World Tour Finals - Semi-Finals Thread

[JuliusHMarx]

First topic message reminder :

Day 6 is over. It's so in the past. The future, on the other hand, is so bright I gotta wear shades.

[socal1976]

I suppose loudly and vociferously defending a player suspended for failing to give a blood sample makes him a difficult pick for the Edberg Award, B.S.

He stood up for a friend who he felt had been treated unfairly when he knew that his stand would be controversial and open him up to scrutiny, how exactly is that bad sportsmanship? Rightly or wrongly he stood up for another player who he thought got a bum deal and to a professional risk he otherwise need not of taken.

[JuliusHMarx]

I suppose loudly and vociferously defending a player suspended for failing to give a blood sample makes him a difficult pick for the Edberg Award, B.S.

And it's the racket-smashing.

[socal1976]

Novak is changing directions like a Ferrari tonight on his form he is untouchable. Stan is playing well and most likely we lose soundly.

[Jahu]

Also guns with Tipsy.

[JuliusHMarx]

I suppose loudly and vociferously defending a player suspended for failing to give a blood sample makes him a difficult pick for the Edberg Award, B.S.

He stood up for a friend who he felt had been treated unfairly when he knew that his stand would be controversial and open him up to scrutiny, how exactly is that bad sportsmanship? Rightly or wrongly he stood up for another player who he thought got a bum deal and to a professional risk he otherwise need not of taken.

Rightly or wrongly? Thing is, it was wrongly. Hence bad for the sport.

[kingraf]

Socal - the fact is - giving a guy who has defended a player who, (whichever way you spin it) intentionally skipped a blood test the Edberg award is asking for trouble.

[Born Slippy]

nice to see Stan applaud that insane winner from Novak. Match being played in a great spirit.

[socal1976]

What an incredible passing shot by Djokovic a wonder shot I didn't even think he could get there but Stan still holds.

[socal1976]

That was Usain Bolt with a firecracker up his arsse from Djokovic getting to that passing shot and picking it off his shoelaces, remarkable.

[Henman Bill]

That cross court pass from Novak was magnificent, most players would not have even reached it. Real wow factor shot. If Federer had done that the crowd would have dirtied their pants. Maybe the best shot I've seen in the tournament.

[slashermcguirk]

That passing shot by djokovic in previous game was outrageous! How did he get to that ball let alone hit a winner

[socal1976]

Socal - the fact is - giving a guy who has defended a player who, (whichever way you spin it) intentionally skipped a blood test the Edberg award is asking for trouble.

Who the hell would want that silly award once Federer and on court coaching guy have soiled it? I really don't care if Djoko ever wins it just drives me crazy that Federer has won it. I guess standing up for a friend is terrible sportsmanship but trashing your opposition in the media is good sportsmanship.

[Henman Bill]

Ha we all posted at the same time with the same thought..

[Henman Bill]

"Federer and on court coaching guy have soiled it?"
seriously?

[socal1976]

Getting the Edberg Award right now would be like being the last guy at the bachelor party to have a go with the stripper.

[Jahu]

You must know.

[socal1976]

You must know.

Your sister was working and needed the money.

[Henman Bill]

Ah, Greg agrees with me about the shot of the tournament.

By the way, the on court interviewed said they have played the most ever in terms of number of matches in total in the rivlary. That is absolute rubbish. Not even remotely close. I think he means most in the open era or most since we started recording the results in an easily checkable database or something. Players in the 50s and 60s for instance would tour around and play each other tons of times in a single season.

[socal1976]

Open era for sure Henman bill, like most of these records they don't count pre-open era where there were fewer pros and much smaller fields.

[laverfan]

You must know.

Your sister was working and needed the money.

SoCal… Please be careful on what you say.

Jahu… The same goes for you.

[JuliusHMarx]

socal - the answer is no, it won't be tolerated. I've removed the original post and you post which quoted it, to remove all trace. Also see my soon-to-be-sent PM

[Henman Bill]

Well a pause to congratulate Stan Warwinka on the best year of his career. With a tremendous performance losinng only narrowly in the 4th round at AO against Djokovic in what some might call a contender for the match of the year a title on clay beating David Ferrer in the final in Portugal, reaching the Madrid final and only losing to Rafa, a QF at the FO only losing to Rafa again and, perhaps best of all, his US Open run defeating Stepanek, Karlovic, Baghdatis, Berdych and Murray (4,3 and 2) before another 5-set defeat to Djokovic in his first ever slam semi. (He also beat Murray at Monte Carlo.)

Capping the year with a final ranking of 8, vs his previous best of 13 (and no better than 17 in the last 4 years). He also won a doubles title in Chennai apparently (thanks Wikipedia). The only disappointment was that when it really came to the crunch against the top 2, he wasn’t quite able to get a big win.

[laverfan]

I have this unlocked, now. Please chill Jahu and SoCal. No racist remarks or anything ancestry-related.

[Guest]

quit the little digs... to get back on topic
DAT performance from Novak  
Tomorrow could be good

[Henman Bill]

As for Djokovic, I thought he played slightly better than Rafa in their respective semi finals, probably underlining his status as the slight favourite.

[kingraf]

Bit like a car crash, this... I saw it coming, but didn't want to look away...

[laverfan]

@HB… quite agree. Much better year for Stan the Man. Lots of credit is due to Magnus (of the Soderling fame) in his corner.

[socal1976]

Well a pause to congratulate Stan Warwinka on the best year of his career. With a tremendous performance losinng only narrowly in the 4th round at AO against Djokovic in what some might call a contender for the match of the year a title on clay beating David Ferrer in the final in Portugal, reaching the Madrid final and only losing to Rafa, a QF at the FO only losing to Rafa again and, perhaps best of all, his US Open run defeating Stepanek, Karlovic, Baghdatis, Berdych and Murray (4,3 and 2) before another 5-set defeat to Djokovic. (He also beat Murray at Monte Carlo.)

Capping the year with a final ranking of 8, vs his previous best of 13 (and no better than 17 in the last 4 years). He also won a doubles title in Chennai apparently (thanks Wikipedia). The only disappointment was that when it really came to the crunch against the top 2, he wasn’t quite able to get a big win.

Agree he really didn't play that poorly in this match but Novak made it a routine victory. Great season for Stan, Novak v. Stan at the AO is my match of the year. He has all the tools and one of the most watchable backhands and biggest groundies on tour.

[Henman Bill]

With Djokovic having the extra match in Paris and the later finish today (compared to Rafa) the fact that he won in straights tonight could be important. Rafa will have the freshness advantage, but it might be only slight. Let's see.

[socal1976]

My prediction for the final Novak in 3 close sets. Novak served beautifully today, moved well, and changed direction on the ball like he was playing a video game. Very clean performance from him and while he bossed and controlled most of the rallies you didn't feel like he was playing risky or pushing himself. He just kept moving stan till he either got the opening to hit a winner, come to net, or force an error. If he hits his up the line backhand this well and serves this well against Nadal he should win. But as we know Nadal is just another level up in terms of talent and a sensational competitor.

[laverfan]

But as we know Nadal is just another level up in terms of talent and a sensational competitor.

The same guy who has coaching-sullied the Edberg award.  

[Henman Bill]

Nadal and Djokovic have dominated the tour this year winning every event at 1000 level and above, with 2 exceptions.

1 Miami, where Rafa didn't play, and Djokovic lost to Tommy Haas
2 A little grass court tournament we have every year in the London area.

Although, to be fair, Rafa was injured against Darcis, so I can say:

"Every tournament this year at 1000 level and above, where both Rafa and Novak have entered and been fully fit, has been won by one of the two."

I assume there was a tournament below 1000 level that they might both have entered but someone else won.

[Henman Bill]

Of course with 2 slams out of 3 played (and 2 out of 2 when fit) vs 1 out of 4 played, and 5 masters to 3, it's pretty obvious which of the 2 has dominated the most.

[kingraf]

Big game tomorrow. #1 vs #2 in the last tournament of the year. Tournament director will be high fiving anyone year him right now, as that's a big "coup". Djokovic, you feel, is playing at a slightly higher level right now, and thus goes in a marginal favorite. If he plays like he did in Beijing, Nadal will need to be in all-time form to get close. But, Nadal's base level is so high, and Djokovic is so prone to being emotionally-led, that it could just as easily go the other way. I'd like a Rafa win, but you cant begrudge a man who's been ridiculous post US Open. I asked during the US Open if Djokovic has lost that intestinal fortitude that broke spirits in 2011, it looks like he re-discovered it after US, but he hasn't faced anyone who's asked him to dig as deep within himself since NY. Djokovic may just be too hot.

[Henman Bill]

Also a word for the Bryan brothers with 3 slam wins and 5 masters on the doubles circuit this year, which was not equalled in the rest of their career.

[HM Murdock]

Very tough to predict how the final will go. Neither player has been at their very best this tournament.

I'd say Djokovic has perhaps had the higher peaks but Rafa has been the more consistent overall.

If Novak produces a good serving performance, he may have the edge. If the first serve % is lower, the advantage is with Rafa. His forehand DTL has looked in good shape whereas Novak's BHDTL is still looking inconsistent (as it has been for much of the year).

[Danny_1982]

It is the right match to end the year tomorrow. The two top players who have had some brilliant matches in the past. I love the athletic aspect to their matches, killing each other every point and forcing the other to run marathons.

20 and 30 shots of conservative aggression and lung bursting chases and stretches is not for everyone, but I love the movement and the balance it requires. Not to mention the heart.

I think Novak will edge it if both play really well. But the one caveat I would put on that is that we know Rafa will give up few errors and chase until he drops, so I kinda see the match in Novak's hands. On this surface anyway. I'm backing him to play well enough. 7/5, 7/5 or something like that.

[Johnyjeep]

Nadal and Djokovic have dominated the tour this year winning every event at 1000 level and above, with 2 exceptions.

1 Miami, where Rafa didn't play, and Djokovic lost to Tommy Haas
2 A little grass court tournament we have every year in the London area.

Although, to be fair, Rafa was injured against Darcis, so I can say:

"Every tournament this year at 1000 level and above, where both Rafa and Novak have entered and been fully fit, has been won by one of the two."

I assume there was a tournament below 1000 level that they might both have entered but someone else won.

I'm not sure if this 4th line is a wind-up? These have both well and truly dominated. No need to make up lies! I watched that match that Rafa lost and he didn't lose it cus he was injured.

[Guest]

I watched the Nadal - Darcis Wimbledon match & Nadal's movement was rubbish & he was limping.  Rosol beat him fair & square however last year (IMO) - although Nadal didn't play any matches afterwards - going on a long injury break.

back to the Darcis - Nadal match:
"On Monday, he made uncharacteristic errors and struggled to counter the slice that Darcis produced with his one-handed backhand. Perhaps most significant, Nadal struggled to move freely in the final phases of the match. Though he showed no sign of pain in the early stages, he was clearly hampered near the end, struggling to reach balls usually in his range and limping noticeably after some exchanges."
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/25/sports/tennis/nadal-loses-in-the-first-round-to-steve-darcis.html?_r=0

[socal1976]

I agree Murdoch for some reason Novak has been pretty inconsistent with the backhand up the line. I thought however he hit it extremely well last night against Stan. Against Nadal that is going to be the crucial shot for Novak. If he struggles with that shot he most likely won't win. Plus he obviously needs a good serving day. One thing about the down the line backy is that it is actually for a good two hander easier to hit on the high ball, especially if the high ball drops just a little bit short. Off the slice or flatter shots getting underneath the backhand up the line, changing direction and getting it to go up over the high part of the net is trickier. In on respect, Nadal's higher bouncing ball will provide Novak a better opportunity to take that shot up the line, especially if Nadal's excessive spin drops the ball just that little bit short. Short and high is the perfect ball to go up the line with on your two hander so Nadal's depth when he goes CC forehand will be essential.

[JuliusHMarx]

I watched the Nadal - Darcis Wimbledon match & Nadal's movement was rubbish & he was limping.  Rosol beat him fair & square however last year (IMO) - although Nadal didn't play any matches afterwards - going on a long injury break.

back to the Darcis - Nadal match:
"On Monday, he made uncharacteristic errors and struggled to counter the slice that Darcis produced with his one-handed backhand. Perhaps most significant, Nadal struggled to move freely in the final phases of the match. Though he showed no sign of pain in the early stages, he was clearly hampered near the end, struggling to reach balls usually in his range and limping noticeably after some exchanges."
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/25/sports/tennis/nadal-loses-in-the-first-round-to-steve-darcis.html?_r=0

As the report says, he showed no sign of pain until he was 2 sets to 0 down. If he had won the first 2 sets, would there have been any sign of pain? Would he have then withdrawn from the rest of the tournament? I have my doubts.
Everyone who's played tennis at even club level knows that when you're losing the smallest niggle becomes a mental excuse for losing and gets exaggerated both physically and mentally. That's probably why both Rafa, and even Toni, didn't blame the loss on the knees, or say that they were any worse than in any other match this year.

Ironically, Darcis injured his shoulder at 3-3 in the first set, and had to withdraw from his next match, yet none of the eagle-eyed commentators detected Darcis' injury.

[Guest]

When Nadal lost tamely to Ferrer at the quarter final of AO 2011 he showed no pain yet his mobility was clearly rubbish:
Rafael Nadal 4 2 3
David Ferrer 6 6 6

Just because Nadal loses it doesn't mean one can't analyse with ones eyes the match for reasons. I was responding to Mr Jeeps cycloptic claim that Mr Henman was making up lies.

Your claim that when Nadal is losing to the No 135 in the world that he doesn't have the mental strength to keep fighting is as funny as a Marx brother's sketch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKTT-sy0aLg

[Henman Bill]

While the signs of Rafa's injury or imperfect condition against Darcis did become more obvious as the match went on, it was reasonably clear to many early on as well. Even by his standards his running around to hit a forehand was mental, he could barely hit a backhand, and he wasn't even running for some balls. It was pretty clear to me, even Bogbrush, a Federer fan, said the same.

Anyway, Jeep might be wumming here.

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