Celtic nations come together to resist changes to Heineken Cup

http://www.espnscrum.com/heineken-cup-2011-12/rugby/story/166705.html

Martyn Thomas says Ireland, Wales and Scotland have formed a pact not to give in to the English and French demands. Furthermore he thinks the English and French are going to be forced to back down and he describes English and French rugby as "power crazy".

Premiership Rugby's hopes of forcing a re-vamp of the Heineken Cup have been dealt a blow by reports that resistance to the proposed changes is growing.

"The Celtic Unions have made a pact that this time they will not roll over in the face of any threats," he told The Rugby Paper. "If they keep their nerve when the going gets tough, the French and English clubs will be forced to back down.

"The Welsh, Irish and Scottish Union are determined not to give in. If the English and French clubs don't back down and walk away from the tournament, the Celts will say: 'That's a shame but if you don't want to play in the Heineken Cup as we know it and love it, tough'.

"It's all about brinkmanship. The top English and French clubs are power crazy. They are driven by a join belief that they are the people who command the most money from television for live coverage. That rather flies in the face of the fact that five of the last six teams represented in the last three finals did not come from England. Despite that, they have no regard for the revenue generated by Welsh, Irish and Scottish teams."

He continued: "Like most things in professional sport, this is about money and the English and French teams want more. They may dress it up in all sorts of ways but that's the reality. There will be some tough times ahead."

Ultimately this boils down to the difference between privately owned clubs and centrally owned/controlled franchises.

The French and English league clubs had the Celtic league structure imposed on them as entries into the european competition and if one 'nation' only has two/three teams out of the HC 24 teams but gets a sixth of the revenues, who wouldnt hold out for the status quo??? The days of some teams offering the potential '10 pointer' in the HC pools are still with us.

It also about time that the next tier of the competition got a fair shout too in terms of resources and recognition, as standards across the board only improve from the bottom up, rarely top down.

The LV cup has turned into the Welsh regions taking the revenue for very little effort using third string teams sometimes and one would fully expect a version of the old Pilkington cup to take its place in the fullness of time. As a season ticket holder I would much rather see young English talent in Championship sides getting exposure to AP standard reserve teams during the 6N.

If the HC game of chicken results in the French and English resorting to a cup knockout type competion between themselves (unlikely) it will be interesting to see how Sky will react. My fellow season ticket holders would be quite happy to watch more french sides where they agonise between a flair or percentages type game plan against our beloved team.

The Celtic teams have the votes but the Anglo/French side has the marketing power - Sadly I know where my money is but then again, that is professional sport where sentiment has no place.

Oh dear, Martyn Thomas again.

Recwatcher wrote:Ultimately this boils down to the difference between privately owned clubs and centrally owned/controlled franchises.

The French and English league clubs had the Celtic league structure imposed on them as entries into the european competition and if one 'nation' only has two/three teams out of the HC 24 teams but gets a sixth of the revenues, who wouldnt hold out for the status quo??? The days of some teams offering the potential '10 pointer' in the HC pools are still with us.

It also about time that the next tier of the competition got a fair shout too in terms of resources and recognition, as standards across the board only improve from the bottom up, rarely top down.

The LV cup has turned into the Welsh regions taking the revenue for very little effort using third string teams sometimes and one would fully expect a version of the old Pilkington cup to take its place in the fullness of time. As a season ticket holder I would much rather see young English talent in Championship sides getting exposure to AP standard reserve teams during the 6N.

If the HC game of chicken results in the French and English resorting to a cup knockout type competion between themselves (unlikely) it will be interesting to see how Sky will react. My fellow season ticket holders would be quite happy to watch more french sides where they agonise between a flair or percentages type game plan against our beloved team.

The Celtic teams have the votes but the Anglo/French side has the marketing power - Sadly I know where my money is but then again, that is professional sport where sentiment has no place.

I don't think the French and English will bring in close to the revenue from an Anglo-French competition as they would from the Heineken. I also think Sky will feel the same way - I see an English French climb down here, if not then the English and French will leave the HC. I can't see the Celts agreeing to more revenue for the English and French in any shape or form though.

Artful_Dodger wrote:http://www.espnscrum.com/heineken-cup-2011-12/rugby/story/166705.html


"The Welsh, Irish and Scottish Union are determined not to give in. If the English and French clubs don't back down and walk away from the tournament, the Celts will say: 'That's a shame but if you don't want to play in the Heineken Cup as we know it and love it, tough'.

Interesting comment, as if France and England do walk away, then it won't be the Heineken Cup as we know it, it will be the Rabo in another format. The fact that he has made this comment leads me to believe the man is a buffoon.

By all means the Celtic sides should dig their heels in and say we reject change, as the current system is one that they are happy with. The risk however is as much with them as with the English and French in that situation, as if the English and French teams did walk away then how would the competition continue if it was only teams already int he Rabo that played in it?

Leaving would smack of cutting off your nose to spite your face but the English and French club chairman clearly feel that they are being disadvantaged in some way, so I guess it is inevitable in these money driven times that they will take a stand.

Fair enough Artful, I would agree it probably wouldnt pull in more than the total current contract but they would probably get more than the sixth share they currently get in absolute terms.

Also turn it around and how much do you think Sky would pay for an HC without the English and French clubs in it ??? ie the R12, given they weren't much interested in that league?

You have got to laugh at this cartoon type villain that is the french and english clubs - who employ on a meritocratic basis those that either have no place to go for a professional contract ie. Argentines and PIs or those who fall out of Test favour where they are restricted if they want Test recognition (in theory).

Sky may well have shot their bolt with the footie coverage. pushed by BT's intervention. The future of rugby on tv may be ESPN and FTA plus sponsorship.

French rugby doesn't need HC income. English rugby would suffer without it, but may well manage.

Martyn Thomas is a pratt

I thin kwe need them more than they need us, someone will buckle, I would be reasonably confident of the French/Englsih being in the HC in a few years time.

The trump card may well be that the French do not need HC income. Those AP teams that have qualified for the HC next season could all survive without it as Quins, Tigers, Saints and Saracens all have backers in various forms and Sale and Exeter have never much had HC income anyway.

Martin Thomas is part of the benevolent old school who believes in British rugby, whereas these days everyone tells us we are English rather than British and the clubs do not need reminding and are acting accordingly.

Do the Celtic countries include Italy in this discussion?

Martyn Thomas was foolish to come out with such comments before negotiating. It'll only get peoples backs up.

I'm amazed at people saying that the French clubs don't need the H-cup. In the French press there are regular reports of clubs' financial struggles, which contributed to them bringing in a salary cap. I don't think that these clubs will take the loss of this kind of potential revenue likely.

This is going to be a serious year or two to decide how professional rugby is going to go in Europe. Yes the French could play the English and the rest could financially be crippled by the loss of income, and the games popularity in these countries could be damaged by the lack of exposure. And the English and French would earn a bit less and lose prestige and some popularity in their new competition.

On the other hand should the French and English clubs get the changes that they want and include more of their clubs and bring in qualification rules that will probably eliminate the Italians or Scots from the competition year after year the results will of course mean more money and more of their clubs involved. And would undermine the sport in Italy and Scotland, the two countries where rugby needs the most help.

Which worries me most is that if these clubs get away with blackmail once they will keep doing it to get even more money and places in the competition. Who could stop them? If the power really lies with the these two countries then giving in to these demands will be the thin edge of the wedge.

The English and French already have more teams involved than any other country. I think thats something we also need to take into account.

Hypthotically if the english and frnech clubs walk away, by when should the other nations start looking at broadcasting agreeements if such a scenario is possible?

Surely they can't wait until the two years are up, it would be too late by then?

If I was them I would already sit around a table and look at a new format and contracts. Just incase it all goes south.

It's about time somebody stood up to this if you ask me, it seems that the English and French would love to keep the HC but only on their terms. They are bullying the other unions and unless a stand is made they will keep doing it. What if they get what they want and still keep loosing ? They will probably find something else to moan about. I say the Celtic Unions should dig their heels in and show that they are not going to be bullied. If the English and French do pull out and the HC goes down the pan, then the Celtic cup will have to be re-instated, and while we are at it perhaps we should have a little think about how far this will go, what if England and France fail to win anything at international level for a few years ? Will they start demanding a bigger cut of the six nations pie, or even the world cup pie ? A president needs to be set now, and that is we will not be bullied by anyone and they should stand firm no matter what the outcome, Irish,Welsh and Scottish and even Italian rugby were around before the HC and will still be around after it as well.

The welsh regions are probably more concerned about losing LV revenue than HC revenue.

The clubs made a rod for their own backs by accepting the current structure previously and giving one or two Unions unrealistic expectations of what they feel they are now due.....

So the English and French are bullying because they did the only thing they could to force a renegotiation of the terms that were set up years ago. But the Rabo unions are not bullies for using their majority of votes to block negotiations? Why do they do that? Because they know they do very well financially out of it.

It's not even 'do what we want or we walk'. It's 'we have to talk about the current format'. Due to the selfish, arrogant, bullying nature of the Rabo unions the only way they could do it was to give notice.

The French and English clubs wouldn't need to generate the same revenue from an Anglo-French cup. The money split currently is by appearance (largely). So there are 12-14 English and French clubs in it out of 24. So if they generated just over half the money they would get the same. Do people think that the TV generated is less than half generated by English and French people? I don't (based on nothing but guess work).

Professional rugby in those countries wasn't there before the HEC.

Recwatcher wrote:The welsh regions are probably more concerned about losing LV revenue than HC revenue.

The clubs made a rod for their own backs by accepting the current structure previously and giving one or two Unions unrealistic expectations of what they feel they are now due.....

The regions would be concerned with losing the TV money from LV= and HEC yes, but realistically I think they would probably be not lose out on too much as there would be a Celtic Cup or another HEC cup involving Romanian, Georgian or Spainish sides instead fothe French and English. Yes it would be less money from the TV companies, however would it be more through the gates to see teams they haven't seen before (and really should put cricket scores on)?

I think that the English, and possibly French, could come out the worst if they try to throw their weight around to get their own way. As I can't see too many English fans wanting to watch a tournament where they get thumped week in week out by French sides, or worse a competition where the french feild second string sides as it is irrelevent to them.

Recwatcher I absolutely agree that the LV cup needs a rehaul. It's a joke.

Of course the Celts will dig their heels in but the fundamental problem for me is that most Pro12 sides in the HC have auto qualification.

You get into the farcical area where a team which finishes 11th in the Pro12 can get to the semi final of the HC - they got more money for this, auto HC qualification. No punishment for doing badly in the Pro12.

Compare that to the 2007-8 season in the HC when two English sides got to the semi finals - neither featured in the next HC.

So more Welsh people would watch their teams thrash 'weak' teams than would go see top level because they get beat sometimes? That's totally totally bizarre and I hope most people English people aren't like that (I know I'm not and I don't think others are).

You see people in England go along to support their clubs. Not to watch them put cricket scores on weak sides. If fact these are the ones that draw less attendance.

Nothing wrong with the LV. It's a development competition that uses up the slots during the international window. No point making it meaningful as the international won't be there (or more league games get moved there). The only thing you could do is force all teams to only use development players. But I'd say the Tigers players learnt more beating a pretty strong Bath side in the semi than they would have if it was the Bath academy. I like it. It's worked well and has been the springboard for a lot of academy players into the premiership.

Hammer - if the teams are weaker then you are more likely to get to knock out stages, and most semi-fans turn up for cup matches, and turn out in numbers for knock out stages.

The HC is supposed to be about variety, six different countries with multitudes of cultures all comming together for the showpeice of European club rugby to advertise our beautiful game around the world. Now the so called bigger unions want a bigger peice of it, they are willing to jepeordise everything for the sake of money, which probably sums the said unions up at the moment, if the English clubs want to slug it out with the French clubs every season then so be it, and I will say this, if the HC goes, then sky will not replace it with any competition, lets be honest here, football is sky sports bread and butter and everything else are just gap fillers, if they do not have the HC for a couple of weekends a year, then they will probably replace it with yachting or cricket. I for one would be gutted if the HC was lost, but furthermore, I would be more gutted if the Celtic unions gave in to the bullies. It is also very dissapointing that the said unions have put us in this position in the first place, their greed will wreck it for everyone, they should get their own affiars correct first before trying to dictate how every one else runs theirs on how to qualify, then perhaps they could then demand a bigger peice of the pie if they start to win more in the competition.

HammerofThunor it's because it's the only way a Welsh team could possibly win the HC. No English or French teams to stop them!

The regions would be concerned with losing the TV money from LV= and HEC yes, but realistically I think they would probably be not lose out on too much as there would be a Celtic Cup or another HEC cup involving Romanian, Georgian or Spainish sides instead fothe French and English. Yes it would be less money from the TV companies, however would it be more through the gates to see teams they haven't seen before (and really should put cricket scores on)?

Because the English putting cricket scores on French second teams (who are generally still half full of internationals and age grade players) will be more dull than watching the Rabo teams do exactly the same to semi pro or full on amatuer teams from the European minnow countries?

It's the opening of the debate on the HEC, the Rabo countries are happy because currently they get a lot more money than their own tv agreements provide. This has led to their Unions become economically sound (despite the WRU playing hardball with the regions is seems) and the English and French clubs requiring bigger squads that are tough to finance.

The English and French want to promote the Amlin so that better tv deals and sponsorship, restructure the HEC so that they get a bit more cash and introduce a third tier to get the minnows of European Rugby competing and improving. The Rabo Unions have blocked it out of hand because in the short term they won't take as much money from the central pot (it could be more money long term if the Amlin becomes a serious competition).

Those AP teams that have qualified for the HC next season could all survive without it as Quins, Tigers, Saints and Saracens all have backers in various forms and Sale and Exeter have never much had HC income anyway.

Recwatcher, Tigers are owned by the fans there is no majority share holder and no financial backer. The club is run as a company and it's ability to exist is reliant on it's ability to break even. I don't think Quins have a backer either but I'm not sure.

beshocked wrote:HammerofThunor it's because it's the only way a Welsh team could possibly win the HC. No English or French teams to stop them!

N'ah there are still those pesky Irish to contend with. Oh and Edinburgh did pretty well last year too. Tell you what ditch the English, French, Irish, Scotts (and maybe Italians to be on the safe side).

LordDowlais wrote:The HC is supposed to be about variety, six different countries with multitudes of cultures all comming together for the showpeice of European club rugby to advertise our beautiful game around the world. Now the so called bigger unions want a bigger peice of it, they are willing to jepeordise everything for the sake of money, which probably sums the said unions up at the moment, if the English clubs want to slug it out with the French clubs every season then so be it, and I will say this, if the HC goes, then sky will not replace it with any competition, lets be honest here, football is sky sports bread and butter and everything else are just gap fillers, if they do not have the HC for a couple of weekends a year, then they will probably replace it with yachting or cricket. I for one would be gutted if the HC was lost, but furthermore, I would be more gutted if the Celtic unions gave in to the bullies. It is also very dissapointing that the said unions have put us in this position in the first place, their greed will wreck it for everyone, they should get their own affiars correct first before trying to dictate how every one else runs theirs on how to qualify, then perhaps they could then demand a bigger peice of the pie if they start to win more in the competition.

The problem is the Celtic nations want their cake and eat it too. It's greed from all countries. Don't wear your Welsh blinkers. The Celtic nations have it too good at the moment. The French and English want a bigger slice of the financial pie which they believe they deserve.

With virtual auto HC qualification every season you would think the Pro12 sides would be more commerically popular than they are. Simply put most aren't.

Scarletspiderman if the HC was basically the Pro12 - the Welsh clubs particularly the O's would stand a very good chance.

If the Heineken Cup is broken up it will be good for no one.

I get the impression from Hammerofthunor that the English and French clubs aren't necessarily pulling out of the HC. They just want to renegotiate which is fair enough. Why should for example the Scottish clubs get as much of a slice of the revenue as the English when the English clubs are a bigger draw? (not sure if this is true but it's a hypothetical situation)

Beshocked, I think you are getting "bigger share" and "equal share" mixed up. The English and French sides as a whole get more people watching because they have more teams in the competition, but I seriously doubt that the likes of Northampton and Sarries get more people watching than Munster or Leinster or even the Ospreys and the Blues. Also, just for you to know, all the Welsh regions do not get auto qualification into the HC, you have to be the top three placed of all the Welsh regions to get in. Why should one team get more money than another just for being in a competition ? The only extra you should get is with the progress you make in the competition, not because you have the bigger audience. The only reason that you have a bigger audience is because you have more teams. Rugby is not even in the top three sports in England so please do not tell me you have everybody watching it. Here in Wales, everyone will watch rugby on the tele if there is a Welsh team playing, but in England and France for the majority, not everyone, they only want to watch their own team play. So lets be honest here, it is not the Welsh, Irish, Scottish or the Italians who have manufactured this position, it is the English and the French, so how could the unions who are getting this opposed on them be the bullies in all this ? All they are doing is standing up for themselves and wanting an equal share.

As well as money this is also about the French wanting a smaller HEC but with the same amount of French teams, so they can expand the Pro14 to a Pro16 (and make the clubs can make money from an extra Home game), and the English want more English teams, but the same size/smaller HEC - basically the French/English want more at the expense of the smaller unions - Italians/Scottish (which could seriously jeapordise pro rugby in those countries.

As the French and English make up the majority of the HEC teams, it seems to me they'd want an Anglo-French competition with a scattering of Welsh/Irish teams.

The English and French sides as a whole get more people watching because they have more teams in the competition, but I seriously doubt that the likes of Northampton and Sarries get more people watching than Munster or Leinster or even the Ospreys and the Blues.

LD, I think the potted revenue all comes down to the ability of that nation to agree HEC television rights. The English and French have been able to agree far bigger tv deals than the Rabo countries and would like to see more of the cash they are putting in. They also want to force some of the smaller Rabo clubs/regions/whatever into the Amlin to give that competition a boost and increase its marketability and potential worth to tv companies. The English and the French want to grow the HEC (financially supported third tier as well). The Rabo teams are refusing to talk about it point blank because it is financially great for them and after that they don't give a monkey's.

Under the Anglo-French agreement we'd see a third their, a more competitive and interesting Amlin and a slightly reduced but largely the same HEC as before (the Rabo qualification thing will be altered before the full agreement). Pretty much what most Rabo fans have called for anyway...

As well as money this is also about the French wanting a smaller HEC but with the same amount of French teams, so they can expand the Pro14 to a Pro16 (and make the clubs can make money from an extra Home game), and the English want more English teams

SP, both want the same set up as now but with 4 Rabo teams dropping into the Amlin to make it more interesting and marketable. They've suggested a way of selecting the Rabo teams to drop into the Amlin but the Rabo nations refuse to even talk about changing anything so what option is left to the English and French?

Well you can understand that can't you?

I mean if the Southern (or South Eastern) English clubs told the Northern/Midland clubs that they (the SE clubs) wanted to make the AV a more interesting competition, and so they were going to reduce the size of the AV, but the clubs losing out would all be from the North/Midlands and the SE would keep the same amount of clubs or even increase them, what do you think the Northern/Midland clubs would say?

Blimey another one of these threads? Can we not just that England = Bad, All Other Countries = Good and move on?

Seriously what the hell do people think the English and French were going to do? It's in the contract that if they want to give notice they have to do it 2 years in advance and they have done it. It's their right and it's what would happen in any contract negotiation be it for a player or in business or whatever. At the end of any contract there will usually be one party in a position of power and one that is not.

The English clubs have never been that happy with the HEC arrangements so this is the perfect time to try and fix. I believe that a similar threat was made back in 2007 (when Wasps won I think?) and so the carp people are bringing out saying that this is only as the English clubs aren't winning is just that.

Contracts end, negotiations happen, deal with it.

I agree with Sam.

LordDowlais the likes of Saints and Sarries are a bigger draw than quite a few of the Pro12 sides. Okay maybe not Leinster and Munster but they are the exception not the rule.

One trump card that my team has that you might not know - the brand awareness in South Africa for Saracens is huge. Hardly surprising is it? It means people in South Africa watch Saracens in the HC.

I have heard that most of their games get coverage in South Africa. Biltongbek can you confirm this?

The brand awareness of Saracens is probably much bigger than Cardiff,Scarlets etc. They aren't getting the constant attendances but they will.

Sort out their style of play and stadium and I am confident Saracens will grow significantly in the next 5 years.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

The English and French sides as a whole get more people watching because they have more teams in the competition, but I seriously doubt that the likes of Northampton and Sarries get more people watching than Munster or Leinster or even the Ospreys and the Blues.

LD, I think the potted revenue all comes down to the ability of that nation to agree HEC television rights. The English and French have been able to agree far bigger tv deals than the Rabo countries and would like to see more of the cash they are putting in. They also want to force some of the smaller Rabo clubs/regions/whatever into the Amlin to give that competition a boost and increase its marketability and potential worth to tv companies. The English and the French want to grow the HEC (financially supported third tier as well). The Rabo teams are refusing to talk about it point blank because it is financially great for them and after that they don't give a monkey's.

Under the Anglo-French agreement we'd see a third their, a more competitive and interesting Amlin and a slightly reduced but largely the same HEC as before (the Rabo qualification thing will be altered before the full agreement). Pretty much what most Rabo fans have called for anyway...

As well as money this is also about the French wanting a smaller HEC but with the same amount of French teams, so they can expand the Pro14 to a Pro16 (and make the clubs can make money from an extra Home game), and the English want more English teams

SP, both want the same set up as now but with 4 Rabo teams dropping into the Amlin to make it more interesting and marketable. They've suggested a way of selecting the Rabo teams to drop into the Amlin but the Rabo nations refuse to even talk about changing anything so what option is left to the English and French?

This is very patronising, why should the Rabbo teams supply more sides into the Amlin, and who are you suggesting should take the place of the Rabbo teams in the HC ? If it is no one and we should have a shorter HC, then why can't the English or French allocate their "extra" places into the Amlin, I am sure if Leicester went into the Amlin cup then that would make it more marketable. Turn this around and lets say that the Irish want less English or Fench teams in the HC because they want better competition and the "lesser" English and French side should drop down to make the Amlin more competitive, there would be uproar from your side.

Define 'equal'. It's not about viewing figures as it's not Free-to-Air. It's about subscriptions. Out of the people who subscribe to sky for the HEC, how many do it because the English are involved? Have many the Welsh, Irish, Scottish? The English clubs believe that the majority of subscribers in England (which has the highest number of subscribers for rugby, remember we have 1,454,234,654,345 registered players) are there for English rugby. The French pretty much know that the involvement of the other nations doesn't mean squat to French rugby followers. So they both believe that their involvement is the major draw for TV packages. If this is the case what is equal? A direct split of the total pot? Is that fair? Probably depends on whether you think you're getting more or less than you deserve.

Two ways to get things 'fair'

1) Split it up. Have an Anglo-French cup, have a Rabo cup, let them sell the rights and then everyone will get what they deserve.
2) Each nation sells the rights to their home games and they keep all the money. Everyone gets what they deserve (the RABO nations could band together to sell their as a collective and in theory get more for it)

Dowlais, currently half the English and more than half the French are in the Amlin, between one and two Rabo teams are (let's face it, it's just one really with the Irish being awesome at the moment).

LordDowlais instead of for example Connacht and Zebre being whipping boys in the HC wouldn't it suit them to be a competition more suited to their ability?

You could argue that Ospreys could do with the drop down too.

Who would you say are the "lesser" English sides?

Leicester are a much bigger draw than virtually all Pro12 sides bar possibly Leinster and Munster. They are also much better than most Pro12 sides. It's silly to suggest they should be in the Amlin.

HammerofThunor wrote:Define 'equal'. It's not about viewing figures as it's not Free-to-Air. It's about subscriptions. Out of the people who subscribe to sky for the HEC, how many do it because the English are involved? Have many the Welsh, Irish, Scottish? The English clubs believe that the majority of subscribers in England (which has the highest number of subscribers for rugby, remember we have 1,454,234,654,345 registered players) are there for English rugby. The French pretty much know that the involvement of the other nations doesn't mean squat to French rugby followers. So they both believe that their involvement is the major draw for TV packages. If this is the case what is equal? A direct split of the total pot? Is that fair? Probably depends on whether you think you're getting more or less than you deserve.

Two ways to get things 'fair'

1) Split it up. Have an Anglo-French cup, have a Rabo cup, let them sell the rights and then everyone will get what they deserve.
2) Each nation sells the rights to their home games and they keep all the money. Everyone gets what they deserve (the RABO nations could band together to sell their as a collective and in theory get more for it)

Dowlais, currently half the English and more than half the French are in the Amlin, between one and two Rabo teams are (let's face it, it's just one really with the Irish being awesome at the moment).

That seems to be the most simple answer to the whole issue. I can't see any logical reason it couldn't work.

The Jeff and the Jeff teams home HEC on one channel, the Rabo and Rabo hime HEC on their channels, and the T14, and French home HEC games on their channels. The only problem would be how to divide up the knockouts and highlights.

Just a quick reminder, we are two years away from this having any meaning at all. The current Heineken Cup agreement ends in two years and a new agreement needs to be discussed, negotiated, and agreed. This is all.

All comments at this point are just openning shots of the negotiation and may have a limited connection to what either party actually wants to see. The sad part is these initial comments are somewhat inflammatory.

The good news in this mess is that neither party (I refuse to call them sides) is stupid enough to despoil the goose which lays the golden eggs. Everyone makes too much money to let that happen. The English/French party is threatening to cancel (or pull out of) the Heineken Cup? Really? Not happenning - clearly. The Irish, Scots and Welsh party is going to stand firm and have their own competition? Really? - the Celtic League exists already.

The only thing I wonder is if the gents making these initial comments understand how ridiculous they really sound. I just hope that after two years of negotiations they parties involved don't rush into anything foolish which is not a direct benefit to all nations and clubs/teams.

beshocked wrote:LordDowlais instead of for example Connacht and Zebre being whipping boys in the HC wouldn't it suit them to be a competition more suited to their ability?

You could argue that Ospreys could do with the drop down too.

Who would you say are the "lesser" English sides?

Leicester are a much bigger draw than virtually all Pro12 sides bar possibly Leinster and Munster. They are also much better than most Pro12 sides. It's silly to suggest they should be in the Amlin.

Connacht are usually in the Amlin, except when an Irish side wins the competition - then the Irish get an extra team as a 'reward' (same with every other union).

What is suggested is either Ulster/Munster also go into the Amlin, except when an Irish team win the HEC. Also the Blues/Scarlets (QFs, and a team that has beaten Saints, Munster, Perpingnan, Castres, LI, Brive & Stade in the last few years while in a rebuilding phase) would be put into the Amlin as well, as well as the Dragons. You'd then have Edinburgh (Semi Finalists) in the Amlin, and 1 or more likely 2 Italian sides in the Amlin - more than likely crippeling them.

While at the same time you'd have Exter and Sale in the HEC with worse HEC track records than some of the teams in the Amlin.

And Wasps would be in the Amlin with a better HEC record than everyone bar Toulouse, Leinster, Munster and Leicester. What's your point? If Munster/Ulster did better in the league they would be in the HEC. Same for the other sides.

And obviously if this is what was suggested it was the 'best' case scenario from the clubs point of view. It's never going to happen (as in all negotiations). They haven't said "do this or we walk". They's said "This is what we'd like to do. Please listen to what we're proposing. Can you take your fingers out of you ears, we need to talk about this. Fine, have it your way".

This is very patronising, why should the Rabbo teams supply more sides into the Amlin, and who are you suggesting should take the place of the Rabbo teams in the HC ? If it is no one and we should have a shorter HC, then why can't the English or French allocate their "extra" places into the Amlin

The Rabo supply next to no sides and therefore the ability to sell sponsorship and the tv rights of the Amlin is limited. By raising the awareness of it in 5 more countries it becomes a more financially viable investment. Come on LD stop pretending you didn't see it. Tigers qualified for the HEC fair and square, did Connacht or are the living off of Leinster's success?

What is suggested is either Ulster/Munster also go into the Amlin, except when an Irish team win the HEC.

Actually SP that's the Rabo fans suggestion, the Anglo-French agreement states that the top 6 sides from each league qualify for the HEC. With additional places for the winners of the HEC and the Amlin. So the top 7 from the Rabo would qualify this year if the rules were in place now. Meaning both Ulser and Munster would qualify.

While at the same time you'd have Exter and Sale in the HEC with worse HEC track records than some of the teams in the Amlin.

SP they fought hard for their places beating more established teams on the way. Exeter managed the double over Tigers, that is a rare occurance and worthy of respect. They might not have great previous records in the HEC but surely that's what the seedings are there for?

Smirnoff, like Bath perhaps? who have won the thing and been in semis and quarterfinals in fairly recent times. What welsh team has done that? despite gaining entry, year after year after year.....

Smirnoffpriest bit harsh to say Exeter has a worse HC track record when this is their first HC!!

I thought I would test your little theory.

Sale

Challenge Cup -43 wins,1 draw,17 losses
Heineken Cup - 17 wins, 20 losses

Edinburgh

Challenge Cup - 2 wins, 4 losses
Heineken Cup - 34 wins,3 draws, 53 losses

Glasgow

Challenge Cup -8 wins, 1 draw, 7 losses
Heineken Cup - 25 losses, 2 draws, 52 losses

Connacht

Challenge Cup -50 wins, 48 losses
Heineken Cup - 1 win, 5 losses

Dragons

Challenge Cup - 9 wins, 5 losses
Heineken Cup - 9 wins, 33 losses

From these stats look like these sides are more suited to the Challenge Cup.

The other thing to remember is that we need to grow the game in Europe better then we are now which is where the 3 Tiers come in.

In Soccer each country is given a rating based on the last number of years an so countries lose and gain places at the top table. I would like to see this brought in. As far as I know the overall number of teams from a country stays the same only places to competions change. There is also a cap on the number you can have in a competition.

They have the intertoto cup which is for developing nations such as Ireland, Wales, etc plus one from some of the bigger countires. Fullam got it one year for being the cleanest team (least Fouls)

The small countries get alot (for them) money for playing in it and can get a game against a big team. The prize is a place in the UEFA Cup.

I think it would be good to have something like this. Unless Rugby grows by bringing in more countries we are going to raise revenues much more.

Depending on the ecconomy the money might get reduced as an overall amount which maybe another fear everyone has that isn't being mentioned.

The French proposal had the money from the top European tier funding the 3rd tier.

Both the Russians and the Georgians have professional leagues (10 and 8 teams I think). How many Russian sides are there in the Amlin? None. How many Georgians? None. Just a Spanish team and a Romanian team on top of the Italian, English and French clubs and the odd RABO representative.

The RABO unions have rejected the idea of a 3rd tier to help these countries just so they can keep more money. Greedy and selfish bullies.

Recwatcher wrote:Smirnoff, like Bath perhaps? who have won the thing and been in semis and quarterfinals in fairly recent times. What welsh team has done that? despite gaining entry, year after year after year.....

Where did I mention Bath? As far as I know Bath haven't finished in the Top 6 of the AV recently, so don't see why you're bringing them into the equation. Though obviously IF they were in the Top 6 and finished better than other English teams, then you could make an argument that they are more worthy than other English teams.

beshocked wrote:Smirnoffpriest bit harsh to say Exeter has a worse HC track record when this is their first HC!!

I thought I would test your little theory.

Sale

Challenge Cup -43 wins,1 draw,17 losses
Heineken Cup - 17 wins, 20 losses

Edinburgh

Challenge Cup - 2 wins, 4 losses
Heineken Cup - 34 wins,3 draws, 53 losses

Glasgow

Challenge Cup -8 wins, 1 draw, 7 losses
Heineken Cup - 25 losses, 2 draws, 52 losses

Connacht

Challenge Cup -50 wins, 48 losses
Heineken Cup - 1 win, 5 losses

Dragons

Challenge Cup - 9 wins, 5 losses
Heineken Cup - 9 wins, 33 losses

From these stats look like these sides are more suited to the Challenge Cup.

Not sure why you're bringing Connacht and the Dragons into this as, like I previously stated, under the current system they only qualify for the Amlin, and don't compete in the HEC unless they finish higher up the table than the other Welsh/Irish teams, or an Welsh/Irish team win the HEC.

I was also talking about performance in recent seasons with regards to Exeter, Edinburgh & Sale - and I know it's Exeters 1st season, seems strange that a team that has only managed to qualify for the HEC for 1 season, and this is their 1st season, can automatically be assumed to be better than last seasons Semi finalists, and therefore have more right to a place than the semi-finalist.

[quote="formerly known as Sam"]

This is very patronising, why should the Rabbo teams supply more sides into the Amlin, and who are you suggesting should take the place of the Rabbo teams in the HC ? If it is no one and we should have a shorter HC, then why can't the English or French allocate their "extra" places into the Amlin

The Rabo supply next to no sides and therefore the ability to sell sponsorship and the tv rights of the Amlin is limited. By raising the awareness of it in 5 more countries it becomes a more financially viable investment. Come on LD stop pretending you didn't see it. Tigers qualified for the HEC fair and square, did Connacht or are the living off of Leinster's success?

[quote]

So you're suggestion to the Rabo sides supply less sides, is to decrease the number of Rabo sides, and thus reducing their ability to negotiate with the French/English sides?

Seems decreasing the Rabo sides participation by a third/half because it would be unfair to decrease the English/French participation by a sixth is the best option being proposed...

Why would it result in the RABO side reducing their ability to negotiate with the clubs? All the unions have equal shares. The number of teams doesn't come into it.

And the guy above mention Bath because you were taking about teams with good records playing in the Amlin. Edinburgh got to the semi of the HEC but finish near the bottom of the league. How good are they? Doing ok in a cup suggests they're capable of the odd good performance, but the poor league performance suggests they can't sustain that.

beshocked wrote:I agree with Sam.

LordDowlais the likes of Saints and Sarries are a bigger draw than quite a few of the Pro12 sides. Okay maybe not Leinster and Munster but they are the exception not the rule.

One trump card that my team has that you might not know - the brand awareness in South Africa for Saracens is huge. Hardly surprising is it? It means people in South Africa watch Saracens in the HC.

I have heard that most of their games get coverage in South Africa. Biltongbek can you confirm this?

The brand awareness of Saracens is probably much bigger than Cardiff,Scarlets etc. They aren't getting the constant attendances but they will.

Sort out their style of play and stadium and I am confident Saracens will grow significantly in the next 5 years.

We see all the knock out matches and probably half of the pool matches.