Eng didn't just lose...were just blown away

First topic message reminder :

here are the comments from the experts...especially telling is the one from Vaughan People are trying to avoid facing Johnson
I sensed that in Swann...backing away from the line of the ball

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/25075729

Former England captain Michael Vaughan: "This could have long-term effects on England because they have been blown away. People are trying to avoid facing Johnson. They will know they have a lot of soul-searching to do. They have to come out with a different mindset in Adelaide. This is one tall order, a bigger challenge than coming back to win in India."

Ex-England batsman Geoffrey Boycott: "I think Alastair Cook would bite your hand off if you offered him retaining, rather than winning the Ashes. Perth should have more pace and bounce than Brisbane, so England could easily go 2-0 down in that match (the third one). They need to find a way of winning matches on these wickets."

Australian fast-bowling legend Glenn McGrath: "Mitchell Johnson has come back mentally tougher and sorted out a few technique issues. He's happier off the field too, with a young family, and hopefully he's going to be around a long time for Australia."

Former England captain Nasser Hussain, speaking on Sky Sports: "It's very worrying (to have lost by such a distance). They were bullied. It wasn't as though Australia started well and then continued - England were bossing the game. A lot of it has to do with the opposition, Mitchell Johnson is unrecognisable from the bowler we have seen in previous Ashes battles, the confidence and the togetherness are unrecognisable from the team we saw in England, thanks to (coach) Darren Lehmann.


Former Australia leg-spinner Shane Warne: Message to all my English followers who have been sledging me during the last Ashes series: Hope you're enjoying Brisbane.

Of course they have to water it down. What he did is the equivalent of of accusing someone of half-assing a marathon, only to find out he did it on an artificial leg. If you don't backtrack, there is something wrong with your PR guys.

No - what he did was break a moral code of conduct between fellow pro cricketers. Pretty low really.

moral code? Like I said, this only seems to exist when England have been wronged. Remember when Clarke didn't walk during the Ashes in Australia? He had to apologize a million times, yet Chris Broad high-fives his son for not walking having suspended Dinesh Ramdin on a charge which isn't even against the rule book. Faf du Plessis gets a fine for scratching the ball against his zip, but Broad only "accidentally" steps on balls. It's quite alright for England to run a player out when the batsman assumes the ball has been called dead, but when it happens to Bell "Come on Dhoni, it's not in the spirit of cricket". Quite frankly, Im tired of the hypocritical nature of the English Cricket hierarchy.

You are not grasping it are you? Do we hear any players during or after a match in the press coming out saying they know Clarke has a weak back and he can be found out on certain deliveries? No - of course not. Why? Because it is not the done thing to do - it is against a moral code of conduct. The Broad not walking thing has all been done to death and I have seen many, many test cricketers of ALL nationalities (Australian included) who have not walked when clearly they were out so Australia cannot take the moral high ground here. As for the rest such as ball tampering I do recall England being dragged over the coals -Mike Gatting wasn't it with a pocketful of dirt? So no one is above the rules whatever the nationality.

PS This is a Scotsman speaking.

I'm happy that you're a Scotsman, good for you. Are you auburn haired as well to further prove you're not biased? Don't know what you're nationality has to do with English crickets God-complex.

It seems to me you're the one who doesn't get it. You can't keep making p
up imaginary codes of conduct which only seem to broken when the offending party isn't English.

Therefore, it seems a good time to end this conversation. Have fun hunting around for like-minded comments made by pro-cricketers making similar comments to the media about fellow pros mid-match. I tell you now you won'f find any because it is that code of conduct. Exists in many sports actually.

Have fun finding a rule which pro-hibits Warner from giving his thoughts on a dismissal.

Who said there were any rules? Akin to saying there are no rules saying a man has to open a door for a lady - it is just a code of conduct. Just as not spouting to the press about a fellow pros problems is not the done thing to do. Put it this way - will Warner have gained or list respect for his remarks?

Trotts situation is very sad, and all the best to him. The management obviously thought he could be managed through the tour, but he cannot. Don't think they should be blamed for playing and bringing him on tour, it'd be like not bringing KP on tour cos one of his dodgy knees might give in. Gotta hope they pull through but Trott cant. Hopefully this isn't the end for Trott

Fair enough - I stopped rating KP when he lied about being a victim of the quota system in the middle of an international series

He was pretty poor today.
Like some big kid with silly music in his ears pretending not to hear any questions.
He's gone all quiet all of a sudden. It was very poor acting.  

Linebreaker wrote:Today we had ex-Victorian Premier, Jeff Kennett (he suffered greatly from depression and founded "Beyond Blue") come out in public and talk about the issue. No names mentioned, no one blamed - but he just reinforced the message that there are organisations out there to help anyone suffering from what Trott is going through right now.

On the other end of the scale - Justin Langer today stated that cricket "is all about inflicting psychological damage on your opponents."

I'm sure Flower is aware of this last line of thought, yet as KP_F says, maybe it was very irresponsible to let him continue playing in such an important series knowing that the problem (as we have learned in the last 24 hours) has been around "for quite some time".

Well I think I know what Langer meant ; but if he really thinks the central pillar of cricket is inflicting psychological damage then he has a somewhat skewed sense of priorities...

Any sport , especially at top level , has that aspect . But fundamentally , we are talking about a game.

And at the end of the day , skill will generally trump attitude - though you need a bit of both.

By the way : I have no problem with Clarke and his rather OTT sledging ...and neither I think has Anderson. Pretty well anything goes , on the field - verbally at least. He was unlucky to be caught , though for image sake he had to be fined.

Warner was another issue : in general I think players should refrain from sledging opponents in the media. It shows a lack of professional respect...leave the trash talk to boxers , please.

Trott has gone home , for his own good. Haven't we anything better to talk about ?

Yes, Langer does come across overly aggressive with that comment.

A lot of it was put on for the cameras. He's always fairly outspoken in the WA sense of the word.  

I maintain that falling victim to such an archaic manner of dismissal is weak, and we know why now. Trott had probably already mentally checked out. I hope he does some back, but let's see.

It's going to get more fiery, you know.

They're keeping a few bowlers away from their shield games to be ready for Perth if needed. Coulter-Nile, Bollinger, Cutting and Sayers.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/the-ashes-2013-14/content/story/692679.html

Olly wrote:Trotts situation is very sad, and all the best to him. The management obviously thought he could be managed through the tour, but he cannot. Don't think they should be blamed for playing and bringing him on tour, it'd be like not bringing KP on tour cos one of his dodgy knees might give in. Gotta hope they pull through but Trott cant. Hopefully this isn't the end for Trott

declared physical ailment of KP ....... vs a hidden mental ailment.
How is it same ?

Hidden not by Trott with the team management....... but by the management from the media and fans.

is there is an assesment that the mangement had from a qualified "clinial depression expert" of the state of mind of Trott and his readiness to play ?????
if yes where ?....why wasn't it shared with the media like the niggles / injuries / wrists, calfs, knees, thighs, back of KP and Swann and Prior and Broad and Cook are ?????

kingraf wrote:I maintain that falling victim to such an archaic manner of dismissal is weak, and we know why now. Trott had probably already mentally checked out. I hope he does some back, but let's see.

Tell you what , kingraf : you try facing someone at 150 k trying to knock your block off and then come back on...

Batsmen are often bounced out : and sometimes it doesn't look pretty. I have seen a few Australian batsmen get out to some fairly odd looking manoevres under attack from sustained quick bowling over the years : but although the press sometimes made the odd critical comment , I don't recall their opponents making a deal of it off the field. Etiquette ...

Yeah I am a bit old fashioned.

To be honest - I think, when Admin is made aware of a mental issue, the least they could and should do before a big tour is have a professional look at the player. If ECB haven't done that, then I feel they have to shoulder some of the blame.
If a player comes up to you and says he has been managing a calf injury for six months, I think getting a professional opinion is par for the course.

Tell you what, Alfie. I took a sustained barrage from Morkel during a practise game two years ago... A bit like boxing you bob, weave and get suckered by the one pitched up, or counter-attack and fail. Getting yourself into that position is a weak dismissal, and the fact that it's happened before doesn't make it any better!

I heard Nasser Hussain saying today that now they have "got rid of Trott" the Australian bowlers "will target their next batsman".

I wonder who they have in mind?

I'd think Root. But thats a pathetic statement from Nasser, seems to insinuate that Australia are responsible for Trotts current state of mind.

Well fair enough kingraf ...though if it was a practice match he might not have been at full throttle perhaps ? Was there a speed gun on duty ? 

Anyway my point was not fundamentally about how you or Trott or Warner handle short pitched fast bowling : just that I don't believe in putting down your opponents in a public forum.  So we'll agree to differ.

Root would be the easier target but I have a feeling it may be Bell.

That was more of a provocative and silly statement from Nasser.
A former England captain blurting out the bleeding obvious. It was totally unnecessary and irresponsible thing to do - draw even more attention to his team's current plight - and it's the last thing he should say to the press. Talk about adding pressure!

It's like sticking your hand up in a trench... on behalf of the current squad of players.
What a nice and considerate bloke!

Fail.

At a guess, I'd say he was going at 85%, with a few effort balls chucked in. I've never condoned Warner calling Trott out, but I don't think it's the sin many are making it out to be. Would I call a players dismissal weak in front of the media? Probably not. But there is a huge difference between calling a player weak and stupid, and calling a dismissal weak. He's apologised and I think that should be that, but Trott was in a bad space, and as is the case when bad things happen - someone has to be blamed, and who better than the loudmouth who punched Root.

Linebreaker wrote:I heard Nasser Hussain saying today that now they have "got rid of Trott" the Australian bowlers "will target their next batsman".

I wonder who they have in mind?

Nasser is seeing it like it is......minus the cloaks of human sympathies that the English mangement is trying to cover this issue with.

The "Pretty Girl " Root is one obvious target........but Cook might the one to break as he has taken the bait and responded to Warne and Warner....twice now.
This is what a media/ communications manager is for....make statement on behalf of the team management...and isolate individuals from target.

My opinion of Nasser has lowered by a factor of like a thousand. He's a hypocrite who seems to struggle to remember his previous thoughts on a subject once an Englishman gets involved.

I've gone a few circles with him over the years. He doesn't really bother me much.

I'm just waiting for him to use bigger superlatives. It can't get any more "brilliant", can it?

He's prone to getting carried away with words and he has a very short memory too.

True we were battered.

kingraf wrote:moral code? Like I said, this only seems to exist when England have been wronged. Remember when Clarke didn't walk during the Ashes in Australia? He had to apologize a million times, yet Chris Broad high-fives his son for not walking having suspended Dinesh Ramdin on a charge which isn't even against the rule book. Faf du Plessis gets a fine for scratching the ball against his zip, but Broad only "accidentally" steps on balls. It's quite alright for England to run a player out when the batsman assumes the ball has been called dead, but when it happens to Bell "Come on Dhoni, it's not in the spirit of cricket". Quite frankly, Im tired of the hypocritical nature of the English Cricket hierarchy.

Have to agree with kingraf here, Cook would have been doing well to leave that alone. Perhaps the real situation with Trott might have forced the issue with the captain, but projecting it as the ultimate sin in the game of cricket is far too much and appears as a reflection of a holier than thou attitude that doesn't suit English cricket.

Its just banter back at them mate....

Good one, make them feel all sheepish and guilty. That will take the edge of there performances!!

msp83 wrote:

kingraf wrote:moral code? Like I said, this only seems to exist when England have been wronged. Remember when Clarke didn't walk during the Ashes in Australia? He had to apologize a million times, yet Chris Broad high-fives his son for not walking having suspended Dinesh Ramdin on a charge which isn't even against the rule book. Faf du Plessis gets a fine for scratching the ball against his zip, but Broad only "accidentally" steps on balls. It's quite alright for England to run a player out when the batsman assumes the ball has been called dead, but when it happens to Bell "Come on Dhoni, it's not in the spirit of cricket". Quite frankly, Im tired of the hypocritical nature of the English Cricket hierarchy.

Have to agree with kingraf here, Cook would have been doing well to leave that alone. Perhaps the real situation with Trott might have forced the issue with the captain, but projecting it as the ultimate sin in the game of cricket is far too much and appears as a reflection of a holier than thou attitude that doesn't suit English cricket.

Stuart Broad got ridiculed for not walking, as did Collingwood for running out the Kiwi player.

England should focus on their game rather than the mental disintegration strategies of the Australians. The Australians are masters at it, it can get on your nerve, but that's the sureshot way to disaster. Perhaps they should get on the phone to Dada Sourav as early as possible. He did give it back, even better than he got. Remember his late appearance for the toss much to the displeasure of the master disintegrationist Steve Waugh?

It's quite a long list of issues with ECB, though Stella. Harks back to "make them grovel". If Broad was ridiculed for walking then I must have missed it. I saw Lehmann moan a bit, and Nasser Hussain complete a complete 180 on his thoughts about walking. Even the ultimate walker, Gilchrist thought it was acceptable. What of KP flat out accusing CSA of racial victimization, when the truth is apparently far more sinister (on the part of KP). Funny enough, he made these accusations during an international series. Instead of being scolded, he has been made a martyr by media, instead of a lying, manipulative git. Collingwood had the gall to stand his ground when he got run out in a similar situation, practically begging his case using "The Spirit of Cricket" during his comeuppance.

msp83 wrote:England should focus on their game rather than the mental disintegration strategies of the Australians. The Australians are masters at it, it can get on your nerve, but that's the sureshot way to disaster. Perhaps they should get on the phone to Dada Sourav as early as possible. He did give it back, even better than he got. Remember his late appearance for the toss much to the displeasure of the master disintegrationist Steve Waugh?

Cook has answered a couple of questions, honestly, but what else have we done that's made us look like we are letting them get under our skins?

Stella wrote:

msp83 wrote:

kingraf wrote:moral code? Like I said, this only seems to exist when England have been wronged. Remember when Clarke didn't walk during the Ashes in Australia? He had to apologize a million times, yet Chris Broad high-fives his son for not walking having suspended Dinesh Ramdin on a charge which isn't even against the rule book. Faf du Plessis gets a fine for scratching the ball against his zip, but Broad only "accidentally" steps on balls. It's quite alright for England to run a player out when the batsman assumes the ball has been called dead, but when it happens to Bell "Come on Dhoni, it's not in the spirit of cricket". Quite frankly, Im tired of the hypocritical nature of the English Cricket hierarchy.

Have to agree with kingraf here, Cook would have been doing well to leave that alone. Perhaps the real situation with Trott might have forced the issue with the captain, but projecting it as the ultimate sin in the game of cricket is far too much and appears as a reflection of a holier than thou attitude that doesn't suit English cricket.

Stuart Broad got ridiculed for not walking, as did Collingwood for running out the Kiwi player.

Perhaps revisiting some of those debates would give a clearer picture. About the scales and inconsistencies.......

msp83 wrote:Perhaps they should get on the phone to Dada Sourav as early as possible. He did give it back, even better than he got. Remember his late appearance for the toss much to the displeasure of the master disintegrationist Steve Waugh?

That was brilliant I thought. Really got under Waugh's skin as well.

I think Trott's condition explains why Cook reacted so angrily to Warner's words in the first place.

Kingraf

Broad got plenty of stick by some of the press. Must admit, plenty of ex players were ok with it, but these same players would have been ok with Clarke not walking as well.

msp83 wrote:

Stella wrote:

msp83 wrote:

kingraf wrote:moral code? Like I said, this only seems to exist when England have been wronged. Remember when Clarke didn't walk during the Ashes in Australia? He had to apologize a million times, yet Chris Broad high-fives his son for not walking having suspended Dinesh Ramdin on a charge which isn't even against the rule book. Faf du Plessis gets a fine for scratching the ball against his zip, but Broad only "accidentally" steps on balls. It's quite alright for England to run a player out when the batsman assumes the ball has been called dead, but when it happens to Bell "Come on Dhoni, it's not in the spirit of cricket". Quite frankly, Im tired of the hypocritical nature of the English Cricket hierarchy.

Have to agree with kingraf here, Cook would have been doing well to leave that alone. Perhaps the real situation with Trott might have forced the issue with the captain, but projecting it as the ultimate sin in the game of cricket is far too much and appears as a reflection of a holier than thou attitude that doesn't suit English cricket.

Stuart Broad got ridiculed for not walking, as did Collingwood for running out the Kiwi player.

Perhaps revisiting some of those debates would give a clearer picture. About the scales and inconsistencies.......

Well Clarke and Broad, and whoever would have the same treatment by most of us, I would say. Yes, a couple of jingoistic people will always favour the home boy, in all countries.

Stella wrote:

msp83 wrote:England should focus on their game rather than the mental disintegration strategies of the Australians. The Australians are masters at it, it can get on your nerve, but that's the sureshot way to disaster. Perhaps they should get on the phone to Dada Sourav as early as possible. He did give it back, even better than he got. Remember his late appearance for the toss much to the displeasure of the master disintegrationist Steve Waugh?

Cook has answered a couple of questions, honestly, but what else have we done that's made us look like we are letting them get under our skins?

Both Cook and Andy Flower responded to the statement of Warner. And they invoked respect and professionalism and stuff. Perhaps saying its not worth responding to would have been a better response. Perhaps they could have said something about Warner's past actions and advised him to stay focused on his game....... Cook tried answering Warne the other master disintegranist, and at that point of the series, that too was unnecessary in my view.

msp83 wrote:

Stella wrote:

msp83 wrote:England should focus on their game rather than the mental disintegration strategies of the Australians. The Australians are masters at it, it can get on your nerve, but that's the sureshot way to disaster. Perhaps they should get on the phone to Dada Sourav as early as possible. He did give it back, even better than he got. Remember his late appearance for the toss much to the displeasure of the master disintegrationist Steve Waugh?

Cook has answered a couple of questions, honestly, but what else have we done that's made us look like we are letting them get under our skins?

Both Cook and Andy Flower responded to the statement of Warner. And they invoked respect and professionalism and stuff. Perhaps saying its not worth responding to would have been a better response. Perhaps they could have said something about Warner's past actions and advised him to stay focused on his game....... Cook tried answering Warne the other master disintegranist, and at that point of the series, that too was unnecessary in my view.

I'd rather an honest answer than a b...s...t one. And what's to say this is a bad way of going about it?

Its about the message that the responses would send out. Don't think they are quite the right ones from the point of view of the contest at hand.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/the-ashes-2013-14/content/story/693503.html

Flower calls for a meeting to define the acceptable limits of sledging.

and Lehmann rejects it.

Talk about "who blinks first"...and here England have blinked a dozen times first.

and what did Flower intend to agree with Lehmann:

1) It's OK to say I will punch you but not break the arm ?
2) do not use F*** or C*** word more than two times per inning
3) You can call Root only Pretty or only Girl but not Pretty girl same time


Boy.....Aussies must be smelling blood.

Flower and Cook don't  now the ground rules ??....you don't request the school bully for mercy....but simply stand up and give it back....if you can  

A little difficult to set boundaries when sledging.

Cooks just a nice lad and doesn't get the whole sledging thing..

But anyway this will only motivate us to crush them even more

Haha, like Anderson and Broad will listen to any guidelines on sledging anyway. They just haven't been idiotic enough to get caught by the stump mics doing it. What happens on the field, stays on the field but unfortunately for Michael Clarke every viewer at home watching heard it to. Hence, he had to be fined.

You stay classy: https://twitter.com/craigadoyle/status/405266816282673152/photo/1

All bloody newspapers are as bad as each other, talk about the actual cricket.

It's one of those headlines that are funny because of how incredibly unfunny they are. What on earth is Clarke doing on the front page?

Flower certainly lost it a bit there. He has to get back to focusing on his side rather than getting distracted by the time tested tactics of the Australians. Christian Ryan wrote about how perceptions about Australia being an unlikable team should now change. I don't think so, but Andy flower should stay focused on what he should do rather than all these nonsense.

Well there are two ways this could go.

Firstly, the Australians will get stronger and increase their mental edge whilst England capitulate especially if they cannot raise their game. Series loss something like 2-0.

On the other hand, England round the wagons, use Australian comments to motivate and inspire them to up their game and rest back the initiative they handed over in Brisbane. Series could be turned around to a 2-1 win.

Can't see England not getting a result at Adelaide. I mean if they can't at least avoid defeat there, they really are on a hiding to nothing, as Perth is probably the second quickest wicket in the world.

CaledonianCraig wrote:Well there are two ways this could go.

Firstly, the Australians will get stronger and increase their mental edge whilst England capitulate especially if they cannot raise their game. Series loss something like 2-0.

On the other hand, England round the wagons, use Australian comments to motivate and inspire them to up their game and rest back the initiative they handed over in Brisbane. Series could be turned around to a 2-1 win.

yes buddy....in most situations life throws up only 2 options