Ireland World cup bid.

First topic message reminder :

Don't know if this has come up before, but its the first I'm learning that Ireland are bidding for the 2023 World cup

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/government-to-consider-rugby-world-cup-bid-1.1598136

I do like that it says
The next finals will take place in England in 2015 and the one after that will be held in Japan in 2019. and he says "“It is the northern hemisphere’s turn in 2023"

Japan moved to the southern Hemp?

World cups are getting bigger and bigger events. NZ held the last one and it was though that it would prob be to big an event in the future for them to be able to host, by 2023 would it maybe be to big for Ireland?

I'd love Ireland to win it, but for the sake of rugby the US-Canada joint bid may be the better one. After hosting USA 94, nearly 20 years ago football has grown there and I think the 3rd most popular sport in the US, (there was a lot of work done after the WC to grow this). Could rugby grow as something similar if hosting the 2023 comp?

Then again Japan are hosting it in 2019 to grow the sport there and maybe it should return to an established Nation like Ireland, can't always select countries to grow the game and not play it in Countries that already love the game?

The big bit for hosting it is the decision of the GAA at its last congress to make its grounds available for the rugby world cup has given a huge boost to the bid.

Final in Croke Park, Casement Park in Belfast will be a 40,000 all seater stadium by then.

With the GAA on board there are plenty of suitable stadiums available, think Ireland could host a very successful World cup, and it would be a real boost for Rugby here.

Imho growing the game could depend more on the Olympics than a World Cup being hosted

SA95 was 20 years ago. It was a amateur sport and SA hosted it on its own (no tournament until then and until 2003 was hosted in a sole country).  Guns in the end we can never agree

We'll say the following

Population - 50MM (3rd highest in world rugby).
Registered rugby players - 750,000 (2nd highest in world rugby).
Domestic rugby attendance - 28,000 per game (1st in world rugby).
No. of football/rugby stadiums over 40,000 capacity - 12.
Proven hosts of major tournaments - 95 RWC, FIFA world cup 2010. Cup of Nations 1996 & 2013.

and yet you'll say, rubbish, SA will get no support, its got huge crime and its an awful choice.

If thats what you think, thats fine.

If SA apply and are chosen then thats great, if someone else is chosen on merit over the above case, thats fine too. But given the recent history of the FIFA world cup, the Africa cup of nations successes etc I think we have a strong bid.

Well it depends what the general consensus is over what makes a good world cup?

Expansion of the game?
revenue for IRB?
Party atmosphere (aka fan experience)?

I dont think jurisdiction has much bearing on IRB revenue so forget about that. Ireland has more potential for expansion of the game as it is closer to more up and coming regions such as eastern europe and North America than SA.

I genuinely believe that Ireland because of its compact size and excellent record in hospitality could produce a bigger party than anywhere.

Finally why should it be given to SA twice before other nations who have just as long if not a longer history of playing rugby union are given the opportunity?

Guns, Africa has big potential, becase they are poorer countries does not mean there is no potential.

Hosting is by continent, not country.

Besides, SA won't be the first country to host it twice..

Biltong wrote:Guns, Africa has big potential, becase they are poorer countries does not mean there is no potential.

Hosting is by continent, not country.

Besides, SA won't be the first country to host it twice..

Outright they would actually.

Yes there is potential. There are also poorer countries in Eastern Europe with potential.

NZ shared the cup with AUS because of the financial risk of making guarantees to IRB. After Japan2019, the IRB are going to be looking for a big guarantee.

I would love to go watch a world cup in ireland, but the accommodation and stadia options leave quite a lot to be desired currently, so maybe 2027 would be more realistic? it would generate a lot of revenue for the irish economy and tourism which would be great too.

Biltong wrote:2023 South Africa.

Cant handle another month of vuvuzelas

IronMike wrote:

Biltong wrote:2023 South Africa.

Cant handle another month of vuvuzelas

its rugby, not soccer.

quinsforever wrote:NZ shared the cup with AUS because of the financial risk of making guarantees to IRB. After Japan2019, the IRB are going to be looking for a big guarantee.

I would love to go watch a world cup in ireland, but the accommodation and stadia options leave quite a lot to be desired currently, so maybe 2027 would be more realistic? it would generate a lot of revenue for the irish economy and tourism which would be great too.

What do you know about the accomodation and stadia? Please summarise how they "leave a lot to be desired"?

If you consider that Ireland has held the Ryder cup in Kildare and the Irish Open in Portrush in which both events catered for 100k plus visitors over a short period I see no reason why accomodation would be an issue? Thats proven to be untrue. Stadia would need upgrading but the majority of RWCs have required Stadia upgrades and the key upgrades are in the North which are subject to UK funding. Plans are already under way.

geoff998rugby wrote:Ireland issue is a number of the big GAA stadiums are in locations where accomodation numbers are very limited.

Also reference to stadia yet to be built.
Casement Park for example - I think it is still very debateable if this will every be completed.

They're supposed to be thinking of using GAA stadiums (other than Croker) in Cork (loads of hotel rooms), Galway (ditto), Killarney (tourism capital of the south so ditto), Thurles mightn't be a tourist hotspot with loads of hotel rooms but it's not very far from Limerick (ditto re hotel rooms). And if Casement Park Mk 2 is built then there's six GAA stadiums with large capacities plus Lansdowne for big matches, with Thomond, RDS, Ravenhill for games involving smaller countries. Don't think hotel capacity is going to be deciding factor

Philip browne (irfu) is on today fm shortly to discuss bid.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Russia was used for the Sevens World Championship no doubt to grow the game but all they grew was a lemon and some egg blew on the IRB's face.

Much will depend on the success of Japan if the IRB is prepared to venture into new markets. If the tournament is a financial and overall success it might encourage ventures into places like Argentina. If it doesn't go well then probably 2027 will be a more traditional venue as 2023 will have already been decided. The thing is will the IRB hedge their bets that Japan is a success or will they plan for the possibility that it might be a failure in terms of crowd support?

My understanding from back when it was arranged was that England was being given the 2015 RWC to boost the IRB coffers so they could take the risk of hosting the event in a new location like Japan.  That would have been good forward planning, boosting the reserves in advance of trying to establish a new market instead of taking the leap and then scrambling if they didn't cover their costs (raise the funds necessary to sustain/promote rugby worldwide).

The biggest TV audiences are in Britain and France and since they're next door kickoff times could be set to suit them. There'd also be large travelling support from the 4 neighbouring nations and Italy a short flight away. As well as all the Aussie and Kiwi barmen in England.

Surely and Irish RWC could be just as much a cash cow as an English one?

And you don't have the problem we've had with the English and French RWC's where the clubs start making threats and demands in the lead up to their nation hosting it.

Feckless Rogue wrote:The biggest TV audiences are in Britain and France and since they're next door kickoff times could be set to suit them. There'd also be large travelling support from the 4 neighbouring nations and Italy a short flight away. As well as all the Aussie and Kiwi barmen in England.

Surely and Irish RWC could be just as much a cash cow as an English one?

And you don't have the problem we've had with the English and French RWC's where the clubs start making threats and demands in the lead up to their nation hosting it.

Have you been in a bar in England recently FR. They're all Eastern European behind the bars now.

Feckless Rogue wrote:The biggest TV audiences are in Britain and France and since they're next door kickoff times could be set to suit them. There'd also be large travelling support from the 4 neighbouring nations and Italy a short flight away. As well as all the Aussie and Kiwi barmen in England.

Surely and Irish RWC could be just as much a cash cow as an English one?

And you don't have the problem we've had with the English and French RWC's where the clubs start making threats and demands in the lead up to their nation hosting it.

Timezone wise SA would also get the games at a convenient TV audience time, and from memory they are the main watchers of S15 market in SH.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:The biggest TV audiences are in Britain and France and since they're next door kickoff times could be set to suit them. There'd also be large travelling support from the 4 neighbouring nations and Italy a short flight away. As well as all the Aussie and Kiwi barmen in England.

Surely and Irish RWC could be just as much a cash cow as an English one?

And you don't have the problem we've had with the English and French RWC's where the clubs start making threats and demands in the lead up to their nation hosting it.

Have you been in a bar in England recently FR. They're all Eastern European behind the bars now.

Bloody immigrants. Takin' other immigrants jobs.

 

I'd love to see a world cup in Ireland, Argentina or Italy. I think SA, Australia and France will be lining up for another. Ireland would be great, especially if all the games are played on the Isle (please, please, don't flog another game off to the Britain). Italy's got to have a show. South Africa is also a sentimental favourite. Especially given 2015 and 2019 are in the Northern hemisphere.

It would be awesome, tbh.

geoff998rugby wrote:Didn't forget just don't have talk of infrastructure development getting past the talking stage, both North and South of the border.

As an example I mentioned Casement - highly questionable it will be rebuilt.
In 10 years time we may just have got beyond the planning arguements

Remember the Maze Stadium - was going to be a brand new state of the art ground for 35,000. Where is it now?

I don't know why your being so pessimistic over Casement. Ok some residents are complaining but the same happened the Aviva stadium and nearly any other stadium, i have no doubts it wil be built. Windsor is questionable due to IFA infighting among clubs.

There was a legal challange but this was resolved

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/legal-challenge-over-70m-casement-park-redevelopment-is-settled-29735658.html

The New Casement Park does look very impressive in that rendering.

Plenty of stadiums in Ireland

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stadiums_in_Ireland_by_capacity

If you don't want to read it, for reference Munsters home Thomond is only 18th, RDS 28th.

GAA has confirmed already that they can be used.

To be honest this is the biggest event that Ireland can ever hope to host (ok the football World cup did go to Qatar which has a population the size of N,Ireland and landmass smaller than the Falkand islands, but we could never afford to bride a football world cup).

As a nation we'd pull out all stops to host it.

although it seems only 3 of those stadiums have seating capacity over 30,000?? I think a lot of changes would be required to bring them up to the required standard.

SA for instance has over 12 with 40,000 seated.

Had a quick look at the capacities of New Zealand, England and Ireland's top 8 stadia (listed for the RWC), and pleasantly surprised that we are closer to England then New Zealand. The big element is getting enough seating versus standing "seats". Maybe I was wrong, that might be a possibility after all....

Also, as a mayoman who played a couple of underage county finals at McHale Park, the thought of seeing Tonga- Argentina at McHale Park sends shivers down my spine...

wolfball wrote:Had a quick look at the capacities of New Zealand, England and Ireland's top 8 stadia (listed for the RWC), and pleasantly surprised that we are closer to England then New Zealand. The big element is getting enough seating versus standing "seats". Maybe I was wrong, that might be a possibility after all....

But isn't the point that most of those capacities are standing?

Only 3 stadiums show as having capacity above 30,000. You can't have a RWC in the modern era in standing stadiums.

Or is the wiki information incorrect... I would have no idea to be honest.

South Africa stadiums.

Soccer City 94 700
Ellispark 62 567
Odi Stadium 60 000
Mmabatho Stadium 59 000
Capetown Stadium 56 000
Moses Mabhida Stadium 55 000
Kingspark Stadium 52 000
Loftus 51 762
Newlands 51 100
Nelson Mandela bay Stadium 48 459
Royal Bafokeng 42 000
Peter Mokaba Stadium 41 733
Mbombela Stadium 40 929
Free State Stadium 40 911
Orlando Stadium 40 000

There are another 7 stadiums with 30 000 to 40 000 capacity.

fa0019 wrote:

wolfball wrote:Had a quick look at the capacities of New Zealand, England and Ireland's top 8 stadia (listed for the RWC), and pleasantly surprised that we are closer to England then New Zealand. The big element is getting enough seating versus standing "seats". Maybe I was wrong, that might be a possibility after all....

But isn't the point that most of those capacities are standing?

Only 3 stadiums show as having capacity above 30,000. You can't have a RWC in the modern era in standing stadiums.

Or is the wiki information incorrect... I would have no idea to be honest.

I'd love to be standing on a proper terrace of supporters for RWC game, the atmosphere would be brilliant.

Biltong wrote:South Africa stadiums.

Soccer City 94 700
Ellispark 62 567
Odi Stadium 60 000
Mmabatho Stadium 59 000
Capetown Stadium 56 000
Moses Mabhida Stadium 55 000
Kingspark Stadium 52 000
Loftus 51 762
Newlands 51 100
Nelson Mandela bay Stadium 48 459
Royal Bafokeng 42 000
Peter Mokaba Stadium 41 733
Mbombela Stadium 40 929
Free State Stadium 40 911
Orlando Stadium 40 000

There are another 7 stadiums with 30 000 to 40 000 capacity.

Are you proposing a joint bid Biltong?  It would be great to tee that up and accidentally give a scheduling nightmare to England, Wales, Oz and NZ alternating matches spread between Ireland and SA.

Yeah, why not.

Fa, thats a good point. If we redo the irish list with stadia by seated seats (including those whose development is already predicted leaving aside any RWC bid), we get the balow. Still better then NZ, though we really would need a couple of other +30k seated stadia to be developed also.

Ireland Seated/Plans
Croke Park 70,000
Aviva Stadium 52,000
Páirc Uí Chaoimh 45,000
McHale Park 42,000
Casement Park 40,000
Semple Stadium 26,000
Gaelic Grounds 24,000
RDS 23,000

Average Size 40,250

Not as outlandish as it might first appear.  We certainly have the infrastructure to match New Zealand and by 2023, we'd HOPE to be out of our present slump and back on the road to growth and with a renewed confidence and ability to improve stadia that would need improving.

Certain nations get most if not all large sporting events not simply because they have the infrastructure but out of tradition and hidden and deep contacts working on an "I'll scratch your back and then you scratch mine"

The Rugby World Cup is one of the few world sporting events that is still and will still be small enough to be manageable for a small nation to hold.... and to make it a sucess.

I do tire when I hear people suggest we should now ship the competition out to other nations (US, Japan, perhaps Russia) to 'grow' the sport.

Why?  Why should sucessful nations in their own right, successful sporting nations in their own right, nations that have the capacity and have all too often held large world sporting events, be so naturally on everyone's lips again for the hosting of yet another world sporting event?

Because they have the expertise?  Not a great excuse for throwing yet another money generating junket their way.  It is up to these nations to grow their rugby from within and they have oodles of resources to do so if they were so inclined.  They don't need yet more auspicious events dropped on their doorstep to 'help them out'.

Help Ireland out instead and give us something to plan for and look forward to hosting for a change.  I have no doubt that we would do it well and take on board all the expertise such an event would need.  

I usually laugh off these ideas that crop up from time to time in Ireland.  We are restricted by size in many ventures but this one does seem a viable idea.  Why not seek it?  We've been lying down now for long enough after the financial collapse.  Time to get up and walk again.

Biltong, I don't think anyone doubts whether South Africa can host, I am sure you could host it easily. It's more answering the question, 1. Can Ireland host solo? 2. Should it go to us? We need to make sure 1 is true, and with the capacities listed above, I think it is. Now we need to battle South Africa, Italy, France on point 2....    

Ireland is going down the pan on and off the pitch but this would be fantastic. We could jack up the price of beer and make a bomb selling stuffed leprechauns and guinness merchandise. Ryanair will make a killing too.

Ireland 2023 has a nice ring to it.

Bomb Selling Stuffed Leprechauns is just going way too far, Rodders!!!!

Now stop it this instant or I'll be forced to call the mods.

 

   

Oops... one lep just gone out of business.  Try selling St. Patrick skulls instead, guys...it's safer.

My lovely lovely lovely horse.
My lovely horse (my lovely horse), Running through the field (running through the field).
Where are you going, With your fetlocks blowing In the wind?
I want to shower you with sugarlumps. And ride you over fences. Polish your hooves every single day. And bring you to the horse dentist.
My lovely lovely lovely horse.
My lovely horse (my lovely horse), You’re a pony no more (you’re a pony no more). Running around, with a man on your back, like a train in the night…
Like a train in the night.

Cyril wrote:My lovely lovely lovely horse.
My lovely horse (my lovely horse), Running through the field (running through the field).
Where are you going, With your fetlocks blowing In the wind?
I want to shower you with sugarlumps. And ride you over fences. Polish your hooves every single day. And bring you to the horse dentist.
My lovely lovely lovely horse.
My lovely horse (my lovely horse), You’re a pony no more (you’re a pony no more). Running around, with a man on your back, like a train in the night…
Like a train in the night.

Singing that back in my head has made my day (oh for the little things in life).

I agree, defo Christie Moore's best song.

Croke park holds 82 000 ?

Another aspect of RWC selection seems to be going places where the is no need for vast building costs. For that reason I think Italy is unlikley. Their grounds are crumbling, and they were hoping for Euro 2016 to provide the impetus to rebuild. Even Inter Milan are talking about leaving the San Siro. Rugby WC want to France in 2007 capitalising on the investments in 98. It'll no doubt make good use of the grounds built in Japan for 2002. With Euro 2016 France is spending big on grounds again. Even in England the RWC couldn't happen without help from football. I think therefore that Ireland and France are the NH favourites for 2023, maybe even Russia (using assets from 2018), if SH then I reckon SA. If Italy get Euro 2024, their grounds wont be ready for 2023.  The RWC is not by a long way big enough to generate vast infrastructure projects.

One thing that puzzled me though was that the Telegraph article said other likely bidders were SA, France, Italy and .... Brazil. Eh?

There's also a tendency to stick to the tier one test playing nations - SA and Ireland would look most likely given France hosted in 2007.

By the looks of it, Ireland will need to spend a lot of money on updating the stadia. Would it be less then the 800MM euro windfall they expect to see (thats total economy not the IRFU)?

I imagine its probably a good way of stimulating the economy anyhow and bringing infrastructure up to date with the added bonus of getting instant added revenue... albeit not necessarily to those who input the finance to bring the country and stadia to tournament standard.

Do we though? 5 stadiums at 40k plus with a few between 25 and 30k.

The big issue would be come the KO stages only Croke park would be big enough.

I'm a believer, I think it could be done.....its a much more realistic prospect than beating the ABs and sure that game is going ahead ......

rodders wrote:Do we though? 5 stadiums at 40k plus with a few between 25 and 30k.

The big issue would be come the KO stages only Croke park would be big enough.

I'm a believer, I think it could be done.....its a much more realistic prospect than beating the ABs and sure that game is going ahead ......

3 over 30,000 seated... the rest is standing. This isn't the 1970s... standing stadia is not going to hold it with the IRB.

Sure throwing out a few deckchairs is hardly a big job .... 

rodders wrote:Sure throwing out a few deckchairs is hardly a big job .... 

It is when an Irish builder is giving you a quote though!!

I have to repeat Casement Park getting the go ahead is far from certain.

1. - Subject to legal challanges; the locals are revoluting.
2. - Doesn't come close to having adequate traffic facilities.
The Andy Town road is a nightmare, on a Saturday afternoon, even when there isn't a match, 40,000 would bring West Belfast to a standstill.
3. - he money for it is starting to look wobbly due to the idiots in local soccer muddying the waters.

It cannot be assured

fa0019 wrote:

rodders wrote:Sure throwing out a few deckchairs is hardly a big job .... 

It is when an Irish builder is giving you a quote though!!

Ah here now! Them's top o the range deckchairs we're talking about!

geoff998rugby wrote:I have to repeat Casement Park getting the go ahead is far from certain.

1. - Subject to legal challanges; the locals are revoluting.
2. - Doesn't come close to having adequate traffic facilities.
The Andy Town road is a nightmare, on a Saturday afternoon, even when there isn't a match, 40,000 would bring West Belfast to a standstill.
3. - he money for it is starting to look wobbly due to the idiots in local soccer muddying the waters.

It cannot be assured

Ah come on now Geoff this is your standard politically driven white elephant project we're talking about, since when did local residents concerns, or logistical issues ever get in the way of those!

rodders wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

rodders wrote:Sure throwing out a few deckchairs is hardly a big job .... 

It is when an Irish builder is giving you a quote though!!

Ah here now! Them's top o the range deckchairs we're talking about!

That sounds like a salesman in SA now... a few years back I went into a store to buy cushions for deck chairs. Asking an African saleswoman if they sold any she said "yes, come this way".. Showed me some cushions on an actual garden suite.

I asked, these cushions are for sale, independently of the suite? "Yes of course"... so I asked how much they were.. she said r15,000 which was about £1500 euro at the time.

r15,000 for a few cushions I asked!!... "yes but you get the garden suite for free too" was the retort she gave me.

To this day I'm not sure if she was pulling my leg or actually serious (total deadpan face). True story.