New European Rugby cup (or whatever it is called) - Qualification agreed

by Gibson Tue 19 Nov 2013, 2:30 pm

First topic message reminder :

But didn't the WRU and its regions capitulate and join their English Masters? Have they done a U-turn now? Looks like it.

Unless they want to hype up the Low Value Cup...

by SecretFly Wed 20 Nov 2013, 1:19 pm

mystiroakey wrote:Sorry mate- but call it imperialism or whatever you want- but I trust English businessmen over the rest of your lot.

The ERC has a track record of underacheiving

Your patriotism becomes you Wink

Now perhaps afford others the same rights to theirs?

The ERC have a track record that made BT interested in acquiring it, and PRL interested in selling it (under the sheets, when their partners in ERC weren't looking) Someone might call such a venture embezzlement

by geoff998rugby Wed 20 Nov 2013, 1:23 pm

mystiroakey wrote:Sorry mate- but call it imperialism or whatever you want- but I trust English businessmen over the rest of your lot.

The ERC has a track record of underacheiving

Its called arrogance, which the PRL have displayed in spades, and you wonder why its gets other peoples backs up.
We know best attitude went out with empire.

by mystiroakey Wed 20 Nov 2013, 1:29 pm

No i dont wonder- I know it gets others backs up.

by quinsforever Wed 20 Nov 2013, 1:30 pm

ERC had fupp all to do with the success of HC.

Content most important (big clubs with globally recognised players beating seven bells out of each other and national-rivalry-by-proxy)

Clubs second (increase in professionalism and money of clubs has allowed big names from all over the world to play for all teams)

Broadcaster third (SKY did a good job i think)

ERC last - they are convener only.

Does anyone really think that the reason the 6Nations is successful and a big money maker is because of the 6Nations admin group in Dublin?

by mystiroakey Wed 20 Nov 2013, 1:34 pm

Rugby Union is the key factor into why it is successful,

but the fact that it(6 nations) is so successful and the ERC isn't tells me something is seriously wrong. The CL is coming close to out stripping the EC in football.

The 6 nations gets such a variety of audience- My mum even watches it!

by geoff998rugby Wed 20 Nov 2013, 1:37 pm

The 6N is so successfully because:

1 - It has tradition behind it
2 - International Rugby is still seen as the pinancle of the sport

If clubs run things the last will go by the board, as it has in soccer, and the game as a whole will be poorer for it

by Sin é Wed 20 Nov 2013, 1:38 pm

The Unions has everything to do with the success of the Heineken Cup.
The ERC is made up of the Unions.

Why can you not understand that?

by mystiroakey Wed 20 Nov 2013, 1:40 pm

That is true to an extent- but we dont know for a fact that rugby will be poorer for it.

I am proud oif the fact the international rugby is the pinnacle.

The fear however is that eventually clubs will rule anyway- but foreign clubs will rule first

by quinsforever Wed 20 Nov 2013, 1:40 pm

I agree Mystir.

What if the changes proposed by the PRL/LNR had been incorporated years ago into the HC? my bet is it would have been a far greater success than it is now. I think the ERC, and the status quo bias, has seriously held it back compared to where it should be. impossible to prove either way, i know. but so are statements about how well the ERC has done. there is just nothing to compare it to without going to alternative sports.

by quinsforever Wed 20 Nov 2013, 1:42 pm

geoff998rugby wrote:The 6N is so successfully because:

1 - It has tradition behind it
2 - International Rugby is still seen as the pinancle of the sport

If clubs run things the last will go by the board, as it has in soccer, and the game as a whole will be poorer for it

club football has ALWAYS dominated international football. 100 years ago, they would get 100,000+ people standing at club cup matches in football. There was precious little international football back then.

by Jenifer McLadyboy Wed 20 Nov 2013, 1:43 pm

mystiroakey wrote:Rugby Union is the key factor into why it is successful,

but the fact that it(6 nations) is so successful and the ERC isn't tells me something is seriously wrong. The CL is coming close to out stripping the EC in football.

The 6 nations gets such a variety of audience- My mum even watches it!

Rugby is all about tradition.

125 years of tradition behind the 6N. Over 100 behind the T14. Probably about 30 behind the Premiership. 18 Behind the HC. Rabo only 11.

No clue about soccer as I rarely if ever watch it. Don't hate it or anything, just that all but the very top games bore me.

As I understand it. (and feel totally free to correct me if I am wrong) Money has inflated the club game to outstrip the Intl game. Not sure I am a fan of going down that road and having the players earning the mad sums they do in soccer.

by quinsforever Wed 20 Nov 2013, 1:43 pm

and so i think international rugby will ALWAYS be preferred over club rugby.

it's the tradition that makes it so.

but club rugby in england and france have tradition on their sides, and in the NH only Ireland does too.

by SecretFly Wed 20 Nov 2013, 1:44 pm

quinsforever wrote:ERC had fupp all to do with the success of HC.

Content most important (big clubs with globally recognised players beating seven bells out of each other and national-rivalry-by-proxy)

Clubs second (increase in professionalism and money of clubs has allowed big names from all over the world to play for all teams)

Broadcaster third (SKY did a good job i think)

ERC last - they are convener only.

Does anyone really think that the reason the 6Nations is successful and a big money maker is because of the 6Nations admin group in Dublin?

You say all that and you're wrong. I say so Imperialistically Wink

You are wrong...for if ERC are last in a long list of reasons for success then what makes PRL/BT think they'd have been ranked higher?

McCafferty certainly didn't expect or plan for his new plush controlling office and company to be last in any new list. ERC control the fruits of the labour on the field. McCafferty wanted that control. Power is power and power was with the ERC.
McCafferty wanted the seat of power not to look out across his night-light cityscapes whilst having a cigar and an end of day whiskey.......... no, he wanted it because that's the seat of power.... not the players, the coaches, the sponsors or the bums on seats.

BTW? Dublin? Is that what all this is about? Doesn't matter where ERC is, it's the administration of rugby competitions we're talking about?? Or are we? Suddenly the cat seems to be coming out of the bag and 'Nation' is all of a sudden becoming much more important than it once was in this debate....... Whistle

by Sin é Wed 20 Nov 2013, 1:45 pm

The 6Ns is successful because everyone identifies with who is playing. You don't have to pick sides and actually select a team to support. Very handy for the casual viewer.

Probably why Ireland is far more successful with the structure of their club teams. If you are from Ulster, Leinster etc. you will automatically support the team where you are from. In fact, its considered as poor form not to support your province etc.

by quinsforever Wed 20 Nov 2013, 1:46 pm

Sin é wrote:The Unions has everything to do with the success of the Heineken Cup.
The ERC is made up of the Unions.

Why can you not understand that?

sin, this is a completely meaningless statement.

what you are saying is everyone involved has everything to do with the success of HC. so unions, prl, lnr and wrr. that is a tautology. but it says nothing about whether ERC the company has done a particularly good job or not. the unions and prl/lnr/wrr are not ERC. ERC is a private company. some of the former are shareholders in the latter. they are not one and the same.

by Dubbelyew L Overate Wed 20 Nov 2013, 1:47 pm

Sin é wrote:The Unions has everything to do with the success of the Heineken Cup.
The ERC is made up of the Unions.

Why can you not understand that?

The Unions have everything to do with the failure of the Amlin Cup.
The ERC is made up of the Unions.

Why can you not understand that?

by quinsforever Wed 20 Nov 2013, 1:48 pm

SecretFly wrote:
quinsforever wrote:ERC had fupp all to do with the success of HC.

Content most important (big clubs with globally recognised players beating seven bells out of each other and national-rivalry-by-proxy)

Clubs second (increase in professionalism and money of clubs has allowed big names from all over the world to play for all teams)

Broadcaster third (SKY did a good job i think)

ERC last - they are convener only.

Does anyone really think that the reason the 6Nations is successful and a big money maker is because of the 6Nations admin group in Dublin?
You say all that and you're wrong. I say so Imperialistically ;)You are wrong...for if ERC are last in a long list of reasons for success then what makes PRL/BT think they'd have been ranked higher?

McCafferty certainly didn't expect or plan for his new plush controlling office and company to be last in any new list. ERC control the fruits of the labour on the field. McCafferty wanted that control. Power is power and power was with the ERC.
McCafferty wanted the seat of power not to look out across his night-light cityscapes whilst having a cigar and an end of day whiskey.......... no, he wanted it because that's the seat of power.... not the players, the coaches, the sponsors or the bums on seats.

BTW? Dublin? Is that what all this is about? Doesn't matter where ERC is, it's the administration of rugby competitions we're talking about?? Or are we? Suddenly the cat seems to be coming out of the bag and 'Nation' is all of a sudden becoming much more important than it once was in this debate.......

calm down SF, i only mentioned Dublin to make it clear i am talking about the administrative 6Nations body as opposed to the competition itself as they both share a name. if it had a different name i wouldnt have mentioned Dublin. was trying to be clear. nothing to do with nationality at all.

by mystiroakey Wed 20 Nov 2013, 1:49 pm

Its in dublin due to it being a tax haven for sports admin, thats all.

It doesnt mean its Irish!!

by quinsforever Wed 20 Nov 2013, 1:50 pm

Sin é wrote:The 6Ns is successful because everyone identifies with who is playing. You don't have to pick sides and actually select a team to support. Very handy for the casual viewer.

Probably why Ireland is far more successful with the structure of their club teams. If you are from Ulster, Leinster etc. you will automatically support the team where you are from. In fact, its considered as poor form not to support your province etc.

agree 100% sin e. i think the irish, english and french clubs all benefit from this.

by geoff998rugby Wed 20 Nov 2013, 1:50 pm

quinsforever wrote:
geoff998rugby wrote:The 6N is so successfully because:

1 - It has tradition behind it
2 - International Rugby is still seen as the pinancle of the sport

If clubs run things the last will go by the board, as it has in soccer, and the game as a whole will be poorer for it
club football has ALWAYS dominated international football. 100 years ago, they would get 100,000+ people standing at club cup matches in football. There was precious little international football back then.

Not true in the 60's, and before, soccer Internationals remained the pinancle of the sport and the standard of the top International sides was higher than that of the top club sides - that is no longer the case.

Even in the 70's and 80's the case could be argued but come the 90's Internationals became a distraction for the top club teams and suffered as a result

by Guest Wed 20 Nov 2013, 1:56 pm

Folk appear to believe on the back of a newspaper article that a new HC is a done deal. There is a fair way to go yet.

No Rugby administrator ever gets off the gravy train. If this ends in the courts the Unions better have good Lawyers as EU competition directives will disrupt their proposals.

Sad state of affairs. Then again the French might just ignore euro Court judgements anyway.....

Goze has been very quiet but cant believe he hasnt been busy. The deciding factor has always been who owns the player contracts.

by quinsforever Wed 20 Nov 2013, 1:57 pm

Geoff, sorry to contradict you, but if you look at the home attendance records of football clubs, many of them are back in the 1930s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Record_home_attendances_of_English_football_clubs

there were only 5 or 6 international matches per year back then, 3 home championship games, and 2 or 3 friendlies.

the club football game has always always dwarfed the international game in england in money, attendance, everything. being selected for the national team is obviously the highest honour, but that has nothing to do with the mass viewing of the club game vs national game.

by Guest Wed 20 Nov 2013, 2:02 pm

Recwatcher wrote:Folk appear to believe on the back of a newspaper article that a new HC is a done deal. There is a fair way to go yet.

No Rugby administrator ever gets off the gravy train. If this ends in the courts the Unions better have good Lawyers as EU competition directives will disrupt their proposals.

Sad state of affairs. Then again the French might just ignore euro Court judgements anyway.....

Goze has been very quiet but cant believe he hasnt been busy. The deciding factor has always been who owns the player contracts.

If this ends in the Courts the PRL had better be prepared for no European rugby for years, and hope that the BT contract is big enough to pay cost.

by SecretFly Wed 20 Nov 2013, 2:02 pm

quinsforever wrote:calm down SF, i only mentioned Dublin to make it clear i am talking about the administrative 6Nations body as opposed to the competition itself as they both share a name. if it had a different name i wouldnt have mentioned Dublin. was trying to be clear. nothing to do with nationality at all.

I'm on valium as we speak Wink

Never forget that I enjoy debate... I'm always calm when I'm being judgemental, opinionated, Imperialistic and a sanctimonious prat.

Good for you on the 'Dublin' bit, quins Smile

Though I wouldn't have minded at all as it would have been just more petrol juice on this delightful ERC v PRL fire.

by quinsforever Wed 20 Nov 2013, 2:02 pm

Recwatcher wrote:Folk appear to believe on the back of a newspaper article that a new HC is a done deal. There is a fair way to go yet.

No Rugby administrator ever gets off the gravy train. If this ends in the courts the Unions better have good Lawyers as EU competition directives will disrupt their proposals.

Sad state of affairs. Then again the French might just ignore euro Court judgements anyway.....

Goze has been very quiet but cant believe he hasnt been busy. The deciding factor has always been who owns the player contracts.

i happen to agree Rec, but am resigned to, and fairly happy about, PRL not going back into ERC.

let the chips fall where they may. and i hope for the celtic union's sakes they have their "new" HC-sans anglais nicely buttoned up or it may not turn out to be all they are currently hoping for.

by geoff998rugby Wed 20 Nov 2013, 2:03 pm

But International soccer was seen as the pinnacle of the game back then both in terms of achievement and in terms of quality.

That is what we will lose if clubs run the game

by geoff998rugby Wed 20 Nov 2013, 2:04 pm

I see the Welsh Regions will be in attendance at Thursday's meeting.
They weren't at the last meeting

Rejoining the fold perhaps?

by mystiroakey Wed 20 Nov 2013, 2:05 pm

No we(Rugby union) wont necessarily lose that. You are just being sceptical and midly paranoid about a different future

by SecretFly Wed 20 Nov 2013, 2:05 pm

mystiroakey wrote:Its in dublin due to it being a tax haven for sports admin, thats all.

It doesnt mean its Irish!!

MY point exactly, mystir! Well spoken, man! Although your exclamation marks advise me that you'd make a bit of a song and dance of it if it was 'Irish'.

Oh by the way.... it is a bit Irish.... and even a bit English. Although the English bit of it is being swept under the carpet at the moment..

by quinsforever Wed 20 Nov 2013, 2:08 pm

geoff998rugby wrote:But International soccer was seen as the pinnacle of the game back then both in terms of achievement and in terms of quality.

That is what we will lose if clubs run the game

as soon as TV and air travel arrived, so too did foreign players to the richest clubs. didnt affect the popularity of either club or international game, although it definitely raised the standard of club football in the richest leagues.

professional rugby is already the same way. Toulon would probably be top 2 in the world as a national team in my opinion. so what? does it affect the popularity or preeminence of international rugby? not a bit. If anything it makes the names of foreign players more widely known and generates interest in international matches where one's own nation isnt competing but one's club players are. that's certainly how it is for me.

by SecretFly Wed 20 Nov 2013, 2:09 pm

Recwatcher wrote:

No Rugby administrator ever gets off the gravy train. If this ends in the courts the Unions better have good Lawyers as EU competition directives will disrupt their proposals.

I'd guess both PRL and BT will want to hire expensive ones too as selling what you don't own can be a difficult one to explain in court.

by quinsforever Wed 20 Nov 2013, 2:11 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Recwatcher wrote:

No Rugby administrator ever gets off the gravy train. If this ends in the courts the Unions better have good Lawyers as EU competition directives will disrupt their proposals.

I'd guess both PRL and BT will want to hire expensive ones too as selling what you don't own can be a difficult one to explain in court.

SF, according to well established legal doctrine, no defense is needed for contracting to sell something that doesnt come to exist. it's got a fancy latin name. i could defend that one, and i've only ever been in court because my dog nibbled a postman!

by geoff998rugby Wed 20 Nov 2013, 2:13 pm

quinsforever wrote:
geoff998rugby wrote:But International soccer was seen as the pinnacle of the game back then both in terms of achievement and in terms of quality.

That is what we will lose if clubs run the game
as soon as TV and air travel arrived, so too did foreign players to the richest clubs. didnt affect the popularity of either club or international game, although it definitely raised the standard of club football in the richest leagues.

professional rugby is already the same way. Toulon would probably be top 2 in the world as a national team in my opinion. so what? does it affect the popularity or preeminence of international rugby? not a bit. If anything it makes the names of foreign players more widely known and generates interest in international matches where one's own nation isnt competing but one's club players are. that's certainly how it is for me.

Foreign players did not kick in soccer wise until well into the 80's

When Ardlies (sp?) and Villa joined Spurs in in 1980 or so they were only superceeded by the two lads at Ipswich.
It was the Premership that led to the big influx.
You seem to be going on about popularity but avoiding the quality and esteem points - they are not one of the same thing.

As for Toulon they would get nowhere neat NZ or SA.
Ulster could beat Toulon they couldn't beat NZ or SA and probably a couple of other nations

by SecretFly Wed 20 Nov 2013, 2:13 pm

quinsforever wrote:
geoff998rugby wrote:But International soccer was seen as the pinnacle of the game back then both in terms of achievement and in terms of quality.

That is what we will lose if clubs run the game
as soon as TV and air travel arrived, so too did foreign players to the richest clubs. didnt affect the popularity of either club or international game, although it definitely raised the standard of club football in the richest leagues.

professional rugby is already the same way. Toulon would probably be top 2 in the world as a national team in my opinion. so what? does it affect the popularity or preeminence of international rugby? not a bit. If anything it makes the names of foreign players more widely known and generates interest in international matches where one's own nation isnt competing but one's club players are. that's certainly how it is for me.

As long as the bulk of those foreign players are playing in AP or Top14. That's the goal, that's the ticket, that's the lure. And we'll all chip into that big centralised party by buying Leicester shirts because three of our lads play for them... Grand vision that.

by quinsforever Wed 20 Nov 2013, 2:18 pm

geoff998rugby wrote:
quinsforever wrote:
geoff998rugby wrote:But International soccer was seen as the pinnacle of the game back then both in terms of achievement and in terms of quality.

That is what we will lose if clubs run the game
as soon as TV and air travel arrived, so too did foreign players to the richest clubs. didnt affect the popularity of either club or international game, although it definitely raised the standard of club football in the richest leagues.

professional rugby is already the same way. Toulon would probably be top 2 in the world as a national team in my opinion. so what? does it affect the popularity or preeminence of international rugby? not a bit. If anything it makes the names of foreign players more widely known and generates interest in international matches where one's own nation isnt competing but one's club players are. that's certainly how it is for me.
Foreign players did not kick in soccer wise until well into the 80's

When Ardlies (sp?) and Villa joined Spurs in in 1980 or so they were only superceeded by the two lads at Ipswich.
It was the Premership that led to the big influx.
You seem to be going on about popularity but avoiding the quality and esteem points - they are not one of the same thing.

As for Toulon they would get nowhere neat NZ or SA.
Ulster could beat Toulon they couldn't beat NZ or SA and probably a couple of other nations

yes they did. scots and welsh and northern irish and irish players have long played for the big clubs in the english leagues. way before the 80s.

by SecretFly Wed 20 Nov 2013, 2:19 pm

quinsforever wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Recwatcher wrote:

No Rugby administrator ever gets off the gravy train. If this ends in the courts the Unions better have good Lawyers as EU competition directives will disrupt their proposals.

I'd guess both PRL and BT will want to hire expensive ones too as selling what you don't own can be a difficult one to explain in court.
SF, according to well established legal doctrine, no defense is needed for contracting to sell something that doesnt come to exist. it's got a fancy latin name. i could defend that one, and i've only ever been in court because my dog nibbled a postman!

A fancy Latin name will, I'm afraid, not get you past the righteous anger of the owner who didn't ask you to sell his car to his neighbour. Or indeed, it won't help you out in trying to legitimise the notion that you were within your rights to give him only some of the profits of the car sale, as you yourself deserve more for doing the selling negotiations on his behalf - without his consent.

by quinsforever Wed 20 Nov 2013, 2:20 pm

your opinion re toulon geoff. mine's just different. have you seen the calibre of their 1st choice team? eye-watering.

by geoff998rugby Wed 20 Nov 2013, 2:20 pm

For Ulster the best 23 would include:
14 players who have come through our academy
4 other Irish players who learnt their trade elsewhere
1 players who will qualify through residency
4 foreigners.

The day that is 14 foreigners and only 4 academy players would be the day I no longer go

by quinsforever Wed 20 Nov 2013, 2:21 pm

SecretFly wrote:
quinsforever wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Recwatcher wrote:

No Rugby administrator ever gets off the gravy train. If this ends in the courts the Unions better have good Lawyers as EU competition directives will disrupt their proposals.

I'd guess both PRL and BT will want to hire expensive ones too as selling what you don't own can be a difficult one to explain in court.
SF, according to well established legal doctrine, no defense is needed for contracting to sell something that doesnt come to exist. it's got a fancy latin name. i could defend that one, and i've only ever been in court because my dog nibbled a postman!
A fancy Latin name will, I'm afraid, not get you past the righteous anger of the owner who didn't ask you to sell his car to his neighbour. Or indeed, it won't help you out in trying to legitimise the notion that you were within your rights to give him only some of the profits of the car sale, as you yourself deserve more for doing the selling negotiations on his behalf - without his consent.

aint no owner of something that never existed SF. or are you saying that BT has the rights to show the ERC games?

by SecretFly Wed 20 Nov 2013, 2:21 pm

quinsforever wrote:
geoff998rugby wrote:
quinsforever wrote:
geoff998rugby wrote:But International soccer was seen as the pinnacle of the game back then both in terms of achievement and in terms of quality.

That is what we will lose if clubs run the game
as soon as TV and air travel arrived, so too did foreign players to the richest clubs. didnt affect the popularity of either club or international game, although it definitely raised the standard of club football in the richest leagues.

professional rugby is already the same way. Toulon would probably be top 2 in the world as a national team in my opinion. so what? does it affect the popularity or preeminence of international rugby? not a bit. If anything it makes the names of foreign players more widely known and generates interest in international matches where one's own nation isnt competing but one's club players are. that's certainly how it is for me.
Foreign players did not kick in soccer wise until well into the 80's

When Ardlies (sp?) and Villa joined Spurs in in 1980 or so they were only superceeded by the two lads at Ipswich.
It was the Premership that led to the big influx.
You seem to be going on about popularity but avoiding the quality and esteem points - they are not one of the same thing.

As for Toulon they would get nowhere neat NZ or SA.
Ulster could beat Toulon they couldn't beat NZ or SA and probably a couple of other nations
yes they did. scots and welsh and northern irish and irish players have long played for the big clubs in the english leagues. way before the 80s.

Hmm, not so many of them now...is there? That's the projected future you're looking at. Serves some...certainly not others.

by quinsforever Wed 20 Nov 2013, 2:24 pm

i think even NZ would be wary of facing a well-drilled team side consisting of the below squad

http://www.itsrugby.co.uk/team-squad-toulon.html

anyway, you view provincial rugby as more developmental, i view club rugby as separate and worthy in its own right, while also enjoying the intl game. different strokes.

by geoff998rugby Wed 20 Nov 2013, 2:26 pm

quinsforever wrote:your opinion re toulon geoff. mine's just different. have you seen the calibre of their 1st choice team? eye-watering.

seen them we can beat them.

We won comfortably away to the 2nd placed team in the T14 this year
We beat the French champions twice last year
We got the better of the generally accepted best team in the league, over the last couple of years, the year before that

We would have no chance against NZ or SA

By the way Cardiff, an unexceptional Pro12 side, have beaten this year as already.

by geoff998rugby Wed 20 Nov 2013, 2:29 pm

quinsforever wrote:i think even NZ would be wary of facing a well-drilled team side consisting of the below squad

http://www.itsrugby.co.uk/team-squad-toulon.html

anyway, you view provincial rugby as more developmental, i view club rugby as separate and worthy in its own right, while also enjoying the intl game. different strokes.

You misunderstand - I do not consider Provincial rugby developmental
I do think it is worthy in ints own right

What I am not prepared to do is to sacrifice International rugby for the sake of Club rugby

by quinsforever Wed 20 Nov 2013, 2:30 pm

SecretFly wrote:
quinsforever wrote:
geoff998rugby wrote:
quinsforever wrote:
geoff998rugby wrote:But International soccer was seen as the pinnacle of the game back then both in terms of achievement and in terms of quality.

That is what we will lose if clubs run the game
as soon as TV and air travel arrived, so too did foreign players to the richest clubs. didnt affect the popularity of either club or international game, although it definitely raised the standard of club football in the richest leagues.

professional rugby is already the same way. Toulon would probably be top 2 in the world as a national team in my opinion. so what? does it affect the popularity or preeminence of international rugby? not a bit. If anything it makes the names of foreign players more widely known and generates interest in international matches where one's own nation isnt competing but one's club players are. that's certainly how it is for me.
Foreign players did not kick in soccer wise until well into the 80's

When Ardlies (sp?) and Villa joined Spurs in in 1980 or so they were only superceeded by the two lads at Ipswich.
It was the Premership that led to the big influx.
You seem to be going on about popularity but avoiding the quality and esteem points - they are not one of the same thing.

As for Toulon they would get nowhere neat NZ or SA.
Ulster could beat Toulon they couldn't beat NZ or SA and probably a couple of other nations
yes they did. scots and welsh and northern irish and irish players have long played for the big clubs in the english leagues. way before the 80s.
Hmm, not so many of them now...is there? That's the projected future you're looking at. Serves some...certainly not others.

eire were always fairly rubbish at football SF. just as the game has gotten more global, so that has become more apparent. they peaked briefly by qualifying for the world cup in 90 (england didnt that year LOL) and 94 under an english manager (charlton) using irish players happily plying their trade in the english 1st division as it then was. so arguably, that helped... Run

by quinsforever Wed 20 Nov 2013, 2:32 pm

geoff998rugby wrote:
quinsforever wrote:your opinion re toulon geoff. mine's just different. have you seen the calibre of their 1st choice team? eye-watering.
seen them we can beat them.

We won comfortably away to the 2nd placed team in the T14 this year
We beat the French champions twice last year
We got the better of the generally accepted best team in the league, over the last couple of years, the year before that

We would have no chance against NZ or SA

By the way Cardiff, an unexceptional Pro12 side, have beaten this year as already.

i dont want to say it but i'm going to. french sides just dont perform as well in HC as they do for home top14 games until they get to the knockout stages.

and i think that group of players would play at the best of their abilities given a shot at NZ, whereas Ulster play to the best of their abilities in HC already.

by quinsforever Wed 20 Nov 2013, 2:33 pm

geoff998rugby wrote:
quinsforever wrote:i think even NZ would be wary of facing a well-drilled team side consisting of the below squad

http://www.itsrugby.co.uk/team-squad-toulon.html

anyway, you view provincial rugby as more developmental, i view club rugby as separate and worthy in its own right, while also enjoying the intl game. different strokes.
You misunderstand - I do not consider Provincial rugby developmental
I do think it is worthy in ints own right

What I am not prepared to do is to sacrifice International rugby for the sake of Club rugby

it's only an either/or in your personal doomsday scenario Geoff.

by geoff998rugby Wed 20 Nov 2013, 2:34 pm

English International soccer has gone down the tube since the influx of a large % of foreign players.

Contrast that with Spain and Germany were the majority of players in the senior league remain home grown

by quinsforever Wed 20 Nov 2013, 2:34 pm

anyhoo, have to do a bit of work before heading to 606 drinks, so going to bow out of this one...for now Wink

by geoff998rugby Wed 20 Nov 2013, 2:35 pm

quinsforever wrote:
geoff998rugby wrote:
quinsforever wrote:i think even NZ would be wary of facing a well-drilled team side consisting of the below squad

http://www.itsrugby.co.uk/team-squad-toulon.html

anyway, you view provincial rugby as more developmental, i view club rugby as separate and worthy in its own right, while also enjoying the intl game. different strokes.
You misunderstand - I do not consider Provincial rugby developmental
I do think it is worthy in ints own right

What I am not prepared to do is to sacrifice International rugby for the sake of Club rugby
it's only an either/or in your personal doomsday scenario Geoff.

Nope its about balance - if we travel down the PRL route that balance will be destroyed

by quinsforever Wed 20 Nov 2013, 2:37 pm

geoff998rugby wrote:English International soccer has gone down the tube since the influx of a large % of foreign players.

Contrast that with Spain and Germany were the majority of players in the senior league remain home grown

hasnt gone down the tube. it has been always disappointing vs expectations with a single blip in 1966 Smile

now i'm really off..

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