm

Is "we will see where England are at" and "a good test for developing England" just cop outs in games that England, as third ranked team in the world should by right, be instead, confident of winning?

by ChequeredJersey Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:27 pm

Cumbrian wrote:True, but the last time we pumped skippy in 2010 the back line was:

09. Ben Youngs
10. Toby Flood
11. Mark Cueto
12. Shontayne Hape
13. Mike Tindall
14. Chris Ashton
15. Ben Foden

Is our current backline much worse? Are the Aussies that much better? I'd like to see a bit optimism.

I'd say our backline is better, that's an awful centre partnership

by ChequeredJersey Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:27 pm

GloriousEmpire wrote:Is "we will see where England are at" and "a good test for developing England" just cop outs in games that England, as third ranked team in the world should by right, be instead, confident of winning?

I'm confident of winning

by GloriousEmpire Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:29 pm

I can't remember the last time the team management and pundits called that tune...

To me it's bet hedging on failure. To be followed by "we will learn our lessons"

by Geordie Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:35 pm

I'm not suggesting they are poor runners by any means, just that you wouldn't really class any of the four between 9 and 13 as being outstanding ball carriers in the way you would Manu or Youngs/Care.

But how much of Manu have we seen? And certainly Youngs / Care for me are two of the most inconsistant players in the British game. One minute they're outstanding the next they are utterly attrocious.

Maybe a more steady consistant midfield with the razamataz on the flanks is the way forward...

by Taylorman Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:48 pm

How many caps in that back line?

I like 12trees but the rest look raw for such a test. Injuries sure have hit them.

I think playing cooper at vice captain is a shrewd move by ewen Mac. Cooper looks to have stepped up well and looks to be playing with more confidence and less swagger. He is certainly the one to contain this weekend. He was excellent last run in Dunedin. Watch for his trademark wide flat pass...the best in the business.

The England bench seems to look stronger than the run on side and good to see Foden back in the mix.

Given the lightweight English back line and the recent form of oz gotta go with oz but still a close one. Its Oz's match to lose.

by dummy_half Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:55 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:
Cumbrian wrote:True, but the last time we pumped skippy in 2010 the back line was:

09. Ben Youngs
10. Toby Flood
11. Mark Cueto
12. Shontayne Hape
13. Mike Tindall
14. Chris Ashton
15. Ben Foden

Is our current backline much worse? Are the Aussies that much better? I'd like to see a bit optimism.
I'd say our backline is better, that's an awful centre partnership

But not as bad as Tindall and Noon...

by lostinwales Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:00 pm

dummy_half wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:
Cumbrian wrote:True, but the last time we pumped skippy in 2010 the back line was:

09. Ben Youngs
10. Toby Flood
11. Mark Cueto
12. Shontayne Hape
13. Mike Tindall
14. Chris Ashton
15. Ben Foden

Is our current backline much worse? Are the Aussies that much better? I'd like to see a bit optimism.
I'd say our backline is better, that's an awful centre partnership
But not as bad as Tindall and Noon...

Are you saying Hape was better than Noon?

by Cumbrian Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:10 pm

Either way, all that needs to be said is that England have been playing without 'X-Factor' in the centres for years and having 36 in there might actually allow the wide players into the game more.

by thomh Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:12 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Are you saying Hape was better than Noon?

I would say so. Hape for a few games in 2010-2011 actually looked very good.

by Wyldthing Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:17 pm

dummy_half wrote:Think it's pretty much the best team we could put out under the circumstances - Corbs and Manu are obviously big losses, and a close call between the scrum halfs.

My one concern is echoing Beshocked - a bit of a lack of X Factor in the midfield backs. We'll be relying on the back 3 to provide the magic as there is little likelihood of either half or centre making a devastating break. To be fair though, Yarde has been outstanding for LI, Ashton has rediscovered some form and Brown is the outstanding all round FB.

Bench is largely good, but we have a bit of an issue if Tomkins gets injured or doesn't fire - I guess Flood to 12 and 12trees to 13, but neither of them are specialists in those positions.

Does Flood ever play 12 at Tigers? Farrell's had a fair amount of game time there at Sarries I think so that might be better...

by Geordie Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:32 pm

he England bench seems to look stronger than the run on side and good to see Foden back in the mix.

Given the lightweight English back line and the recent form of oz gotta go with oz but still a close one. Its Oz's match to lose

Not sure i agee that the bench is stronger than the run on team? Who is better i your eyes?

Also lightweight backline? Im not seeing that one...

by thomh Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:35 pm

Taylorman wrote:
Given the lightweight English back line and the recent form of oz gotta go with oz but still a close one. Its Oz's match to lose.

Twelvetrees and Tomkins and both big guys, and Farrell and Yarde punch well above their weight. I'm not worried size-wize in the backs - just that we may be one running threat short, especially with Dickson over Youngs.

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