Wales vs South Africa match buildup.

First topic message reminder :

OK boys, this weekend Wales and South Africa will both attempt to begin their Autumn Internationals with a win.

Both teams for different reasons.

Wales will want to build on their Six Nations form of the last two years, they will want to confirm to themselves that the British and Irish Lions tour was won because of their players, and they will want to progress from being Northern Hemisphere kings, to a team that has the ability to beat South Africa, New Zealand and Australia.

In my view, and possibly in the view of their supporters the time is now, it has been a while since Wales has been so dominant in Europe, the only thing missing before they can call themselves world beaters is to take the next step.

How much of it is mental, how much of it is due to the fact that they struggle to put 80 minute performances together I cannot be certain of, but what I do know is they have the ability, sadly it seems Cuthbert and Roberts will not be part of what I deem as the most talented and dangerous backline in Europe. For two reasons I might add, it is the most settled back line in Europe, and also very experienced.

Since the World Cup in 2011, Wales have won 9 of their 10 Six Nations matches, undoubtedly a very good record, however their problem was the seven match losing streak in between the two Six Nations.

South Africa on the other hand, has a new coach, been there for near two full seasons and he has made a difference.

Still not yet consistent, the concern is always how will Meyer ensure that the springboks perform on a consistent basis. In the past 18 months under Heyneke Meyer the boks had their fair share of poor games.

Last year out of the twelve test matches played the springboks managed to win 7 tests, drew 2 and lost three.

Although the three tests they lost were against New Zealand (twice) and Australia, there were a number of other performances that were not up to par. England in the third test at home, Argentina in Mendoza and New Zealand at home, those were poor performances by South Africa.

Although they went through the Autumn internationals unbeaten the were less than convincing.

I suppose the positive out of the performances were even when they played poorly, they managed to be on the right side of the scoreboard most of the time.

Although South Africa has shown improvement this year, the consistency is still under question.

The one aspect of their game that has improved immeasurably is their positive approach to attacking play, looking at the number of tries scored this year in comparison to last year it makes for astounding reading, in 2012 during 12 matches South Africa managed only 23 tries, conceding 16. This year in 9 tests they have managed 39 tries, conceding 18 tries.

Only New Zealand have managed to score regular tries against SA, totalling 15 tries in the last two years, the rest of their opponents only managed 19 tries in 17 matches.

Wales during 2012 managed to score 20 tries in conceding 17 in their 13 matches. During 2013 in their seven tests to date, they managed 11 tries, conceding 7.

If South Africa continues with their positive approach  to attacking plays I believe Wales will be hard pressed, their defence will have to be up to par, there is no doubt Wales will have a positive approach to the game, so from that perspective it should be an entertaining match.

There are some questions over the selections Meyer will make, will he bring Jaque Fourie, JP Pietersen and Bakkies Botha in for the first tour match, which would add significantly to the experience of the team, or will he give debutant Pieter Steph du Toit his first cap?

Of course Willie le Roux and JJ Engelbrecht may yet be inexperienced, but in my view it would be unfair to summarily dismiss them in favour of the old hands.

Wales have a few selection issues as well, who will replace Cuthbert and Roberts, and the ultimate question, will Phillips’ disciplinary record affect his chances for selection?

I still wonder who is the best fly half in Wales.

Come what may, this match should be a tough encounter, will SA prove they have made the step up and show consistency, or will Wales make the next leap towards world domination?

Springbok team for Wales.

The Springbok team to face Wales in Cardiff is:

15. Pat Lambie 29 caps 55 points
14. JP Pietersen 48 caps 70 points
13. Jaque Fourie 69 caps 160 points
12. Jean de Villiers (captain) 93 caps 120 points
11. Bryan Habana 92 caps 265 points
10. Morné Steyn 51 caps 618 points
9. Fourie du Preez 65 caps 70 points
8. Duane Vermeulen 13 caps 5 points
7. Willem Alberts 27 caps 30 points
6. Francois Louw 25 caps 25 points
5. Flip van der Merwe 31 caps 5 points
4. Eben Etzebeth 20 caps 0 points
3. Frans Malberhe 0 caps 0 points
2. Bismarck du Plessis (v-captain) 54 caps 40 points
1. Tendai Mtawarira 50 caps 10 points
Replacements:
16. Adriaan Strauss 30 caps 25 points
17. Gurthrö Steenkamp 46 caps 30 points
18. Coenie Oosthuizen 11 caps 5 points
19. Pieter-Steph du Toit 0 caps 0 points
20. Siya Kolisi 8 caps 0 points
21. Ruan Pienaar 71 caps 130 points
22. JJ Engelbrecht 10 caps 20 points
23. Willie le Roux 9 caps 15 points

Wales team for South Africa
Wales

15 Leigh Halfpenny,
14 George North,
13 Jonathan Davies,
12 Scott Williams,
11 Eli Walker,
10 Rhys Priestland,
9 Mike Phillips,
8 Toby Faletau,
7 Sam Warburton (captain),
6 Dan Lydiate,
5 Alun Wyn Jones,
4 Bradley Davies,
3 Adam Jones,
2 Richard Hibbard,
1 Gethin Jenkins

Substitutes: 16 Ken Owens, 17 Paul James, 18 Scott Andrews, 19 Luke Charteris, 20 Justin Tipuric, 21 Lloyd Williams, 22 James Hook, 23 Liam Williams

fa0019 wrote:no idea about Priestlands form. He's a top class talent but he has a paper tiger heart and you can't have that at flyhalf. Once his head goes down thats it.

He may spring the occasional performance when he's top class, it may happen this saturday but overall its too dangerous to pick a guy who is unreliable at the clutch moments.

I was thinking on exactly the same lines but you saved me waxing lyrical with an eloquent review.

I saw him cost the Scarlets 10 points at the start of a game a few weeks ago but then manage to pull it back over the next quarter, alas SA or other top test teams dont throw 10 points away after a gift.

Biggar, was steady last year and controlled. It may not be all flair but his teamates know what is happening. One area that astounds me with Biggar is also the kick and chase, his retakes are exceptional.

Only just realised Hook's on the bench and Biggar not even in the squad, thought it was the other way around at first  

What is Gatland thinking? Ah well, the man divides opinion like a knife through butter. At least that's the only real howler for this game.

Is Hook seriously even in contention for the next RWC? He's less involved now than he was for the last two. He's a big-game bottler and as if that wasn't enough isn't even playing in Wales. Somebody please make sense of it as I can't no matter how hard I try.

Since the start of his meltdown last season the appearance of Priestland's name on a Wales XV teamsheet doesn't exactly calm the nerves.

Biggar is just as good a player 'around the park' BUT is a vastly superior kicker. When Priestland's out of hand stuff falls apart it does so in cataclysmic style.

Given the importance of tactical kicking in Gameplan Gatland, I'd assume Biggar would be automatic first choice, with Hook (and his 'siege gun' boot) on the bench as Gatland's preferred utility cover.

How come Hook gets selected yet Lee Byrne is left out in the cold when he still has a lot to offer Wales imo.

Because Hook can cover 10/12/13 whereas Byrne only covers 15 and with Liam Williams and 1/2p there's no real need for Byrne considering his age also.

gavstar wrote:biggar must be wondering if its worth sticking around wales, when he could quite easily go abroad .

hope i'm wrong , but rp is not ready , hooky cant follow the plot, only his own, we could be in for a cricket score, and truck load of injuries.

hope i'm wrong.

Why isn't Priestland ready? Before injury he was most peoples first choice and has played regularly and been in goods form since returning from injury.

Liam wrote:Because Hook can cover 10/12/13 whereas Byrne only covers 15 and with Liam Williams and 1/2p there's no real need for Byrne considering his age also.

Liam,

Beat me to it pretty much sums it up for me to.

Anyone else quite annoyed by the backline selection like I am? It just looks like we have not progressed from the days of contain, let Mikey have a go around the fringes and if that doesnt work give the ball to shane Eli.

knowsit, biggar should be playing, or bench, end of. even his detractors have been praising the guy.

If your face dont fit ? maybe they thought he didnt get the message when he was the only welsh player not to go on lions tour from the welsh team.

still, maybe i'm biased, as i've always said from 3 years ago, that he would be our 10 for a time to come. and i still think he will be......and to answer another poster about priestland not being ready, i should have qualified it by saying mentally.

hope i'm wrong, but if sa do an ' o'gara' job on him he will bottle, then we'll have harum scarum hooky, follow me down this alley !!!!

good luck to the team, but there must be some reason we will never know why the guy in his form at the moment is not in the picture.

All this comparison with Eli Walker and Shane Williams is noncense.

I have only seen Walker play once or twice, as electric as he looks he is very poor defencively, if your going with a weak defencive option then surely Cuthberts form gives him the edge going forward?!

The reason seems simple enough to me, Gavstar: Priestland and Biggar are both in form, and an in-form Priestland has a better all-round game than an in-form Biggar. And to say he's not in the picture is daft. If he wasn't in the picture, they wouldn't have called him up in the first place.

butterfingers, Cuthbert is injured, he clearly would have started otherwise.

butterfingers wrote:All this comparison with Eli Walker and Shane Williams is noncense.

You say that and then give a pretty good comparison of the two straight after

butterfingers wrote:I have only seen Walker play once or twice, as electric as he looks he is very poor defencively,

Tough on Biggar, losing out to Mr. Utility

No particular view on Walker

I've never seen Williams as anything but a journeyman - surely he's not the next best 9 we have?

Jenkins and Davies need a big game

Looking forward to it, but frankly not expecting much. SA are much better than when we last played them and we are not.

Its amazing how negative Welsh fans can become after a team selection announcement isn't it haha

I mean, we've come off the back of hammering England and retaining the 6N, had a large representation for the Lions, particularly in the final test and with just 2 of our main players missing who would normally play, we go from fancying our chances to 'it'll be a cricket score'.

I always fancied South Africa anyway due to their performances in the RC but Wales still have a chance. Walker has scored some cracking tries and clearly has great potential. I remember a certain other winger making his debut against SA and scoring two tries and he happens to be playing saturday. Wasn't long ago also that Priestland was the best 10 we've had since JD1 during the world cup. Even in the first game against Ireland in 2012, when he had the kicking duties taken off for him, his play out of hand was excellent, particularly that pass for the first try.

Liam, if you've read my post you'll see my annoyance is at the selection of Andrews Phillips and Eli Walker.

Liam Williams had a great game against NZ last time he was selected and has been in strong form for a while.

Phillips plays to a certain game plan we all agree but that gamepla nitself stifles our best chance of beating the top sides, let alone a Mike Phillips in relatively poor form, with no club and a point to prove, we all saw him in the Lions tests, I was hoping he'd be used to ease in another scrumhalf.

I just hope that North gets given the ball in space (he should do with that centre pairing as long as Williams doesnt get tunnel vision) and that Halfpenny has license to counter attack, with Walker picked I fear he doesnt, Liam Williams being a natural fullback would have covered for him and let him roam.

I still think SA by about a score but I'm sure you'll my reasons for concern, I dont think anyones mentioned losing by 'a cricket score'  

when did rp last face an international side ? unless the management are underestimating the sa's.

anyway, as that most useless saying goes.....it is what it is, just hope i'm wrong, and luckless, biggar is way ahead in carries, metres, and tackle count, which he has brought out of the bag when the o's have been under pressure. thats the other side to his game .

[quote="bedfordwelsh"]

gavstar wrote:biggar must be wondering if its worth sticking around wales, when he could quite easily go abroad .

hope i'm wrong , but rp is not ready , hooky cant follow the plot, only his own, we could be in for a cricket score, and truck load of injuries.

hope i'm wrong.

Comfort here's the cricket score part.

I agree with you on Phillips, for all his superb individual efforts overall he is a hidnerance to our backs with his slow ball. I really like Rhodri Williams, he looks like a new Peel to me, very exiting talent. Probably have Richie Rees as my starting 9 with R.Williams as back up and Lloyd williams out of the picture haha

I take it back mate, someone clearly has!

Hmmmm,

Of the starting team, by problem is with Walker - he hasn't shown the form of last season since recovering from injury and there are big questions over his defence still. If the rain comes down, I would rather have Williams catching kicks, running hard and defending. Walker could be a liability when faced with JP Pieterson.

We will really miss Cuthbert, he is our top try scorer at the moment and was in fantastic form - we need North to get himself involved a lot, he can't afford to have one of his quite games without Roberts or Cuthbert on the pitch.


Scott Andrews - given the squad, he was always going to be the bench option. It is just a pity that Mitchell is constantly injured and Samson Lee should really have been brought in, despite his age.

HOOK SHOULD NOT BE THE REPLACEMENT FLYHALF! - He isn't even playing there for Perpingnan, while Biggar goes from strength to strength.

Hook may be versatile, but I want to see Biggar and Preistland involved every game - pushing each other, as once happened with Hook and Jones.

Just when you thought Gatland has matured from mind games, he goes and pulls one out of his hat

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24814317

trying to guilt Rolland?

 

wales606 wrote:Just when you thought Gatland has matured from mind games, he goes and pulls one out of his hat

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24814317

trying to guilt Rolland?

Tell me about it, sad really that he feels the need to be like this as it's cast a small shadow over this mouth watering fixture.

He doesn't need to do it.

wales606 wrote:Just when you thought Gatland has matured from mind games, he goes and pulls one out of his hat

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24814317

trying to guilt Rolland?

I think it's particularly crass and show's that whatever skill Gatland brings he has a flaw that let's him down.

If Charteris is near the form he had before the long-term injury, I really hope he gets on from the bench for, say, the final 20 minutes. In the last couple of seasons he's started to use his weight - 20st plus- and height - 6ft11in - with a good body angle going forward. Very hard for opposing forwards to handle, even the Boks. And his tackling has been superb.

Well we have a very very strong 15 out. We will have a strong scrum with Gethin and Adam, a stable lineout with Alyn Wyn, Dan and Sam.
We have the team to do it so let's dot he job. I'm not really happy with the including of Luke, Scott and Lloyd on the bench. Luke has only just come back and must still only be getting back into things, Andrew Coombs has been playing great rugby here in Wales. I wan to give Scott a chance because whether you hate or like him he is a great prop in the open, he doesn't get enough credit for his work rate around the field; however with that being said his scrummaging has been far from descent and can't really be trust at this level yet. I just hope Adam can last all game, I think he was the only other option anyway because i think Jarvis is still struggling with a knock. But Scott' stepped up before, if he has to then let's hope he can do it again. Then Lloyd as our replacement 9 really shows the lack of depth we have at 9, he has been ok this season but that's it, just ok. I guess there is no other descent enough options to put at 9 though.

Just to some people on hear, ignore these people who are just coming on here for one reason which is to try and pi$$ us off. People done it last week on the England vs Austrlia match thread, they only want to wind you up.

jest ye may, liam, i'm looking at a 30 pointer minimum
from sa if rp gets wobbled ,doesnt click from the get go.all on his achilles, tee hee ( pathetic ! )

and as flyhalf says, hooky isnt playing 10 in france, he's at 15,

pays your money gets your choice. 

As regards Priestland then yes, if he turns out as he did in summer 2012 then no he shouldn't be starting as I can see the Boks' pack almost literally killing him if he does. Having said that no flyhalf is made to take on the opposition pack single-handedly so the way our own pack live with them may well be crucial. Last time these sides played was when the back row (the very same starting for Wales on Sat) had a stormer and, in my eyes, quite effectively nullified their opposite numbers. That said the Boks' pack will probably look more than a little different this time.

Anyway, people all too easily neglect the fact that prior to his titanic slump Priestland did actually have a very good World Cup. And since his return from injury I think it's fair to say he hasn't been playing badly at all. He was key in the Scarlets' winning at the Stoop. Frankly I can't relate to people who are still using his (albeit very bad) form of over a year ago to assess how he'll turn out on Saturday. At his best he was and continues to be an asset for any side he's playing for. By the same token I certainly can't guarantee he'll be any better than he was Down Under. My point is it's unfair and often inaccurate to take any player's most forgettable performances and use that as a permanent measuring-stick. It doesn't sum up the player or his career and it's worth mentioning that Priestland career as a whole has been more positive than negative in my view.

The main danger is having Hook to step in as opposed to Biggar if Priestland collapses. I don't get having the top two 10s in Wales at your disposal and instead choosing to go with an outsider who has not put in an impressive national performance for years. That, as I've explained, is my only significant gripe with Gats on this particular selection.

Jhamer25 wrote:Lloyd as our replacement 9 really shows the lack of depth we have at 9, he has been ok this season but that's it, just ok. I guess there is no other descent enough options to put at 9 though.

If only that was true! There are at least three scrum halves who are playing better than him.

Knowsit, well said regarding Priestland. Either compare Priestland at his worst to Biggar at his worst (Fiji a couple of seasons ago would be a good place to start), or, as the Welsh management clearly have, compare Priestland at his best to Biggar at his best. (Anyone questioning his kicking game should watch the 2012 Grand Slam clincher against France, when it was exemplary).

It all starts with the forwards, without them it is tough for any flyhalf to stamp his authority on a match.

Absolutely and I'm sure Gatts will be drumming that into his forwards that they need to at least match their south african counterparts to give our backs anything to work on.

Oh dear god, this is the actual team???

I thought it was just ScarletSpiderman being wildly optimistic.

Priestland!!!? And Eli Walker(???).

In fairness, with the roof open and it raining and it highly likely South Africa will test us with the up and unders, I think Williams was the way forward but Walker has clearly shown something in training. If it goes t*ts up Williams can always come on.

Well we'll just have to test them with up and unders, too. See how they like it.

they'll probably love it when we keep over hitting it and they just run it back at us hahaha

what has Samson Lee done to annoy Gats?

I cant understand why Priestland is getting so much stick, ok I would have started with Biggar but both him and Priestland are on top form and a Priestland in 2011 form is still better than Biggar in his best form.

If Priestland has a nightmare then I am never afraid to come on these boards and admit I was wrong to be happy with him starting but if he gets hi sgame right and carries recwnt form into Saturday will all his knockers be as brave?

GavinDragon wrote:what has Samson Lee done to annoy Gats?

GD,

I am wondering and have asked if maybe its a bit of warning about discipline etc, I am sure if we get any injuries he's first on list to be called up.

surely that can't just be it, bradley davies hasnt exactly a clean record but starts despite their being two good alternatives in the squad....

must be something else, the guy is 21-22 and have yet to see him go backwards in the scrum, is it his work rate round the park? Perhaps some scarlets fans could fill us in on that front?

GavinDragon wrote:surely that can't just be it, bradley davies hasnt exactly a clean record  but starts despite their being two good alternatives in the squad....

must be something else, the guy is 21-22 and have yet to see him go backwards in the scrum........

Not sure that's 100% accurate. An over-the-hill Duncan Jones gave him a serious scrummaging lesson, albeit last season, and packing down against the boks is a world away from the Rabo. He has a lot of potential but the South Africans aren't going to give a stuff that he's half gypsy and likes shooting things.





Priestland!???!

Maybe bit of both who knows, Gatland has always made some strange inconsistent decisions from the start so lets hope he knows what he's doing. Which is more than what most of us know lol

Samson missed out on the summer tour as they didn't want to burn him out a a young age. But he was in the last AIs squad and has disappeared internationally since. Really not sure why, Gats still thiks Rhodri Jones will make a good tighthead, so maybe its political to make the Scarlets play Jones? Who knows

Not shocked that RP at 10 and DB not in the 22 both poor selections I believe. Walker is a very good prospect but I am a bit concerned with his catching of the high ball in wet conditions. I think Hook is a good option on the bench he is the one player that can change the game from the bench.

With RP at 10 and Phillips at 9 I go with SA by 15 points, hope I am wrong but it is Wales's first outting since the England game.

http://www.oddschecker.com/rugby-union/internationals/wales-v-south-africa/handicaps

SA -3 looks fairly generous?

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Bluedragon wrote:Wales always seem to struggle defensively and offensively with Roberts missing. And Cuthberts try scoring will be missed. Halfpenny's been a bit out of from at the Blues. Wales always seem to start their campaigns poorly.

But I am still hopefully that we will beat the Boks for the second time ever ( I was lucky enough to be at our only ever previous victory at a half finished Millenium Stadium - my mum booked a holiday so my Dad couldn't go to the match and gave me his ticket - right by where mark taylor went over for his try )

Whatever the outcome, I think it will be one of the matches of the autumn series ( unlike the dire stodge served up at Twickers last Saturday)

BD,

We must have been pretty close to each other that day then as I was in same area of the ground and can still see Taylor running towards me  

how funny ! It was a great game wasn't it ? Thougg I had a big drip from the roof dripping on me all game. just like the old east terrace ! I was sat side on between the 22 and the try line. My dad couldn't quite believe that he'd given me his ticket.

I reckon if all goes well with Blues artificial pitch the will put one in the Millenium next year. Seen the big lights they have over the winter growing the grass in there ? can't be cheap. Blues paid £ 400 K fr their pitch with a 5 year life - and it will get used more than one in the millenium

GavinDragon wrote:what has Samson Lee done to annoy Gats?

Bet that carpet he sold him for the porch was threadbare.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Well we'll just have to test them with up and unders, too. See how they like it.

That would be most unwise, Mike Philips & Priestland are not winning a kicking duel against Fourie Du Preez and Morne Steyn . Thats the equivalent of saying the Boks will make a point of running directly at George North , again another unwise move

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:http://www.oddschecker.com/rugby-union/internationals/wales-v-south-africa/handicaps

SA -3 looks fairly generous?

Yes too generous. I expect SA forwards to dominate esp in the scrums. Adams in particular has struggled with the new rules. Combine that with SA's great form I was expecting at least -7. Worth a punt to me.

Bullsbok wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Well we'll just have to test them with up and unders, too. See how they like it.

That would be most unwise, Mike Philips & Priestland are not winning a kicking duel against Fourie Du Preez and Morne Steyn . Thats the equivalent of saying the Boks will make a point of running directly at George North , again another unwise move

I'm not suggesting garryowen after garryowen, just that we should send a few bombs your way too. I imagine our back three will be more used to the conditions than yours. But the kicks will have to be on the money or we could be in trouble.

First match up for the Welsh lads against a settled and firing SA team. Not the fixture the team would want at the start of the AIs and we cannot expect to see the forwards dominate a hugely physical SA pack.

So we have to move those big lumps around the park and tire them out. This though could mean we see the "typewriter" attack of previous autumns again

if mike Philips box kicks , its because hes under orders . Wales will be trying to keep it in boks half and hope for a knock on