World Tour Finals - Semi-Finals Thread

[JuliusHMarx]

First topic message reminder :

Day 6 is over. It's so in the past. The future, on the other hand, is so bright I gotta wear shades.

[HM Murdock]

Not really, LF. I do actually think the Mac/Lendl rivalry is a bit overrated (I think the overlap between their peaks was pretty small) but at least it's relatively close. 3 matches the other way and the H2H is equal.

Difference is that people generally just accept that rivalry for what it was. I don't have to endure the media and certain posters bringing themselves to a collective climax over a narrative that died years ago. Nor does it expose me to the half-witted smugness that some have that their favourite players are liked by lots of other people too.

[hawkeye]

Watching I think Mirka is in need of an end of season break too...

[hawkeye]

Not really, LF. I do actually think the Mac/Lendl rivalry is a bit overrated (I think the overlap between their peaks was pretty small) but at least it's relatively close. 3 matches the other way and the H2H is equal.

Difference is that people generally just accept that rivalry for what it was. I don't have to endure the media and certain posters bringing themselves to a collective climax over a narrative that died years ago. Nor does it expose me to the half-witted smugness that some have that their favourite players are liked by lots of other people too.

Sorry if it comes across as smugness. I suppose I'm just surprised that anyone who likes tennis as you clearly do can't appreciate these two great players and why it will always be a bit special when they play. It has nothing to do with their H2H as Federer will find it more difficult now to get more wins just because of his age.

[Danny_1982]

HE - I don't think it's a case of not appreciating either of them, but there matches aren't as fun to watch as they were years ago. I enjoyed Cinci this year, but that apart it's been pretty dull when they've met recently.

Wimbledon 08 is probably the best match I've ever seen, but this rivalry is not capable of reaching those heights now. Hence why some get a bit bored by it.

[HM Murdock]

I think both players are great and, on the days when Fed is at the races, I like the stylistic match up too. It's not the most exciting match up overall to me but each to their own.

What I'm not keen on is other players being knocked as a means of building up Fedal.

[Haddie-nuff]

Danny Im not sure I entirely agree .. its not a question of capability
Roger still has the talent what is questionable is his belief and confidence. To quote the old adage that there is nothing like success to breed success I think applies to Roger, If he could only notch up a win against one of the big guns then I think we would see a difference.
I still believe that his stamina, given his age, he could still outlast some of the younger players-  So go away and have a good Christmas Roger and start believing (no not in     )

[naxroy]

this tournament would have been so much harder for nadal with murray in it

[hawkeye]

HE - I don't think it's a case of not appreciating either of them, but there matches aren't as fun to watch as they were years ago. I enjoyed Cinci this year, but that apart it's been pretty dull when they've met recently.

Wimbledon 08 is probably the best match I've ever seen, but this rivalry is not capable of reaching those heights now. Hence why some get a bit bored by it.

I think it will be difficult for any match to come close to their Wimbledon final so it's a bit unfair to judge all their matches against one of the greatest matches ever. It wasn't just the quality of play but the context in which it was played. It will always be more exciting having a young player challenge a current dominant number one. The story now is of an aging champion challenging the current number one. IMO the quality of play is still there.

If it's drama you want. Nothing in tennis beats Djokovic's attempts to steal the "Holy Grail" (RG) off Nadal. There is electricity on the court when they play there. It doesn't matter about the quality of play because TBH I don't know how they can hold their racquets without shaking. Did anyone see the BBC interview with Djokovic after the Fed/Nadal match were Djokovic admitted that he felt mentally destroyed by his loss to Nadal at this years semi at RG? He again said how much he wanted that trophy. Here I will admit to a little smugness because I have been trying to say this all along. Despite being  

[JuliusHMarx]

HE - I don't think it's a case of not appreciating either of them, but there matches aren't as fun to watch as they were years ago. I enjoyed Cinci this year, but that apart it's been pretty dull when they've met recently.

Wimbledon 08 is probably the best match I've ever seen, but this rivalry is not capable of reaching those heights now. Hence why some get a bit bored by it.

I think it will be difficult for any match to come close to their Wimbledon final so it's a bit unfair to judge all their matches against one of the greatest matches ever. It wasn't just the quality of play but the context in which it was played. It will always be more exciting having a young player challenge a current dominant number one. The story now is of an aging champion challenging the current number one. IMO the quality of play is still there.

If it's drama you want. Nothing in tennis beats Djokovic's attempts to steal the "Holy Grail" (RG) off Nadal. There is electricity on the court when they play there. It doesn't matter about the quality of play because TBH I don't know how they can hold their racquets without shaking. Did anyone see the BBC interview with Djokovic after the Fed/Nadal match were Djokovic admitted that he felt mentally destroyed by his loss to Nadal at this years semi at RG? He again said how much he wanted that trophy. Here I will admit to a little smugness because I have been trying to say this all along. Despite being  

You weren't trying to say it all along, you were only trying to say it immediately after Murray won Wimbledon - you waited 4 weeks before saying anything at all and I doubt you would have mentioned it all if Murray had not won Wimby.
Clearly Djoko was so destroyed by it, he 'only' managed to reach the Wimbledon final and finish the year as world No. 2.

[kingraf]

I wonder what is says about me that despite the fact that I know that HE's "Holy Grail" theory is probably incorrect, she's repeated so often that I've begun to believe it...

[laverfan]

@HMM.. We can call the Fedal matches a rivalry or not. Despite the five+ year differential, credit should go to Nadal for making their matches a rivalry, to begin with.

In a sense, Borg may been correct in leaving the field, when he did. Federer is just happy to be on the court, and show glimpses of his past grandeur. He has been to WTF SFs in past 12 years (except 2008), he will be around for a couple of more years.

Being a Djokovic fan, I understand, that you had much rather discuss a Nadalovic rivalry. Let the folks in stasis have a bit more fun, before their jaw movements completely cease. .

Nadalovic (The Bludgeoning) will continue to be discussed for many years to come. As Nax says, Murray could have made it even more interesting.

[Haddie-nuff]

this tournament would have been so much harder for nadal with murray in i

This surely can apply to any of the players where one or other is missing from a tournament.. they can only play whoever is (or is not) their opponent in the day

[Guest]

Nadalovic: The Bludgeoning

Appearing in all good cinemas near you. Just when you think it's all over - it goes on for another 6 hours.

[Guest]

... As Nax says, Murray could have made it even more interesting.

I reckon he would have been knocked out without a whimper (or maybe with lots of screaming, yelling, blood-letting, & gurning). But who knows - if my uncle was my mother then what would dad say?

[JuliusHMarx]

... As Nax says, Murray could have made it even more interesting.

I reckon he would have been knocked out without a whimper (or maybe with lots of screaming, yelling, blood-letting, & gurning).  But who knows - if my uncle was my mother then what would dad say?

He's say that Fed/Rafa/Djoko/Murray/Borg/Sampras/McEnroe/Connors/Lendl/Henman/Marx* would have won 25/0* slams


* Delete as applicable according to the player you love/hate

[Johnyjeep]

I wonder what is says about me that despite the fact that I know that HE's "Holy Grail" theory is probably incorrect, she's repeated so often that I've begun to believe it...

hahahaha

[naxroy]

didn't mean to underrate rafa

[Roger Laver]

HE - I don't think it's a case of not appreciating either of them, but there matches aren't as fun to watch as they were years ago. I enjoyed Cinci this year, but that apart it's been pretty dull when they've met recently.

Wimbledon 08 is probably the best match I've ever seen, but this rivalry is not capable of reaching those heights now. Hence why some get a bit bored by it.

I think 2001 wimbledon Pete-Roger and 2005 AO Roger-Safin are better than Wimbledon 08.

For sheer talent, Rafa cannot match Safin. If Safin had an uncle who would discipline him, who knows? Sampras again has immense talent.

Rafa is more of a GREAT competitor. What I am trying to say is Rafa is about winning - hook/crook. [lot of time violations, illegal coaching, you know the deal]

Fed/Safin/Sampras are about HOW they play. Winning is a by-product of their pursuit of excellence/perfection. Of course Sampras/Fed were more successful in that pursuit than Safin!

[break_in_the_fifth]

That was basically just a clay court match minus the sliding. Even when Fed broke Nadal back in the first set, he was just playing 'Nadal' tennis and looping the the ball. It was intriguing seeing his range of play being able to encompass that but ultimately just sad as that's not his game. It seems everyone has been playing like this, even the first match with Berdych and Wawrinka, it was kind of surreal to see them just looping the ball to each other with no purpose. I guess this is tennis now...

[kingraf]

I would think everyone who went to thwarted O2 this week can confirm That they aren't just looping it, bitf!

[kingraf]

I would think everyone who went to the O2 this week can confirm That they aren't just looping it, bitf!

[Henman Bill]

Throughout the history of tennis, the younger great/legend almost always gets the better of the older player and almost always reels off a string of victories against them in the second half of the rivalry, Federer himself did it to Agassi, and Agassi himself was able to beat the likes of say Jimmy Connors. Connors also suffered a big run of defeats to Lendl, and there are so many more examples. Federer has done better than average, at least he's got the odd win in there.

I'd still back Federer to win 1 in 3 vs Murray, 1 in 4 vs Djokovic and 1 in 5 vs Nadal.

[break_in_the_fifth]

Not everyone then, just the points in the matches I saw then.

[CAS]

he is competing with players 5/6/7 years younger than him, Im sure when Rafa, Novak, Andy and Juan Martin play people that much younger than them people will have no problem using that excuse when they start losing, its a young mans game. He is still a top player, but when it comes to long rallies you can see him begin to fall away

[Haddie-nuff]

Ive seen younger players than him fall away when they are playing people like Nadal or Delpo.. Im not a Fed fan but I think you should give him just a little more credit for getting to the semis given he has had a lousy year.

[CAS]

Ive seen younger players than him fall away when they are playing people like Nadal or Delpo.. Im not a Fed fan but I think you should give him just a little more credit for getting to the semis given he has had a lousy year.

I have given him plenty of credit, the match against Delpo he fought so hard it was so impressive, never gave up. Champions mentality, but to do it again the very next day is just too much for him. Especially going 3 with Delpo, then 3 with Novak, the 3 with Novak again, little breather with Gasquet then going 3 again against Delpo, not bad for a 32 year old! All this after Basel where he was in another bunch of 3 setters

[Haddie-nuff]

I couldn´t agree more and as Ive said Ive seen younger players than him buckle before he did. I am not so sure that its physical with Roger he has always had a style of play that is less physical than some you mention. I feel he is lacking belief, confidence and the ability to remain focused.

[summerblues]

Judging by the color of their outfits, I realized I am not watching Wimbledon right now.

[laverfan]

Federer had back issues. Not sure if they have been all addressed. The same style that requires less physical exertion, requires much higher precision, for footwork and timing. His age is slowly gaining the upper hand. Becker mentioned the missing little steps for his FH errors. The weight of expectation from his fans is the only constant, even if they themselves are unable to do things they could accomplish easily 15 years ago.

[Jahu]

Oh man, go STAN! 3 games and Djoko has no winners and is broken. Petr Korda was more interesting to watch then Djoko.

Go Stan Go

[summerblues]

The weight of expectation from his fans is the only constant

Nicely put.

[CAS]

I agree he is lost confidence but what comes first? Has he lost confidence because he can't move the way he used to? Defending is a huge part of this sport these days, and he can't do it as well as the big 3 so he goes all out attack, playing like this he will win some big matches but its not something even he can sustain.

He was excellent at controlled aggression but he doesn't seem to want to do that, thats because he feels like he can't rally with the other guys anymore. Why can't he rally? because the game has moved on, he grew up in an era where you finished the point in 1-5 shots, its testament to him that with the game changing he has been able to adapt so well and keep up.

However, he is trying to play the tennis of the 90s, finishing the points early, however a mixture of the conditions being slower and the opponents he is facing, who are superior athletes almost produced through the conditions slowing down, who are born to play long rallies its much harder to achieve, his game was/is his hands and timing.

Federer is also a great athlete, probably the best of his generation, but the following generation are a step above. He can hit 2/3 tremendous half volleys off the baseline, hit 10-15 shots half an inch over the net and still lose the point, while his opponents are able to take little risk by neutralising him by staying far back and being absolute beasts at the back of the court.

Rafas spin allows him to prevent his opponents from attacking him, and with his speed and defensive skills (which is an art in itself, running down shots is one thing, but where he puts it is another) behind that he is a brick wall, Novak is a rubber band that seems to be able to cover the court like if Mr. Fantastic could play tennis, Andy is a physical specimen like Rafa with awesome speed as well. So its either that or be a 6'6/7/8 monster who can blast his way past them.

The one handed hand is also a weakness for Roger, it was better back in the day of short points but now if you are going to have to go through 30+ rallies its a liability because its so much harder to control, especially when defending, the amount of times I see two handers use their other arm to drag the ball back in play, a single hander just can't do that. It was better in a time when you wanted to finish points at the net. Double handers are able to guide the ball better I find as well, move the ball around, Stan and Gasquet have stunning backhands but at the end of the day they are also susceptible on that side when they are defending, which you do more of these days.

I dont dislike the big 3s style by the way, I actually quite enjoy longer rallies if I'm honest, more so than the 90s quick points, but not over 4/5 hours, I think thats one of the reason I liked Federer, he exchanges in long rallies but not all the time, he was a nice blend of what was good about the 90s and whats good about the game now. Unfortunately, the players are better than him at longer rallies, so all he can control is being better than them at shortening the points, it becomes a battle of him trying to keep it to 5 shots and them extending it to 15+, thats where the winner is decided, who ever does it best wins.

[Jahu]

 

[JuliusHMarx]

Federer had back issues. Not sure if they have been  all addressed. The same style that requires less physical exertion, requires much higher precision, for footwork and timing. His age is slowly gaining the upper hand. Becker mentioned the missing little steps for his FH errors.  The weight of expectation from his fans is the only constant, even if they themselves are unable to do things they could accomplish easily 15 years ago.

I can comb my hair much more easily - there's so much less of it.

[socal1976]

The greatest non-rivalry in the sport was predictable in its result. I hope Novak wins, Stan has little chance against Nadal and it is only fitting we get 1 v. 2 in the final match of the year just wish it was over 5 sets.

[socal1976]

Incredible point by the Serbinator defending like his shorts are on fire to go up a break, follows it up with a sloppy routine backhand for an error to go 0-15

[Jahu]

Most people enjoy seeing someone beat Djoko, and not bother with who can't beat Nadal.

[Jahu]

Stan rushing a little, not bad play from him, and he can really nicely.

[socal1976]

Most people are idiots, so what is your point Jahu?

[Jahu]

socal, there is no sense of having a point with you. Thanks god you are in non-idiot minority, So proud you talk to me!

[laverfan]

Most people are idiots, so what is your point Jahu?

Please enjoy the match, rather than innuendo across the trench.

[socal1976]

socal, there is no sense of having a point with you. Thanks god you are in non-idiot minority, So proud you talk to me!

Yes you should be honored after your stupid racist Sand dune joke that was about as funny as a case of the crabs. Don't worry I do not suffer fools gladly so we won't be talking much longer.

[socal1976]

Djokovic turning in a master class the last few games.

[Henman Bill]

great post by CAS at 8.32

[Born Slippy]

Another great example of why Djokovic should win the Edberg award. Every other top 10 player would have wanted that point replayed when the HE ruling showed Stan's serve was in. Novak walks to the other side, making the decision for the umpire. Truly exceptional.

[laverfan]

Djokovic should have challenged.

[kingraf]

I suppose loudly and vociferously defending a player suspended for failing to give a blood sample makes him a difficult pick for the Edberg Award, B.S.

[socal1976]

Another great example of why Djokovic should win the Edberg award. Every other top 10 player would have wanted that point replayed when the HE ruling showed Stan's serve was in. Novak walks to the other side, making the decision for the umpire. Truly exceptional.

He is the fairest player on tour with line calls I have seen, I have even seen him grant aces to opponents that replay has shown that said ace was actually a fault.

[Jahu]

socal, don't desert me man

[Henman Bill]

Just to note once points for the AO are deducted Federer and Warwinka are basically on a par. Warwinka could be the Swiss no 1. If he outperforms Federer at the AO, this is likely.

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