Eng didn't just lose...were just blown away

by KP_fan Sun 24 Nov 2013, 3:48 pm

First topic message reminder :

here are the comments from the experts...especially telling is the one from Vaughan People are trying to avoid facing Johnson
I sensed that in Swann...backing away from the line of the ball

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/25075729

Former England captain Michael Vaughan: "This could have long-term effects on England because they have been blown away. People are trying to avoid facing Johnson. They will know they have a lot of soul-searching to do. They have to come out with a different mindset in Adelaide. This is one tall order, a bigger challenge than coming back to win in India."

Ex-England batsman Geoffrey Boycott: "I think Alastair Cook would bite your hand off if you offered him retaining, rather than winning the Ashes. Perth should have more pace and bounce than Brisbane, so England could easily go 2-0 down in that match (the third one). They need to find a way of winning matches on these wickets."

Australian fast-bowling legend Glenn McGrath: "Mitchell Johnson has come back mentally tougher and sorted out a few technique issues. He's happier off the field too, with a young family, and hopefully he's going to be around a long time for Australia."

Former England captain Nasser Hussain, speaking on Sky Sports: "It's very worrying (to have lost by such a distance). They were bullied. It wasn't as though Australia started well and then continued - England were bossing the game. A lot of it has to do with the opposition, Mitchell Johnson is unrecognisable from the bowler we have seen in previous Ashes battles, the confidence and the togetherness are unrecognisable from the team we saw in England, thanks to (coach) Darren Lehmann.

Former Australia leg-spinner Shane Warne: Message to all my English followers who have been sledging me during the last Ashes series: Hope you're enjoying Brisbane.

by Hoggy_Bear Mon 25 Nov 2013, 11:49 am

KP_Fan
But what are you criticising the management for?
For taking Trott in the first place, or for allowing him to go home?

by CaledonianCraig Mon 25 Nov 2013, 11:53 am

Hoggy_Bear wrote:KP_Fan
But what are you criticising the management for?
For taking Trott in the first place, or for allowing him to go home?

Or both??

by kingraf Mon 25 Nov 2013, 12:11 pm

Gotta feel for Trotty here. Always suspected there are things going on mentally (I admit it was just a hunch, based on nothing more but his extreme desire to have things just right before every ball). I suffer from bouts of severe anxiety and these things are the the absolute worst to have to deal with. I remember playing in a provincial week two years ago, and one of my sponsored bats broke during a net session (I'd caned runs for fun with that willow the whole year). I couldnt sleep and got myself severe cramps from the stress the entire week.

by **Pal Joey** Mon 25 Nov 2013, 12:18 pm

Is any batsman flying out as a replacement does anybody know?

Who would be next in line as a 'pure' batsman to cover for either Bairstow or Ballance's promotion to the XI?

by Hoggy_Bear Mon 25 Nov 2013, 12:24 pm

Linebreaker wrote:Is any batsman flying out as a replacement does anybody know?

Not at this moment in time, as far as I'm aware

Who would be next in line as a 'pure' batsman to cover for either Bairstow or Ballance's promotion to the XI?

James Taylor or Nick Compton I'd have thought

by **Enforcer** Mon 25 Nov 2013, 12:33 pm

The only reason you're blaming the management is because you don't want to blame Trott, when there is a chance he has made the situation worse.

Or there is the more likely scenario that everyone acted acceptably with regards to the situation and an unexpected change has resulted in these events.

There doesn't have to be someone to blame for everything. Equally blame can be apportioned over more than one party. Life isn't black and white, there can be shades of grey (around 50 I'm told).

by **Pal Joey** Mon 25 Nov 2013, 12:44 pm

Hoggy_Bear wrote:
Linebreaker wrote:Is any batsman flying out as a replacement does anybody know?

Not at this moment in time, as far as I'm aware

Who would be next in line as a 'pure' batsman to cover for either Bairstow or Ballance's promotion to the XI?

James Taylor or Nick Compton I'd have thought

Thanks Hoggy.

Would you bring one or both of them out? One or the other? Smile

by kingraf Mon 25 Nov 2013, 1:06 pm

Clarke telling a tailender they'll break his f**king arm is a little disconcerting, but I struggle to believe there was any added malice in that statement, rather an exaggeration of the obvious (and probably a little bit of needle since England have peppered Clarke with the short stuff for the best part of six tests). I mean, realistically looking at it, Aus were already going at the ribs, did the threat upgrade Johnson's arm by 10kph, and a radar? If this is 20% worth of talk, then the ! '99-'07 Australian cricket team should probably have been playing for free with their potty mouths

by Hoggy_Bear Mon 25 Nov 2013, 1:16 pm

Linebreaker wrote:
Hoggy_Bear wrote:
Linebreaker wrote:Is any batsman flying out as a replacement does anybody know?

Not at this moment in time, as far as I'm aware

Who would be next in line as a 'pure' batsman to cover for either Bairstow or Ballance's promotion to the XI?

James Taylor or Nick Compton I'd have thought
Thanks Hoggy.

Would you bring one or both of them out? One or the other?

Personally, of the two I'd probably bring Compton out, much as I am a fan of Taylor. Just think his slightly greater experience would be a bonus.

by msp83 Mon 25 Nov 2013, 1:59 pm

I think they should bring Compton in and bat him at 3. I'd be surprised if they pick him though.

by Duty281 Mon 25 Nov 2013, 3:27 pm

KP_fan wrote:
You never, never show your fear / anxiety/ stress to the enemy in the midst of a war.
There would be many other ways of handling this alternatively.

What a lovely, understanding and compassionate view of mental illness this is.

Maybe you should realise that some things are more important than sport, including your health and your own mental wellbeing.

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 25 Nov 2013, 3:46 pm

Very sorry for Trott because he no doubt has sufferd with a terrible illness that can affect anybody in any profession at anytime....Also sorry for him at the timing of his departure....

With words like pitiful, weak being chucked It can look to many as he's been humiliated and is legging it.........Which is not the Man or the cricketer !!

England got hammered and were all out for 51 in WI a few years back and had the better of the series.......Best not to get to up in arms after losing one test.......

They hit back in Adelaide......They get confidence back and momentum too.......

This Aussie side don't like it up them..................Just don't need to panic England lots of time left..

by kingraf Mon 25 Nov 2013, 3:53 pm

I must say, England are still favored to win this. Adelaide is a flat track, but if it does anything, it turns, and you have to think Swann is a better weapon Lyon. If England can't score huge first innings there, I'd be incredibly worried about England's chances of leaving this tour with any positives

by KP_fan Mon 25 Nov 2013, 3:57 pm

Hoggy_Bear wrote:KP_Fan
But what are you criticising the management for?

--bringing Trott when they knew he had a stress mental illness.......into the series. That he was let go means it was serious and yet they brought...not mindful of what adverse impact iit can cause on the rest of the team morale if it blows up on tour.

--More importantly no ownership of the messy situation.......dump it completely on Trott....make it appeart to the world it's entirely Trott's ownership that he had / has a problem...cannot manage it...wants to go back.

by **Fists of Fury** Mon 25 Nov 2013, 4:01 pm

Duty281 wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
You never, never show your fear / anxiety/ stress to the enemy in the midst of a war.
There would be many other ways of handling this alternatively.

What a lovely, understanding and compassionate view of mental illness this is.

Maybe you should realise that some things are more important than sport, including your health and your own mental wellbeing.

I'm not sure mental wellbeing and KP_fan are two things that go hand in hand, duty.

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 25 Nov 2013, 4:05 pm

People don't understand mental illness.........They see a guy with a beautiful wife, lots of money, a family, nice house and think what has he got to be depressed about....

They don't get it.................They are the same people that think alcoholics enjoy drinking.......

by KP_fan Mon 25 Nov 2013, 4:06 pm

Enforcer wrote:The only reason you're blaming the management is because you don't want to blame Trott, when there is a chance he has made the situation worse.

Or there is the more likely scenario that everyone acted acceptably with regards to the situation and an unexpected change has resulted in these events.

There doesn't have to be someone to blame for everything. Equally blame can be apportioned over more than one party. Life isn't black and white, there can be shades of grey (around 50 I'm told).

--when things go wrong unless it's an absolutely freak accident...someone has to take the blame. This incident does not fall in the category of a freak accident. And when the incident is involving stars / national interests / mass followed activities....sure someone has to answer.
One can shut a private life out...but not when public figures and mass folowed events are involved.

--Equal blame approportioning is evading the situation......which often times means the problem might recurr.

--I agree life ain't entirely black and white most times. But in many situations...a clear black, a clear white and a hazy unclear grey can be delineated.
Painting the entire situation as hazy grey......means as I said.....evading the problem....means it will recurr..means the masses/ fan following for the public event do not get an answer when they are entiteld to.

So Dear Enforcer....unfortunately it seems we look at life very diffrently....no disrespect to your thinking intended...but I have explined my POV...regards

by dyrewolfe Mon 25 Nov 2013, 6:06 pm

Hey, crap happens.

The management may have admitted Trott's condition was a known, long-term problem, but if thats the case, he was dealing with it pretty well until recently.

Neither the management or Trott himself, could have foreseen England would be so completely and utterly annihilated in the first match. It would have been a crushing experience for the whole team. For a guy already dealing with mental issues, it could easily have been the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back.

For another thing, none of the England players exactly covered themselves in glory (other than Stuart Broad during the Aussie 1st innings). They failed collectively and even if Trott had made a ton in each innings it wouldn't have changed the outcome of the match.

Needless to say, I offer my sincerest wishes for a speedy recovery and hope to see him back in an England shirt at some point.

The best thing you can say about this is that at least it happened fairly early in the tour and England have the chance to bring in a replacement and gear themselves up for a fightback.

Its pointless blaming anyone. It won't change whats happened. Even if the management had decided to replace Trott prior to the start of the tour, we'd still be 1-0 down.

by KP_fan Mon 25 Nov 2013, 8:55 pm

Duty281 wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
You never, never show your fear / anxiety/ stress to the enemy in the midst of a war.
There would be many other ways of handling this alternatively.

What a lovely, understanding and compassionate view of mental illness this is.

Maybe you should realise that some things are more important than sport, including your health and your own mental wellbeing.

I realize....but Eng management didn't ...else they would have taken preventive actions before the melt-down

by KP_fan Mon 25 Nov 2013, 9:02 pm

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/nov/25/shane-warne-fine-australia-michael-clarke

on the orginal subject of the thread....Warne has asked for Anderson to be fined...because he said he would punch Bailey...and Warne heard it on Channel9

Now ICC will have to ask channel 9 for evidence..however Channel 9 has apologized to Clarke Shocked

Channel Nine apologised to Clarke for leaving the stump microphone on between overs, when they would normally have been away for a commercial break. "It's obviously a very rare and isolated error on our part and we'll do our best to ensure it never happens again," Nine's head of sport, Steve Crawley, told Fairfax media. "He an outstanding Australian cricket captain who's just led his team to a marvellous and historic win. He doesn't need or deserve that to be tarnished by our error and we of course apologise.''

by Duty281 Mon 25 Nov 2013, 9:04 pm

KP_fan wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
You never, never show your fear / anxiety/ stress to the enemy in the midst of a war.
There would be many other ways of handling this alternatively.

What a lovely, understanding and compassionate view of mental illness this is.

Maybe you should realise that some things are more important than sport, including your health and your own mental wellbeing.
I realize....but Eng management didn't ...else they would have taken preventive actions before the melt-down

So you realised before the story broke did you?

Mental illnesses are always difficult to figure out - in my experience, the person suffering has good days and (mostly) bad days. You ultimately think it's not as bad as it is, but there are some days when you just want the world to go away. The last place you want to be while suffering a mental illness is 12,000 miles from home, playing in an high-intensity sporting environment.

by KP_fan Mon 25 Nov 2013, 9:07 pm

It doesn't reach the melt-down point in 4 days.

If he broke down today...then he was at the edge at at the start of the T1...and management confessed they knew.

Apathy/ insensitivity/ selfish interests......whatever be the reason.....they drove Trott into the test.

So you realised before the story broke did you?

Mental illnesses are always difficult to figure out - in my experience, the person suffering has good days and (mostly) bad days. You ultimately think it's not as bad as it is, but there are some days when you just want the world to go away. The last place you want to be while suffering a mental illness is 12,000 miles from home, playing in an high-intensity sporting environment..

by msp83 Mon 25 Nov 2013, 9:07 pm

No fan of Michael Clarke, but yet again, just like they did it with Ramdin, the ICC has created a mess out of this situation. And yet again, all that is going to blow up on their faces. Jokers!.

by KP_fan Mon 25 Nov 2013, 9:24 pm

msp83 wrote:No fan of Michael Clarke, but yet again, just like they did it with Ramdin, the ICC has created a mess out of this situation. And yet again, all that is going to blow up on their faces. Jokers!.

Neil Manthorpe the journilist / commentator from SA not too long back very aptly wrote......that ICC is like the manager of a posh private club...one member complains and they take action...the other one complains they take action against the first...rich members voice is stronger than the poorer members....

I wrote yesterday...Clarke will be punished " for being caught on mic"....and shockingly channel 9 apologises to Clarke

by KP_fan Mon 25 Nov 2013, 9:36 pm

and here is Mike Selvey asking some questions.....that aught to be asked

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2013/nov/25/jonathan-trott-england-australia-ashes

The questions, from anyone who has followed the progress of the first Ashes Test, are as inevitable as the bouncers Jonathan Trott received from Mitchell Johnson. Is his departure from the tour directly contingent on the nature of his batting in the match? Was his fragile condition further tipped towards the edge by the comments directed at him through the media by David Warner? And if neither of these was an issue, what was he doing playing in the match in the first place?

by CaledonianCraig Mon 25 Nov 2013, 10:22 pm

Trott has handled sledging of equal proportions throughout his career and come through with a test batting average closer to 50 than 40. That alone tells me that Warner's jibes were ill-advised and ill-timed but had no bearing on Trott's performance. By those inside in the camp Trott has been managing this stress-related problem for some time and would expkain his dip in form in recent tests. His problem has not impacting on the team though as Ashes Series have been won and tour success came in India. Management felt he could also 'manage' the problem Down Under but following a First Test thrashing, a flop by Trott and him being verbally abused by Warner then stress levels for him will undoubtedly have become unmanagable so rightly so he is going home. Right decision - time to move on from this now I think.

by Icu Mon 25 Nov 2013, 10:55 pm

Duty281 wrote:Australia are starting to show their true colours again. Pretty vile cricket team it would appear....again, not to mention how a sizeable minority of their fans behave.

Ya, once they start urinating on the wicket and punching out bouncers in nightclubs they'll almost be as vile as England.

Duty281 wrote:I don't mind banter or sledging, but threatening someone with deliberate injury is assault.

I suppose big bad jimmy threatening to punch George Bailey is just banter eh chap? Quit with the 'holier-than-thou' attitude. Hypocritical at best, pathetic at worst.

by Duty281 Mon 25 Nov 2013, 11:01 pm

Holier than thou? All I can say is:

I am an Englishman, and I am superior to those from other lands.

Now off you go me old son.

by Icu Mon 25 Nov 2013, 11:07 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:Sure we all know Trott is struggling but to try to score cheap points calling a fellow player 'weak and scared' is out of order in my opinion.

But Warner didn't call Trott weak and scared. Take the time to listen and/or read what he said. Warner said the way Trott got out was 'pretty weak' and the English players had 'scared eyes' - both of which were true. As to whether he should have said that at a press conference is debatable and in my opinion he shouldn't have said it. Those things should be kept in-house. As per, the English fans and some of the press don't listen to what was actually said. There is a big difference between calling someone weak and pointing out they played a weak shot.

by Icu Mon 25 Nov 2013, 11:11 pm

Duty281 wrote:Holier than thou? All I can say is:

I am an Englishman, and I am superior to those from other lands.

Now off you go me old son.

No, not superior just hypocritical but that's par for the course.

by Duty281 Mon 25 Nov 2013, 11:15 pm

Oh all right then:

1) That's off the field isn't it? I said vile cricket team, I'm not bringing off the field matters into it. Otherwise I could have mentioned Warner. Not that Panesar did punch a bouncer.

2) A claim, thus far not proven, by Shane Warne.

by kingraf Tue 26 Nov 2013, 6:23 am

Warner rightfully apologized for calling Trott weak, but I don't think he was out of line for calling the English batters weak for being trundled by a archaic tactic. As for the Clarke-Anderson debacle, judging by both players, it's the sort of thing which gets left in the field. I doubt Bailey actually thought Anderson would punch him, as much as I doubt Anderson thought Johnson would now break the sound barrier in an attempt to break Anderson's arm.

by CaledonianCraig Tue 26 Nov 2013, 8:21 am

Icu wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:Sure we all know Trott is struggling but to try to score cheap points calling a fellow player 'weak and scared' is out of order in my opinion.
But Warner didn't call Trott weak and scared. Take the time to listen and/or read what he said. Warner said the way Trott got out was 'pretty weak' and the English players had 'scared eyes' - both of which were true. As to whether he should have said that at a press conference is debatable and in my opinion he shouldn't have said it. Those things should be kept in-house. As per, the English fans and some of the press don't listen to what was actually said. There is a big difference between calling someone weak and pointing out they played a weak shot.

However, he said it or meant it - it was out of order. I cannot recall any like-minded remarks in the press where a fellow pro has come out and made personal and hurtful remarks about another player's dismissal/form. For me and obviously the huge majority of pundits, ex pros and current pros it was cheap and nasty and ill-timed.

by kingraf Tue 26 Nov 2013, 8:27 am

I'm with ICU. He didn't call Trott weak. He pointed out the obvious

by CaledonianCraig Tue 26 Nov 2013, 8:30 am

However, he said it it was wrong, wrong, wrong. It breaks a kind of players code of conduct - however accurate it may have been.

by **Pal Joey** Tue 26 Nov 2013, 8:35 am

I'm with Craig on this. Imagine if England sent a volley of true statements back to us?

You don't say that sort of thing either directly or indirectly about an opposition player or team.

by kingraf Tue 26 Nov 2013, 8:40 am

So, should commentators also now back away from criticizing silly dismissals because the players might be suffering from stress-related illnesses?

Spin it however you like, but getting dismissed because you couldn't handle a tactic as archaic as short pitched bowling deserves criticism. I think it's weak, and could probably find a dozen club players in my area who could handle the spell. Trotts mental issues is a separate issue from whether or not he was dismissed in a weak manner. Of course, the English team would have known about Trott's problems, so they found any criticism of his mental state disrespectful, but I dont see how what Warner said is suddenly a criminal offence.

by KP_fan Tue 26 Nov 2013, 8:45 am

England can conplain....that Aussies are being rude and not nice and saying dirty things and disrespectful.......and give coginzance to the Aussie tac-tics.

OR
They can let their bats and balls do the talking....so far there has been one English player who has stood manfully Broad.

Others have to stand up like men...

Cook's big test...made complicated and messy by his own management

by CaledonianCraig Tue 26 Nov 2013, 8:48 am

Commentators are not fellow pro cricketers - huge difference and besides it had been much-discussed - Trott's technical issues but in the right and correct matter. Why do you think you have never heard England players in the press pointing to Clarke's back injury as a weakness and saying they'll target that and play on it. They don't because it is against a code of conduct. Sadly, you don't seem to understand that.

by **Pal Joey** Tue 26 Nov 2013, 8:50 am

I see what you are saying, raf.

Anyway, it's best that he's opted out of the physical and verbal barrage and returned home to his family.

His departure leaves a bit of hole in England's lineup and adds even more pressure to the team now.

by CaledonianCraig Tue 26 Nov 2013, 8:52 am

Please KP Fan stop stooping low enough to try to use this unfortunate incident to score points against management who I've already pointed out handled this correctly. Trott had problem for a while and felt he could manage it (and had in recent series) so was included again due to his talismanic image. Unfortunately, it was just one series too far but correct decision made in sending Trott home.

by kingraf Tue 26 Nov 2013, 8:56 am

Commenting on the state of a players health, and commenting on a players dismissal is not the same thing though CC. Please don't tell me about unwritten codes of conduct which only make appearances when England feel wronged. I sympathise with Trott, like I said I suffer from bouts of severe anxiety, but a short pitched spell is hardly a the second coming of the nuclear war, and popping a ball up with a nothing shot is a weak way to get out.

by KP_fan Tue 26 Nov 2013, 8:59 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:Please KP Fan stop stooping low enough to try to use this unfortunate incident to score points against management who I've already pointed out handled this correctly. Trott had problem for a while and felt he could manage it (and had in recent series) so was included again due to his talismanic image. Unfortunately, it was just one series too far but correct decision made in sending Trott home.

Please stop using a poor Trott and his sickness as a cushion to grant immunity to the management.

Correctness of the handling of the issue by management......will in how the results appear in remaining 4 tests.

Eng could crumble to powder in the complicted mess of Trott-gate following the monumental defeat.......
OR they could gel, stand manfully as one unit insulated from the chit-chat of media and chutpaz of Warne and Warner....and deliver what matters....with bat and ball.

But please do not use a sick man as a cushion to grant immunity to the sane and deemed wise, running the cricket...only a few series back they invoked the infamous KP-gate and surrendered their No.1 ranking.

by KP_fan Tue 26 Nov 2013, 9:02 am

kingraf wrote:Commenting on the state of a players health, and commenting on a players dismissal is not the same thing though CC. Please don't tell me about unwritten codes of conduct which only make appearances when England feel wronged. I sympathise with Trott, like I said I suffer from bouts of severe anxiety, but a short pitched spell is hardly a the second coming of the nuclear war, and popping a ball up with a nothing shot is a weak way to get out.

The only people guitly of insensitively handling Trott's health are Flower & Co.
No one in the Aussie media said anything about Trott AFTER his illness was delcared.

Meanwhile Flower & Co. knew facts...allowed Trott to be driven to the edge ......and worst in the end dumped him disassociating themselves completely with the end fate of Trott and that too publicly.

by kingraf Tue 26 Nov 2013, 9:08 am

Dude, that is not what I'm saying. Allowing a player to play with an injury, especially mental is completely acceptable if the player thinks he can continue, and you got a professional opinion confirming that. England would only be negligent, imo if a) they didnt get a professional opinion, and b) they didn't have a contingency plan

by Hoggy_Bear Tue 26 Nov 2013, 9:11 am

KP_Fan
Don't see how future results can be seen as justifying (or not) the decision to send Trott home. England may go on to win or lose and might have done exactly the same whether Trott was there or not.
Regardless, this is one isue where the individual comes before the team IMO, so the question should be 'Has the correct decision been taken with regard to Trott as an individual'. I think the answer to that is yes.

by **Pal Joey** Tue 26 Nov 2013, 9:11 am

Today we had ex-Victorian Premier, Jeff Kennett (he suffered greatly from depression and founded "Beyond Blue") come out in public and talk about the issue. No names mentioned, no one blamed - but he just reinforced the message that there are organisations out there to help anyone suffering from what Trott is going through right now.

On the other end of the scale - Justin Langer today stated that cricket "is all about inflicting psychological damage on your opponents."

I'm sure Flower is aware of this last line of thought, yet as KP_F says, maybe it was very irresponsible to let him continue playing in such an important series knowing that the problem (as we have learned in the last 24 hours) has been around "for quite some time".

by CaledonianCraig Tue 26 Nov 2013, 9:18 am

Of course Langer is correct but I am sure he means in twrms of inflicting that psychological damage out on the pitch and leaving it there until they come back out onto the pitch again and not carrying it on into the press with cheap jibes. Lets remember we know Warner is short of moral scruples and the art of how to conduct himself as shown with the Root incident last summer.

by kingraf Tue 26 Nov 2013, 9:21 am

Punching a player doesn't suddenly mean you have no scruples. More likely, that you need either anger management or AA. He hit a grown man, not octogenarian lady preparing for the Masters Olympics.

by CaledonianCraig Tue 26 Nov 2013, 9:27 am

Who he hit is immaterial - the fact he did it whilst on tour representing his country is shameful. Likewise, commenting to the media about a fellow pro mid-match on their mental state/courage is also shameful. Hence Cook's reaction and the Aussies move to tey to water Warner's comments down.

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