Heineken Cup backed by Celtic, French & Italian unions

First topic message reminder :

"The Heineken Cup will go ahead next season despite a planned breakaway tournament, say the Scottish, Welsh, Irish, French and Italian rugby unions."


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25045015


What does this now mean for the English plans, or does it now mean another year of bickering and cat chasing from all the Unions?

The only thing I cant understand is the logic of excluding the RFU by the ERC. RFU still control clubs outside of the Premier. Worst case scenario the RFU could have brought in Division 1 clubs. With the 20 million they would have got the division 1 sides would have been able to put together descent squads as this money wouldn't have been under PRL control thus not shared between 12 teams.

Because the BT deal for the Aviva was better than what they were getting for the Aviva & Europe now & they had given notice to leave the accord so were not covered by the agreement that ERC had exclusive rights

Welshmushroom wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

butterfingers wrote:
'The only slight move from the past rhetoric was that the RFU were excluded from this Union meeting.'

This is key though, does anyone else not find it worrying that through the actions of the PRL the RFU have been excluded from a union meeting?

We are in a very different position whereas the RFU have not been invited to a meeting ALL unions have strengthened their positions in. The Celtic, Italian and French unions are now putting crazy pressure on the RFU.

Up until this week I always felt the PRL bloated and questionable tactics were in a position of power, now I think they are on the verge of isolation, and if they keep pounding away with law suits the RFU is going to suffer.

The RWC is just around the corner, how long will it take for one of the unions to start mentioning boycotting?

comedy, would make me laugh if any of them did threaten boycotting. they would get lynched by their home fans. they have until mid-dec i remember reading to sign up to the rwc2015. if they don't they will get replaced by the next teams on the list and on we go.

I think as everyone pointed out on here though that Wales, Ireland, Scotland, France & Italy probably wont win the WC in 2015 (neither will England btw), that's not the key point to them not attending.  The real issue is that even with replacement teams the RFU wouldn't be able to maximise ticket sales for the matches.  Sure they could replace the home nations but you would basically have no away fans at matches (because I cant see to much travelling support from the next in line nations) and that basically would mean you are looking to make 100 million in ticket sales from the England, South Africa, New Zealand & Australia matches.  Good luck with that.  The RFU would be broke by the end of it.

and the celtic unions would have made a lifelong enemy of the IRB. not terribly sensible. and do you really think France would boycott WRC 2015 with Camou's best buddy (and predecessor at FFR) Lapasset heading IRB? gimme a break. the RFU would not be broke. but the IRFU, SRU and WRU certainly would.

i cant believe anyone is actually seriously proposing this.

Welshmushroom wrote:The only thing I cant understand is the logic of excluding the RFU by the ERC.  RFU still control clubs outside of the Premier.  Worst case scenario the RFU could have brought in Division 1 clubs.  With the 20 million they would have got the division 1 sides would have been able to put together descent squads as this money wouldn't have been under PRL control thus not shared between 12 teams.

Yeah, I think it's stupid.

But the RFU have been fence sitting all the way through. They need to crack the whip at some point. They've allowed the PRL an unbelievable amount of latitude.

In fairness the RFU have never really cracked the whip with the PRL. This was evident when they bartered away the rights for televised contracts to be negotiated by the PRL and not the RFU for club level games. No other Union in world rugby has allowed that to happen. Even with all the power and money the French clubs have, even they can't negotiate their own deals as this is still controlled by the FFR.

I see that previous agreement actually being the cause of all the problems the Unions are facing with regards to this. Had the RFU actually held on to those rights the PRL would not have been able to actually sign this BT deal in the first place without it actually being discussed with the other respective Unions.

The PRL have done only what they are entitled to do but the RFU in my opinion should have always held on to these powers and negotiated player release another way.

I guess that the RFU meant to only give the rights for the Aviva but didnt get the wording correct

Notch wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:The only thing I cant understand is the logic of excluding the RFU by the ERC.  RFU still control clubs outside of the Premier.  Worst case scenario the RFU could have brought in Division 1 clubs.  With the 20 million they would have got the division 1 sides would have been able to put together descent squads as this money wouldn't have been under PRL control thus not shared between 12 teams.

Yeah, I think it's stupid.

But the RFU have been fence sitting all the way through. They need to crack the whip at some point. They've allowed the PRL an unbelievable amount of latitude.

Unless they actually agree with them. They've already given them control over the league. Why wouldn't they do the same for a European game?

the RFU arte between a rock and ahrd place. they have handed over so much to the PRL thye will find it hard to rein them in and cannot afford to upset them this close to the WC. Equally they will be under pressure from the IRB, will understand the positions of the other unions and will not wnt to upset them either.

Given this, acting as quiet honest brokers is the best they can do - and thats what they have tried to do and done reasonably well.

Could it be that the RFU have realised that its better to work with rather than trying to control the clubs

broadlandboy wrote:Could it be that the RFU have realised that its better to work with rather than trying to control the clubs

Thats all fine- their domestic competition is nobody elses business. But cross-border competition massively affects other unions. Any cross-border competition should be agreed by all six unions, they at least should have a major say, and it feels like the RFU are not taking a particularly strong stand on all this. The SRU and FIR will be especially annoyed at the potential damage being dealt to their sides.

Maybe the FFR could learn a lesson from the RFU in that regard

Look where "taking a particularly strong stand" by the Unions has got us. Ritchie is angry at the Unions action as he believed that a unified comp was within reach, now we will never know.

Seems that the FFR still have big egos at the top

broadlandboy wrote:Look where "taking a particularly strong stand" by the Unions has got us. Ritchie is angry at the Unions action as he believed that a unified comp was within reach, now we will never know.

We know it wasn't. It must have been clear that th3 PRL were insisting on their way of running things as well and this was unacceptable to the five unions and the IRB

broadlandboy wrote:Look where "taking a particularly strong stand" by the Unions has got us. Ritchie is angry at the Unions action as he believed that a unified comp was within reach, now we will never know.

So what if the RFU are angry. To be fair here the PRL should never have sprung the BT deal on the RFU the way they did. Clearly they are not working together when it counts. The only ones the RFU should rightly be angry with is the PRL who have clearly not included them on things in the first place. You can hardly blame the Unions for saying "enough is enough".

To be fair my money is on the Unions at this stage. I find it very doubtful that England will have any form of European competition next season, which to be perfectly honest is a disgrace to club fans in England who enjoy the HC. I feel for them, I really do.

Bottom line the French being so unpredictable could go any number of ways. If the FFR blocks them the legal permutations could take years to resolve before they are free to do with as they please. I'm still not convinced the LFR even have the power where it matters because a lot of the league income from broadcasters comes via the FFR. Also the league is controlled by the FFR and they have no problems relegating sides (as seen in so many previous TOP14 cases previously). I cant see the LFR letting it get that far tbh which is why even though they have publicly backed the PRL, they haven't committed to any contracts. Basically I think its a case of when not if they will renegade on their agreement with the PRL.

Also given SKY have already indicated that the new deal for next year will only be reduced by 25% for non English participation, none of the unions look to lose any money - and given the deal was worth more money next season anyway, there will be increased funds for participating teams (and less expenditure by cancelling the CC). Granted BT would have brought more money in though.

So that will just leave English sides receiving possibly the same money as before (with a increase from the Aviva coverage which supposedly covers the money they will lose from Europe). So the only real losers will be English Club fans. Such a shame because it should be the fans that really count in all of this.

Didn't the ERC say Sky were on board and the although it would generate less it would be made up with not giving out the English share? That's not the same as saying it would be a 24% reduction although it's certainly worded to imply it. I'd be very surprised if Sky have agreed costs for a competition until the competitors were confirmed (which French teams).

My understanding is the FFR have indicated French teams will be participating in the HC.

The SKY deal does not govern which Unions teams are present. It requires entrants from those Unions but it wont outline which ones exactly. This is because of the qualification criteria as the same clubs don't always qualify.

So SKY cant get out of it from a French perspective if the FFR enter six division 4 sides and still pocket the cash. My understanding is that the SKY deal has been renegotiated and its 25% less than the one signed earlier this year. Which was a 10 million increase on the one for this year. That 25% reduction is exclusively a reduction for the English share which would indicate why the RFU have not been included, because they don't believe they can secure English representation for it.

To be fair to SKY they have had a massive hand in the creation of the HC, and my understanding is Murdoch is not willing to give up on this just yet. I actually think they are all planning to see out a season with the English with a view to bringing them back into the fold later on.

It dfoes now look likely a European cup with no English clubs. Give them a year to get rid of McCaffrey and muzzle Wray and let them back in on our terms the following year

Could the reason the RFU were excluded was because they could have entered lower division teams & pocketed the money as per your suggestion for FFR but Sky didnt want to pay for non PLR english teams

I remember watching the Leicester v Stade final in 2001 on terrestrial TV (first game of rugby I ever watched). Bit much to say they had a massive hand in its creation. Certainly in its development.

Where did you get your info on the new deal?

The FFR have said they have 5 teams on board and are convinced they can get the rest.

I'd be surprised if with no English clubs and only some French (the max would be 8 but there's only 4 at the moment and that's supposedly mainly comprised of the Top 14 bottom 3) there was just a 25% drop in ERC revenue after the new French TV deal is struck, the Sky one adjusted and the various sponsorship deals renewed.

Sky may put more in to keep it going. Or the main draw may be the Pro12 teams and the English have an overinflated opinion of their worth. Who knows.

HammerofThunor wrote:I remember watching the Leicester v Stade final in 2001 on terrestrial TV (first game of rugby I ever watched). Bit much to say they had a massive hand in its creation. Certainly in its development.

Where did you get your info on the new deal?

The FFR have said they have 5 teams on board and are convinced they can get the rest.

No I should have stated its development, not creation. It definitely wasn't invested at the beginning. That said it certainly has invested a lot in terms of development of the competition over the years.

The FFR clearly have indicated teams will be participating. I've no idea what their plans for what those teams compositions will be. They will be entering sides though. Could be TOP14 sides, lower tier teams or even regional centrally contracted players (less likely).

I suspect we have 4-6 french team committed and the rest will come onboard. If not the FFR will be able to block them playing in the RCC I think. I suspect given a choice of the ERC euro cup with most of their demands met or nothing the french clubs will go for the ERC cup

The only way the French will be in the RCC is if the FFR pull a massive u-turn and sort out a deal with the LNR over player release and foreign numbers.

Oh and pigs may well fly.

But the key French demand was control. That started this whole thing. The FFR threatening and being heavy handed isn't going to help that more.

Isn't the ERC revenue made up by pooling all the unions media deals so PRL's share is made from the pooled UK/French/Italian rights so would be greater than 24% of the UK rights

True. The amount of money will be heavily tied to the French involvement (and their share). If it's their top teams it won't make much difference. If it's a few D2 or lower T14 teams there will be a significant reduction. If it's franchises made up of centrally contracted d2 and out of contract t14 players it would be a pittance. But it would depend how much they get as a %. I'm sure it would be equal whoever they are.

Camou won't be able to bring all the French sides on board whatever they decide because there are at best only spots for half of them.  A large number won't have European rugby whatever transpires.

There have been suggestions that there would only be 6 French sides involved (maybe a facet of the finance sharing structure)

WalesOnline understands the European Cup being proposed would involve the 12 Pro12 clubs, six French sides plus two others, possibly another Italian outfit and even a Spanish side.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/fresh-twist-european-cup-saga-6329652

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/10470617/Welsh-regions-prepare-to-decide-whether-to-defy-their-union-and-sign-up-with-breakaway-league.html

Nothing new. Only thing I've not seen before is that Gallagher (RRW) was asked to leave the room after presenting his case (apparently).

HammerofThunor wrote:The only way the French will be in the RCC is if the FFR pull a massive u-turn and sort out a deal with the LNR over player release and foreign numbers.

Oh and pigs may well fly.

But the key French demand was control. That started this whole thing. The FFR threatening and being heavy handed isn't going to help that more.

Another scenario would be that the LNR boycott the ERC tournament & take legal action against the FFR through the European courts.

timhen wrote:Camou won't be able to bring all the French sides on board whatever they decide because there are at best only spots for half of them.  A large number won't have European rugby whatever transpires.

There have been suggestions that there would only be 6 French sides involved (maybe a facet of the finance sharing structure)

WalesOnline understands the European Cup being proposed would involve the 12 Pro12 clubs, six French sides plus two others, possibly another Italian outfit and even a Spanish side.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/fresh-twist-european-cup-saga-6329652

Thats at least as many as have euro rugby now that they care about ( second teams in the amlin at best) and its better than nothing at all. the rumour is 4-6 french clubs already agreed. I suspect also that if no english clubs there will be quite a bit of leeway over who tykes the english teams places. I very much doubt the rabo unions would insist on all 12 teams playing for example

Be nice to see Spain in as a national side and maybe some representation from Georgia and Romania

It would be supreme irony if the FFR entered the 4 French teams Biarritz,Oyonnax,Bayonne ( the 3 relegation candidates ) and Toulon ( the anti French team stuffed with foreigners ) in next years HC. The FFR are ultimately looking for control of the players "a la " ESP system + reduction in foreign players so it is wishful thinking of Celts to think of the FFR as supporting the status quo , they have their own agenda............beware.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:The only way the French will be in the RCC is if the FFR pull a massive u-turn and sort out a deal with the LNR over player release and foreign numbers.

Oh and pigs may well fly.

But the key French demand was control. That started this whole thing. The FFR threatening and being heavy handed isn't going to help that more.

Another scenario would be that the LNR boycott the ERC tournament & take legal action against the FFR through the European courts.

And another scenario that the FFR revoke the LNR's licence to operate as a league. They'd have to set up their own code if they still wanted to operate as a league - no insurance, no refs, no admin, no nothing. Start from scratch. The league would be full of past it players from the SH out for a big paycheck having done it all in an AB or Bok jersey and now have no international aspirations.

Effectively, the IRB/Unions own rugby (like a Franchise). They license others (franchisees) to operate competitions. They can revoke those licences as well.

This happens all the time in business where a franchise loses its licence to operate a business and none of them have ended up in the European Courts.

rosbif wrote:It would be supreme irony if the FFR entered the 4 French teams Biarritz,Oyonnax,Bayonne ( the 3 relegation candidates ) and Toulon  ( the anti French team stuffed with foreigners ) in next years HC. The FFR are ultimately  looking for control of the players  "a la " ESP system  + reduction in foreign players  so it is wishful thinking of Celts to think of the FFR as supporting the status quo , they have their own agenda............beware.

What is likely to happen is these clubs will become very attractive to French players who have aspirations to play international rugby for France. And with the extra finance/central contracts, they will become very competitive.

The Heineken Cup is a huge attraction for SH players according to Doug Howlett. Its a bit of a status thing down there to have European & Southern Hemisphere Heineken Cup/Super Rugby titles.

That's a contradiction more money = better players= more SH players akin Toulon which doesn't help the French team ...................they did lose again last night not a good vintage 2013.

rosbif wrote:That's a contradiction more money = better players= more SH players  akin Toulon which doesn't help the French team ...................they did lose again last night  not a good vintage 2013.

The central contracts will be for the French players. The FFR won't be handing out cash for nothing.

No harm either having one team like Toulon stacked with SH greats to play against.

I've tried to stay away from this ERC/PRL threads bar the one i created, but i'll throw my 2 pennies into this one.

rosbif wrote:It would be supreme irony if the FFR entered the 4 French teams Biarritz,Oyonnax,Bayonne ( the 3 relegation candidates ) and Toulon  ( the anti French team stuffed with foreigners ) in next years HC. The FFR are ultimately  looking for control of the players  "a la " ESP system  + reduction in foreign players  so it is wishful thinking of Celts to think of the FFR as supporting the status quo , they have their own agenda............beware.

This isn't really going to go against the Celts & Italians, and will probably be in favor of the P12 teams. At the moment there is a player drain going from the Celts & Italians which are reducing the quality of the home teams. This ultimate control that you suggest for the FFR will see less players leave for the big pay checks in France which will see more competitive teams from Italy, Scotland and Wales. It will effect Ireland less as they currently have central contracts setup which benefit their provinces and national setup, which has reduced their player drain.

Can someone please tell me who this Rob Smith guy is mentioned in the thread?

Wasps academy manager according to the comments on espn

Rob Smith · Academy Manager at London Wasps
Yes, let's stop making anything in the UK and put all our workers out of jobs 'cos it's cheaper to make everything aboard....stuff the quality it's just the money and profit that counts. Get out of the game you do not understand sport.

this in response to a rant from Wray

http://www.espn.co.uk/heineken-cup-2013-14/rugby/story/206899.html

Worst case scenario with the French.

They let the current league TV deal run until 2016 and stay out if the HEC. They speak to the guys offering the new TV deal (supposed to be 3 times the current one, so €90M per year) and use they to finance a break away from union that will start in 2016. They use the next three years to sort out refs, admin, etc and then move away. Any players that go will be outside the IRB and don't need to be released. So there's this massive financial behemoth playing a game very similar to rugby (but allows face washing) that isn't bound by IRB regulations. Terrible for everyone.

timhen wrote:Camou won't be able to bring all the French sides on board whatever they decide because there are at best only spots for half of them.  A large number won't have European rugby whatever transpires.

There have been suggestions that there would only be 6 French sides involved (maybe a facet of the finance sharing structure)

WalesOnline understands the European Cup being proposed would involve the 12 Pro12 clubs, six French sides plus two others, possibly another Italian outfit and even a Spanish side.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/fresh-twist-european-cup-saga-6329652

Gernika
Rovigo
Oyonnax
Bayonne
Biarritz
Grenoble
Bordeaux
Toulon
Zebre
Connacht
Treviso
Dragons
Edinburgh
Glasgow
Blues
Scarlets
Ospreys
Munster
Ulster
Leinster

Does that look more like the Heineken or the Amlin?


I wonder which competition will be Sky's least watched, the RFU Championship, LV, Pro12 or Amlin MkII?

Grenoble ,Bordeaux both second division teams? Bordeaux another team with pots of money to buy foreigners.

Oh dear - the english fans do not like this euro cup without the English do you? come on chaps - play fair. Its not amlin Mk2 - its HC without the english. Once a few French join the rest will as well

save your vitriol for the people who got you here. McCaffrey. Wray and Craig

TJ wrote:Oh dear - the english fans do not like this euro cup without the English do you?  come on chaps - play fair.  Its not amlin Mk2 - its HC without the english.  Once a few French join the rest will as well

save your vitriol for the people who got you here.  McCaffrey. Wray and Craig

Apart from they can't, there's only space for a few of them.

niwatts wrote:

TJ wrote:Oh dear - the english fans do not like this euro cup without the English do you?  come on chaps - play fair.  Its not amlin Mk2 - its HC without the english.  Once a few French join the rest will as well

save your vitriol for the people who got you here.  McCaffrey. Wray and Craig

Apart from they can't, there's only space for a few of them.

Nonsense. could be 8 or even ten easily. do you really think the rabo unions will now insist on all 12 when they were prepared to go to 7?

TJ wrote:

niwatts wrote:

TJ wrote:Oh dear - the english fans do not like this euro cup without the English do you?  come on chaps - play fair.  Its not amlin Mk2 - its HC without the english.  Once a few French join the rest will as well

save your vitriol for the people who got you here.  McCaffrey. Wray and Craig

Apart from they can't, there's only space for a few of them.

Nonsense.  could be 8 or even ten easily.  do you really think the rabo unions will now insist on all 12 when they were prepared to go to 7?

All the suggestions so far have been for all Pro12 sides to have a place. There's a difference between Pro12 sides having at least Amlin games to play rather than nothing at all, I don't see them moving on all 12 having some sort of European rugby to give the French 10 spots.

Until there are spaces for all the French teams in some sort of competition you won't have them all on board. Rather than a 20 team competition they should have proposed two 16 team ones if all the French signed up (with 6 other European teams making up the numbers as in the current Amlin). That they didn't propose that suggests they know they won't be able to get all the French teams to join.

I think you will find the rabo unions will be very flexible on this. No not all 14 french teams will get in but at least as many as in the HC right now - remember the french do not care one jot about the amlin playing second string teams all the time in it. No will the Rabo unions insist on more entrants to the HC now than in the past ie ten only. We don't know the details as none have been worked out but I am sure we will be able to get enough french on board and agree a format that keeps everyone happy.

Whats going to be even funnier is when the english clubs come begging for spaces again then who will have to give up places for them. they will not get offered as good a deal as they have been again thats for sure. Made too many enemies

Can't agree with you at all.  Teams may not care too much about the Amlin, but it still means money for them in terms of participation payments and gates, as well as being able to give their extended squads games.  

Specifically in terms of the French, knowing that a decent number of them (maybe more than half) won't have that will make it less likely for them to fold in significant numbers, particularly when the majority of the spots available look to have already been taken by the bottom and less powerful clubs.

Big mistake by Camou not to have given all the French clubs a route back in, it just makes them more likely (particularly the richest and more powerful) to stay out and play their hand more forcefully once Camou has gone.

All french clubs have a route back in. No one is excluded even the english. No one cares about he amlin especially the french and they will be relieved not to be made to play in it.