Eng didn't just lose...were just blown away

First topic message reminder :

here are the comments from the experts...especially telling is the one from Vaughan People are trying to avoid facing Johnson
I sensed that in Swann...backing away from the line of the ball

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/25075729

Former England captain Michael Vaughan: "This could have long-term effects on England because they have been blown away. People are trying to avoid facing Johnson. They will know they have a lot of soul-searching to do. They have to come out with a different mindset in Adelaide. This is one tall order, a bigger challenge than coming back to win in India."

Ex-England batsman Geoffrey Boycott: "I think Alastair Cook would bite your hand off if you offered him retaining, rather than winning the Ashes. Perth should have more pace and bounce than Brisbane, so England could easily go 2-0 down in that match (the third one). They need to find a way of winning matches on these wickets."

Australian fast-bowling legend Glenn McGrath: "Mitchell Johnson has come back mentally tougher and sorted out a few technique issues. He's happier off the field too, with a young family, and hopefully he's going to be around a long time for Australia."

Former England captain Nasser Hussain, speaking on Sky Sports: "It's very worrying (to have lost by such a distance). They were bullied. It wasn't as though Australia started well and then continued - England were bossing the game. A lot of it has to do with the opposition, Mitchell Johnson is unrecognisable from the bowler we have seen in previous Ashes battles, the confidence and the togetherness are unrecognisable from the team we saw in England, thanks to (coach) Darren Lehmann.


Former Australia leg-spinner Shane Warne: Message to all my English followers who have been sledging me during the last Ashes series: Hope you're enjoying Brisbane.

No it tells you haven't got the foggiest idea about it.

I cant be clearer with you on this, i think you are very naive, very patronizing and you do not have a clue, There are literally loads of sportsmen out there with depression, as there are in every field..

there are loads of players with aching bones and knees and niggles......whether their injury is trivial or serious requirees an expert to judge.
and then issue a match fitness certificate.

same applies to mental illness and depression illness......once it's known an expert needs to to determine the triviality or seriousness of it...and issue a match certificate

"Unfortunately ECB did not seek an expert opinion nor a match fitness certifciate for Trott and drove him to the edge and then past the edge....to what we all hope and pray is not the terminal end of his career"

and what does this mean- How do you come to such a ludicropus conclusion.

Firstly how do you know they didnt seek an expert or a match fitness cert,

secondly even if they didn't- how have THEY driven him over the edge and then past the edge!!

What proof have you got on any of this?

You can't compare mental illness to a physical injury. You can't send someone for a scan to see how their state of mind is. If Trott saw a professional and said he was fine to tour and he was coping, then you take him on tour. And the ECB should feel no obligation to discuss what went on between them, Trott and a medical professional.

KP_fan has no clue about mental illness and is just speculating.

Mental illness isn't like a physical injury. With a physical injury, you have to give it time to heal.

With mental illness, you get good days and bad days, the ratio of which depends on the severity. So you may feel you can come through it on a good day, only to realise you were horribly wrong on a bad day. And there's set timescale for recovery.

JDizzle wrote:You can't compare mental illness to a physical injury. You can't send someone for a scan to see how their state of mind is. .

There are professionals who run medically approved tests to detrmine the level of mental illness and depression.

And give recommednation on the medical mental condition of that individual...and his fitness level to perform a task.

Duty281 wrote:KP_fan has no clue about mental illness and is just speculating.

Mental illness isn't like a physical injury. With a physical injury, you have to give it time to heal.

With mental illness, you get good days and bad days, the ratio of which depends on the severity. So you may feel you can come through it on a good day, only to realise you were horribly wrong on a bad day. And there's set timescale for recovery.

you are leaving it to Trott and Flower to determine between them what is the level of illness, treatment required and match fitness level.

and I am asking for a medical professional to review, diagnose, recommend treatment and issue match-fitness certificate.

now anyone can judge who does not undertsand what mental illness is

kingraf wrote:CC - I'm not getting at anything, I just wanted to know if anyone knows whether Trott was analysed before the tour. It's not a necessity, of course, But I do believe that a player with a manageable condition should be looked at every now and then. Especially before a big tour.

As to the Rooney parable... if you do take him to the WC, and he does his calf in first match, questions over why you didn't have someone look at his Calf are inevitable.

If the Rooney parable had seen him play through previous big tournies carrying a calf injury and still perform successfully nobody is going to complain at taking him to World Cup (even if injury worsens and rules him out). Someone that important the fans would soonwr see given every chance especially if that player feels fine for the challenge.

One thing is certain the management knew of Trott's problem so it is fair to say they discussed things with him prior to the tour. Remember this is an England set-up not adverse to mental withdrawals ie Trescothick and Yardy so I think it is safe to presume they have psychologists on board.

KP_fan wrote:

Duty281 wrote:KP_fan has no clue about mental illness and is just speculating.

Mental illness isn't like a physical injury. With a physical injury, you have to give it time to heal.

With mental illness, you get good days and bad days, the ratio of which depends on the severity. So you may feel you can come through it on a good day, only to realise you were horribly wrong on a bad day. And there's set timescale for recovery.

you are leaving it to Trott and Flower to determine between them what is the level of illness, treatment required and match fitness level.

and I am asking for a medical professional to review, diagnose, recommend treatment and issue match-fitness certificate.

now anyone can judge who does not undertsand what mental illness is

Well KP-fan, in the past I've had depression, social anxiety and OCD.

I'm perfectly able to tell you how mental illness works, and it isn't like that.

It's on and off mostly, depending on the severity, not like with a physical injury.

KP_fan wrote:

JDizzle wrote:You can't compare mental illness to a physical injury. You can't send someone for a scan to see how their state of mind is. .

There are professionals who run medically approved tests to detrmine the level of mental illness and depression.

And give recommednation on the medical mental condition of that individual...and his fitness level to perform a task.

There's a lot of ifs there and not a lot of fact. What medically approved tests are these? Psychological analysis by a psychiatrist obviously, but what does that entail? Them talking and discussing with Trott how he feels and mentally sound HE feels. It's not like a physical injury, you can't scan him to see what the extent is, you can't just go broken leg; six months out. It is an opinion (a well informed, professional opinion) of an expert, but at the end of the day he can't read Trott's mind. If Trott says he is fine to cope and that he is managing well, then that is the decision that the professional will come to unless presented with other evidence to conclude otherwise.

mystiroakey wrote: .

Firstly how do you know they didnt seek an expert or a match fitness cert,

if they sought a medical experts opinion and a match fitness certifciate was issued...then it is OK

Flower said though he and Trott decided mutually......and that's unbelievably casual and irresponsible for a matter so serious and requiring medicall expertise.....

JDizzle wrote:

KP_fan wrote:

JDizzle wrote:You can't compare mental illness to a physical injury. You can't send someone for a scan to see how their state of mind is. .

There are professionals who run medically approved tests to detrmine the level of mental illness and depression.

And give recommednation on the medical mental condition of that individual...and his fitness level to perform a task.

There's a lot of ifs there and not a lot of fact. What medically approved tests are these? Psychological analysis by a psychiatrist obviously, but what does that entail? Them talking and discussing with Trott how he feels and mentally sound HE feels. It's not like a physical injury, you can't scan him to see what the extent is, you can't just go broken leg; six months out. It is an opinion (a well informed, professional opinion) of an expert, but at the end of the day he can't read Trott's mind. If Trott says he is fine to cope and that he is managing well, then that is the decision that the professional will come to unless presented with other evidence to conclude otherwise.

there are medical experts authorized in the field of mental illness and mental depresion to make those judgements
they have their tests that are approved by medical asociations and recognized internationally.

Flower and Trott talking and deciding mutually is unbelivably irresponsible on a matter as serious as this

KP_Fan
Flower said he and Trott made a mutual decision about Trott going home, not about him actually going on tour. He didn't mention how that decision had been reached IIRC.

KP_fan wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:   .

Firstly how do you know they didnt seek an expert or a match fitness cert,

if they sought a medical experts opinion and a match fitness certifciate was issued...then it is OK

Flower said though he and Trott decided mutually......and that's unbelievably casual and irresponsible for a matter so serious and requiring medicall expertise.....

no you dont really get it mate..

The only person that truly knows is the person themselves.In this case Trott.

Its not casual and its not irresponsible. BUT IT ISNT YOUR OR MY BUSINESS, they dont have to tell anyone any more than that.

right....so let ECB answer the 3 questions I raised earlier in this thread...and stand fully absolved from all blames.

they dont need to answer any of your questions, and even if they answer no to any of your questions it doesn't mean they are to blame at all.,

mystiroakey wrote:they dont need to answer any of your questions, and even if they answer no to any of your questions it doesn't mean they are to blame at all.,

Exactly.

Unless KP_Fan is in close contact with Trott who has expressed being mistreated or mis-handled by the England management then all this nonsense holds no water and merits no discussion.

mystiroakey wrote:they dont need to answer any of your questions, and even if they answer no to any of your questions it doesn't mean they are to blame at all.,

Ha Ha...you think so.....OK

I know so .

Trott has gone home and it is the right call. But to say there should be no questions beyond that, well, is disagreeable at the least. England management have accepted that they were aware of Trott's issues for some time now, yet they choose to go with him on such a stressful tour. Fair enough as I said earlier, as Trott did manage the issues successfully for some time. But at the same time, we shouldn't forget that Marcus Trescothick, a very very crucial player for England at that point, had a stress related issue that resulted in his withdrawal from the tour of India, and then the Ashes downunder. Entirely understandable those withdrawals were though, it is also fair to say that they had a rather adverse impact on the teaml. Then at the time of the 2011 World Cup, England again went through a similar situation with Michael Yardy. The way the Trott situation was handled by the management has to be analized in this context. As already pointed out, the management were in the know of things with Trott. So did they factor that in in the selection process? Trott is their rock at 3. When picking the reserve batsmen, should they have also factored in his condition and opted for a more technically solid top order player like Nick Compton or James Taylor as the reserve batsman in place of Garry Ballance ?
The other question is, as both kingraf and KPF are trying to say, did they take a medical opinion before embarking on a tour like this? Trott hasn't been in the best of form during the summer, on top of that worry, was he in a good frame to undertake a demanding tour like this? A medical opinion may or may not have given them the right idea, they may have taken one after all. But the question and the suggestion is far from being ludicrous

I suppose trying to dig into your perspective on this KP, its clear to me that you think the sport is the blame for his issues.

Its not about the work he does, its actually about him.

Say the England management stopped him from playing due to having this manageable condition before.

Being dropped could have resulted in the same if not a worse situation.

Yes work and pressure brings on stress, but that is something we all haver to learn to cope with, some find it harder than others, but we have to find coping methods.. Trott reached a point where he would rather go home and forget about cricket than play.

Great and get better Troty!

BUt fingers crossed he will be back at some point, and when he does HE WILL NEVER BE CURED!! but he will RATHER play than NOT PLAY.

mystiroakey wrote:I suppose trying to dig into your perspective on this KP, its  clear to me that you think the sport is the blame for his issues.

Its not about the work he does, its actually about him.

Say the England management stopped him from playing due to having this manageable condition before.

Being dropped could have resulted in the same if not a worse situation.

Yes work and pressure brings on stress, but that is something we all haver to learn to cope with, some find it harder than others, but we have to find coping methods.. Trott reached a point where he would rather go home and forget about cricket than play.

Great and get better Troty!

BUt fingers crossed he will be back at some point, and when he does HE WILL NEVER BE CURED!! but he will RATHER play than NOT PLAY.

Mysti, you are right that even if the management had opted to drop Trott, he may or may not have reached a similar point or even a worse one. But there is one key difference, now with his withdrawal, the team and their plans are affected in the middle of a tour. Not saying that a situation like that couldn't have never come up which ever way the management act, but just pointing out that there is a nuanced difference between the 2 scenarios

As for questions about whether a professional opinion about Trott's condition and whether or not he should tour was sought well, the England team have their own Sports Psychologist, so I'd be amazed if his view was not taken into account.

Hoggy_Bear wrote:As for questions about whether a professional opinion about Trott's condition and whether or not he should tour was sought well, the England team have their own Sports Psychologist, so I'd be amazed if his view was not taken into account.

And here is that psychologist who works with the England cricket team:-

http://www.metaphorics.co.uk/Who_we_are/Dr_Mark_Bawden_(CPsychol;_PhD)/

I would suggest that to say he wasn't consulted and offered advice/had input to the decision made would be pretty silly.

It's taken three pages, but my yes/no question has finally been answered.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Hoggy_Bear wrote:As for questions about whether a professional opinion about Trott's condition and whether or not he should tour was sought well, the England team have their own Sports Psychologist, so I'd be amazed if his view was not taken into account.

And here is that psychologist who works with the England cricket team:-

http://www.metaphorics.co.uk/Who_we_are/Dr_Mark_Bawden_(CPsychol;_PhD)/

I would suggest that to say he wasn't consulted and offered advice/had input to the decision made would be pretty silly.

Good after several rounds of posting...finally there is universally consensual acknowldegment....that indeed an expert is required to judge mental illness and give recommendations on mental fitness levels.

and that England team has an inhouse expert like that......which I also agree they would have used in Trott's case.

(actually once those Eng management defending  found that Eng team has an inhouse expert......they agreed to they  part in italics (with a sigh of relief))
 

now the questions that remain are :
1) what was the diagnosis and recomemdnations of Dr. Mark Bawden Re: Jonathan Trott
2) Why was the mental illness medical conditions of Trott hidden from the media and fans unlike the medical conditions of KP and Swann and Prior etal that are well publicized and regular reports issued on their progress?
what were they trying to hide

KP_fan wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Hoggy_Bear wrote:As for questions about whether a professional opinion about Trott's condition and whether or not he should tour was sought well, the England team have their own Sports Psychologist, so I'd be amazed if his view was not taken into account.

And here is that psychologist who works with the England cricket team:-

http://www.metaphorics.co.uk/Who_we_are/Dr_Mark_Bawden_(CPsychol;_PhD)/

I would suggest that to say he wasn't consulted and offered advice/had input to the decision made would be pretty silly.

Good after several rounds of posting...finally there is universally consensual acknowldegment....that indeed an expert is required to judge mental illness and give recommendations on mental fitness levels.

and that England team has an inhouse expert like that......whihc I also agree they would have used in Trott's case.

(actually once those Eng management defending  found that Eng team has an inhouse expert......they agreed to they  part in italics (with a sigh of relief))
 

now the questions that remain are :
1) what was the diagnosis and recomemdnations of Dr. Bawden Re: Jonathan Trott
2) Why was the mental illness medical conditions of Trott hidden from the media and fans unlike the medical conditions of KP and Swann and Prior etal that are well publicized and regular reports issued on their progress?
what were they trying to hide

KP
You're getting a bit ridiculous now.
I'd think it's pretty clear that the pschological diagnosis was consistent with Trott going on tour, and surely even you can see the difference between telling the press that a player has a pulled muscle, and telling them that he has a long-term, ongoing stress related illness.

Hoggy_Bear wrote:

KP_fan wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Hoggy_Bear wrote:As for questions about whether a professional opinion about Trott's condition and whether or not he should tour was sought well, the England team have their own Sports Psychologist, so I'd be amazed if his view was not taken into account.

And here is that psychologist who works with the England cricket team:-

http://www.metaphorics.co.uk/Who_we_are/Dr_Mark_Bawden_(CPsychol;_PhD)/

I would suggest that to say he wasn't consulted and offered advice/had input to the decision made would be pretty silly.

Good after several rounds of posting...finally there is universally consensual acknowldegment....that indeed an expert is required to judge mental illness and give recommendations on mental fitness levels.

and that England team has an inhouse expert like that......whihc I also agree they would have used in Trott's case.

(actually once those Eng management defending  found that Eng team has an inhouse expert......they agreed to they  part in italics (with a sigh of relief))
 

now the questions that remain are :
1) what was the diagnosis and recomemdnations of Dr. Bawden Re: Jonathan Trott
2) Why was the mental illness medical conditions of Trott hidden from the media and fans unlike the medical conditions of KP and Swann and Prior etal that are well publicized and regular reports issued on their progress?
what were they trying to hide

KP
You're getting a bit ridiculous now.
I'd think it's pretty clear that the pschological diagnosis was consistent with Trott going on tour, and surely even you can see the difference between telling the press that a player has a pulled muscle, and telling them that he has a long-term, ongoing stress related illness.

Dear Hoggy_Bear......I cannot see the diffrence...please explain the diffrence
thx

KPF, the question of why they didn't keep the press informed can have a simple answer though the earlier questions were pretty valid. The simple answer is that many sections of the public have rather stigmatized understanding of conditions of mental illness though the situation is changing for the better in recent times, There is no need to publizise something like that if it is not strictly necessary. But As Trott's condition reached a level where he couldn't have continued to play professional cricket at the highest level while managing his condition, the best option was to acknowledge the condition, let him go home, and leave him alone.

Because one is a normal, everyday consequence of being a sportsman while the other is a far more personal and delicate issue which may be worsened by being made public.

I thought there was doctor/patient confidentiality?

I've always maintained that as long as someone had a look at him prior to the Ashes, ECB can say they did their bit.

msp83 wrote:KPF, the question of why they didn't keep the press informed can have a simple answer though the earlier questions were pretty valid. The simple answer is that many sections of the public have rather stigmatized understanding of conditions of mental illness though the situation is changing for the better in recent times, There is no need to publizise something like that if it is not strictly necessary. But As Trott's condition reached a level where he couldn't have continued to play professional cricket at the highest level while managing his condition, the best option was to acknowledge the condition, let him go home, and leave him alone.

Hoggy_Bear on Wed Nov 27, 2013 4:34 pm

Because one is a normal, everyday consequence of being a sportsman while the other is a far more personal and delicate issue which may be worsened by being made public.

I will combine my response to Hoggy and msp both of whom have pretty much answered the same and I agree with their reasoning. I have 2 more points to make now:

1) If it is sensitive and personal and was carried secretly and hidden from the public for the fear of stigma and situation worsening....why reveal it even now ??

the same secrecy could have been extended...if not indfenitely then atleast for some more time. I mean initial purpose of keeping it secret is defeated.
This has hurt Trott even more badly and also the entire team.

2) Secondly Anything that is hidden and secret is more subject to manipulation There is a strong fear and posibility now even more confirmed that while supressing informations not the right decisions were made in the interest of Trott....he may have been pushed more to the edge.

KPF, again we've to go back to the Trescothick situation. When he left India all of a sudden, all that was said was that he had some personal reasons that made him leave. Then the media got after this, the story kept changing and evolving, it was then hinted that he want to see his father inlaw who seemingly met with some accident, that he and his wife had some issues between them and so on and on. That never really helped Trescothick. But ones the real reason came out, there was a lot more understanding. Michael Yardy too was largely left alone as the real reason was promptly provided.