New European Rugby cup (or whatever it is called) - Qualification agreed

First topic message reminder :

But didn't the WRU and its regions capitulate and join their English Masters? Have they done a U-turn now? Looks like it.

Unless they want to hype up the Low Value Cup...

Sin é wrote:

beshocked wrote:

Sin é wrote:

beshocked wrote:Well Munchkin you perhaps don't believe it but the English are actually quite a big draw contrary to what Sin e thinks.

Going to use Sin e's own TV figures against him.    It's expected that Saturday afternoon is prime TV, more so than Friday evening.

The games involving the English sides both have highest ratings.


Sky Sports 2
w/e 13 Oct 2013
000's
1 LIVE RUGBY-HARLEQUINS V SCARLETS (SAT 1534) 242
2 LIVE JOHNSTONES PAINT TROPHY/#JOHNSTONES (TUE 1930 192
3 LIVE RUGBY-EXETER V CARDIFF (SUN 1232) 190
4 LIVE RUGBY-OSPREYS V LEINSTER (SAT 1743) 157
5 LIVE RUGBY-TOULON V GLASGOW (SUN 1448) 137
6 LIVE WORLD GRAND PRIX DARTS (FRI 1900) 135
7 WWE LATE NIGHT SMACKDOWN (FRI 2349) 100
8 ELITE LEAGUE SPEEDWAY (MON 1930) 93
9 LIVE RUGBY-EDINBURGH V MUNSTER (SAT 1300) 90
10 LIVE NFL- NEW ORLEANSNEW ENGLAND (SUN 2118) 88

My main point was that non-English sides are a much bigger draw than you like to pretend. Toulouse is as big a draw in that game (Saracens did not make the Top 10 the previous, unlike Edinburgh v Munster which was at an award time as well) and it certainly is embarrassing that such a big club like Leicester doesn't feature at all. I don't agree that Friday night is a bad night - there are very few games, no football to compete with.

I could easily retort that most of the people for the Toulon-Glasgow there were there to see Toulon and their stars.

Yes you are right. Saracens didn't make the top 10 in a game vs Connacht. Do you honestly think Connacht are a big draw? No one knows how big the viewing figures were.

Weren't Leicester facing Treviso who aren't exactly a big draw either?

Edinburgh vs Munster was on a Saturday at 1pm. Hardly a bad time.

Also Ulster-Leicester is nowhere to be seen.

You missed this part of my post where I cross referenced the teams that appeared in the Top 10 both weekends. The only English team to make the shortlisting was Harlequins.

The teams that make Top 10 viewing both weekends are:
The top draws are Harlequins, Leinster, Ospreys, Toulon, Munster.

Surprising that only two British teams would make the Top 10 in a UK combined market (Quins & Ospeys) and two Irish and 1 French team makes it.

Munster obviously pulled Edinburgh & Gloucester into the Top 10. Leicester or Saracens couldn't pull Ulster (a UK team) or Connacht into a Top 10 position.

It demonstrates that non-English teams are very attractive to a UK audience.

Is it really a big surprise that Saracens couldn't drag Connacht into the top 10? With all due respect to Connacht they barely have any drawing power. Basically their only well known player is Dan Parks. They are seen as a small team even if in the match they were so close to pulling an upset.

Plus they are not in the UK (obviously this makes a difference because people in the UK will watch their own sides surely?)

Surely you as an Irish man should be worried by the poor drawing power of Ulster. Not even Tigers could drag them into the top 10.

I think having both games on Friday night hurt them but that's just me.

"It demonstrates that non-English teams are very attractive to a UK audience."

what the figures demonstarete to me is that, rugby is not a big draw,

However there is potential there . And the teams that have the larger potential in the UK/Ire are the teams involving the English- due to England having the vast percentage of population

beshocked wrote: Surely you as an Irish man should be worried by the poor drawing power of Ulster.

No worries here at Ravenhill.

Every home game sold out these days regardless of opposition - the place is literally bursting at the seams
I think you will be looking at an average crod of something like 16,000 next year when the new stand is complete
Merchandise sales trebled this year
Away support whilst not second to none is one of the best half dozen in Europe in terms of numbers going to away HC matches
Pro12 matches drawing a 200,000+ viewing figure on Terrestial TV (Not too shabby for a Province of a 1.9 million)

Our drawing power is just fine thanks

By the way been told 1 PRL chairman has admitted privately the game is up and that there will be a HC without the Englsih next year - cant say which one for obvious reasons

geoff998rugby wrote:

beshocked wrote:  Surely you as an Irish man should be worried by the poor drawing power of Ulster.

No worries here at Ravenhill.

Every home game sold out these days regardless of opposition - the place is literally bursting at the seams
I think you will be looking at an average crod of something like 16,000 next year when the new stand is complete
Merchandise sales trebled this year
Away support whilst not second to none is one of the best half dozen in Europe in terms of numbers going to away HC matches
Pro12 matches drawing a 200,000+ viewing figure on Terrestial TV (Not too shabby for a Province of a 1.9 million)

Our drawing power is just fine thanks

Fair enough but can you explain why the Ulster-Tigers game had poor viewing figures?

beshocked wrote:
Is it really a big surprise that Saracens couldn't drag Connacht into the top 10? With all due respect to Connacht they barely have any drawing power. Basically their only well known player is Dan Parks.

Never heard of the man who captained the back to back Super Rugby winners of 2012 and 2013?

I thought you would have learned a little about Connacht this year  

beshocked wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

beshocked wrote:  Surely you as an Irish man should be worried by the poor drawing power of Ulster.

No worries here at Ravenhill.

Every home game sold out these days regardless of opposition - the place is literally bursting at the seams
I think you will be looking at an average crod of something like 16,000 next year when the new stand is complete
Merchandise sales trebled this year
Away support whilst not second to none is one of the best half dozen in Europe in terms of numbers going to away HC matches
Pro12 matches drawing a 200,000+ viewing figure on Terrestial TV (Not too shabby for a Province of a 1.9 million)

Our drawing power is just fine thanks

Fair enough but can you explain why the Ulster-Tigers game had poor viewing figures?

People living in England chose not to watch in sufficient number.
If the game had been on Saturday I am sure it would have been right up there.

geoff998rugby wrote:

beshocked wrote:  Surely you as an Irish man should be worried by the poor drawing power of Ulster.

No worries here at Ravenhill.

Every home game sold out these days regardless of opposition - the place is literally bursting at the seams
I think you will be looking at an average crod of something like 16,000 next year when the new stand is complete
Merchandise sales trebled this year
Away support whilst not second to none is one of the best half dozen in Europe in terms of numbers going to away HC matches
Pro12 matches drawing a 200,000+ viewing figure on Terrestial TV (Not too shabby for a Province of a 1.9 million)

And apart from anything else, apparently there's a decent mayonnaise crepe available.

geoff998rugby wrote:

beshocked wrote:  Surely you as an Irish man should be worried by the poor drawing power of Ulster.

No worries here at Ravenhill.

Every home game sold out these days regardless of opposition - the place is literally bursting at the seams
I think you will be looking at an average crod of something like 16,000 next year when the new stand is complete
Merchandise sales trebled this year
Away support whilst not second to none is one of the best half dozen in Europe in terms of numbers going to away HC matches
Pro12 matches drawing a 200,000+ viewing figure on Terrestial TV (Not too shabby for a Province of a 1.9 million)

Our drawing power is just fine thanks

Was up yesterday getting tickets. Apparently only 1000 or so left for treviso and only a few hundred (if even) left for Munster in January!  Unreal ticket sales at present

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

beshocked wrote:
Is it really a big surprise that Saracens couldn't drag Connacht into the top 10? With all due respect to Connacht they barely have any drawing power. Basically their only well known player is Dan Parks.

Never heard of the man who captained the back to back Super Rugby winners of 2012 and 2013?

I thought you would have learned a little about Connacht this year  

I learnt a little bit about Connacht but have forgotten most of it. Most of my knowledge of players outside English ones is if they have international caps or not. Sorry I should specified. Only well known player in the UK. Parks has over 50 caps for Scotland. The Super rugby player has 0.

I am not an expert on super rugby.

Geoff oh are these Sky figures England figures? I thought they were UK figures but perhaps I am wrong?

Oh right so you admit that Saturday games would lead to a boost in attendance? 

geoff998rugby wrote:By the way been told 1 PRL chairman has admitted privately the game is up and that there will be a HC without the Englsih next year - cant say which one for obvious reasons

sad, but its the most likely outcome. reaffirms that the PRL won't join ERC again, no matter what.

good luck to everyone else in the HC next season!

beshocked wrote:
Geoff oh are these Sky figures England figures? I thought they were UK figures but perhaps I am wrong?

Oh right so you admit that Saturday games would lead to a boost in attendance? 

Of course they are UK figures but last time I looked England made up 85% of the popualtion of the UK and therefore is
going to be the crucial factor in overall TV viewing figures.

Saturday games boost the viewing numbers of the couch potatoes not attendance at ther game.
For Ulster it would reduce our numbers through the gates.

I am sure Saturday would boost attendances.

pretty sure i know what the viewing figures are going to be for next season's HC matches involving english clubs..... 

Geoff well evidently Ulster aren't a particularly big draw on TV. From what you've said obviously Ulster have decent attendances and good travel support but this doesn't convert into viewing figures.

Obviously to UK viewers - Ulster-Leicester is not seen as a particularly popular game for whatever reason. Neither is Connacht-Sarries.

Going by the popularity of the Sarries-Toulouse game in terms of viewing figures and attendance at the match, it's evident that Sarries do have some drawing power. On a Friday night I should add. It would be a game more neutrals/casual fans would take an interest in.

Cannot explain Leicester though they did have almost 20,000 at the Treviso match at home which would have cut into their viewing figures. There's not going to be much interest in that match as a neutral on tv.

Talking about match day attendance cutting into viewing figures shows how bad it is..(attendance should be insignificant)

I cannot get my head around the stubbornness of the Rabbo nations- not trying to do something different to boast those viewing figures,

mystiroakey wrote:I am sure Saturday would boost attendances.

Not in Ulster they wont

Beshocked already covered the reason Ulster - Leicester didn't make high viewing figures it was because it was on a Friday not a Saturday that is the key.

Ulster playing on a Friday gets more people through the turnstiles
Ulster playing on a Saturday gets more people watching on TV

Whats difficult to understand about that

Where i come from its very traditional to go to sports matches on a Saturday and not on a Friday night.

Is there any correlation between Stuart Barnes commentating and low viewing figures?

Geoff using that logic than Sarries-Toulouse would have got even more on a Saturday. I point this out because Sin E said how great it was that Edinburgh - Munster got 90,000. It was on a Saturday of course it should better than a Friday.

Ulster-Leicester should be able to get into the top 10 surely? Leicester are the best supported AP side in England with numerous England players etc.

quinsforever wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:By the way been told 1 PRL chairman has admitted privately the game is up and that there will be a HC without the Englsih next year - cant say which one for obvious reasons

sad, but its the most likely outcome. reaffirms that the PRL won't join ERC again, no matter what.

good luck to everyone else in the HC next season!

Is this true?!?!?!?!?!?!?  

The figures are so low- Its more about 'on the day' and arguing a few 1000' here and there is like arguing about what is more popular between haggis and white pudding in southern England.

mystiroakey wrote:Where i come from its very traditional to go to sports matches on a Saturday and not on a Friday night.

Unserstood it is the other way round here. Teams tayloring their matches to the wishes/traditions of their local support is the correct thing to do.
People who go to matches should come first not the TV viewer.

mystiroakey wrote:Talking about match day attendance cutting into viewing figures shows how bad it is..(attendance should be insignificant)

I cannot get my head around the stubbornness of the Rabbo nations- not trying to do something different to boast those viewing figures,

Can you elaborate on some ideas that you have, strokey?

quinsforever wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:By the way been told 1 PRL chairman has admitted privately the game is up and that there will be a HC without the Englsih next year - cant say which one for obvious reasons

sad, but its the most likely outcome. reaffirms that the PRL won't join ERC again, no matter what.

good luck to everyone else in the HC next season!

Wonder if any AP clubs would consider sticking two fingers up to the PRL and making themselves available?

beshocked wrote:Geoff using that logic than Sarries-Toulouse would have got even more on a Saturday. I point this out because Sin E said how great it was that Edinburgh - Munster got 90,000. It was on a Saturday of course it should better than a Friday.

Ulster-Leicester should be able to get into the top 10 surely? Leicester are the best supported AP side in England with numerous England players etc.

Beshocked I would submit Sarries- Toulouse is not as big a draw as Ulster-Leicester.
Sarries have less support than Leicester and Ulster have more support than Toulouse in the UK.
As to why English viewers (85% of the catchment area) didn't tune in to Ulster-Leceister, in more numbers, I have no idea (other than the fact that traditionally Friday night TV figures are lower than Saturday ones) I dont live there.

mystiroakey wrote:Talking about match day attendance cutting into viewing figures shows how bad it is..(attendance should be insignificant)

I cannot get my head around the stubbornness of the Rabbo nations- not trying to do something different to boast those viewing figures,

It was a huge debate here in Ireland a few years ago when a Gov Minister wanted to make the HC free to air.

The IRFU kicked up a huge stink (which almost all Rugby fans agreed with) to keep pay TV in situ. As it was seen to bring in far more cash.

I don't think any "Rabo" fan would have any problem whatever with BT coming into the market.

What we all had an issue with was BT being used as a weapon to gain control of European Rugby for the PRL/LNR

I said many months ago that it would be great if the ERC could harness the business acumen of some of the PRL people to drive competition into the HC TV rights.

If only both sides had been concerned with the good of the game ahead of self interest.

That is hardly going to happen at this stage. The blame for that can be apportioned between the ERC and The PRL/LNR. Some of us would put the bulk of that blame closer to one side than the other.

I also said well over a year ago, that the PRL were foolish to depend on the French as they would be left holding the baby.........

Probably a few twists to come yet, but Euro rugby with no English teams is currently looking the most likely. Which is a pity for all of us, especially those ordinary English fans who would like to follow their teams in Europe.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Talking about match day attendance cutting into viewing figures shows how bad it is..(attendance should be insignificant)

I cannot get my head around the stubbornness of the Rabbo nations- not trying to do something different to boast those viewing figures,

Can you elaborate on some ideas that you have, strokey?

Shouldn't we all be pushing for a competition that truly rivals other sports viewing figures!!

How the heck are we are going to do that the way its run at the moment- and then to effectively knock out 1 or 2 of the largest populated countries is crazy!

The sport is just infighting and going backwards.. It doesn't ever pull together- we had the same problems with the league/union splt, the pro split and now this!!

Look at what has happened to snooker and darts due to all there infighting.

So your saying the Pro12 should lie down and accept what the PRL are offering and be thankful...got it !

mystiroakey wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Talking about match day attendance cutting into viewing figures shows how bad it is..(attendance should be insignificant)

I cannot get my head around the stubbornness of the Rabbo nations- not trying to do something different to boast those viewing figures,

Can you elaborate on some ideas that you have, strokey?

Shouldn't we all be pushing for a competition that truly rivals other sports viewing figures!!

How the heck are we are going to do that the way its run at the moment- and then to effectively knock out 1 or 2 of the largest populated countries is crazy!

The sport is just infighting and going backwards.. It doesn't ever pull together- we had the same problems with the league/union splt, the pro split and now this!!

Look at what has happened to snooker and darts due to all there infighting.

So basically, we should be running the sport to maximise the commercial gain from media deals? I realise that will bring in more money to the game, but I question whether it necessarilywill lead to an improved playing spectacle, and that is what I care about as a diehard fan?

quinsforever wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:By the way been told 1 PRL chairman has admitted privately the game is up and that there will be a HC without the Englsih next year - cant say which one for obvious reasons

sad, but its the most likely outcome. reaffirms that the PRL won't join ERC again, no matter what.

good luck to everyone else in the HC next season!

The art of compromise?

Didn't everyone get the structural changes they wanted?  Massive compromises must be admitted to coming from Pro12 nations.  Nobody could remotely say they didn't move on any of the demands made of them....hell, they even threw in seasonal Home advantage to English and French sides in placement play-off games!!!!  

And yet................................. 'Nah... we know negotiation is all about compromise and not getting everything we want - but - our bottom line is we want everything we want.  We want it all and we want it Now!!!!'

It's a bit................................... juvenile really, if true.  'We're not playin' no more coz you won't give us the ball!'

Geoff- ii am not saying that at all.

But its pretty clear to me that its the way the ERC is run in the first place that should be the main focus of blame..

Take that down and start again IMO.

What ever any of you lot say- england is a huge market. Isolating us is the last thing European club rugby needs

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Talking about match day attendance cutting into viewing figures shows how bad it is..(attendance should be insignificant)

I cannot get my head around the stubbornness of the Rabbo nations- not trying to do something different to boast those viewing figures,

Can you elaborate on some ideas that you have, strokey?

Shouldn't we all be pushing for a competition that truly rivals other sports viewing figures!!

How the heck are we are going to do that the way its run at the moment- and then to effectively knock out 1 or 2 of the largest populated countries is crazy!

The sport is just infighting and going backwards.. It doesn't ever pull together- we had the same problems with the league/union splt, the pro split and now this!!

Look at what has happened to snooker and darts due to all there infighting.

So basically, we should be running the sport to maximise the commercial gain from media deals?  I realise that will bring in more money to the game, but I question whether it necessarilywill lead to an improved playing spectacle, and that is what I care about as a diehard fan?

If you care about the spectacle and your own national rugby team and your set up- you should be wanting the games to reach out to more people..

Forget money for a moment- just think about viewing figures.

What good is a great spectacle if no one watches it

mystiroakey wrote:Geoff- ii am not saying that at all.

But its pretty clear to me that its the way the ERC is run in the first place that should be the main focus of blame..

Take that down and start again IMO.

What ever any of you lot say- england is a huge market. Isolating us is the last thing European club rugby needs

'Isolating' the English clubs is not and never has been the end game - you need to consider part II, which makes the whole thing read 'isolating the English clubs with a view to having them return to the negotiating table/competition on terms with which everyone is happy/can live' - I don't see how that can include handing over total governance which appears to be the main sticking point at this juncture. More than happy for any party that thinks they are able to negotiate the best commercial deal possible for TV rights (as long as everyone is made aware of what is going on)

A split is bad for the game but as has been well documented the origins of the issue is a matter of heated debate.

You say ERC I say PRL

The chasm is currently too wide and we will go our seperate ways.
What will be interesting will be the debate to heal the split for the following year 2015-16

As
doubt it as would be a big risk to possibly have a season of only 6 games. Will be interesting to see if the LNR will be in. It was always a case of the French who would decide the outcome.
As reason for low English viewers is the possibility that they dropped Sky Sports for BT Sport

How does any of that change the fact that viewing figures suck.

The problem seems to be from my pov is that- If its the English idea then we would rather cut our nose off attitude.

Look at how many more people are watching the games on BT already.

And i dont understand all this Rabbo stuff about needing guaranteed revenues- that isnt playing fair at all.

If we do something together its all our blame if it goes wrong.

So basically, we should be running the sport to maximise the commercial gain from media deals?  I realise that will bring in more money to the game, but I question whether it necessarilywill lead to an improved playing spectacle, and that is what I care about as a diehard fan?

I salute you.  Too many people here doing a Business school trip on this topic.  Sport is sport.  It's run as a business, people get paid business rates, it's increasingly professional...................... but it's still Sport.  Meaning corporate attempts at buy outs don't work as smoothly as in other business avenues because, to put it bluntly, normal people have a much more vested interest in their 'indigenous' sporting activities than they have in local dog food companies.  No, they're not cold and clinical shareholders willing to sell their stake in their local companies (teams/Unions etc) to the aggressive outsider saying that it wants to buy up everyone's stake to allow the product to 'grow', develop, and 'dominate the marketplace' under one strong leader (PRL).

Whatever many here think...many of them obviously working in and around the financial disciplins......... normal sporting fans, especially team following ones, in general don't give a schit about the bigger global economic and 'domination' picture.  They want their little company [team/Union] and they're not interested in selling out control of that little company to the highest external bidder.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:By the way been told 1 PRL chairman has admitted privately the game is up and that there will be a HC without the Englsih next year - cant say which one for obvious reasons

sad, but its the most likely outcome. reaffirms that the PRL won't join ERC again, no matter what.

good luck to everyone else in the HC next season!

Wonder if any AP clubs would consider sticking two fingers up to the PRL and making themselves available?

Naughty ASBO...so you get to watch Exeter play in HC, and break apart the PRL? win, win for you i reckon

If that's your problem SF- you should hate the fact the games are on SKY!!!

You cant have it both ways. The games are not being watched.


You should have a serious issue that your games arnt on terrestrial telly if that is your concern!

geoff998rugby wrote:A split is bad for the game but as has been well documented the origins of the issue is a matter of heated debate.

You say ERC I say PRL

The chasm is currently too wide and we will go our seperate ways.
What will be interesting will be the debate to heal the split for the following year 2015-16

Hey Geoff, look on the postitive side...Ulster might get to win another HC  

mystiroakey wrote:Geoff- ii am not saying that at all.

But its pretty clear to me that its the way the ERC is run in the first place that should be the main focus of blame..

Take that down and start again IMO.

What ever any of you lot say- england is a huge market. Isolating us is the last thing European club rugby needs

You're right. PRL in isolation from the rest is not good for European rugby, but it's PRL that have isolated themselves. This was the predicted outcome by many fans on here, and elsewhere. If we could predict it then why couldn't PRL? Maybe they did, but took the risk of damaging European rugby, and denying their own fans the pleasure of watching their teams compete in European rugby, for a bite at the BT carrot which the Unions are not allowed to see the details of. Unions other than RFU oddly enough...

beshocked wrote:Geoff well evidently Ulster aren't a particularly big draw on TV. From what you've said obviously Ulster have decent attendances and good travel support but this doesn't convert into viewing figures.

Obviously to UK viewers - Ulster-Leicester is not seen as a particularly popular game for whatever reason. Neither is Connacht-Sarries.

Going by the popularity of the Sarries-Toulouse game in terms of viewing figures and attendance at the match, it's evident that Sarries do have some drawing power. On a Friday night I should add. It would be a game more neutrals/casual fans would take an interest in.

Cannot explain Leicester though they did have almost 20,000 at the Treviso match at home which would have cut into their viewing figures. There's not going to be much interest in that match as a neutral on tv.

The point remains that clubs like Toulon, Munster, Leinster and the Ospreys are a huge tv draw that BT would love to have in a competition that they are broadcasting.

In an interview with Sean Fitzpatrick in one SH newspaper, he made the random comment that the games that people want to watch are 'Munster v Toulouse' (even though Munster isn't a top team at the moment playing wise).

Successful teams will be a draw - I saw a quote from Mick Dawson (Leinster CEO) saying that Leinster have quadrupled their turnover since winning the Heineken Cup.

The fact that you wouldn't have known that Craig Clarke is a pretty unique guy to have on your team playing in Europe - captaining back to back Super Rugby titles for the Chiefs - just suggests that you are a little insular in your rugby knowledge.

BT has way more subscribers/potential subscribers than SKY sports.

How is this BT deal bad on any level whatsoever/

More money and larger audiences!

geoff998rugby wrote:

beshocked wrote:Geoff using that logic than Sarries-Toulouse would have got even more on a Saturday. I point this out because Sin E said how great it was that Edinburgh - Munster got 90,000. It was on a Saturday of course it should better than a Friday.

Ulster-Leicester should be able to get into the top 10 surely? Leicester are the best supported AP side in England with numerous England players etc.

Beshocked I would submit Sarries- Toulouse is not as big a draw as Ulster-Leicester.
Sarries have less support than Leicester and Ulster have more support than Toulouse in the UK.
As to why English viewers (85% of the catchment area) didn't tune in to Ulster-Leceister, in more numbers, I have no idea (other than the fact that traditionally Friday night TV figures are lower than Saturday ones) I dont live there.

Well geoff obviously you've been proved wrong by attendances and viewing figures. More people in the UK wanted to see Sarries-Toulouse than Ulster-Leicester. Can't blame them to be honest. Are you sure Ulster have more support than Toulouse in the UK? Not sure how many of the estimated 500k Frenchman in London watched the match, plus of course there's the neutral factor.

In terms of core support, Leicester trounces Saracens and Ulster beats Toulouse in the UK but in terms of casuals and neutrals...... Toulouse are practically French royalty with numerous internationals. Saracens have plenty of internationals too, plus are one of the top teams in England. Saracens have plenty of casual fans who might not be die hard fans but might happen to catch them on the TV in my opinion.


Over 61,000 people went to see Sarries-Toulouse in person too even if you take into account discounted tickets it's still vastly above the 14,000 Ulster-Leicester got.

quinsforever wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:By the way been told 1 PRL chairman has admitted privately the game is up and that there will be a HC without the Englsih next year - cant say which one for obvious reasons

sad, but its the most likely outcome. reaffirms that the PRL won't join ERC again, no matter what.

good luck to everyone else in the HC next season!

Wonder if any AP clubs would consider sticking two fingers up to the PRL and making themselves available?

Naughty ASBO...so you get to watch Exeter play in HC, and break apart the PRL? win, win for you i reckon

Ah quins, you've seen thru my dastardly ruse!! I shall have a word with Mr Row & co

mystiroakey wrote:How does any of that change the fact that viewing figures suck.

The problem seems to be from my pov is that- If its the English idea then we would rather cut our nose off attitude.

Look at how many more people are watching the games on BT already.

And i dont understand all this Rabbo stuff about needing guaranteed revenues- that isnt playing fair at all.

If we do something together its all our blame if it goes wrong.

But your whole attitude continues along the PRL one, mystir..

It always goes something like this:

"Look, we don't want to appear like we're talking down to minor roleplayers in the great rugby Union club world...but, we're talking down to minor role players in the great rugby union club world.  This sport needs to get its azz off the floor.  We in England know how to get sports off their azzes.  We know what we're doing.  So just shut it, sell us your rights, we'll ensure you get a good money deal, we'll call the shots, we'll make up the rules, we'll sell sponsorship, we'll tell you what to do, say and think.... you be quiet, don't speak up to your betters and just play the game where we say you should be playing it; which is probably down in tier two or three of any European contest.  We'll decide where we'll put you when you sign the contract we're not letting you look at."

BT are not the problem; it is the way the PRL/BT deal has been presented as a take it or leave arrangement.

This has exemplified the fact that clubs wanting to running the competition is the true show stopper

mystiroakey wrote:Geoff- ii am not saying that at all.

But its pretty clear to me that its the way the ERC is run in the first place that should be the main focus of blame..

Take that down and start again IMO.

What ever any of you lot say- england is a huge market. Isolating us is the last thing European club rugby needs

I think that it's the TV deals and not governance that are the stumbling blocks. It feels like, from Rog Lewis's statement that it has to be within ERC, Camou's statement likewise, that there is something other than governance. I think its something about the SKY deal that has fupped the ability of the unions to go elsewhere. Just as the BT deal, once PRL withdrew from ERC, doesnt allow them to go back to ERC.

otherwise they could just dissolve ERC, go with the BT contract, and set up whatever governance worked for everyone.

doesnt matter really anymore. a chasm is a chasm, for whatever reason. But i know who i see as the villains of this piece - JP Lux and the FFR who overrode their clubs to force him to be re-elected. Had Peter Wheeler got elected, PRL and LNR would have had no option but to work on their agenda within the confines of the ERC. Once Lux the stonewaller got it, there was only going to be one outcome. Camou/Lapasset nepotism is why we are here. Nothing more, nothing less.

mystiroakey wrote:BT has way more subscribers/potential subscribers than SKY sports.

How is this BT deal bad on any level whatsoever/

More money and larger audiences!

But we don't know the details of the deal in any shape, nor will those 'larger audiences' stick around when BT stop the 'free' service, which they must eventually to make the sums add up for their shareholders?