England's backline for the 6N

Many people debating the back the three at the moment, which is unsurprising given the options available, so I thought I'd dedicate a thread to it!

The current players in charge of the shirts from the NZ game are 9.Youngs 10.Farrell 11.Brown 12. Barritt 13.Tuilagi 14.Ashton 15.Goode.

The current EPS players (players in italics were added to the EPS due to injury) are:

SH - Youngs, Care, Dickens
FH - Farrell, Flood, Burns
Centre - Barritt, Allen, Twelvetrees
Outside Centre - Tuilagi, Joseph
Wings - Ashton, Sharples, Monye, Biggs
FB - Goode, Brown, Foden (with Brown and Foden able to play wing as well)

So from this the questions I'm posing are who would you like to see in the EPS and from that squad starting when the 6N kicks off. These selections can be from outside the above named players if you wish of course!

Personally in the EPS I'd like to see:

SH - Youngs, Care, Simpson
FH - Farrell, Flood, Burns
IC - Barritt, Twelvetrees (as a Tigers fan I hate leaving Allen out but I think three 12's in the EPS is excessive and 36/Barritt would be my first choices)
OC - Tuilagi, Joseph
Wing - Ashton, Wade, Sharples
FB - Goode, Brown, Foden

From this who I'd like to see a starting backline of:

9.Youngs
10.Farrell/Flood - Farrell is in charge of the shirt but not playing 10 for Saracens. Wait for him to get game time at 10 then see who's in better form.
11.Foden - Has more pace than Brown so just oust him from the starting line-up
12.Twelvetrees
13.Tuilagi
14.Wade
15.Goode

20.Care 21.Burns 22.Joseph - I'd like Burns on the bench regardless of who starts from Flood/Farrell so he can get some game time. Harsh on Brown I know for him to miss out on the squad but Foden has consistently proven himself to be a quality player for England, and whilst Brown's pace has improved out of sight Foden is still quicker which we have been missing in the back three.

On the wings, for me it's Ashton or Wade at the moment as both have defensive deficiency that I just wouldn't want on both wings. In attack they offer different games as Wade has electric pace and very quick feet whilst Ashton runs clever lines and is very strong in contact. In terms of being in charge of a shirt I'm not one for saying a good game from the team exempts a player from criticism and Ashton has been inconsistent at best in an England shirt for a while now. Even against NZ he knocked the ball on with the line beckoning and vs SA his poor pass to Brown after Tuilagi's intercept butchered a try. I accept if he proves his form with Sarries he's worth a place in the side but at the moment I'd take Wade over him.

Whilst I accept the centre partnership of Barritt/Tuilagi is exceptional defensively, a good break from Barritt (after a terrible mistake from Conrad Smith) doesn't make up for 7 or 8 tests before it in which Englands only real source of inspiration in the midfield was Tuilagi's power. We need some more distribution in the backs which is why I've gone for 36. He's playing really well for Gloucs, has a great passing game which could really bring out the best in Tuilagi and on top of that he has a huge boot that could take pressure of the 9/10 axis when kicking which should hopefully alleviate some of the poor tactical kicking which we still saw through the AI's.

On a side-note I think it's a real shame Johnny May and Simpson-Daniel are both injured at Gloucester as I think May is a huge prospect that could fill the left wing role very well in a season or two if he can stay fit. I know many people criticise posters who still call for JSD despite his injury problems but the guy is so good in attack that I'd still take him over Sharples, Monye, Biggs or Strettle when fit!

I think your logic applied to the 10 shirt should equally apply to the wings. Therefor let Foden prove his form (even at FB). Brown is in great form.
Wade looks sharper than Ashton but would probably be used as impact sub.

Having said that it will be difficult to drop anyone who started the last game unless its through injury or a real form drop. Ashton's place is the most vulnerable.

For the squad - I agree Simpson in for Dickson & Wade for Monye.

If Burns is in the same form as he has been all season he must start...or at least come on at half time. He is class...

Interesting Sarries have said Farrell will be starting a number of games at 10 for them to prepare him for the 6n. I know he has some strengths but Im just not convinced with him yet...

We also need to give some of the pretenders a go...so the likes of Wade, Twelvetrees must get time off the bench.

9 Care
10 Burns / Farrell (Farrell if we are taking the territory route)
11 Brown (Wade off the bench)
12 Barritt (Twelvetrees off the bench)
13 Tuilagi (Joseph off the bench)
14 Ashton
15 Goode

I think they shouldn't play Farrell and Baritt together as both are defensive players offering little in attack so if Farrell starts play 36 at IC or conversely play Burns and leave Baritt in place . The wingers don't matter as they will not see much ball with the Sarries players on the pitch

The wingers don't matter as they will not see much ball with the Sarries players on the pitch.

Well they helped England score nearly 40 points v the AB's...so there's something there...

rosbif wrote:I think they shouldn't play Farrell and Baritt together as both are defensive players offering little in attack

I think after the AI's most players have their shirt firmly strapped on to their backs. This is a fair point, but farrell's distribution was markedly improved as was Baritt's attacking game under the national coaches.

Having Burns on the bench is a definate must though, being bought on for the last quarter to earn your first cap againt the best test team in the world and not flinch. Yeah, that was impressive.

Still, having the choice of 3 fly-halves is a good arguement for any fans to have!

How can you leave out Brown?! He epitomises this new England team. 100% committed, huge work-rate and excellent at the basics. He is a solid foundation which England should build their team around. Whether at the back, on the wing or even at outside centre he really inspires his teammates with his willingness, line breaks and attitude.

Whilst Tom Biggs is another player who I feel could be a real asset to England. He's small, but immensely strong and powerful. He good under the high ball, he tackles hard and is a constant danger to opposition defences with his foot work and pace. Don't get me wrong I rate Wade, but I don't think he is quite ready, give him one more year of premiership experience to help develop his all round game and then he should be given a chance, rather than thrown into the Lions den too early.

Burns is defensively extremely weak. I'd say he's worse than Cipriani. He's very small and although in attack he is sparkling. Better teams will address this weakness. Opta Stats state he has missed more tackles in the premiership this season than any other player. Burns had missed 18 tackles.

Cipriani should not be discounted. I actually think he's been playing pretty well, despite copping a lot of flak for his tackling in the second match against Toulon. In the first match against Toulon he was Sale's best player and against Worcester was the stand out player on the pitch. Sale are a poor team and Cipriani made a silly decision by joining them. Had he joined Bath or Northampton for example, strong teams who lack a decent 10, I feel he may have thrived. Cipriani according to the Opta stats has only missed 5 tackles this season.

I agree with a lot of the points you make King Carlos specifically regarding Twelvetrees and Burns. Regardless of who starts for England come the 6N Burns needs to be getting game time from the bench.

This will be another mini test of Lancaster; outside of injury is he prepared to pick the consistently better players despite them not featuring in his original grand plan?

As regards either 36 or Wade starting the first game against Scotland I would have to err on the side of caution there. Firstly, you don't want to destroy Barritt's confidence having played one of his best games in an England shirt. And whilst I agree his performances have lacked the extra dimension, dropping him at this point would be a mistake.

Currently Goode offers that extra element and width from FB and that should be persisted with. If one was going to try 36 against say Italy, then Brown could be brought in at FB (I have to concede the form FB in the Jeff) to give him a run there.

As far as playing Brown on the wing I don't see it as a long term option and would certainly rather Foden or Abendanon start in that position.

Wade, May and some of the other young chaps will get a good shot on this summer's tour to Argentina and some of them should certainly nail down a position or two themselves from that trip.

robshaw4england wrote:Burns is defensively extremely weak. I'd say he's worse than Cipriani. He's very small and although in attack he is sparkling. Better teams will address this weakness. Opta Stats state he has missed more tackles in the premiership this season than any other player. Burns had missed 18 tackles.

Cipriani should not be discounted. I actually think he's been playing pretty well, despite copping a lot of flak for his tackling in the second match against Toulon. In the first match against Toulon he was Sale's best player and against Worcester was the stand out player on the pitch. Sale are a poor team and Cipriani made a silly decision by joining them. Had he joined Bath or Northampton for example, strong teams who lack a decent 10, I feel he may have thrived. Cipriani according to the Opta stats has only missed 5 tackles this season.

I would contest that Cipriani is a better tackler than Burns. If you actually watch some of the Gloucester games his appetite for tackling is in another league from Danny's. Likewise his attacking play and tactical kicking. Burns is small in stature and will always be liable to big guys running down his channel. The same may be said of Freddie Michalak, George Ford etc... If Burns' tackling was undermining his game and the team we wouldn't see Gloucester where they are in the league today. The benefits of his vision, kicking and passing game far outweigh the fact that he is a target for other teams.

Goode looked so good as a play maker as Farrell and Baritt aren't put in a creative FH or IC then Brown should play FB or Foden. The winger Ashton only scored in the last match due to his predatory instincts and wasn't on the wing

GeordieFalcon wrote:

The wingers don't matter as they will not see much ball with the Sarries players on the pitch.

Well they helped England score nearly 40 points v the AB's...so there's something there...

Till this autumn england were entirely reliant on cheeky scrum halves and charge downs for tries, now theyve added playing teams who are an utter shambles and not defending properly to their options they are an awesome attacking force.
Still the only game the wingers really got in the tries since the world cup group stages was Fiji.

But as stated, who needs wingers anyway?

As for Cipriani...why risk it? Hes been fruity at best for every team hes played for, very up and down in form an attitude. Why bother with that?
England have Flood coming back from injury as a solid all rounder, Burns as the flash new kid who offers everything Cipriani does without the baggage and Farrell who whilst limited has the big game mentality...something not seen form Cipriani since 2008.
And thats without the best performing EQ fly half of the season, Hodgson.

England really arent in a position that they need to be worrying about bringing in a divisive, difficult and risky player.

Peter,

Ive been highly critical of the whole attacking ability of this England team since lancs took over. I have also...and still am highly critical of Owen Farrels (and Barritts) ability to create things...as i have mentioned above infact.

I will still argue however that its not soley at their feet...that in fact the pack has not produced any decent go forward ball etc.

Im a huge fan of Burns...but im concerned that so much expectation will be put on his shoulders and that so many on here seem to only see Farrell and Barritt as the lack of creation.

PS you should also notice that i have been very restrictive in my joy over the AB's victory....

This would be my starting backline:

9. Youngs
10. Farrell
11. Brown
12. Barritt
13. Tuilagi
14. Ashton
15. Foden

Care, Flood and Joseph would be on the bench. There's not a lot in it though, only Tuilagi for me has got his place securely nailed down in the England backline. Exciting times ahead!

PSW - My thoughts exactly. The fact that Barritt made one break due to a very poor error from Conrad Smith doesn't erase memories of the lack of penetration in the centres that came for half a dozen games beforehand. I agree the guy is an exceptional defender and more than worthy of his place in the EPS but 36 offers a much more rounded game going forward. Also when Tuilagi's our best attacking threat we need to utilise him which 36's passing game can do, as well as bringing the wings into play.

The NZ game was a great performance by England but if you look at the AI's as a whole the backs struggled for any penetration against SA and Aus whilst the forwards were very good. Those very impressive forward displays are what I want to see rewarded with the pack staying exactly the same vs Scotland (dependent on injury of-course).

On the FB issue between Brown and Goode (as I have Foden on the wing) I was completely cut between them as I'm a huge fan of Brown but Goode looked a class act throughout the AI's. With 36 at IC in my preferred line-up Goode's ability as a second playmaker isn't as vital so I would very happily see either in the side.

It's great to have two guys like Brown/Goode competing alongside Foden though as they a 3 quality players who should push each other on.

Where was the great forward performances though King C.

I accept the backs have been impotent in attack...but who in the whole England pack has made hard yards...pulled in defenders and given the backs a little space to try things.

Robshaw was taking the ball standing still for gods sake.

Ill say again...im not a fan of Farrell (or Flood for that mattter who has shown no better attacking play under this regime )...but to blame him and Barritt totally for the whole teams lack of flair is missing the whole picture.

Geordie

I agree completely that some big forward carries were still missing but the carrying as a whole definitely improved IMO. Youngs, Launchberry and Parling all put in good shifts in the SA and NZ games especially. Morgan was good in parts but inconsistent - unfortunately with remaining fitness issues that's currently the case with Big Ben though.

I wouldn't even want to argue the point on Robshaws carrying though. Everytime he offered himself it was clear he was attempting to be a second distributor to change the point of attack. Problem is if he's standing still both himself and however recieves the ball from him are screwed against any half decent defence - had me pulling my hair out at one point!

It will be interesting too see who get the 10 shirt in the 6ns. I am not a fan of the likes of Flood walking straight back into the 10 spot, just because he was first choice before he got injured.

Also i think that next EPS will see the likes of Twelvetrees, Wade, and maybe others like May, Trinder, Biggs, come in in the back line. And others like Garvey, Atwood in the pack.

majesticimperialman wrote:It will be interesting too see who get the 10 shirt in the 6ns. I am not a fan of the likes of Flood walking straight back into the 10 spot, just because he was first choice before he got injured.

Also i think that next EPS will see the likes of Twelvetrees, Wade, and maybe others like May, Trinder, Biggs, come in in the back line. And others like Garvey, Atwood in the pack.

Assuming we don't see anymore injuries I'd expect Lancaster to go with:

Corbs, Marler, Hartley, Youngs, Cole, Wilson, Parling, Launchberry, Lawes, Palmer, Wood, Haskell, Croft, Robshaw, Morgan, Waldrom
Youngs, Care, Dickens, Flood, Farrell, Burns, Barritt, Twelvetrees, Tuilagi, Joseph, Ashton, Sharples, Monye, Foden, Brown, Goode

I can't see SL going for two many changes - even from that I'd question whether Croft will replace Johnson unless he shows some very good form on his return. From that squad I'd replace Dickens with Simpson, Monye with Wade and Waldrom with Vunipola. To be fair to SL I criticise his selection but when I look at how few changes I'd like to see there compared to some of the ridiculous selections we've seen in the last few years it really isn't that bad!

Earlier posts suggesting Wade on the bench probably won't be considered by the coaches. Wade only covers one position (wing).

If Goode stays at 15 and Brown on the wing, then you have to have Foden on the bench from those avalable.

At the moment both Goode and Brown are giving England some go forward from the back, simply because they run at space and keep defences guessing.

A back line of
Brown
Goode
Foden

Drop Ashton to the bench. This 3 gives England all the attacking flair and defensive capability required.

Does anyone know when the next EPS is due to be announced?

Lets just do away with wingers all together...E4E

BamBam - I can't find an exact date anywhere (not that I've had long to look), it's usually in advance of the pre 6N training camps though. Anytime in the next couple of weeks I'd expect.

I think its either the 7th or 9th Jan!
At least thats the date the changes to the EPS are announced.
A completely new EPS isnt chosen till after the 6N I think.

Back on topic though -
I think that Lancaster will pretty much start an unchanged side - barring injury or amazing drop in form.

The comparisons of Burns vs Cipriani are unfair as Cipriani has played half the number of game of Burns.

Farrell will start against Scots, Burns to come on and change the game in the last 60mins, would be nice if Foden and Joseph could all come off the bench as gamechangers.

If youngs shows form consstency then he starts, if not then Care comes in and Youngs to the bench.

Pack pretty much to stay the same - unless Billy Vaunipola is drafted in suddenly. Haskell may well come in at somepoint but will likely be on the bench after Robshaw and Woods NZ performances.

Agree with that Propdavid, although I don't think we'll see Billy V in the EPS for another season at least. He'd be a good one to take on the Argentina tour though.

The backs that England should play (but won't with Lancaster in charge thank God)

Simpson
Burns
Wade
Twelve Trees
Tuilagi
Ashton
Goode

after the way his brother took to international rugby like a duck to shotgun pellets Id be happy to give him a while longer before getting a senior cap.
If Fatty Morgan keeps working on his fitness him and Waldrom the Hutt offer pretty much the same to the squad, with Haskell another option. I dont see much point in Dowson though.
Arguably the best two (short term) options available are Joubert and Easter, but neither will get picked


BV may be an Argentina option, that depends on who requires rest and who gets on the Lions tour though

And i sincelrely hope Joubert doesnt....

Well looks like Flood will be cited for an ugly spear tackle (he should of thought better of trying to pick fatty Goode up). I think he'll get an 8 game ban which of course would harm his England chances.

Doubt it. 12 weeks halved for good behaviour previously and another week knocked off for admission of guilt. 5 weeks should see him back in time though he didn't play well tonight.

Given Lancaster was there to watch flood play badly even if he isn't banned for the start of the 6 nation's there's every chance he woot be picked. Saracens have said they are going to play of at oh ...so if he does ok it will make the decision for Lancaster. You could colour me amazed if he picks burns as a starter unless Farrell is out
As things stand I see no reason why he'd be pushed into changing the backline from the callbacks game.....even if we still have some doubts over it

dragonbreath wrote:The backs that England should play (but won't with Lancaster in charge thank God)

Simpson
Burns
Wade
Twelve Trees
Tuilagi
Ashton
Goode

Have you watched Simpson try to do anything other than run? Can be a gamebreaker off the bench, not near Care or Youngs in overall quality

If all were fit and firing I'd choose

9- Care
10- Flood/Burns
11- JSD
12- 36
13- Manu
14- Foden
15- Brown/Goode

However it'll end up with Barritt at 12, Ashton instead of JSD, and Goode over Brown

Could do Flood's chances for an England place some serious damage though, he's struggled since the AI's to put together any consistent performances with Leicester due to injuries and poor form.

Could well see the 6N's start with Farrel in the 10 shirt and Burns on the bench.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

dragonbreath wrote:The backs that England should play (but won't with Lancaster in charge thank God)

Simpson
Burns
Wade
Twelve Trees
Tuilagi
Ashton
Goode

Have you watched Simpson try to do anything other than run? Can be a gamebreaker off the bench, not near Care or Youngs in overall quality

Haven't even seen Simpson run this season. He just seems to ship average passes to the players around him.

Looseheaded wrote:If all were fit and firing I'd choose

9- Care
10- Flood/Burns
11- JSD
12- 36
13- Manu
14- Foden
15- Brown/Goode

However it'll end up with Barritt at 12, Ashton instead of JSD, and Goode over Brown

Other than Youngs for Care and JSD/Foden switching wings that is exactly my thoughts. It's such a shame that JSD and Johnny May at Gloucs are injured as they're two guys who could add a huge amount to the squad IMO. Even with my fixation on May getting a go it'd be a struggle to get him in the squad.

With Foden, Brown, Goode and Ashton pretty much nailed on (though I wouldn't start Ashton I would keep him in the squad) you've only got 2 places left for wingers. I'd love to have Wade/JSD as the other 2 wingers in the squad which leaves May in the Saxons.

We have lots of talented options though it's just finding the right balance. From what we've seen on Lancaster's selection I'd say he wants one wing who is very solid in defence/under the high ball and one who finishes.

Full Backs - Goode, Brown, Foden, Abendanon, Miller, Tait

Winger/Full Backs - Foden, Brown, Johnny May

Finishers - Ahston, Wade, Monye, Sharples, Biggs, JSD, Strettle, Benjamin

The thing I like about May is that alongside being solid in defence and under the high ball he is very fast. Likewise the thing I like about JSD is that when you look at all the wing options I'd say only him and Wade are the guys who can finish a try well but also create one with a bit of magic. The likes of Ashton, Monye, Sharples and Biggs are very fast and strong but don't have the lightning feet of Wade or guile of JSD. With the two gloucs boys injured (never mind Lancaster's selection traits) this is all theoretical unfortunately!

May also has x factor, he has that undefinable confidence to back himself and make things happen. I can see him being someone the opposition would really dislike (and dislike playing against).

Too often in the past we have had earnest guys like Cueto, Botha and Noon who will give their all but will ultimately slip quietly to defeat. Now we seem to be getting guys like Tuilagi, Youngs and May who aren't afraid of the opposition and relish the idea of getting stuck into them. See Tuilagi's face during the Haka as an example of what I mean. For wont of a better phrase we now have guys who 'look up' for the challenge.

Completely agree on May being very dangerous in attack. His core skills from playing wing, FB and a bit of centre are very good, add to that his natural speed/agility and the fact he's playing in a backline that will allow him to adapt at Gloucs - all things considered he's a huge prospect as a winger IMO. I just hope he gets past his injury woes.

I'd also agree that the current side seems to have a fight and aggression in them that we seemed to be lacking for whatever reasons in the last few years.

With the EPS now announced the backs are pretty much as people were expecting with one shock in the wingers as Strettle gets selected ahead of Wade/Varndell who many were hoping for. With Lancaster's loyalty it was unlikely for Wade to leapfrog those in the Saxons however.

Backs: C Ashton (Saracens), B Barritt (Saracens), M Brown (Harlequins), F Burns (Gloucester Rugby), D Care (Harlequins), L Dickson (Northampton Saints), O Farrell (Saracens), T Flood (Leicester Tigers), B Foden (Northampton Saints), A Goode (Saracens), J Joseph (London Irish), D Strettle (Saracens), M Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), B Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby), B Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

From these I'd go for:

9.Youngs
10.Farrell
11.Foden
12.Twelvetrees
13.Tuilagi
14.Strettle
15.Brown

20.Care 21.Burns 22.Joseph

That may seem harsh on Goode but as I'd select 36 in the centres his ability as a second playmaker isn't vital. After that Brown is really the better FB in my opinion, not a criticism of Goode just MB is now exceptional under the high ball, very good in defence/kicking and much improved with ball in hand.

Goods has been out injured and will miss the Scotland game according to media reports.

king_carlos wrote:With the EPS now announced the backs are pretty much as people were expecting with one shock in the wingers as Strettle gets selected ahead of Wade/Varndell who many were hoping for. With Lancaster's loyalty it was unlikely for Wade to leapfrog those in the Saxons however.

Backs: C Ashton (Saracens), B Barritt (Saracens), M Brown (Harlequins), F Burns (Gloucester Rugby), D Care (Harlequins), L Dickson (Northampton Saints), O Farrell (Saracens), T Flood (Leicester Tigers), B Foden (Northampton Saints), A Goode (Saracens), J Joseph (London Irish), D Strettle (Saracens), M Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), B Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby), B Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

From these I'd go for:

9.Youngs
10.Farrell
11.Foden
12.Twelvetrees
13.Tuilagi
14.Strettle
15.Brown

20.Care 21.Burns 22.Joseph

That may seem harsh on Goode but as I'd select 36 in the centres his ability as a second playmaker isn't vital. After that Brown is really the better FB in my opinion, not a criticism of Goode just MB is now exceptional under the high ball, very good in defence/kicking and much improved with ball in hand.

I'd prefer Joseph on the wing before Strettle! Otherwise I think that's a good backline

Joseph got a hell of case for himself with his power and step that's for sure! In fairness to Strettle he's a very balanced runner with serious pace himself though. When I've seen him play recently I've thought his defence has improved at Sarries, it'll just be interesting to see if he's still got the same spark in attack.

Let's face it Sarries are doing well at the moment (for the last few seasons in fact) but they've got a very limited game plan and that can lead to limited players - Farrell and Barritt a case in point!

robshaw4england wrote:Burns is defensively extremely weak. I'd say he's worse than Cipriani. He's very small and although in attack he is sparkling. Better teams will address this weakness. Opta Stats state he has missed more tackles in the premiership this season than any other player. Burns had missed 18 tackles.

Cipriani should not be discounted. I actually think he's been playing pretty well, despite copping a lot of flak for his tackling in the second match against Toulon. In the first match against Toulon he was Sale's best player and against Worcester was the stand out player on the pitch. Sale are a poor team and Cipriani made a silly decision by joining them. Had he joined Bath or Northampton for example, strong teams who lack a decent 10, I feel he may have thrived. Cipriani according to the Opta stats has only missed 5 tackles this season.

I think that's reading too much into stats without actually taking any context. He doesn't bring a weakness to the defensive allignment for Glaws and a number of those tackles missed have been cover tackles/tap tackles that only his pace got him in a position to even attempt the tackle. He doesn't ever shirk a tackle, but his only negative is that he on occasion goes too high in the tackle. I would put him in a different league to Cipriani despite what the stats say; watching him on the pitch proves otherwise.

Burns has also started and played in more games at 10 then probably any other flyhalf in the league.

Given the players at Englands disposal surely they must play a mix of types - not all the stodge of recent years especially in the centre. I have not seen twelvetrees play but is he the answer as a creative centre? England have some very good wingers - use them! You need a creative centre to do so do you not? ( assuming a creative 10 of course)


This looks good to me - pace to burn and a bit of creativity.
9.Youngs
10.Farrell
11.Foden
12.Twelvetrees
13.Tuilagi
14.Strettle
15.Brown