england backline

I think england need to pick backline of pace and creativity. At half back we need to get balance right do we go with youngs,flood or more pacey option in simpson,burns. In midfield looks like it going to be barritt,tuilagi or tuilagi,joseph but this burrell looks to have the lot but it early days. The back three could be ashton,wade,brown but lancaster might go for monye ahead of wade which is stupid even varndell should be ahead of monye.what do you think?.

The backs will be:

9 Care
10 Flood
11 ? Probably Monye
12 Barritt
13 Tuilagi
14 Ashton
15 Brown

Simpson has had a good start to the season, but I am yet to be convinced he'll ever be international class. He's a fast player, but his distribution is poor. I just can't see SL experimenting at all with the backline.

GeordieFalcon wrote:The backs will be:

9 Care
10 Flood
11 ? Probably Monye
12 Barritt
13 Tuilagi
14 Ashton
15 Brown

We will learn nothing new from that, but probably right.

We need to see how the team goes again Fiji in an attacking sense.

In SA we had Farrell at 10...and a worryingly low carry rate from the forwards...certainly with any great distinction.

It is imperative for the likes of Marler, Morgan, Fearns or Johnson(whoever is picked at 6) to really get on the front foot, make ground and suck defenders in.

Then we can see how Barritt and Tuilagi will go with Flood calling the shots...Ashton running his lines off the forwards and centres shoulders etc.

I have said before Burns has impressed me this season...but is he quite ready for Australia, SA and NZ? Im not sure yet. Similar to Twelvtrees.

Allen is not who i want at 12...and whilst Tuilagi could eventually move in to that 12 spot..its not yet. So we are stuck for players.

The problem is im not convinced or confident that we'll get this hard ball carying game from our forwards.

Youngs
Flood
Monye
Twelvetrees
Tuilagi
Ashton
Brown

21. Care 22. Burns 23. Goode/May/Joseph

I'd love that backline to get a run out.

Surely this time Yappy we should leave Ben Youngs alone to just get on with recovery and playing for the Tigers.

We have Care, Simpson and a few others for these AI's.

ALso, interesting that you'd go for Twelvetrees. Whilst he is undoubtedly playing far better with regular games...is he ready for international rugby?

Backs in the EPS:

Lee Dickson
Danny Care
Ben Youngs

Owen Farrell
Toby Flood

Anthony Allen
Brad Barritt
Jordan Turner-Hall
Manu Tuilagi
Jonathan Joseph

Chris Ashton
Ben Foden (Injured)
Charlie Sharples (Injured?)

Mike Brown
Alex Goode

The thing that leaps about that is that there is only actually two wingers in there! Is Sharples injured too? How's his form been?


Backs in the Saxons:

Joe Simpson
Richard Wigglesworth

George Ford
Freddie Burns

George Lowe (injured)
Billy Twelvetrees

Miles Benjamin (injured)
Jonny May (injured?)
Tom Biggs
Ugo Monye
David Strettle
Christian Wade

Nick Abendanon
Rob Miller

Care
Flood
Bigs
Tualagi
Barret
Ashton
Brown

I think that will be the team for the Fiji Game.

YOu can swap and change though cant you Cumbrian...especially with no Saxons games pencilled in.

GeordieFalcon wrote:YOu can swap and change though cant you Cumbrian...especially with no Saxons games pencilled in.

How does it work? Can they chop and change between the EPS and the Saxons as much as they want? Or is it only through injury dispensation. Or is the injury dispensation stuff only for brining people outside of both squads? I must admit I've always been a little confused by it.

I think they pretty much can for injuries etc...not exactly sure...but we can use either squad.

It seems bloody daft if we cant pick any platyer in the country to play for England...

All the EPS determines is who the RFU has guaranteed access to (and the right to demand that they are rested). The Saxons players, IIRC, are released to the RFU for fewer weeks.

They could pick any EQP they liked, even, say Jonny or Steffon, but only if their club releases them.

The trick, which MJ learned very quickly, is that you can promote anyone you like to the Saxons, and swap them into the EPS at short notice if someone is injured. I think pretty much all the EPS squads have started out with a couple of players on the sick list, and I think it's a deliberate tactic to give flexibility later on.

My preference would be:

9 Care
10 Flood
11 May
12 Barritt
13 Tuilagi
14 Ashton
15 Brown

21 Youngs
22 Burns
23 Joseph


I'd be tempted to start Burns against Fiji, but think Flood will be the better option against the top 3 team challenges that follow (even if Burns had a great debut, throwing him into a SANZAR cauldron is pushing the boat on best player management early in his career), so better to back Flood and hopefully get him firing at international level by Australia, giving Burns 30mins from the bench as a decent blooding.

No standouts for the 11 shirt, almost no difference between a number of players, each with their own positives & negatives. With the best 15 options, Brown & Goode, both being pretty much FBs only, I don't think it's best practice to have one on the bench if starting the other (betting on one player getting injured over the other four), so I went with an 11 who can cover 15 if need be, and Joseph on the bench covering centre & wing.

I think balancing reality and wishes this could be a good backline

9 Care
10 Flood
11 Joseph
12 Barritt
13 Tuilagi
14 Ashton
15 Brown/Goode

21 L Dickson
22 Burns
23 Goode/Brown

I would like to see Burns get a fair bit of game time, but think it is unrealistic that he starts ahead of Flood at the moment.

Barritt is the steady choice, we know his defence is top notch at least and that would be good to have with Burns coming on for his first cap. I am still watching Burrell who seems to have loads of potential (just see some of his offloading), but it is very early days. 36 is also another to watch.

I think with JJ on the wing and Manu OC we have great attacking potential and lots of option to vary that attack and line up.

Would be good to end Fiji with:

9. Care
10. Burns
11. May
12. 36
13. Tuilagi
14. Wade
15. Brown

With a view to bring these lads in.

Sharples is fit to play tonight in the Amlin, so has a few weeks to impress and is currently in the EPS, lest we forget.

I would happy with any of these selections:

9. Care
10. Burns
11. Wade/Monye
12.Barritt/Twelvetrees
13.Tuilagi/Joseph
14.Ashton
15.Goode/Brown

I think he'll go with:

9. Youngs
10. Flood

11. Monye
12. Barritt
13. Tuilagi
14. Ashton
15. Goode

I just think we need to stay away from Ben Youngs this Autumn.

The guys form has been up and down due to not being given enough time to recover from injuries and find his feet with his club.

Lets give him the time in this case to let him get back to his best.

Care is playing well...Simpson, whilst i think he can improve his passing..is a different prospect with his attacking pace...and we have Dickson, and a few others....

Also,

Lets not be so quick to throw out Barritt. I wasnt a big fan of his coming in to the England setup...but now he is...he has been possibly Englands most consistant and best players. He has litterally been a brick wall.
England as a team have played NO attacking game so far under SL so to put the whole thing at the foot of Barritt is VERY harsh. Lets see what he can do with more ball carrying from the forwards and a 10 who can actually pass and start attacks.
IF he cant do it then....we look at alternatives...

If Youngs is fit and playing I imagine he'll be starting GF. I think Care is quality but Youngs has that extra gear he can hit and we'll need him to challenge the SH.

I wouldn't have Simpson anywhere near any form of England shirt, not even a Saxons. His basics are dire, I'd much prefer somebody like Robson given a taste at Saxons level.

Your probably right about Youngs starting...but i just think we're constantly rushing him - and never seeing the best of him. Care is a quality scrum half.

Simpsons passing is attrocious as SH's go...i completely agree with you. However he is electric with his running and pace..so i would consider him if we were short of SH's starting for their club.

But yes if others were to put there hand up like Robson...or once he's fit Pilgrim then they should be looked at.

Haha...Pilgram should be starting tbh, so unlucky with injuries.

I really like the look of Robson, think he's better than Simpson already personally who just looks like a winger playing SH.

think he's better than Simpson already personally who just looks like a winger playing SH..

you have a point

Agree about Care.

I have plenty to say about Youngs but I'll keep it short this time - on his day Youngs is very good but lacks consistency in my opinion.

As Geordiefalcon says I think Youngs needs to be allowed to bed back in at Leicester. When he's got some form and consistency back, he should be brought back into the England squad.

He's had another quite bad injury throwing him back in England will probably lead to yet another poor England performance.

"He's had another quite bad injury throwing him back in England will probably lead to yet another poor England performance."

So if Youngs starts, England will probably play badly? Don't really understand this tbh

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Haha...Pilgram should be starting tbh, so unlucky with injuries.

I really like the look of Robson, think he's better than Simpson already personally who just looks like a winger playing SH.

I was really critical of Robson when he played for the U20's last year. At the time he seemed like a poor man's Joe Simpson and I found myself lamenting on his lack of basic skills. He really seems like he has gone away and worked on this and the basics of scrum half play and I have been impressed with him so far this season. You can tell he used to be a fly half because he offers a really useful clearing kicking option too.

Could be worth a Saxons place sometime soon.

How's Barritt's distribution? I haven't seen too much of him and I think that midfield distribution has been England's critical weakness for a fair while now.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:"He's had another quite bad injury throwing him back in England will probably lead to yet another poor England performance."

So if Youngs starts, England will probably play badly? Don't really understand this tbh

I meant that Youngs would put in a another poor performance for England. Of course as a scrum half it would have an impact on England's performance too.

So if Youngs starts he's going to play badly?

The games I've seen Youngs play badly for England are generally when Farrell plays 10. As long as we keep Farrell as far away as possible from Twickers I think he'll be ok.

Sgt Pooly typical Youngs sympathiser. I knew the blame Farrell card was going to be played. It's never Youngs' fault.

If Youngs has a bad game there is always an excuse. 4 poor games is alright as long as he has one good cameo interspersed in the mire.

The 9 passes the ball to the 10. Not the other way round btw. Just to clarify. You could argue it's Young's form which made Farrell stutter. They don't suit each other because they have different styles.

Youngs performed badly with Wilkinson at fly half in the RWC too. Always the 10's fault isn't it?

Youngs seems to only perform with Flood.

England need a scrum half who can adapt and actually play with other players who aren't his team mate.

And so the true underlying tones of your original post finally come through regarding Youngs.

I think Youngs is a crackin player...and him and Care are the two stand out options for England at the moment.

Youngs has been inconsistent for a long time now...but in my opinion this is down to a list of injury problems.
Now the problem is after just getting over the injuries he is slung straight back in the England starting lineup with no chance of just getting to grips with playing Prem rugby again....and personally International Rguby is not the place to recupperate or "find your form"

He hasnt helped having Farrell outside him...BUT thats not my argument....as Beshocked says...players should adapt to who they are playing with.

Leave Youngs at Welford Road and Start Care in every AI.

What true undertones sgt pooly? I give a logical reason why Care should be favoured over Youngs.

Geordiefalcon I absolutely agree.

As it stands Youngs is injured anyway.

Tigers fans have said it's not Young's fault he's playing badly it's injuries.

If that's the case then leave him at Leicester to show some form and get past his injury in an environment he is comfortable in.

He'll be able to play with Flood and rebuild his confidence and form.

IMO Youngs and Flood are a double act. You either play them both or neither.

Care and Burns would be my choice at the moment.

Youngs isn't injured.

Youngs doesn't need Flood, he just needs a 10 who doesn't sit 20yrds behind the line and then kicks the ball 90% of the time.

Care and Burns would be my choice at the moment..

Certainly Care.
I have been hugely impressed with Burns this season - his alround game and game mamangement.

Do you think he's ready to be thrown in against the likes of Aus, SA and NZ...or would that just be for the Fiji game?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Youngs isn't injured.

Youngs doesn't need Flood, he just needs a 10 who doesn't sit 20yrds behind the line and then kicks the ball 90% of the time.

I agree that Farrell didnt help matters Sarge.

I think even Beshocked would agree that the Farrell experiement needs to be postponed temporarily until he works on a few aspects of his game....and certainly whilst the likes of Burns etc are playing so well.

When is the Fiji game by the way....whats the actual date.
Edit: 10th November , 14.30
So players realistically have 2/3 weeks to impress now...

It doesn't help the no 10 if the 9 to be playing badly either.

Awful box kicks,sluggish play and poor passing is what Youngs contributed in the 6 nations bar a good cameo against Ireland when he had a armchair ride from the pack who had so demoralised the Irish that he could do what he wanted. Ditto his only good performance in the world cup vs Argentina.

Yes GeordieFalcon I agree. Being a good place kicker and strong defence can only get you so far. It can win you trophies but only if your pack is very strong.

Hush your noise Beshocked, it does get quite tedious some times when you repeat the same statement for 999th time.

Anyway, unless Youngs is amazing during the next two HC rounds I do not believe he should even be considered. even then, I would want to see more from him. While his last England appearance was very, very good against SA - the same can be said for Care in the following test, while Lee Dickson has been the best SH in the AP this season.


My only worry about Dickson is that while he looks sharp for Saints and maintains a high tempo, in his appearances for England he has demonstrated exactly the same dithering and poor box kicks as Youngs did in the first two 6Ns games. god help us perhaps that was the game plan.

LondonTiger it's because I hear the same arguments too.

Ultimately I think it depends who Lancaster picks at 10.

If he picks Farrell (btw I wouldn't) go with Dickson.

Care with Burns.

Youngs with Flood.

Maybe Care with Flood could work too.

From my memory of the matches Dickson played in he seemed to have two modes. One going backwards which was dither mode or I suspect under instruction to give his defence time to regroup and make sure he is protected at the ruck before kicking. One going forwards where I thought he was his more his usual Saints self.

I think you could see all scrum halves under the same instruction but Dickson took it to extreme.

The problem is the box kick is most effective against a team out of alignment. Giving them time to prepare for it makes a "good" box kick almost impossible, so I think a lot of the "poor" box kicking was a reflection of this.

Anyway I agree with the sentiments above about leaving Youngs at home for a while.

A lot of people touting Freddie Burns here and that can only be a good thing for England in the long run, i'd like to see him start against Fiji. I think we'll get a good insight into what Lancaster is about this Autumn with his selections.

In reality I don't think he'll even look at Burns. I was very disappointed with the EPS selection back in the summer and the replacements Lancs calls up will be interesting.

I think we'll see one of Monye or Strettle (heaven forbid) called in to the wing spot. At hooker I expect Joe Gray to come in if he's not injured, purely for his dependable line-out throwing. I also think we'll see a No.1 side head out against Fiji to give them a run with no experimentation such as Burns.

My picks would be: 9. D Care 10. F Burns 11. N Abendanon 12. B Barrit 13. M Tuilagi 14. C Ashton 15. A Goode

21. B Youngs 22. T Flood 23. J Joseph

Lancaster's I think will be:

9. D Care
10. T Flood
11. U Monye
12. B Barritt
13. M Tuilagi
14. C Ashton
15. M Brown

21. B Youngs 22. O Farrell 23. J Turner-Hall

I don't see Youngs being left at Tigers. Whilst it's a nice idea to rest him for a minute, we'll need all the talent we've got for these AI's and I don't think it's asking too much of a capped international to be ready with 7 to 8 weeks prep time.

If fit the wing spot will go to sharples.he is in .eps and would of played in .SA if he was fit.monye and strettle should be forgotten about,neither are test class now due to past injuries.time to look towards developing may,wade,Benjamin etc

Dont think you can really say Monye is not test class.

He's had some very strong powerful games for England...and i still believe if used right he could still be a very good player.

Chjw
My thoughts would be...if the talent is only playing at half speed and off form...whats the point? Play someone fit and on form.

Yes Wendy you're probably right, but i'm assuming Monye/Strettle will be Lancs selection.

Abendanon would be the canny selection if you ask me. Similar skill set to Foden, great under the high ball and a real quality player in attack. He beats Monye and May to it for my money.

Gentlemen,

I can certainly see why there is so much debate and contention on these boards when we have our online England selection meetings. I believe that have the most registered players out of any nation on the planet. I will be promptly corrected if I am wrong about that no doubt.

We are blessed with an abundance of backline players.

Players who lack the most fundamental of rugby skills in running, passing and the the draw and pass. Players who lack vision in terms of spotting and exploiting overlaps. Players who are not managed properly in terms of playing load and injury. Players who, while being good at one particular aspect of our beloved game are less than good or worse at one or more other essentials.

Tuilagi can run and tackle but not pass. Farrell can tackle and kick but he cant pass. Wade can run and jink but cant tackle. Monye can wing but not fullback. Brown can play fullback but not wing. Ditto Goode. You get the drift. There is one exception to all of this ( well apart from the injury part anyway) , he is still doing it at AP level but England have not picked him in a decade: dear old James Simpson-Daniel. His time is passed now I suppose. Sigh.

So, as the Autumn International iceberg draws near, where were we with those deckchairs again?

JSD can run, pass but can't tackle.....

Tri you're such a romanticist! Expecting the full package from our backline players is like expecting a revival in Real Tennis.

JSD is a wonderful player, but even I would have to admit that his defensive positioning can be called into question some times. Particularly at the higher levels. He CAN tackle however.

Why do Brown and Goode have to be able to play on the wing? Why does Monye need to be a decent full back?

Surely you just pick players in their best position?